Tracking the Anti-LGBTQIA+ Movement

[Jwb]

I'm not misrepresenting anything.  He said "if what you suggest comes to pass, isn't that a Final Solution of it's own? A different kind of holocaust?" You keep getting pedantic about me not phrasing it the exact way he did,  yet the gist is the same. He's saying that if the things I listed might happen do come to pass, maybe it's not quite as bad,  but that it's in a similar category as the holocaust.  I think that's just wrong.

And I haven't responded to you mainly because my disagreement is with TH. When you respond, you haven't really said much that I disagree with that much.  I don't disagree with "there are reasons to be concerned. " If that's all anyone ever said,  I'd have never responded in the first place.

[Lexi Darling]

I'm not misrepresenting anything.  He said "if what you suggest comes to pass, isn't that a Final Solution of it's own? A different kind of holocaust?" You keep getting pedantic about me not phrasing it the exact way he did,  yet the gist is the same. He's saying that if the things I listed might happen do come to pass, maybe it's not quite as bad,  but that it's in a similar category as the holocaust.  I think that's just wrong.

And I haven't responded to you mainly because my disagreement is with TH. When you respond, you haven't really said much that I disagree with that much.  I don't disagree with "there are reasons to be concerned. " If that's all anyone ever said,  I'd have never responded in the first place.

Understood. My issue was with your wording seemingly framing it as focusing specifically on banning surgery, when, regardless of what TH was responding to, that is only one part of a much larger threat, as I have detailed in my posts. I just want it to be clear that we're all on the same page here. I appreciate the clarification.

[Trollheart]

When you hear someone like Lexi say "if that [being forced back into male gender] happens, then I may not want to live" (paraphrasing, but she said something to that effect), and you extend that belief out across the trans demographic, even if not all of them feel that way, I stand by my assertion that doing that to people who are absolutely no danger to these fascists, or anyone else, except what they see in their mind and use to their political advantage, is the same as a holocaust. You'll note, since you like semantics, I don't say THE holocaust, which would certainly be disinegunous, even insulting to those who died in the camps and under Nazi occupation: I say A holocaust. Because for trans people, denying their right to exist and forcing them to be someone they do not want to be is just as bad as killing them. At least, in death there's peace, whereas with this forced reassignment or whatever they're going to call it, then it's a living hell. What's getting up every morning to see a face and body in the mirror you hate, or don't want? Dying a little every day? At least if they kill you, they can only do it once.

Oh, and before you once again twist my words and misrepresent my views, I'm not saying trans people should be killed, just making a correlation between death/murder and how they would see being forced back into their non-chosen gender. I doubt either of us can understand what a nightmare that would be.

And as for derailing the thread, look: nobody asked you to come in and start questioning what is going on, the level and the methods. Lexi started this thread to catalogue the rights being rolled back, not to invite debate as to how bad it's going to get, or not going to get. That's not the theme, nor the purpose of this thread, just as it was not the purpose of mine. But as usual, JWB, you just want to argue for argument's sake, and to, it seems, be contrary. If the thread was "do you think this is going to be as bad" or whatever, then fine: an opinion is asked for and you should feel you can contribute if you want. That's not what this thread is about, according to Lexi's OP. It's her thread, if she wants you to debate the issues with her that's her prerogative. I haven't seen her ask the question, and given the position she's in, I don't think she'll be too interested in debating someone who's trying to downplay what's happening, or studying it as if it's some clinical esoteric debate when it's very very real to her.

And still, you offer her no support or words of encouragement.

So once again, stop taking words and putting them in my mouth. One more time: as bad as A holocaust, A holocaust of sorts. Not THE holocaust. Big difference. And it is. Damned if it's not. In fact, in some ways it's even more cruel, as they get to gloat about what they've done as these innocent people attempt to live a life they don't want, or end it altogether. Almost essentially letting them kill themselves. Hyperbole quote for you to use in later posts with or about me: "Saves on the gas."

[Lexi Darling]

To add onto TH's point about the possibility of permanent or even long term forced detransition, from having researched it and having spoken to people who have experienced it, it's a lot worse than just being forced back into the wrong gender. Being without HRT after having had an orchiectomy and/or vaginoplasty causes all the effects of menopause; frequent hot flashes, dizziness and weakness, it drastically increases the risk and susceptibility to osteoporosis and bones becoming brittle. It can cause rapid aging of the skin as well as memory loss and brain fog, and the mind goes through severe emotional distress while the effects take hold.

When I first got on HRT, it was like I finally felt normal, the way I was supposed to feel as my default frame of mind. I've always said it fixed a broken gear in my brain that I didn't even know was broken. It made me more mindful and hyper aware, my mood got so much brighter. I would never have made any of the positive progress in the past five years of my life if not for it. It was a complete turnaround from the distant, depressed, life-on-autopilot person I was pre-HRT, and to return to a mind like that after having tasted what I have, with no guarantee that I would be able to ever get back on it in the event of a total ban like the proposed Texas one, well, I feel like I would be living as a husk of myself. And with all the health problems I described on top of that, I could try to wait it out and retransition if and when a situation would arise where it would be safe to do so, but being gravely honest, I don't know if I could fully trust myself with the will to keep going.

I think I'm going to elaborate on some of these feelings later in the support thread. I want to be open and candid about this but I know this thread isn't the place for it.

[DeepMinder]

uploaded today^

[Lexi Darling]

uploaded today^

With all due respect, this is tabloid fluff, and that's being generous. It's disingenuous to present the postings of a random anonymous Facebook page as important LGBT news, and the massive amount of disgusting transphobia in the comments gives me the impression that this channel is a heavily biased source at best.

I would appreciate it if you would keep sensationalist nonsense like this out of my thread. If you must post this stuff, link to actual journalists and news publications and not a random commentary YouTuber.

[Weekender]

Gavin Newsom sucks up to fascists on trans issues.

So deeply disappointing.

I think they're looking at the numbers and seeing that the people that feel strongly about trans rights are not voting for Democrats anyway.

[DeepMinder]

With all due respect, this is tabloid fluff, and that's being generous. It's disingenuous to present the postings of a random anonymous Facebook page as important LGBT news, and the massive amount of disgusting transphobia in the comments gives me the impression that this channel is a heavily biased source at best.

I would appreciate it if you would keep sensationalist nonsense like this out of my thread. If you must post this stuff, link to actual journalists and news publications and not a random commentary YouTuber.

I didn't mean to offend 

I just knew this thread was about "tracking" the anti-lgbtqia stuff and this is that

[Lexi Darling]

I didn't mean to offend 

I just knew this thread was about "tracking" the anti-lgbtqia stuff and this is that

(I have special tracking capabilities btw)

You're fine. I would just prefer if we keep this thread to politics and news journalism rather than inconsequential online gossip.

Even at that, the video reads as disingenuously framed by a commentator who is uneducated at the absolute least, and comes off as extremely tone-deaf. The US government is actively persecuting us. What message does it send to sensationalize some random social media account calling for an "trans army" to revolt against the government? What would make anyone think this account is worth paying attention to? It's deeply unhelpful to put a spotlight onto random anonymous social media users and pass their posts off as a real concern or as representative of trans people's opposition to the persecution they are suffering.

I'm not meaning to make this personal toward you, Quantum, I just wanted to voice my thoughts on the content you posted and state my preference to keep this thread on the topic of politics and legislation affecting LGBTQIA+ people, rather than a more general "LGBTQIA+ topics" thread.

[Jwb]

When you hear someone like Lexi say "if that [being forced back into male gender] happens, then I may not want to live" (paraphrasing, but she said something to that effect), and you extend that belief out across the trans demographic, even if not all of them feel that way, I stand by my assertion that doing that to people who are absolutely no danger to these fascists, or anyone else, except what they see in their mind and use to their political advantage, is the same as a holocaust. You'll note, since you like semantics, I don't say THE holocaust, which would certainly be disinegunous, even insulting to those who died in the camps and under Nazi occupation: I say A holocaust. Because for trans people, denying their right to exist and forcing them to be someone they do not want to be is just as bad as killing them. At least, in death there's peace, whereas with this forced reassignment or whatever they're going to call it, then it's a living hell. What's getting up every morning to see a face and body in the mirror you hate, or don't want? Dying a little every day? At least if they kill you, they can only do it once.

You realize that trans people having access to gender affirming care is relatively recent as a widespread thing? You're essentially saying that there's little moral difference between genocide and the way that most countries still operate,  and the way that Western societies also operated up until recently. You can potentially just bite the bullet on that and say "yes, that's what I'm saying" but then the question still arises why you specifically choose to invoke final solution/holocaust comparisons. Why is that even such a potent symbol of human evil,  if it's basically on par with how most societies have operated? You want to invoke it to point out that something exceptionally evil is going on here.  But that point is undermined by the fact that by the standards you're setting,  holocausts are pretty much just business as usual.

And trying to say "a holocaust" instead of "the holocaust" is just you back pedaling. You specifically invoked both the Final solution and the fate of the Jews in Nazi Germany.  And the term holocaust is typically reserved for that genocide specifically,  in any case.  But I also don't think that removing access to gender affirming care is particularly on par with other genocides either.  Assuming we aren't just talking about cultural genocide. Countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran literally put people to death for homosexual acts, and even that isn't typically slotted as up there with actual genocides that feature mass slaughter

Oh, and before you once again twist my words and misrepresent my views, I'm not saying trans people should be killed, just making a correlation between death/murder and how they would see being forced back into their non-chosen gender. I doubt either of us can understand what a nightmare that would be.

we have even less idea what it would be like to be rounded up and killed,  much as you assure me that there's "peace in death."

And as for derailing the thread, look: nobody asked you to come in and start questioning what is going on, the level and the methods. Lexi started this thread to catalogue the rights being rolled back, not to invite debate as to how bad it's going to get, or not going to get. That's not the theme, nor the purpose of this thread, just as it was not the purpose of mine. But as usual, JWB, you just want to argue for argument's sake, and to, it seems, be contrary. If the thread was "do you think this is going to be as bad" or whatever, then fine: an opinion is asked for and you should feel you can contribute if you want. That's not what this thread is about, according to Lexi's OP. It's her thread, if she wants you to debate the issues with her that's her prerogative. I haven't seen her ask the question, and given the position she's in, I don't think she'll be too interested in debating someone who's trying to downplay what's happening, or studying it as if it's some clinical esoteric debate when it's very very real to her.

And still, you offer her no support or words of encouragement.

You seem to be confused about how this works.  She doesn't have to say she invites debate,  lol.  If I see something I disagree with,  or something that I want to respond to,  I respond. That isn't going to change, either.  You felt it was an appropriate place to double down on your holocaust comparison, so I responded.  You seem to be under the impression that until Lexi gives the go ahead for people to disagree,  we are all supposed to either join in on the circle jerk or keep our mouths shut? No thanks.

And what words of encouragement do you want from me? It feels very performative for you to keep bringing that up, lol.  I told her in the other thread I understood her concerns about the medical shit and you still decided to go at me for being insensitive. I feel like this entire thing is some kind of purity test where you think framing things in the most apocalyptic way possible is you demonstrating your compassion.

[Lexi Darling]

I agree that rolling back our rights and protections, erasing our identity and barring us from existing openly is not analogous to genocide. My point of contention would be that, as I elaborated on in another post, banning HRT and cutting trans people off from it is a form of direct physical violence that will result in masses of trans people suffering debilitating physical and mental health problems, and, as I implied at the end of that post, will pretty invariably lead to a large number of deaths, even if they're not at the hands of a gas chamber or firing squad.

It's not as simple as reverting to a time before gender affirming care was accessible, there will be immediate tangible devastating effects on the transitioned people living right now. The countries you're referencing where there is no access to transition healthcare are different because they're not trying to rip transitioned people off of crucial medicines that they need to be on in order to avoid debilitating health problems; they never allowed their citizens access to trans healthcare in the first place. HRT isn't crucial to avoiding those health problems if you were never on it or never had gender surgery in the first place.

I agree that holocaust comparisons aren't accurate at this particular point. But an adult HRT ban in a country where full medical transition has been happening for 75+ years would be a massively destabilizing event that really isn't 'business as usual' anywhere.

[Jwb]

That's a fair point that it would be more damaging to prevent access to care for people who have already transitioned, so you can say in that way it would be worse,  but it's still a much closer analogy than genocide. 

It also speaks to the idea that people who aren't allowed to access said care experience dysphoria which can also lead to suicide etc.  That is certainly true of the countries I listed, and as I said they do go a step beyond that by directly arresting and even occasionally executing people for homosexual acts.

So while it might not be the exact same thing to reverse course after allowing transitions for a time vs never allowing them in the first place,  it's not at all clear to me that the statement would hold true that it's better to be LGBT in Saudi Arabia vs in the version of Trump's America that I laid out as my more plausible worst case scenario.  My only point in even making that comparison is to point out that there are just much more analogous comparisons to make than jumping right to genocide,  and that picking the most extreme historical example you can think of is either misguided or intentionally hyperbolic. But TH specified he doesn't buy that it actually is all that hyperbolic,  which I took issue with.

And i can understand  you taking issue the phrase "business as usual" but to be clear I'm not saying it's acceptable.  I'm just saying that using the logic of "repressing trans identity is a fate comparable with death," the mainstream acceptance of trans identity in America is pretty new. The treatments have been around for a bit longer,  but I don't think it was very common up until recently. And to the extent that it did exist,  it largely wasn't accepted until very recently.

[DeepMinder]

You're fine. I would just prefer if we keep this thread to politics and news journalism rather than inconsequential online gossip.

Even at that, the video reads as disingenuously framed by a commentator who is uneducated at the absolute least, and comes off as extremely tone-deaf. The US government is actively persecuting us. What message does it send to sensationalize some random social media account calling for an "trans army" to revolt against the government? What would make anyone think this account is worth paying attention to? It's deeply unhelpful to put a spotlight onto random anonymous social media users and pass their posts off as a real concern or as representative of trans people's opposition to the persecution they are suffering.

I'm not meaning to make this personal toward you, Quantum, I just wanted to voice my thoughts on the content you posted and state my preference to keep this thread on the topic of politics and legislation affecting LGBTQIA+ people, rather than a more general "LGBTQIA+ topics" thread.

He is an officer in the Marine Corps, and really popular in the military content creators online. He is actually really popular in the whole military/government from what I know, on all social media.


he does seem to not agree with the lgbtqia ideas

[Lexi Darling]

Cops burst into women's restroom to remove butch lesbian, accusing her of being a man

Expect more and more of this shit as long as the right continues the anti trans crusade. The policing of gender hurts everyone, not just trans people.

[Lexi Darling]

New German, Swiss, And Austrian Guidelines Recommend Trans Youth Care, Slam Cass Review

Some more positive news, and encouraging that the Cass review is being called out for the shoddy political agenda it is.