Trump Redux: The Death of Democracy, or Overblown Hyperbole?

[jimmy jazz]

How is being placed in ICE detention centers not deportation? It's part of the process.

I don't have to lie about the pro Hamas/pro Palestinian comparison. You've said it out of your own mouth.

How is going to court not the same as being sent to prison? It's part of the process.

No I haven't. I've never said they're the same thing whatsoever. I'd never say that.  You are lying.

[DJChameleon]

How is going to court not the same as being sent to prison? It's part of the process.

No I haven't. I've never said they're the same thing whatsoever. I'd never say that.  You are lying.

Being placed in ICE prison is not the same because there is no court process involved they completely skip over that.

[jimmy jazz]

Being placed in ICE prison is not the same because there is no court process involved they completely skip over that.

I never mentioned ICE prison. I'm talking about any prison. Being placed in a detention centre isn't deportation, even if it is part of the process to being deported. Going to court is part of the process before you go to prison but just because you're in court it doesn't mean you're in prison. They're not the same.

And even if they were the same (which they aren't), none of the examples you gave were for "posting the wrong opinions or for being trans".

Are you going to show me where I said being pro-Palestinian is the same thing as being pro-Hamas or are you going to fail to provide evidence for that, too?

I did make my stance clear on Israel a while back:

Not a lot really. I don't see how anyone can defend Israel. Plenty of footage of them targeting civilians and blowing them to bits as if it's GTA.

Does that sound like something someone would say if they thought being pro-Palestinian was the same as being pro-Hamas? Also shows your "you conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism" for the nonsense that was as well.

[Auroras In Ice]

I never mentioned ICE prison. I'm talking about any prison. Being placed in a detention centre isn't deportation, even if it is part of the process to being deported. Going to court is part of the process before you go to prison but just because you're in court it doesn't mean you're in prison. They're not the same.

A core part of why this is a massive issue is because of the complete lack of due process going into people being scooped up and detained, not only within the US, but also people being sent from the US to international detainment sites like the CECOT mega-prison in El Salvador. No judges, no lawyers, no trials. Nothing. In many cases, we're also talking about potentially indefinite periods of detainment without any charges or trials. From what little has been found out about the people sent to CECOT, the only common thread is that they had tattoos with many having no evidence of gang affiliation or criminal records during their time in the US. This is the Executive branch and ICE acting unilaterally and completely side-stepping due process. Trump has made this possible through invocation of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, which was used in such lovely historical instances like Japanese Internment.  The people being black bagged and sent off to detainment with no due process is not just limited to migrants, either.  With the Trump admin expanding the already very loose title of "terrorist" to include campus protestors (ie. Mahmoud Khalil) and people who key a Tesla, you do the math...

JJ, this is worldwide news and there's ample sources posted around this forum. Go look for yourself since you seem averse to anyone here giving you information. If you're going to be so confident in your dismissive attitude, you should at least come to the table with a basic understanding of the topic.

[jimmy jazz]

You're not having the same discussion as me. I haven't argued that people haven't been detained, I haven't argued about due process or lack of, I haven't argued about lack of trials or lawyers or whatever else. Please don't try to change the discussion.

The discussion was about whether people are being deported for being trans or for posting opinions online. It wasn't about whether people are being detained for protesting. Have people been deported for those reasons I just mentioned, or has Trump said he will do that?

JJ, this is worldwide news and there's ample sources posted around this forum. Go look for yourself since you seem averse to anyone here giving you information. If you're going to be so confident in your dismissive attitude, you should at least come to the table with a basic understanding of the topic.

It isn't being dismissive to ask if something is going on, which somebody else said was, and then to ask for an example of it.

[Lisnaholic]

This is a friendly forum with a pretty small membership, so I hope we can all get along ok together even when discussing a contentious topic like the Trump/Musk admin.
I think it's fair enough for J Jazz to ask for evidence of a claim that's made, but I also am very sympathetic to those who do extrapolate from what's already happening on the ground to what could possibly be happening soon: it's something I do myself all the time when I look at the actions and directions that the current admin is taking.

A core part of why this is a massive issue is because of the complete lack of due process going into people being scooped up and detained, not only within the US, but also people being sent from the US to international detainment sites like the CECOT mega-prison in El Salvador. No judges, no lawyers, no trials. Nothing. In many cases, we're also talking about potentially indefinite periods of detainment without any charges or trials. From what little has been found out about the people sent to CECOT, the only common thread is that they had tattoos with many having no evidence of gang affiliation or criminal records during their time in the US. This is the Executive branch and ICE acting unilaterally and completely side-stepping due process. Trump has made this possible through invocation of the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, which was used in such lovely historical instances like Japanese Internment.  The people being black bagged and sent off to detainment with no due process is not just limited to migrants, either.  With the Trump admin expanding the already very loose title of "terrorist" to include campus protestors (ie. Mahmoud Khalil) and people who key a Tesla, you do the math...

^ Thanks for these factual details, Aurora.

This is my take on the recent debate here, and as usual it's an analogy - this time the tired old one about frogs slowly boiling to death in a saucepan. In this analogy, some of us frogs are saying "We're boiling to death!" while other frogs may reply, "No, no! The temperature is uncomfortably hot and rising, but let's not exaggerate." If those more precise-minded frogs are right, that would be great: some checks and balances will intervene, the stove will be turned off and our worst fears will be seen as hyperbole. Personally, I don't see that happening until the House/Senate/Presidency are in the hands of the Dems.

Finally, as regards this thread, its very title is an invitation to debate, so I hope everyone will continue to feel free to contribute to it without worrying that they are being squeezed out.

[Lexi Darling]

I'm still on my hiatus but I just wanted to clear some things up, just to get a bit of closure on this hopefully.

First off, yes, I edited "deported" to have a more generalized and broadly accurate wording. I wanted to cover those who are being deported and also those being detained in prison camps. I'm referring to both, and more specifically that people, including US citizens, are being taken and detained without due process, which, as Auroras pointed out, is a major factor in this matter.

My comment on trans people being part of that was a reference to Elon Musk implying that he is blaming trans people for the "violence" against Teslas. I meant to reference the links in my post as being something where you could easily connect the dots from that to Trump saying he would deport he "violent terrorists" who attacked the Teslas, and edited my post to provide the additional link that showed Nancy Mace also joining in on blaming trans people for the attacks (her tweet was also reposted by Musk). Trump/Musk/MAGA etc do not need to straight up say "we're going to deport trans people"; they're pretty clearly implying it by saying "deport the violent terrorists" and "trans people are violent terrorists". That was what I was referring to.

And as for the online opinions, I was referencing a couple things; one being the fact that a French politician's phone was searched when he was trying to enter the country, and he was denied entry due to anti-Trump posts he'd made. That combined with the fact that people involved in protests are also being singled out by Trump gave me the impression that this could easily lead to anti-Trump social media posts being factored in somehow at some point. But yes, that was more of a "thing to be concerned about" than "this happening right now".

And for the record I was not assuming that JJ is a Trump supporter.

I think that should be everything, I hope this clears things up. I'm going to try to go back to my hiatus now; I just checked the site briefly and saw there was some confusion going around.

[Auroras In Ice]

You're not having the same discussion as me. I haven't argued that people haven't been detained, I haven't argued about due process or lack of, I haven't argued about lack of trials or lawyers or whatever else. Please don't try to change the discussion.

The discussion was about whether people are being deported for being trans or for posting opinions online. It wasn't about whether people are being detained for protesting. Have people been deported for those reasons I just mentioned, or has Trump said he will do that?

I was responding to what I quoted. The processes through which this is all happening is actually incredibly important to what you're saying especially regarding what umbrellas the admin is using to sweep everything under. Nobody will be deported or detained for the explicit reason that they are trans or whatever, it will all be twisted and shoehorned into "terrorism" or some other "threat to national security". The Alien Enemies Act was used to specifically detain Japanese Americans in WWII, but of course race was not stated directly stated as a reason (at least not at first) even though everyone knew why these people were really being targeted. Context and nuance matters even for a question as directed and specific as yours because it can change the interpretation of what we're all watching unfold quite a bit. There's very good reasons for people to be extrapolating things as they are.

Anyhow, yes I believe Chameleon already linked an instance where a French researcher was booted out of the country for having anti-Trump posts online. Importantly, this was also justified as potential "terrorism". That's the through-line I wanted to highlight in my reply. Also, yes, an LGBTQ man was also scooped up and dumped in El Salvador. Not sure if they are trans or not, but it is what it is.

https://www.washingtonblade.com/2025/03/20/lgbtq-asylum-seeker-forcibly-removed-from-us-sent-to-el-salvador/

There's also cases of people being detained for weeks, transferred around to different facilities, and booted with no official reason given at all. Point being that everything is already on the table for locking people up or sending them away.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/mar/18/canadian-actor-jasmine-mooney-detained-mexico-border

It isn't being dismissive to ask if something is going on, which somebody else said was, and then to ask for an example of it.

I get that and that's not unfair at all, but I think the broader discussion going on is about a pretty clear and awful trajectory on which the Trump admin is moving along with things escalating very quickly. The bigger picture has become so clear that combing the sands for precise examples then using those to handwave away concerns over the whole thing if things don't match exactly to those just rubs people wrong. Gotta see the forest for the trees and all that. What's also clear is that the few cases that people have been able to dredge up information on and get out into the media are just the tip of a very big iceberg that's growing faster than we can see it grow.



Side note for all: Still new to this long-standing community and getting to know the dynamics between people. I also have a tendency to come off spicier than I like to at times, but there's no disrespect intended. For online discussions, I'm pretty selective with what I engage with so even if we butt heads it's because I think you said something interesting and valuable.

[Lucem Ferre]

Hyperbole vs pedantry, the never ending battle.

[DJChameleon]

I did make my stance clear on Israel a while back:

Does that sound like something someone would say if they thought being pro-Palestinian was the same as being pro-Hamas? Also shows your "you conflate criticism of Israel with antisemitism" for the nonsense that was as well.

This Zionists thing is such a proxy for antisemitic hatred lol.

You parrot a lot of the same talking points as someone that believes that even if you didn't specifically say.

Talking heads say being anti Zionists is the same as being antisemitic and they also view pro Palestinian protestors as bring pro Hamas and pro terrorist. That's why they went after Maumould Khalid and took away his green card even though he's been living here in the states for years and is now in the process of being deported.

[jimmy jazz]

@Auroras In Ice so basically what we're talking about is, it hasn't actually happened nor have they said it will happen, but it might happen because the groundwork has been put in place and it's there to be used in a particular way. I am grateful that Lexi has now made it clear since I posted that she partly meant that. It is imo a bit of a stretch to just go from that to 'they're already deporting people' for posting the wrong opinions or for being trans.

I agree it is important to be aware of the bigger picture and where it could potentially lead but it is also important to be factual. 'Denying people entry for dubious reasons' would have been more accurate. And once again, no I'm not condoning any of this.

You parrot a lot of the same talking points as someone that believes that even if you didn't specifically say.

You said I did specifically say it. From my "own mouth" were your exact words. Now you're backtracking. Are you going to accept that I didn't say it and drop it?

Talking heads say being anti Zionists is the same as being antisemitic and they also view pro Palestinian protestors as bring pro Hamas and pro terrorist. That's why they went after Maumould Khalid and took away his green card even though he's been living here in the states for years and is now in the process of being deported.

It doesn't matter what other people say.

Some people do conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism but it is also true that some people hide behind the "I'm just against Zionism" argument to mask their antisemitism. Both of these can be true at once. As it can also be true that you can criticise Israel and be against what they're doing without being antisemitic.

You lied. You knew full well I didn't say what you claimed.

[Marie Monday]

Cheers to aurora for contributing so gracefully and patiently to the discussion, that was a good post. An example for us all, me included 👍

[Buck_Mulligan]

Hyperbole vs pedantry, the never ending battle.

Please bring back the old avatar. It was by far the best on SCD.

[Saulaac]

I remember David Icke talking about FEMA camps several years ago and thinking what on earth is he talking about? He was going on about camps being set up for those who would be deemed against the system. I was thinking, why would there be the need to set up camps to house people who are supposedly against the system in a democracy?

But we need to be aware of how the "Overton Window" or goalposts can move quite quickly.

David Icke, despite being a not bad goalie, is not Jesus either, so it's just his opinion versus everyone else's I guess.

[Buck_Mulligan]

I haven't heard that name in a while. Prompted me to look him up. "I am the son of the godhead". Seems pretty Jesus-like to me. Himself and RFK Jr. would make a formidable team. Edit to add, ICKE doesn't have a  clue what the purpose of FEMA camps is.