for god's sake can we please primary biden, please

[SGR]

She's OK. She no Dua Lipa though.

Blasphemy.

I do like Dua though. Dua's music is definitely better than Bebe's, I'll give her that.

[Toy Revolver]

And if DeSantis can't sharpen his image and presentation, people are going to view him as the uncharismatic tribute band for Donald Trump.

good points

i'm not going to see queensryche and the melvins when i can see pink floyd and black sabbath

omg that clip of trump making fun how that guy eats his hilarious

but my favorite trump moment was when they were grilling him on putin and he said you don't think we have bad guys too you don't think we have killers too

that was fantastic

[jadis]

I think anti-trans hate is just one symptom of a wider anti-feminist movement by the Christian right. The obsession with fertility and babymaking, the total conformity to antiquated ideas of rigid masculinity and femininity, the anti-abortion and anti-birth control stance, it's all connected and it's all starting to feel very Handmaid's Tale-esque.

There's no shortage of this, in America or elsewhere. But that doesn't explain why so many feminist and queer activists of the older generation (the so-called Second Wave feminists, though this label doesn't do justice to the variety of this phenomenon) are what I'd like to call "skeptical of some of the claims of the trans discourse" and many other would call "terfs". For every Judith Butler there are quite a few Germaine Greers. It's a very diverse phenomenon with multiple viewpoints 

[SGR]

She's OK. She no Dua Lipa though.

I didn't realize how many pictures there are of Dua and Bebe together.

"Pictures of Dua and Bebe"

[close]

[Lexi Darling]

There's no shortage of this, in America or elsewhere. But that doesn't explain why so many feminist and queer activists of the older generation (the so-called Second Wave feminists, though this label doesn't do justice to the variety of this phenomenon) are what I'd like to call "skeptical of some of the claims of the trans discourse" and many other would call "terfs". For every Judith Butler there are quite a few Germaine Greers. It's a very diverse phenomenon with multiple viewpoints 

A lot of TERFs who claim to be feminists still ally with right wing and even openly fascist people. I guess they hate trans people more than they care about that. I consider them useful idiots in a lot of ways. Whether they are aware of it or not, the theocratic fascist right is not on their side. Once they get rid of us, they'll come for the gay people, then the feminists, then the women who show too much ankle.

For the record I think there is a discussion to be had about stuff like sports and prisons. But the minute anyone's desire to protect cis women only spaces turns into support for hormone bans and forced detransition, it's not a discussion anymore.

[Toy Revolver]

There's no shortage of this, in America or elsewhere. But that doesn't explain why so many feminist and queer activists of the older generation (the so-called Second Wave feminists, though this label doesn't do justice to the variety of this phenomenon) are what I'd like to call "skeptical of some of the claims of the trans discourse" and many other would call "terfs". For every Judith Butler there are quite a few Germaine Greers. It's a very diverse phenomenon with multiple viewpoints 

i know you didn't direct this at me but i get where gg is coming from - i agree more directly with jb but i also think feminism needs an exclusive wing as well - now everyone can start to hate me again

i know some people don't get how i can adopt seemingly contradictory ideas but feminism is huge and complex and needs different ideas - if she sees an afab distinction and considers that her tribe good for her

back when i was in college everybody on the left was included in everything and when i said if lesbians (for example) want a space to their own that should be fine but that was frowned on back then

i get why certain feminists are terfs because look what they went through and fought for - i get there's an experience that's uniquely theirs and not trans but it should also probably die with them - what they did was important- they shouldn't feel pressured to compromise it now - the next wave is inclusivity for trans women in almost every female arena - nothing works out perfectly for everyone or even anyone

[jadis]

A lot of TERFs who claim to be feminists still ally with right wing and even openly fascist people. I guess they hate trans people more than they care about that. I consider them useful idiots in a lot of ways. Whether they are aware of it or not, the theocratic fascist right is not on their side. Once they get rid of us, they'll come for the gay people, then the feminists, then the women who show too much ankle.

For the record I think there is a discussion to be had about stuff like sports and prisons. But the minute anyone's desire to protect cis women only spaces turns into support for hormone bans and forced detransition, it's not a discussion anymore.

That may be so, I wouldn't know. But this description couldn't be further from those feminist and queer academics I happen to know who are critical of the recent developments for various reasons.

Just one example: a 60 something gay historian I'm friends with has a friend who was the first surgeon to perform transition operations on children in the state of NY. This doctor said that he stopped performing this procedure because he's come to perceive a pattern of latent homophobia of the parents who brought their young sons to him. The underlying train of thought, he said, is that "if our son gonna be a sissy, let him just be a woman and get this over with..." Something like that.

There are countless perspectives which this "they're all fascists" narrative erases.

[Toy Revolver]

A lot of TERFs who claim to be feminists still ally with right wing and even openly fascist people.

i'm not trying to challenge you but can you name which terf and which fascist

the minute anyone's desire to protect cis women only spaces turns into support for hormone bans and forced detransition, it's not a discussion anymore

yeah i have heard the hormone ban for children heralded by people who probably identify as feminists but i never heard one go so far as to say "and that's why i'm endorsing desantis"

it is a deal breaker though, yeah, it's like saying i love gays that's why i'm offering conversion therapy- like those super bowl ad people

yeah - i gotta be sure i distance myself from that

[Lexi Darling]

I don't think every TERF has fascist intentions, no. I know a lot of them are coming at it from the angle that Toy Revolver posted.

I think a lot of them just buy into the idea that biological sex somehow defines anything about a person. As if there were a universal experience for literally half the population. Ironically they are treating trans women the way misogynist men treat them. If you're pro state mandated discrimination based on the way one was born, you're not much of a feminist IMO. Feminism should help everyone.

And to Revolver, I can gather some more stuff later, but one example is Queen TERF herself, JK Rowling, supporting and praising self proclaimed theocratic fascist Matt Walsh.

Edit: Perhaps we could move the trans stuff to its own thread. This thread should be for discussion of our lord and savior, the mighty Dark Brandon.

[Toy Revolver]

but a shared belief that women exist as a biological class (and water's wet and the moon's not made of cheese) does not an ally make. I believe women are susceptible to certain harms and have specific needs and that feminism is necessary to secure and protect our rights. 3/4

Walsh believes feminism is 'rotten' and his default appears to be denigrating women with whom he disagrees. He's no more on my side than the 'shut up or we'll bomb you' charmers who cloak their misogyny in a pretty pink and blue flag. 4/4

- jk rowling (just taken ofc twitter)

i feel like that's sort of like saying if i say well desantis was right about that trans swimmer that means i support desantis

(idk much about that story though)

[Lexi Darling]

- jk rowling (just taken ofc twitter)

i feel like that's sort of like saying if i say well desantis was right about that trans swimmer that means i support desantis

(idk much about that story though)

I don't really know that much either but I know she praised him in the past.

I agree with a lot of what you have said in this thread, just so you know. I admit I am a bit paranoid over this stuff and I think I have a right to be wary, I can only hope that things aren't as hopeless as I perceive them. Thank you for being an ally.

[Nimbly9]

Charisma might not be a big deal when you're running for governor, but as a national candidate for President, you'll have a difficult time getting people to go out and vote for you without it. And if DeSantis can't sharpen his image and presentation, people are going to view him as the uncharismatic tribute band for Donald Trump. And not many are going to want to go out and vote for the tribute band when they could instead see the original act.

I don't think it's possible to get that high up without "some" kind of charisma.  Hell, even Jeb Bush did it. But I agree that traditional tactics don't work against Trump.  On the current playing field, I see maybe Tim Scott or Vivek putting up a decent fight but DeSantis has been on a losing streak recently poll-wise with Disney so I wonder if he's even going to run at all at this point.

i'm not going to see queensryche and the melvins when i can see pink floyd and black sabbath

Bruh, Queensryche are nothing like Pink Floyd.  They had some commercial success with one Floyd-esque tune in 1990, Silent Lucidity, and otherwise are a top-tier metal band with some cool prog elements.  Rage For Order is a contender for the best album of 1986.  Operation Mindcrime is an untouchable classic too.

[Toy Revolver]

i've given them multiple chances but i do respect your opinion

[Trollheart]

I'd just like to say that I think I speak for everyone when I say we're all Mrs. Waffles's allies here. And her friends. Just thought that might be important to say.

And now, I go back to whatever it is I do!

[jimmy jazz]

Mrs. Waffles has a lot of objectivity and seems very tolerant of other people's opinions and I respect that 🤝