cis male is a slur

[jadis]

Well I was trying to conceal it but it's mask off now, you're on to my deep rooted Catholicism (typical of a guy born in the Soviet Union and specializing in the fundamentalist Christianity espoused by Michel Foucault)

You're an intelligent guy and I like you but I despise the Nordic brand of well-meaning liberal do-goodery. For instance, if you guys had your way every single Israeli would've been slaughtered by an Islamist mob. If I have any ideological convictions it's that the road to hell if paved with the good intentions of various hommes de bien. 

Calling guys with dicks "women" is an example of insane mental gymnastics but there's cultural conditioning that renders you oblivious to it.

Another thing you don't appreciate is that the medicalization of gender identity in America is an insanely profitable business. 

[Lucem Ferre]

 

My intuition is 2nd to none.

[Lexi Darling]

"Cultural conditioning" you mean like religion? I don't mean this as a roast or an attack on your faith, but it feels like you're trying to say that you can see through the "cultural" elements that we're oblivious to, but religion is culture. What makes your cultural conditioning more valid than ours?

And frankly it's not an excuse for transphobia either. My partner was raised Christian and still identified as such when we started dating. He never had any problem with me being trans.

[Guybrush]

I appreciate your candor, @jadis , and like you too even if you have a conservative streak.

And I don't disagree that calling biological males women is an example of mental gymnastics (though one I'm generally willing to do). In the future, maybe there will be a treatment that can actually turn a biological male into a biological woman or vice versa.

My own secret value that I haven't yet voiced is that I generally wish we placed less expectations on sex/gender and either think the whole biz isn't so important or just be more open to the fact that some men wear dresses and some women have big arms and love to tinker with car engines. But I'm humble to the fact that this view is unlikely to help anyone, may be irrelevant and is pulled out of the arse of someone (me) who ofc never really felt trans people's struggle firsthand.

[jadis]

Wow. You think you know how surreally dumb the average American is but no, you have no idea. Really wasn't trying to fool anyone with that low-effort stab at sarcasm.

In awe.

[jadis]

My own secret value that I haven't yet voiced is that I generally wish we placed less expectations on sex/gender and either think the whole biz isn't so important or just be more open to the fact that some men wear dresses and some women have big arms and love to tinker with car engines.

Yes! If there's one thing that reinforces outdated gender stereotypes it's the idea that if a little boy has no interest in sports there is a problem the solution to which involves hormones and surgery. I told this story about five times on this forum, but,

a 60 something gay historian I'm friends with has a friend who was the first surgeon to perform transition operations on children in the state of NY. This doctor said that he stopped performing this procedure because he's come to perceive a pattern of latent homophobia of the parents who brought their young sons to him. The underlying train of thought, he said, is that "if our son gonna be a sissy, let him just be a woman and get this over with..."

Or, if someone is shall we say a butch dyke, then she was born in the wrong body and should be subjected to medicalization. Not saying it as a gotcha or trying to invert someone's arguments against me, but I genuinely see this as bigotry.

Part of my problem with the MtF thing is the minstrelsy. Their performance of femininity is rarely anything but the most annoying and offensive stereotypes real women would rather move away from. 

[degrassi.knoll]

If we're up for voicing our biases, I'm all for asserting that trans women are women, but I definitely have some internalized and undefined feelings about trans women that insist they have the same lived experience as ciswomen. Even though I have no trouble accepting that you (general) have *always* been a woman internally, it doesn't negate the time spent benefiting from living the male experience. Transwomen and ciswomen have a lot of crossover in terms of shared experiences, but it irks me when people refuse to say that the differences are valid. This is not a new idea, of course, but one that comes up a lot.

Also for the record I think jadis is speaking about identity not as a modifier in terms of it not being significant - I think it's moreso that he's saying he wants to move past that entire part of the conversation - because it is already known/accepted that identity is not a choice and it wastes time to virtue signal about it.

[Lexi Darling]

Most trans women I know do go through a phase of performative femininity early in transition as a defense against being misgendered and as a way to "prove their womanhood" to skeptical onlookers. But a lot of them settle into a more neutral style as they get further into transition and more comfortable being themselves.

I'm obviously an outlier on that, I dressed like an androgynous emo punk for over a decade before I switched my style up to be more hyper femme. That wasn't because I think my current style is emblematic of womanhood as a whole, I just like vintage glamour and my partner and I like having our little fun aesthetic. There are some things we do just because we like it.

It's frustrating because if we're not feminine enough, we're just men faking it. If we're too feminine, we're putting on a minstrel show. We can't win.

[Lexi Darling]

If we're up for voicing our biases, I'm all for asserting that trans women are women, but I definitely have some internalized and undefined feelings about trans women that insist they have the same lived experience as ciswomen. Even though I have no trouble accepting that you (general) have *always* been a woman internally, it doesn't negate the time spent benefiting from living the male experience. Transwomen and ciswomen have a lot of crossover in terms of shared experiences, but it irks me when people refuse to say that the differences are valid. This is not a new idea, of course, but one that comes up a lot.

Also for the record I think jadis is speaking about identity not as a modifier in terms of it not being significant - I think it's moreso that he's saying he wants to move past that entire part of the conversation - because it is already known/accepted that identity is not a choice and it wastes time to virtue signal about it.

I actually completely agree with this, which is why I personally don't try to assert my experience as being "the female experience". And of course I was socialized for 15 years under the idea that I was a boy, so saying there are no ingrained differences between cis and trans women socially or mentally is not something I agree with either.

But I also don't think there is necessarily a completely universal "female experience" across every single culture either. As it stands though I totally get you on this and I don't claim to speak for cis women on these issues. I don't have room to talk on some of them and I don't demand to.

[Nimbly9]

And I don't disagree that calling biological males women is an example of mental gymnastics (though one I'm generally willing to do). In the future, maybe there will be a treatment that can actually turn a biological male into a biological woman or vice versa.

It is certainly possible, but I think if we understood human biology to that extent, hospitals and medical professionals would be focusing on analyzing fetuses at key prenatal stages to eliminate anything that would be considered "abnormal" in their genetic code since parents will be very proactive about that kinda thing if it is possible to do.  "Design your kid" and all that jazz.

That would cover everything from pre-cancer factors to repairing cell damage to unusual chromosome alignments.  With the way AI is going, they'll be able to analyze all these factors in an instant once they scan someone and then use something similar to CRISPR to make modifications.

One sci-fi series that showcased a more likely kind of future as far as biological sex/gender subject matter is concerned was Altered Carbon, where people are regularly transferring themselves between bodies. You could even grow a female version of yourself (genetically) in a lab somewhere and transfer your consciousness into it.

[Guybrush]

It is certainly possible, but I think if we understood human biology to that extent, hospitals and medical professionals would be focusing on analyzing fetuses at key prenatal stages to eliminate anything that would be considered "abnormal" in their genetic code since parents will be very proactive about that kinda thing if it possible to do it.  "Design your kid" and all that jazz.

That would cover everything from pre-cancer factors to repairing cell damage to unusual chromosome alignments.  With the way AI is going, they'll be able to analyze all these factors in an instant once they scan someone and then use something similar to CRISPR to make modifications.

One sci-fi series that showcased a more likely kind of future as far as biological sex/gender subject matter is concerned was Altered Carbon, where people are regularly transferring themselves between bodies. You could even grow a female version of yourself (genetically) in a lab somewhere and transfer your consciousness into it.

Yes, as it necessitates the exclusion/inclusion of whole X or Y chromosomes, it sounds well beyond the scope of CRISPR and more like something you do to a stem cell before growing it into a fetus, but.. if we're talking sci-fi, who knows what they'll come up with eventually.

[Jwb]

 

I didn't post a picture of JWB I posted a picture of the guy in his pfp, Sam Hyde, doing a Nazi solute with another Nazi.

[Jwb]

It is certainly possible, but I think if we understood human biology to that extent, hospitals and medical professionals would be focusing on analyzing fetuses at key prenatal stages to eliminate anything that would be considered "abnormal" in their genetic code since parents will be very proactive about that kinda thing if it is possible to do.  "Design your kid" and all that jazz.

That would cover everything from pre-cancer factors to repairing cell damage to unusual chromosome alignments.  With the way AI is going, they'll be able to analyze all these factors in an instant once they scan someone and then use something similar to CRISPR to make modifications.

One sci-fi series that showcased a more likely kind of future as far as biological sex/gender subject matter is concerned was Altered Carbon, where people are regularly transferring themselves between bodies. You could even grow a female version of yourself (genetically) in a lab somewhere and transfer your consciousness into it.

Yes, as it necessitates the exclusion/inclusion of whole X or Y chromosomes, it sounds well beyond the scope of CRISPR and more like something you do to a stem cell before growing it into a fetus, but.. if we're talking sci-fi, who knows what they'll come up with eventually.

none of this is going to happen

We're going to try to create AI to unlock these really complicated problems for us and instead they'll just fuck us square in the ass like the born suckers that we truly are

Only species on earth to design our own replacements.   

[Guybrush]

I didn't post a picture of JWB I posted a picture of the guy in his pfp, Sam Hyde, doing a Nazi solute with another Nazi.

Oops, didn't catch this.

Sorry Lucem, that was my bad then.

(I removed his post with a photo)

[Marie Monday]

I agree that when it comes to legislation things should be considered carefully and the unwillingness of some trans people and allies (not nearly all of them) to do that is not helpful. But neither is the attitude of many people who are critical about all this. For instance, you can discuss these things without sliding in remarks about 'real' women or the idea of a woman with a penis being ridiculous, which is also unhelpful, uncalled for, and just shows underlying irrational bias.
Then there is the old Women's Safety argument, which always focuses on the safety of cis women (as some people here have pointed out). I'm not saying this should not be considered, just that it should be done so on another basis than implicitly drawing the line of 'women' at that point, which is what usually happens.

Being someone who is gender nonconforming, I've had my worries about the implications of the gender developments, but I think they're doing for more good than harm. That debate gets soured by assumptions of what men or women are supposed to be, on both sides