cis male is a slur

[Marie Monday]

I lol'd

[Jwb]

I used the term "social contagion" in the sense that conservatives use it. They think trans identity is a youth trend among "woke leftists" and not a legitimate feeling and identity. Of course it is a social and cultural thing, I do not believe in innate masculine or feminine identity independent of culture either. But gender dysphoria, regardless of the root cause, is still a thing that manifests in people on its own, almost certainly against their own will, as if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be trans and open themselves up to a lifetime of the shit I've been through.

There are also multiple schools of thought on this mind you, not all trans people are agreed as we are not a monolith. Some think anyone should be able to identify as any gender in any situation, even if they do not have dysphoria, without pursuing medical transition or presenting a differently gendered appearance, and some think you need to have dysphoria and physically transition to be truly trans. My thoughts on that are... complex, and not really relevant to this topic.

Personally I do not think I have an innate "feminine essence", I transitioned because I felt intense dysphoria and knew being in a culturally female identity was what felt right and natural. But of course that is not independent of culture, because everything (aside from genitalia and body shape) that we perceive as "masculine" or "feminine" is culture and therefore not innate. But that culture is inescapable and it does lead to the very real diagnosable mental phenomenon of dysphoria manifesting in people.

So yes, I agree that trans identity is cultural. But that does not make it less legitimate.

Not trynna start shit but just pointing out you seemed pretty open to the idea that detransitioners might be socially influenced in their decision, yet you seem completely incredulous that social influence could ever work in the opposite direction. It's not at all obvious to me why that would be the case.


To be clear, i actually do think social contagion plays a pretty negligible role in the traditional mtf and ftm version of trans people. But all the non binary type shit is a lot more abstract and less specific. My intuition is that social contagion could play a larger role in this group, though i don't know the data to be fair.

The artcles dealing with the situation in sweden and other European countries specified that the really noticeable jump in is the particular demo of young females.  That's also the demo that dominates the various versions of non binary.  I would be willing to bet money that the non binary contigency makes up the bulk of the spike, rather than trans men who are actually kind of rare even in the trans community.

[Lexi Darling]

Not trynna start shit but just pointing out you seemed pretty open to the idea that detransitioners might be socially influenced in their decision, yet you seem completely incredulous that social influence could ever work in the opposite direction. It's not at all obvious to me why that would be the case.

It's more that I'm just confused, honestly. It might be happening, I really don't know, but yeah, I really would be a bit shocked if people were actually transitioning because they think it's "cool" and a trend among young progressives. But I haven't spoken to many trans teenagers.

It's just, speaking specifically about medical transition and presentation, I don't understand why anyone would go through the absolute hellish ordeal of transition as a minor because they perceive it as a cool thing to do or something that will be a positive change for them. The only positive change for me was the lifting of the horrible cloud of dysphoria, and if the kids are purely socially influenced and don't really have dysphoria it feels like it just doesn't compute to me. I think some people detransition (partly, in some cases, mind you) to avoid negative social effects, but I dunno about transitioning to gain positive social effects, my experience has been the complete inverse of that.

But honestly, I may still be stuck in 2004. I haven't set foot in a school in over 15 years; I am kind of a part of a more old school trans experience, so for all I know the kids could have an very different perception of what being trans means. Like I said before, trans people are not a monolith, so yeah, perhaps it is wrong of me to act like a spokesperson for the community. I don't have all the answers.

[Jwb]

It goes without saying that things have changed pretty dramatically since 2004.

As i indicated in the portion of my post you didn't quote, non binary identity types are much more prominent than they were in 2004 to be sure.

[Jwb]

Case in point:

[Lexi Darling]

It goes without saying that things have changed pretty dramatically since 2004.

As i indicated in the portion of my post you didn't quote, non binary identity types are much more prominent than they were in 2004 to be sure.

That is true, for sure. It's not an identity I have much experience with or knowledge about so I did not comment on them.

Believe it or not I have no actual opinion on stuff like nonbinary, genderfluid, xenogender, neopronouns or other identities like that, their identities are their business and it is not my place to speak on it. I use the pronouns they identify with because that's just common respect. But like I was saying before, not every area of the gender spectrum and associated communities is in my personal wheelhouse of expertise. I'm just some random lady, lol.

But constantly having to defend my own identity from the barrage of scrutiny and skepticism does sometimes suck me into debates where I am confronted with shit I just don't have the answer to.

[Nimbly9]

Case in point:

Abrosexual sounds like the most non-committal thing ever.

[jadis]

Not trynna start shit but just pointing out you seemed pretty open to the idea that detransitioners might be socially influenced in their decision, yet you seem completely incredulous that social influence could ever work in the opposite direction. It's not at all obvious to me why that would be the case.


To be clear, i actually do think social contagion plays a pretty negligible role in the traditional mtf and ftm version of trans people. But all the non binary type shit is a lot more abstract and less specific. My intuition is that social contagion could play a larger role in this group, though i don't know the data to be fair.

The artcles dealing with the situation in sweden and other European countries specified that the really noticeable jump in is the particular demo of young females.  That's also the demo that dominates the various versions of non binary.  I would be willing to bet money that the non binary contigency makes up the bulk of the spike, rather than trans men who are actually kind of rare even in the trans community.

I'd constantly hear people talk of how there are no longer any butch lesbians left in NYC cause they're all ftm now...

 

[jadis]

Helping Trans Kids Means Admitting What We Don't Know

[Lexi Darling]

Geez, this is like the second weird thing you've posted about trans people today. At this point I'm just amused at how much we seem to live rent-free in your head.

[jadis]

Geez, this is like the second weird thing you've posted about trans people today. At this point I'm just amused at how much we seem to live rent-free in your head.

Weird how?

[Lexi Darling]

Weird how?

For one, the way it seems to care more about building up "the left" as a strawman. Like, oh no, trans people and trans allies aren't buying our skepticism of trans healthcare, so let's try to paint them as irrational by saying "wahhh, the mean old lefties called me Hitler when I'm just asking questions!!!"

It then goes on to try to debase the trans side's use of the "just asking questions" adage as being irrational as well, like it's so preposterous that we would be skeptical of their skepticism.

For the record, I think if there is concrete scientific study that trans healthcare for teens has long term negative medical effects, that is something to listen to and take seriously. I have made that clear many times on here. But if this magazine wanted to make that point, they could present the facts without all that whining.

[jadis]

Tbh I don't know if "just the facts and none of that whining" is a standard vocal trans activists and advocates can be said to abide by... Not from what I've seen.

If there's one rhetorical tendency I have seen is the inflationist one: the moment you question any claim made in the name of trans advocacy you're labelled as a genocidal Nazi by people who appear to have the emotional maturity of toddlers. In that sense I think the article is rather understated, if anything.

Where is the lie:

Progressive activists have not just embraced the gender-affirming care model; they have begun treating any disagreement with it as hateful denial that trans people exist. Indeed, they have frequently denied that any debate exists within the medical community at all... Over the last half-decade, as more and more reporting has revealed a persistent divide inside the medical community, the attempts on the left to deny its existence have grown increasingly strained. Rather than acknowledge the debate within the medical community and the genuine sources of concern, activists have continued to wish away its existence and attack those journalists who try to report on it.

The meme about "just asking questions" as a shorthand for bigotry does stigmatize asking questions, which is the single most important intellectual tool that we have. If you're asking questions, you're "just asking questions." That is poison. 

[Lexi Darling]

The problem isn't asking questions, the problem is us answering the questions and the questioners not accepting our answers. You really think the vast majority of trans discourse is coming from people who are asking questions out of genuine curiosity with no preconceived agenda?

Maybe there are some people who are questioning us out of genuine concern for the trans community, but when you've been existing online as a trans person for long enough, you tend to be able to spot bad faith discourse pretty easily. And I don't think everyone who is skeptical of trans healthcare and methodology is a genocidal Nazi, I don't think most trans people actually think that. We're just exhausted from having to defend ourselves from all the inquisitions and having our identity and right to exist nitpicked by bad faith "questioners" that some people lash out.

And that doesn't absolve the skeptics, either. Whether they have malicious intentions or not, them trying to question the legitimacy of trans healthcare is not helping us. Maybe we can have a more levelheaded discussion about the potential harm of puberty blockers without calling anyone Nazis when trans identity isn't being constantly attacked by the actual Nazis. But in my humble opinion, this is not the right time to be "just asking questions".

[jadis]

We all have preconceived agendas. This is why I like this article: it says that we should admit there's a lot we don't know and we should be open to changing our minds.

I'm not sure the tweets documented on this page can be described as just some people lashing out.

Maybe there are some people who are questioning us out of genuine concern for the trans community, but when you've been existing online as a trans person for long enough, you tend to be able to spot bad faith discourse pretty easily.

With something as monumental as the redrawing of lines between men and women, the "trans community" are not the only ones affected by it. There are many genuine concerns to be had about a myriad of things here. Just one example that I already posted here of how "trans healthcare" can be driven by homophobia:

a 60 something gay historian I'm friends with has a friend who was the first surgeon to perform transition operations on children in the state of NY. This doctor said that he stopped performing this procedure because he's come to perceive a pattern of latent homophobia of the parents who brought their young sons to him. The underlying train of thought, he said, is that "if our son gonna be a sissy, let him just be a woman and get this over with..."

Another worrying thing I've seen IRL is incels who transition while retaining all of their bottomless resentment toward biological women. The concerns one has here are not about the trans community.