cis male is a slur

[degrassi.knoll]

I'm mostly just trying to impress upon you that no one here is actively against you or the experience of trans-ness - I just feel like I can relate to the urge to defend an entire community and know how depleting it can be, and in retrospect I see a lot of ways in which I have tendencies to react to my own inner workings rather than the topic objectively at hand. It's difficult to remove yourself from something that affects you on literally every level - I get that - I guess just wanted to express that you can give yourself a break, and you don't need to represent anyone but yourself here. I personally am more interested in hearing individual experiences than running through the same tired talking points at large. Like I'm certainly not saying this is a safe place lol, but generally I don't think you need to worry about defending tran-ness in general here. You know what I mean?

[Guybrush]

Yet somehow these issues end up being women's problems. The one aperçu I love in Marty's book (and which the Tablet article doesn't mention) is that gender is really all about women. Every time we're out to transgress, subvert, redefine etc the paradigm of the relations between the sexes, it's woman's place in the world that's being called into question or redefined. For good or for ill. The last thing this entails is the braindead conservative position that we should stop questioning our gender mores, turn the clock back and settle for (or rather violently enforce) the way things were in the good old times. It means being more rather than less critical.     

What you say is "we'll find a solution, logistics is not the issue." What if, though, the problems that arise in the real world esp with regard to women are a more reliable indicator of what the issue actually is? 

There are no weight classes in swimming. There are hardly any female swimmers the size of Lia Thomas and it's also a matter of muscle density, not just size. Most importantly, no one impinges on Lia Thomas's freedom to compete with other swimmers who have the same anatomy. Surely in sports anatomy is of the essence? What is then this "freedom" someone like Lia Thomas is seeking? Freedom to do what exactly? I'm not suggesting she's a sexual predator btw, there's no evidence for that. But the narcissistic entitlement to invade women's spaces dripping from her every word is, in my view, deeply revealing of what swaths of the M to F crowd are really about, which is to say an aggressive men's rights movement.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm sure they can make up as many definitions as they want, but what would the effects be? When you make up definitions out of thin air and then enforce them in material reality, the consequences tend to be wild.

I don't really know Lia Tomas or what she says, nor exactly what you mean by wild consequences, though I'm not saying you're wrong.

What I mean, for clarity, is that sports can say - just as an example - that Lia Tomas has too much testosterone to compete in the women's league. I'm not saying that's practical or good, but they can make their own definitions to try and solve problems in terms of fairness.

That's a better way to handle the problem rather than telling Lia Tomas and other MTF persons that they can't or shouldn't identify as women.

So I'm just very simple and practically minded. Most people are not involved in sports, so let's not solve sports' problems by limiting the freedom and happiness of that huge majority of people that are not professional athletes.

About women being under attack, I do understand what you mean as women are generally much more intimidated by men than vice versa. But there's also the matter of helping trans people whose happiness we should all be interested in. I think in many cases, problems are basically logistical or have simple practical solutions and addressing that can make most people a little happier.

Not specifically to Jadis, but about the biology of trans people, I do think there have always been people who felt trapped in the wrong sex. There were cave women and cave men who felt this way. A minority of them were possibly XXY males or other sorts of unusual chromosomal types, but probably just a minority. I think it's more likely a mix between possibly some genetic components and the prenatal environment, such as hormones.

In addition to that group, it makes sense to me that you will also have  some people who don't have a trans biology, but are unhappy with their sex or confused. I think being simply confused to the point where you demand medical treatment at a very young sounds like a very small minority, but it makes sense to have some measures to protect them f.ex. if we're unsure if drugs might harm them.

As someone who often subscribe to utilitarianism, I'm admittedly probably a bore. I just think - without letting prejudice, normatives or preconceived notions getting in the way - how do we increase the quality of life for more people and for longer time spans?

[jadis]

The right of people to identify as whatever they want is as basic and unnegotiable in a liberal democracy as one's right to say "I will not be compelled to express an opinion on X." 

But someone's self-identification cannot be the basis for legal classifications that impact us all. This is where it stops being someone's private matter. The chain of events that led to Lia Thomas's cock being unleashed in the girls' changing room was triggered by amending a legal classification to one based on how people self-ID rather than what they were born as. This is a problem that's not confined to professional sports. It will arise in every office or public building erected after the women's entry into the job market during the industrial revolution, when we cottoned on to the reality that women need their own spaces where men are barred from. In every prison. 

A great example of logistical adjustments helping solve problems is the (occasional) addition of accessible toilets for the disabled. But the problem of someone like Lia Thomas seeking access to female-only spaces is of a different nature.

I'm harping on Lia Thomas's cock and will keep doing so because it's a brilliant example that goes straight to the heart of the matter. The way she speaks is very instructive too btw. In addition to the bit I already quoted about being a woman just like her teammates, see her response to the statement "Lia is a human being who deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. But it's not transphobic to say I disagree with where she's swimming":

That argument is disingenuous to Thomas. There is no such thing as half-support: Either you back her fully as a woman or you don't. "The very simple answer is that I'm not a man," she says. "I'm a woman, so I belong on the women's team. Trans people deserve that same respect every other athlete gets."

In other words, this is not about finding a workable compromise that everyone can live with, which is how things are done in society. It's about something else, whatever you name it. I will say though that this tone is exactly what I meant apropos of male entitlement. "I deserve respect, full support, and access to the girls' locker room."

Part of the problem is that compassion and the desire to make everybody's lives better is NOT, in liberal circles, typically invoked apropos the feelings of the female swimmers who were exposed to Lia Thomas's cock. They did not feel that their lives were made better by the inclusion of Lia Thomas into their space.

[Guybrush]

The right of people to identify as whatever they want is as basic and unnegotiable in a liberal democracy as one's right to say "I will not be compelled to express an opinion on X." 

But someone's self-identification cannot be the basis for legal classifications that impact us all.

Maybe. I haven't thought too hard on it, but am willing to try. Which arenas / spaces are being claimed or invaded?

The ones I can think of:

• Women's sports
• Men's sports
• Women's locker rooms
• Men's locker rooms
• Women's toilets
• Men's toilets

What else is there?

[jadis]

Let me chalk off half your list: men's sports, men's locker rooms and men's toilets will not be meaningfully impacted by any of this (in fact, making all of these open to whoever seems to me like a good idea).

Women's prison will, and are.

Healthcare: there are women who feel very strongly that intimate examinations and procedures on them should be carried out by other women. Having this standard can get you labeled as a bigot in today's climate.

Sleeping quarters in educational institutions. Like dorms and whatever it's called in boarding schools. Also, someone I know is offering a course centered around a study trip to Rome. At the hotel they will stay in, there will be four students sharing a room.

I mean, toilets alone is a huge part of our lives. We have to piss and shit all the fucking time.

[Lucem Ferre]

I didn't post a picture of JWB I posted a picture of the guy in his pfp, Sam Hyde, doing a Nazi solute with another Nazi.

[Guybrush]

Let me chalk off half your list: men's sports, men's locker rooms and men's toilets will not be meaningfully impacted by any of this (in fact, making all of these open to whoever seems to me like a good idea).

Women's prison will, and are.

Healthcare: there are women who feel very strongly that intimate examinations and procedures on them should be carried out by other women. Having this standard can get you labeled as a bigot in today's climate.

Sleeping quarters in educational institutions. Like dorms and whatever it's called in boarding schools. Also, someone I know is offering a course centered around a study trip to Rome. At the hotel they will stay in, there will be four students sharing a room.

I mean, toilets alone is a huge part of our lives. We have to piss and shit all the fucking time.

I feel like you may be exacerbating some of these problems.

Like we don't typically piss and shit all the time in public restrooms. I mostly do it at home. At work, toilets are a single toilet behind a door for one person at a time. The public restrooms I visit the most are in airports, I believe.

Furthermore, trans people are relatively rare and shouldn't bother too many women. What I mean is it's not like public restrooms will fill up with trans people, even if they're included. And you also seem to forget that many women will welcome trans women in public restrooms. They won't be considered a nuisance to everyone.

About gynecologists. Women can change doctors (at least here) and if you can't trust a male gynecologist, I do feel like in some cases, that's a personal problem and shouldn't necessarily be the gynecologist's problem.

Overall, I assume the threat a trans woman represents to a woman will, on average, be many times less the average threat posed by a heterosexual cis male.

What's the harm a trans woman would inflict on others throughout her life by inclusion to restrooms and dormitories compared to the benefits to that trans person's life from being included?

As stated before, I think practical solutions can help significantly in maximizing benefits and minimizing harm.

I also do think there are significant, but less tangible benefits to a more liberal society, such as hopefully a greater acceptance for expressions of individuality and a further moving away from oppressive, religious values and dogma.

Do you feel like denying trans women's inclusion is best for overall happiness? Or what is your end goal / want for society's treatment of trans people?

[Lucem Ferre]

I linked an article proving that being trans isn't just an identity you choose yet he still uses language insinuating that it is.


Also, trans women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted if you force them to use men's bathrooms than a cis woman by a trans woman or the nefarious myth of the cis male pretending to be trans to infiltrate the bathrooms.

So basically he's putting the comfort of cis transphobes over the safety of trans people. Totally not bigoted, totally not sea lioning, totally not in bad faith.

Also very weird that trans men are always left out of the conversation.

[DJChameleon]

Let me chalk off half your list: men's sports, men's locker rooms and men's toilets will not be meaningfully impacted by any of this (in fact, making all of these open to whoever seems to me like a good idea).

Women's prison will, and are.

Healthcare: there are women who feel very strongly that intimate examinations and procedures on them should be carried out by other women. Having this standard can get you labeled as a bigot in today's climate.

Sleeping quarters in educational institutions. Like dorms and whatever it's called in boarding schools. Also, someone I know is offering a course centered around a study trip to Rome. At the hotel they will stay in, there will be four students sharing a room.

I mean, toilets alone is a huge part of our lives. We have to piss and shit all the fucking time.

I always thought the public bathrooms argument was weak as fuck. Transwomen have been using women's bathrooms forever and no one has been the wiser because in women's bathrooms there are fucking stalls. You go take care of your business inside of a personal stall and that's it. Everyone has to use the bathroom so I don't know why this is something people thing is a great fucking argument.

Also my public library did something cool. They have all inclusive bathrooms. Men/women can use the same bathroom they have a sign advising that you lock the door once you enter knowing that no one is inside after you knock. Men, women and trans individuals all use the same bathroom space not at the same time since you can lock the door but it's still a cool progressive thing to do. Prior to this it was only listed as male/female to separate the two. I'm so used to going to the right one because in the past when I worked at the library that was the male one but if it's locked I just hop over to the left one instead.

[Lexi Darling]

Yup. You all know what I look like, you think I'd feel safe if I had to use the men's bathroom at some dingy gas station on a road trip? Get the heck outta here lol.

And this is anecdotal, and it's my liberal city privilege speaking I'd imagine, but I've been using women's bathrooms for over a decade and I've had way more positive interactions with cis women in there than negative ones.

[Lucem Ferre]

Imagine forcing Buck Angel to use the women's bathroom.

 

[DJChameleon]

Another thing about cis women that are scared of trans women using the bathroom because they might get raped. It's not the transwomen that you have to be afraid of. You just have to be afraid of rapists! Rapists are not going to stop doing what they are doing because of a silly little gender sign on the door.

[jadis]

Tore, first of all, not all of us live in Norway. It's a fucking jungle out there.

More importantly, there's a tacit assumption that it's women who should make compromises, to be more accommodating. What's more patriarchal than that?

Overall, I assume the threat a trans woman represents to a woman will, on average, be many times less the average threat posed by a heterosexual cis male.

Are we talking post-op or bepenised?

Furthermore, trans people are relatively rare and shouldn't bother too many women.

Once gaining access to the girls' locker rooms through self-ID alone becomes a universal reality, expect every last incel and every single weird uncle in the US of A to self-ID as a woman. 

What's the harm a trans woman would inflict on others throughout her life by inclusion to restrooms and dormitories compared to the benefits to that trans person's life from being included?

Awful. Dripping with progressivism of the ideological, reality-denying kind. What's the harm of the inclusion of biological men in those spaces where women are supposed to be free from the male gaze and penis? Creating a situation where a teenage boy could have access to a girls' bedroom is completely insane.

Do you feel like denying trans women's inclusion is best for overall happiness? Or what is your end goal / want for society's treatment of trans people?

There can hardly be an "end goal" in any field with many moving parts. One can rather have strategic objectives. Those that seem to me non-negotiable are maintaining women-only spaces and reining in the medicalization of children. No less important is avoiding an all-out backlash against gay and lesbian rights (beyond the homophobic hard right, that is), which the current abuses of "gender theory" seem to invite.

[Guybrush]

Jadis, there's a certain perspective that you're clinging on to, but it seems contrived to me. For example - in order to maintain it, you seem to have to exaggerate problems for certain people (cis women) while diminishing or rather ignoring the troubles of others (trans women).

I was hoping an answer to my last question would provide some insight into your inner workings on the subject, but not so. Overall, I get the impression there's some deep rooted values in you or something that require accommodation through some mental gymnastics.

I'm sorry if that's a complete strawman fabrication. It's just the impression I get. I'd love it if you'd convince me I'm wrong.

[Lucem Ferre]

The troubling part is there is absolutely no evidence proving these things are an issue. Plenty of evidence suggesting forcing trans women to use male bathrooms will result in sexual assault, though.

So the idea that transphobic cis women shouldn't have to sacrifice their comfort to prevent sexual assault is just dumb.

And if you think it's patriarchal to have cis women let trans women in their bathrooms it's because you don't see trans women as women.