How are we doing? Post your criticism here.

[jadis]

It's pretty insulting to insinuate that people's reasons for speaking out against racism are because they want to be "goody good".

It's a matter of power and knowledge: I'm better than your mayo ass, I'm more aware of my privilege, I know the buzzwords, you're the hick.

Power is an interesting thing though. It's not just about how you position yourself within a discourse to get one over others, but how a discourse positions you and shapes who you are. The anti-racist warriors on Twitter who spout a mixture of activist slogans and HR speak are obviously passionately sincere and completely identify with the role. That's who they are, that's the shape they've been molded into by the social pressures and word viruses they were exposed to. 

We're all shaped by social pressures and word viruses. Molded by the discourse. Once you realize it you can maybe opt out of some of the more banal ones.

[Toy Revolver]

And I still don't know what you mean by the "orthodoxy", like the orthodoxy of trying one's best to be polite and considerate?

again that's another statement (well, question) that implies liberals have a monopoly on those virtues - people resent that arrogance

[Janszoon]

It's a matter of power and knowledge: I'm better than your mayo ass, I'm more aware of my privilege, I know the buzzwords, you're the hick.

Power is an interesting thing though. It's not just about how you position yourself within a discourse to get one over others, but how a discourse positions you and shapes who you are. The anti-racist warriors on Twitter who spout a mixture of activist slogans and HR speak are obviously passionately sincere and completely identify with the role. That's who they are, that's the shape they've been molded into by the social pressures and word viruses they were exposed to. 

We're all shaped by social pressures and word viruses. Molded by the discourse. Once you realize it you can maybe opt out of some of the more banal ones.

Why are so being so antagonistic about what amounts to just being considerate of other people? I really don't get it.

[Lexi Darling]

again that's another statement (well, question) that implies liberals have a monopoly on those virtues - people resent that arrogance

I don't think I was implying that liberals had a monopoly on it. I don't know how you got that from what I said.

I think common courtesy and politeness should be a virtue we should all strive for. I am not perfect, nobody is, but I don't think it's arrogant to try my best.

There are a lot of people who are just genuinely trying to be kind and understanding of what words can be hurtful. I don't think most of them are doing so just to stroke "the supremacy of their orthodoxy" or whatever.

[SGR]

I'd agree with Jimmy Jazz, it would be useful if Jansz posted examples (they don't need to have the username in the quotes). Otherwise, what are we really arguing about here? Whether or not liberals in the US are smug in general?

[Lexi Darling]

Speaking for myself, I was more just taking issue with TR and Jadis responding to Janszoon voicing his opinion by basically saying "typical liberal trying to be sensitive to the topic of racism, those liberals think they're better than everyone". I have no stake in whether or not any racism has been posted, I was just bothered by that response.

I agree that this tangent is not productive, and I would like to politely excuse myself from that argument.

[Janszoon]

I'd agree with Jimmy Jazz, it would be useful if Jansz posted examples (they don't need to have the username in the quotes). Otherwise, what are we really arguing about here? Whether or not liberals in the US are smug in general?

I've been trying to avoid calling out specific people because I think people looking the other way is as big an issue as the racism-related posts. I'm not really sure what "liberals in US are smug" has to do with anything.

[SGR]

I've been trying to avoid calling out specific people because I think people looking the other way is as big an issue as the racism-related posts. I'm not really sure what "liberals in US are smug" has to do with anything.

Fair enough. I think the fact that you've brought it up as a concern in a general sense is useful as it will prime those reading to look out for it. Per the 'liberals in US are smug', I'm just referring to the discourse that's happening here since your post that mentioned racism, e.g. TR's last post:

again that's another statement (well, question) that implies liberals have a monopoly on those virtues - people resent that arrogance

I was just trying to delineate between what you originally said that served as the catalyst for this discussion vs. what the discussion has become.

[Guybrush]

then they should feel at home here then because there isn't even remote hostility towards blacks here and never has been unless we count your lack of respect for their ability to spot racism which is typical of northern liberals who seem to think black people need their protection under all circumstances like a mother that makes her children carry umbrellas on sunny days

white liberals are worse than catholics with their unbending belief in the supremacy of their orthodoxy

it's really incredible

it's actually a very narrow demographic intellectually and politically

it's the belief that they feel they can unequivocally define what actually is racist is the problem

even your statement there implies if they say it's racist then it's racist

most of them have never even lived as a minority overseas or even in a majority non-white neighborhood so getting their lectures on race gets really tiresome but it's their complete confidence that no alternative or exceptions ever apply to their rules is disturbing

like jadis says it's as if they're checking a manual

When I see posts like these, I see this: Jansz brings up something you don't agree with. You then assign a label to him, identifying him as a member of a group (northern liberals) which you seem to know all about and whose arguments are immediately discredited and idiotic. Notice how you've done this before Jansz has really gotten a chance to explain why or what it is that is racist.

In doing this, I think you run a huge risk of making some strawman accusations because you're not actually arguing against any arguments (only imagined ones) because they haven't even been put towards you.

I see prejudice and appeals to emotion rather than rationality. I see ad hominem attacks. I see attempts at suppression techniques rather than rational, respectful discourse.

I realize the US is steeped in tribalism at the moment, but I really don't want that on our forums. You and Jansz are in the same tribe here. Please treat people as individuals and not as representatives for groups. Until people explain their position to you, you don't actually know what it is.

You're a teacher with lots of interesting ideas and real life experiences. I welcome you to draw upon that and to engage in a proper discussion on racism and morals. I would like that. But none of the above nonsense, please.

[Toy Revolver]

and there it is

the classic mod move i mentioned at the get and have never not seen

when the argument is lost the threat to censor or ban comes in

never fucking fails

of course you have nothing to say about his backhanded way of calling me racist as if he was even possibly talking about anyone else

i see attempts at suppression techniques

But none of the above nonsense, please.

that's fucking rich lol

[Guybrush]

Now you're getting hyperbolic.

Just try to have a discussion without the animosity and tribalism, please?

[Marie Monday]

and there it is

the classic mod move i mentioned at the get and have never not seen

when the argument is lost the threat to censor or ban comes in

never fucking fails

of course you have nothing to say about his backhanded way of calling me racist as if he was even possibly talking about anyone else

that's fucking rich lol

that's not at all what's happening. Try to read his post in good faith. Criticism is not always meant as an attack to get hostile about

[Rubber Soul]

Guybrush has a point about American tribalism (and I guess you can count me as a Northern liberal too). It isn't anything new, really. It actually dates back to the founding of our country.

But it has certainly gotten out of hand and it is to no surprise to see it spilled over into here. It's a poison that simply won't go away. I'm not sure where TR is on the political spectrum since he plays liberal on one hand and more of a Libertarian on the other. I don't think you can be both when it comes to race. A liberal is going to want to do something about rogue police beating up minorities while Libertarians are going to complain when Liberals talk about race in general.

Anyway, the point is we all think differently and we each have our own political compass. I'm not a knee-jerk liberal myself (I'm pro choice for example but I can see the morality of ending the life cycle of a fetus). So maybe instead of throwing stones at each other, we should all seek for common ground where we can?

[jimmy jazz]

Can we extend the time limit to edit posts before it leaves a notification that you edited it to about 5 minutes?

You've got to be lightning quick atm so it can't be longer than about 10 seconds.

Any word on this?

[Guybrush]

5 minutes seems a bit much

But how about we double it to 180 secs = 3 minutes?