cis male is a slur

[Lexi Darling]

Personally I don't see a meaningful difference between their "skepticism" and that of American right wingers insofar as being used to justify denying trans people healthcare. But that's just me.

I'm just so sick of cis people saying they know us better than we do. They can take their "skepticism" and shove it. I'm not gonna play nice anymore.

[Jwb]

That

Personally I don't see a meaningful difference between their "skepticism" and that of American right wingers insofar as being used to justify denying trans people healthcare. But that's just me.

I'm just so sick of cis people saying they know us better than we do. They can take their "skepticism" and shove it. I'm not gonna play nice anymore.

you saying i see no distinction because they are denying them healthcare sounds highly dogmatic to me

It's like you assume it's impossible they changed their standards because they were no longer sure of them based on some of the results they were getting.  They were on the cutting edge of providing gender affirming care to minors and yet reversed course for some reason.  Which i don't claim to be intimately familiar with.  But it seems like a stretch to say the least to lump that in with some performative anti-trans culture war shit from the states. Unless you have just decided in advance that the only possible resistance to gender affirming care would be one which is rooted in transphobia. So are we completely writing off the prospect that delaying puberty might just have serious health implications?

[Lexi Darling]

Thatyou saying i see no distinction because they are denying them healthcare sounds highly dogmatic to me

It's like you assume it's impossible they changed their standards because they were no longer sure of them based on some of the results they were getting.  They were on the cutting edge of providing gender affirming care to minors and yet reversed course for some reason.  Which i don't claim to be intimately familiar with.  But it seems like a stretch to say the least to lump that in with some performative anti-trans culture war shit from the states. Unless you have just decided in advance that the only possible resistance to gender affirming care would be one which is rooted in transphobia. So are we completely writing off the prospect that delaying puberty might just have serious health implications?

If there are proven to be serious biological health risks, then yes, of course I would not write those off. And fine, that very well could be the case, but it has been my experience as a part of this community for nearly 20 years that a lot of the discourse around minors taking blockers (which it has always been my understanding are in fact non-permanent and reversible) has been a moral or a "what if they regret it" thing, and in my experience one of the biggest causes of regret or detransition has been being forced to deal with the amount of transphobic harassment they experience from others rather than being unhappy with their transition itself.

So that's what I was really referring to, the moral or social argument against it. This whole thing was a reaction to Nimbly saying the studies "don't seem to show a lot of benefits" or whatever. Like I said I will gladly concede if a reputable source on the adverse health effects is provided. I just tend to approach this stuff with a bit of my own skepticism, especially considering the site he linked was a very clearly right-biased source.

Late night edit:

I apologize for my forwardness. I do admit I have a tendency to lash out when people bring up trans discourse. I hope the people on here can understand just how exhausted we get from all the attacks, slurs, legal assaults on our rights, threats of violence and constant debates over our the validity of our existence, usually from powerful and influential people who very likely have never had any meaningful conversation with a trans person in their lives. Living in this current political and social climate and dealing with so many disingenuous bad faith posts online has made me extremely on edge whenever non-trans people comment on trans issues. Again I apologize if anyone felt I came off as trying to bite people's heads off.

[DJChameleon]

So my take on states banning stuff pertaining to minors and how the right wing is carrying it like a badge of honor. It's so funny how they usually want as little government to be involved in regulations when it comes to companies and other things. Anytime there is an issue they feel is morally wrong they want the government to get heavily involved in your personal life ie overturning ROE V WADE.

Speaking of the over turning of that, I think today is the one year anniversary of that happening and I'm going to do some door knocking for planned parenthood. I do believe in the cause but mostly doing this because I'm getting paid 200 bucks for 3 hours of work not a bad come up. Chasing bags left and right lately.

Anyways back to what I was saying, I feel like it should be the parents ultimate decision because they know their child better than the fucking government. If their teen wants the surgery then go ahead and get it for them. Protect Trans Kids!

[Janszoon]

So my take on states banning stuff pertaining to minors and how the right wing is carrying it like a badge of honor. It's so funny how they usually want as little government to be involved in regulations when it comes to companies and other things. Anytime there is an issue they feel is morally wrong they want the government to get heavily involved in your personal life ie overturning ROE V WADE.

It's always hilarious to me that they claim to want small government since they consistently advocate for a large military, aggressive policing, harsher prison sentences, laws to control people's personal lives, book bans, etc. You know, all the hallmarks of a large, oppressive government.

[Jwb]

If there are proven to be serious biological health risks, then yes, of course I would not write those off. And fine, that very well could be the case, but it has been my experience as a part of this community for nearly 20 years that a lot of the discourse around minors taking blockers (which it has always been my understanding are in fact non-permanent and reversible) has been a moral or a "what if they regret it" thing, and in my experience one of the biggest causes of regret or detransition has been being forced to deal with the amount of transphobic harassment they experience from others rather than being unhappy with their transition itself.

So that's what I was really referring to, the moral or social argument against it. This whole thing was a reaction to Nimbly saying the studies "don't seem to show a lot of benefits" or whatever. Like I said I will gladly concede if a reputable source on the adverse health effects is provided. I just tend to approach this stuff with a bit of my own skepticism, especially considering the site he linked was a very clearly right-biased source.

Late night edit:

I apologize for my forwardness. I do admit I have a tendency to lash out when people bring up trans discourse. I hope the people on here can understand just how exhausted we get from all the attacks, slurs, legal assaults on our rights, threats of violence and constant debates over our the validity of our existence, usually from powerful and influential people who very likely have never had any meaningful conversation with a trans person in their lives. Living in this current political and social climate and dealing with so many disingenuous bad faith posts online has made me extremely on edge whenever non-trans people comment on trans issues. Again I apologize if anyone felt I came off as trying to bite people's heads off.

sorry for the late reply.  Been working a lot.

You don't need to apologize, i wasn't offended.  I was just pointing out why what you said sounded dogmatic to me.


I don't know that much about puberty blockers iah but the idea that whatever effects come from delaying puberty can be completely reversed seems intuitively implausible to say the least.

I don't say that there is no value in it, obviously if you want to transition then there is a certain utility to the idea of avoiding puberty but it's not without its trade offs. For example if you don't go through male puberty then you might not grow enough penile tissue for the bottom surgery.  All of this shit is like mad science to me that people are just experimenting with and them acting indignant at any sign of skepticism.

[Lexi Darling]

sorry for the late reply.  Been working a lot.

You don't need to apologize, i wasn't offended.  I was just pointing out why what you said sounded dogmatic to me.


I don't know that much about puberty blockers iah but the idea that whatever effects come from delaying puberty can be completely reversed seems intuitively implausible to say the least.

I don't say that there is no value in it, obviously if you want to transition then there is a certain utility to the idea of avoiding puberty but it's not without its trade offs. For example if you don't go through male puberty then you might not grow enough penile tissue for the bottom surgery.  All of this shit is like mad science to me that people are just experimenting with and them acting indignant at any sign of skepticism.

I gotcha, thank you.

Honestly I do understand and sympathize with your point of view to some extent. Transition is a big step to take for young people, which is why I do believe in medical evaluation, diagnosis and working closely with experienced doctors and support networks. And as far as I have read, puberty blockers are not meant to outright avoid puberty in all cases, just to stall it until the kid can be certain they want to continue further with transition. Those who do not can get off blockers and puberty will resume. That's what I have always read, if there are new findings from reputable sources, I will gladly re-evaluate.

But another side of the equation is how poorly out trans people are treated by the world at large. I still strongly believe very many people who do decide to get off blockers or detransition or regret starting transition do so not because they are not trans, but because of transphobes and the cruelty of the internet, media and political sphere that are committed to harassing, dismissing and demeaning trans people at every turn.

And as for the "concerned parents" who are afraid their kid is being infected by wokeness and was "transed" or whatever the conservatives say these days, literally all the parents need to do is not sign the parental consent form. Which is what my mom did. I wasn't even allowed to think about hormones until I was 18. Whatever my opinion is on children starting transition, it's actually kind of a moot point because medical transition is not happening behind parents' backs and the discourse around "the evil woke schools are giving kids hormones and surgery" is a disingenuous right wing moral panic. It's a non-issue. If the right wing parents want to deny their child hormones, they can do that.

I personally dream of a world where transitioning isn't as big of a deal. I dream of a world where some girls just feel happier living as boys, and vice versa, and that would be seen as the perfectly normal and valid thing it is. It is not "mad science", trans people have gotten medical transition for at least 50 years. It's no more mad or experimental than any other long term healthcare treatments, it's just stigmatized more because of society's frankly outdated puritanical views on gender. There is a literal laundry list of prescription and OTC drugs that are more dangerous than hormones. Speaking for myself, I'd rather choose to live as myself and feel normal in my skin than live in fear of potential medical problems.

My main point is that all of this stuff, from blockers to hormones to surgery, it is not something that is just given to kids willy-nilly. I don't think, with the world and society in its current state, that it's right for kids to just walk into a doctor's office and get gender affirming healthcare. And that's not what's happening, that was never what was happening. And if the science ends up being bad on blockers, I will support efforts to find other options to help youth transition. I'm here to help trans people in any way I can, I want to meet them with kindness, respect and understanding, and provide them with the kind of resources that I did not have when I started my transition in 2004.

I did not mean to come off as indignant, I admitted I lashed out and I apologize for that. Like I said I am so utterly exhausted by bad faith trans discourse that I do admit I sometimes take perfectly legitimate concerns and desire for information and clarity and treat it with distrust by default. I'm trying to work on that.

These rants are not solely or even mostly directed at you, either. I am not trying to imply that you are anti-trans or that you espouse the popular right wing views on youth transition, for the record. I just want to put this stuff out there to try to set the record as straight as I can for everyone reading, to use my nearly two decades of experience with gender transition to make the facts and my stance on what is proper handling of these issues clear.

[Jwb]

I gotcha, thank you.

Honestly I do understand and sympathize with your point of view to some extent. Transition is a big step to take for young people, which is why I do believe in medical evaluation, diagnosis and working closely with experienced doctors and support networks. And as far as I have read, puberty blockers are not meant to outright avoid puberty in all cases, just to stall it until the kid can be certain they want to continue further with transition. Those who do not can get off blockers and puberty will resume. That's what I have always read, if there are new findings from reputable sources, I will gladly re-evaluate.

I did say delaying puberty, to be fair. And yes i think even just delaying puberty could cause long term side effects that are irreversible. Delaying a critical point of human development such as puberty seems like something that shouldn't be underestimated  in terms of potential consequences.

The use of these types of drugs for precocious puberty tells us right off the bat that the timing of puberty is important at least in so far as it can be harmful if it happens too early. But it's not at all obvious what the effects of a delayed puberty could be.

But another side of the equation is how poorly out trans people are treated by the world at large. I still strongly believe very many people who do decide to get off blockers or detransition or regret starting transition do so not because they are not trans, but because of transphobes and the cruelty of the internet, media and political sphere that are committed to harassing, dismissing and demeaning trans people at every turn.

see this sorta sounds like you are invalidating the identity of said detransitioners by saying they're repressed trans people who caved to social pressure and not truly detransitioning because they no longer feel trans. Correct me if i have that wrong.

I personally dream of a world where transitioning isn't as big of a deal. I dream of a world where some girls just feel happier living as boys, and vice versa, and that would be seen as the perfectly normal and valid thing it is. It is not "mad science", trans people have gotten medical transition for at least 50 years. It's no more mad or experimental than any other long term healthcare treatments, it's just stigmatized more because of society's frankly outdated puritanical views on gender. There is a literal laundry list of prescription and OTC drugs that are more dangerous than hormones. Speaking for myself, I'd rather choose to live as myself and feel normal in my skin than live in fear of potential medical problems.

I said mad science specifically in regard to delaying puberty in order to make transitioning more effective or whatever. That is absolutely a fairly new phenomenon where the science is far from actually being settled. Despite the fact that it has become orthodoxy in the left to present it as such. That's frankly a PR move for the movement or whatever, and i can almost understand the motive but that doesn't make it less dishonest.

I don't disagree with you that there's a lot of posturing to sift through in terms of people's opinions on topics like this.  I also find that tiresome.

As for specifically the thing in sweden where they rolled it back to only being practiced in a clinical setting, a big part of the rationale is a massive unexplained surge in underage people seeking care for gender dysphoria, almost all of whom are AFAB. It seems they are being cautious based both on shaky evidence of the efficacy of these interventions as well as a massive recent unexplained spike in youths who are trying to get said care.

Here are the highlighted conclusions from a report commissioned by the Swedish government concerning gender affirming care for youths:

Conclusions

We have not found any scientific studies which explains the increase in incidence in children and adolescents who seek the heath care because of gender dysphoria.

We have not found any studies on changes in prevalence of gender dysphoria over calendar time, nor any studies on factors that can affect the societal acceptance of seeking for gender dysphoria.

There are few studies on gender affirming surgery in general in children and adolescents and only single studies on gender affirming genital surgery.

Studies on long-term effects of gender affirming treatment in children and adolescents are few, especially for the groups that have appeared during the recent decennium.

The scientific activity in the field seems high. A large part of the identified studies are published during 2018 and 2019.

Almost all identified studies are observational, some with controls and some with evaluation before and after gender affirming treatment. No relevant randomised controlled trials in children and adolescents were found.

We have not found any composed national information from Sweden on:
– the proportion of those who seek health care for gender dysphoria that get a formal diagnosis
– the proportion starting endocrine treatment to delay puberty
– the proportion starting gender affirming hormonal treatment
– the proportion subjected to different gender affirming surgery

https://www.sbu.se/en/publications/sbu-bereder/gender-dysphoria-in-children-and-adolescents-an-inventory-of-the-literature/

My main point is that all of this stuff, from blockers to hormones to surgery, it is not something that is just given to kids willy-nilly. I don't think, with the world and society in its current state, that it's right for kids to just walk into a doctor's office and get gender affirming healthcare. And that's not what's happening, that was never what was happening. And if the science ends up being bad on blockers, I will support efforts to find other options to help youth transition. I'm here to help trans people in any way I can, I want to meet them with kindness, respect and understanding, and provide them with the kind of resources that I did not have when I started my transition in 2004.

I did not mean to come off as indignant, I admitted I lashed out and I apologize for that. Like I said I am so utterly exhausted by bad faith trans discourse that I do admit I sometimes take perfectly legitimate concerns and desire for information and clarity and treat it with distrust by default. I'm trying to work on that.

These rants are not solely or even mostly directed at you, either. I am not trying to imply that you are anti-trans or that you espouse the popular right wing views on youth transition, for the record. I just want to put this stuff out there to try to set the record as straight as I can for everyone reading, to use my nearly two decades of experience with gender transition to make the facts and my stance on what is proper handling of these issues clear.

again your apologies aren't necessary here. If you say something that i think warrants an apology i will let you know. I would rather hear your honest thoughts than have you constantly second guessing yourself based on the percieved optics of the situation.

[Lexi Darling]

The "surge" of trans people is pretty explainable as information and general acceptance and support are a lot more accessible now than they used to be. Both positive and negative, the media's relentless coverage of trans people has helped more people give a name to their feelings of dysphoria. I don't think there's much truth to the "social contagion" theory. It's not actually a common thing to feel like another gender and I just don't buy that it's a trendy thing among the kids so everyone wants to do it. Not saying that's what you're saying of course, just common rhetoric used when talking about spikes in trans identification.

And I support detransition for any reason, and of course there are people who genuinely no longer see themselves as trans. I did not mean to imply that I think all of them are like that. But I do know people who regret transitioning because their lives were ruined by their own communities so I stand by what I meant.

[Jwb]

The "surge" of trans people is pretty explainable as information and general acceptance and support are a lot more accessible now than they used to be. Both positive and negative, the media's relentless coverage of trans people has helped more people give a name to their feelings of dysphoria. I don't think there's much truth to the "social contagion" theory. It's not actually a common thing to feel like another gender and I just don't buy that it's a trendy thing among the kids so everyone wants to do it. Not saying that's what you're saying of course, just common rhetoric used when talking about spikes in trans identification.

you put surge in quotation marks, yet this is what I'm reading:

Sweden, like many other western countries, has in recent years seen a sharp rise in diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

According to the Swedish health authority, the trend is particularly visible among 13- to 17-year-olds assigned female at birth, with an increase of 1,500 per cent between 2008 and 2018.

Experts say the reasons for this increase remain largely a "mystery".

"Tolerance has been high in Sweden for at least the last 25 years, so you can't say it has changed," Landen said when asked if it was simply a result of a more accepting society.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens

Somehow you have the answer even though the experts don't.  Why is the rise so densely concentrated in AFAB teens if it is merely a result of trans kids feeling accepted? And what societal shift can you even point to in sweden that would lead to a 1500% spike in a single decade. You are just throwing out boiler plate talking points without actually trying to wrestle with the figures, imo

And I support detransition for any reason, and of course there are people who genuinely no longer see themselves as trans. I did not mean to imply that I think all of them are like that. But I do know people who regret transitioning because their lives were ruined by their own communities so I stand by what I meant.

you made it sound like the major explanation for why people detransition.  If not then i don't even know why you brought it up.

[Lexi Darling]

On the detransition subject, I did not mean to imply that is the primary reason, I said "many" not "most". I brought it up because a common rationale for banning youth transition is "what if they aren't really trans" and I wanted to offer an alternative potential explanation. That's all.

But maybe you're right, I admit I am not as educated on the subject at the scale we're talking about. All I have is my own experience and that of my close community of trans friends, and that is the perspective I speak from.

I'm deathly afraid of people using statistics like this to justify anti-trans legislation so I do everything I can to speak in defense of my people. But fair enough, I am not the right person to have this debate and I would like to excuse myself from this particular discussion. Thank you.

[jadis]

We are social animals and more or less everything about our selves is the product of "social contagion." We're shaped by social forces so diverse and multiple that no one could fully appreciate their workings on one's self.

In fact, the power of the idea of "gender," of "gender theory," comes from the realization that "one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman." To imagine that one carries a masculine or feminine essence, that there's a Platonic idea of maleness or femaleness within us that is independent of the culture we live in and the pressures it exerts is... just that: Platonic idealism. Which is to say, ultimately reactionary.

[Lexi Darling]

We are social animals and more or less everything about our selves is the product of "social contagion." We're shaped by social forces so diverse and multiple that no one could fully appreciate their workings on one's self.

In fact, the power of the idea of "gender," of "gender theory," comes from the realization that "one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman." To imagine that one carries a masculine or feminine essence, that there's a Platonic idea of maleness or femaleness within us that is independent of the culture we live in and the pressures it exerts is... just that: Platonic idealism. Which is to say, ultimately reactionary.

I used the term "social contagion" in the sense that conservatives use it. They think trans identity is a youth trend among "woke leftists" and not a legitimate feeling and identity. Of course it is a social and cultural thing, I do not believe in innate masculine or feminine identity independent of culture either. But gender dysphoria, regardless of the root cause, is still a thing that manifests in people on its own, almost certainly against their own will, as if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be trans and open themselves up to a lifetime of the shit I've been through.

There are also multiple schools of thought on this mind you, not all trans people are agreed as we are not a monolith. Some think anyone should be able to identify as any gender in any situation, even if they do not have dysphoria, without pursuing medical transition or presenting a differently gendered appearance, and some think you need to have dysphoria and physically transition to be truly trans. My thoughts on that are... complex, and not really relevant to this topic.

Personally I do not think I have an innate "feminine essence", I transitioned because I felt intense dysphoria and knew being in a culturally female identity was what felt right and natural. But of course that is not independent of culture, because everything (aside from genitalia and body shape) that we perceive as "masculine" or "feminine" is culture and therefore not innate. But that culture is inescapable and it does lead to the very real diagnosable mental phenomenon of dysphoria manifesting in people.

So yes, I agree that trans identity is cultural. But that does not make it less legitimate.

[jadis]

I used the term "social contagion" in the sense that conservatives use it. They think trans identity is a youth trend among "woke leftists" and not a legitimate feeling and identity. Of course it is a social and cultural thing, I do not believe in innate masculine or feminine identity independent of culture either. But gender dysphoria, regardless of the root cause, is still a thing that manifests in people on its own, almost certainly against their own will, as if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be trans and open themselves up to a lifetime of the shit I've been through.

There are also multiple schools of thought on this mind you, not all trans people are agreed as we are not a monolith. Some think anyone should be able to identify as any gender in any situation, even if they do not have dysphoria, without pursuing medical transition or presenting a differently gendered appearance, and some think you need to have dysphoria and physically transition to be truly trans. My thoughts on that are... complex, and not really relevant to this topic.

Personally I do not think I have an innate "feminine essence", I transitioned because I felt intense dysphoria and knew being in a culturally female identity was what felt right and natural. But of course that is not independent of culture, because everything (aside from genitalia and body shape) that we perceive as "masculine" or "feminine" is culture and therefore not innate. But that culture is inescapable and it does lead to the very real diagnosable mental phenomenon of dysphoria manifesting in people.

So yes, I agree that trans identity is cultural. But that does not make it less legitimate.

Absolutely

[Lexi Darling]

I would like to formally congratulate Dr. Peterson on coming out as trans! Love to see people living their truth. <3