Has anyone noticed how misosgynistic Pink Floyd's "The Wall" is?

[Trollheart]

I don't know if it's just Waters, but there isn't a single sympathetic female character on that album, and there are only really three. Early on we meet his Mother, a controlling, borderline psychotic woman who coddles her son and wants him never to leave her, controlling him to the extent that when he meets a girl he worries "Mother is she good enough.../Will she break my heart?" Then the wife, of whom we hear little but the general impression is that she's a bitch who left him, although it is mentioned in "Don't Leave Me Now" that he was abusive to her, or wants to be, since she has shacked up with someone else as he learns (or at least deduces) from the telephone operator at the end of "Young Lust". She then spits venom at him during "The Trial" - "You should have talked to me more often than you did/Have you broken any homes up lately?" etc. I guess you can add in then the groupie in "One of My Turns", who is a throwaway figure, there to satisfy his cravings, both sexual and homicidal, and is treated as an object. And if you want to really stretch it then we have the voice of the telephone operator herself and finally the "fat and psychopathic wives" in "The Best Years of Our Lives".

Sure, rock and roll by its nature can be, and often is, very female unfriendly if not outright misogynistic, but it kind of shocked me when I really listened to The Wall to find that there are no positive female roles there. Not only that, the protagonist takes no responsibility for his actions, blaming everyone from his schoolteachers and doctors to his mother and wife/girlfriend for his situation, till inevitably it all comes tumbling down upon him, something I suppose you might characterise as the weight of all his insecurities and doubts and fears (and perhaps the truth he avoids) crushing him.

He actually carries this on into his last album with Floyd, The Final Cut, when the bogeywoman is (quite rightly but still) Maggie Thatcher, and if I remember properly there are only two women (other than her) in that album, one being the fighter pilot's wife in "The Hero's Return", whom he tries to wake up and have a conversation about his experiences in the war with (she's a silent figure, no lyric for her, so just a sounding board, and again a one, or indeed no-dimensional figure) and the woman in "Southampton Dock" who, for once, IS a sympathetic (even remove the sym) figure, but utterly powerless as "she bravely waves the boys goodbye again." We have his wife again in the title track, where he worries she will leave him if she really knew him ("If I opened my heart to you/ Showed you my weak side/ What would you do?/ Would you sell your story to Rolling Stone?/ Would you take the children away/ And leave me alone?")

I can't speak for the other boys - but I think most of Floyd's other albums are mostly male-oriented in terms of lyrical matter, or neutral, could be wrong - but Roger does seem to have a really poor view of women, at least in these two albums. Not, I suppose, that that necessarily makes him an actual misogynist, but it must rankle with female fans who listen to the album, I would have thought.

Of course, as usual, I'm more than likely just making too much of things that are probably not supposed to be probed this deeply, but you know me: I do love over-analysing things. Just be interested to see if anyone else thinks the same, or has a contrary opinion.

For what it's worth, I level the same accusation at The Eagles. Yeah. Think about it.

[Lisnaholic]

^ Great post, Trollheart !

Yep, when I first paid attention to the lyrics of The Wall, I thought, "Here's a guy who feels isolated and screwed up because he grew up in a matriarchy". In fact I knew a guy who matched that same description, and as he was a big Floyd fan, I mentioned this idea to him, but he shrugged it off with a kind of combination snigger/sneer. In the context, I took that to mean, "I really don't want to be psychoanalysed in a pub by a drunken 22-year-old. Leave me to enjoy The Wall in peace." Because of that negative response, I  think I've kept my opinion to myself ever since, so it is with relief and recognition that I read your post, Trolls.

I hadn't put all the pieces of RW's misogyny together, as you have, but in The Wall, The Final Cut and briefly in Amused To Death, he keeps returning to the theme of his dad, who died in the war when RW was a small boy. That, I presume, is how he came to grow up in a matriarchy, which perhaps, in turn, led to the misogyny that you have identified.

[Trollheart]

Thanks for the reply, Lisna. I think it's probably important to allow for the likelihood that his writing may not necessarily be a reflection of his personality or views on women - I watched The Wall Live in Berlin and it was interspersed with vignettes of his road trip to France I think it was, to see where his father is buried. His kids were with him and though some were girls I didn't see any noticeable bias, yet it does have to be said that there was no mention either of his mother or grandmother. But I understand the difference between fictional misogyny and the real thing: I wrote what could be considered a very misogynistic short story called "Fury", but (I hope) I'm not a misogynist. So it can be a case of artistic licence, if you will. Nevertheless, I don't see why he couldn't have had at least one sympathetic female figure in The Wall. Wouldn't it have been nice to have had a hand reaching through the wall at the end and pulling him to safety - saved by the love of a good woman? Guess he didn't want to go down that route, but still.

I suppose we could have a whole conversation over who's the most misogynistic artist, though as I say, Don and Glenn and the lads come in a close second for me.

[grindy]

Thanks for the reply, Lisna. I think it's probably important to allow for the likelihood that his writing may not necessarily be a reflection of his personality or views on women - I watched The Wall Live in Berlin and it was interspersed with vignettes of his road trip to France I think it was, to see where his father is buried. His kids were with him and though some were girls I didn't see any noticeable bias, yet it does have to be said that there was no mention either of his mother or grandmother. But I understand the difference between fictional misogyny and the real thing: I wrote what could be considered a very misogynistic short story called "Fury", but (I hope) I'm not a misogynist. So it can be a case of artistic licence, if you will. Nevertheless, I don't see why he couldn't have had at least one sympathetic female figure in The Wall. Wouldn't it have been nice to have had a hand reaching through the wall at the end and pulling him to safety - saved by the love of a good woman? Guess he didn't want to go down that route, but still.

I suppose we could have a whole conversation over who's the most misogynistic artist, though as I say, Don and Glenn and the lads come in a close second for me.

Yeah, I always assumed it's supposed to show how screwed up Pink is, but wouldn't be surprised if this is also an unintended glimpse into Roger's psyche.

[Lisnaholic]

Trollheart: You make a good point that there can be a big difference between the songs (or in your case, the stories) and the man, and I guess I wasn't making that distinction. Still, in rock music, I don't think we expect or want the same kind of fictional inventiveness that we get in writing: I suppose people do sing about attitudes/experiences that are a long way from their own, so perhaps it's wishful thinking on my part, the idea that singers sing about things that resonate with their own feelings.
(*checks to see which member of The Who was a deaf, dumb and blind kid*)
 

Yeah, I always assumed it's supposed to show how screwed up Pink is, but wouldn't be surprised if this is also an unintended glimpse into Roger's psyche.

^ Yep, I have always felt that The Wall comes partly from RW's experience, or from watching his friend Syd falling apart.

When I read what TH  wrote about those video clips of RW in France with his daughters, I realised that it's unfair to paint RW as a full-on, full-time misogynist. If The Wall comes across that way, here's something that redresses the balance a little: his song Late Home Tonight starts and ends with brief but sympathetic mentions of women:-

Standing at the window
A farmer's wife in Oxfordshire
Glances at the clock, it's nearly time for tea
She doesn't see the phantom in the hedgerow dip its wings
Doesn't hear the engine sing
...
And in Tripoli
Another ordinary wife
Stares at the dripping tap her old man hadn't time to fix
Too busy mixing politics and rhythm in the street below

..and on that same album is this song, a homage to a girl who died at Tiananmen Square

[Trollheart]

Yes i admit that, from what I recall of it, Amused to Death doesn't have the same bleak view of women, and as you say Lisna, he even pays tribute to some of them, though also in fairness it's more concerned with the injustices in the world and how politicians and leaders play with people's lives. On the other side of the coin, you can't look at the (original, not censored) album cover for his first solo album, The Pros and Cons of Hitch-hiking, without thinking this guy sees women as objects. Then there's Radio KAOS, which if again I remember correctly doesn't have a single woman in it (other than a guest slot by Maggie right near the end) and is, again, exclusively based on male characters.

[Guybrush]

Yeah, I always assumed it's supposed to show how screwed up Pink is, but wouldn't be surprised if this is also an unintended glimpse into Roger's psyche.

This has been my thought too. Pink isn't a good man.

[Janszoon]

I can definitely see the misogyny, but I would also say that it also doesn't cast men in a particularly good light eithe—just tyrants, weasels, and a literal ass.

[Trollheart]

That's true: it's not exclusively misogynistic. But I still find that there's more a case of "this is why it happened" with the men, and it's pretty much all blamed on women. Even the cruel headmaster, who thrashes and jeers at the kids, is supposed to be that way because of his domineering wife, bringing it all back to a case of the abused becoming the abuser. As I said, the protagonist (don't like calling him Pink, even if that's the accepted name) blames just about everything that happens to him on his mother and wife - and, obliquely, on the death of his father - so even his slide into madness and debauchery is attributed to the drugs he has been "forced" to use, thanks to the mess he's in, thanks to the women in his life. The female characters don't get this pass: they're just bitches, one and all.

[Guybrush]

That's true: it's not exclusively misogynistic. But I still find that there's more a case of "this is why it happened" with the men, and it's pretty much all blamed on women. Even the cruel headmaster, who thrashes and jeers at the kids, is supposed to be that way because of his domineering wife, bringing it all back to a case of the abused becoming the abuser. As I said, the protagonist (don't like calling him Pink, even if that's the accepted name) blames just about everything that happens to him on his mother and wife - and, obliquely, on the death of his father - so even his slide into madness and debauchery is attributed to the drugs he has been "forced" to use, thanks to the mess he's in, thanks to the women in his life. The female characters don't get this pass: they're just bitches, one and all.

I agree with @Janszoon and your post as well, @Trollheart

Not an exciting comment, but I think you figured this one out 🙂

I will say I have nothing against the groupie. At least I can't remember her doing anything bad. She's just excited about his apartment and stuff.

[Lisnaholic]

Were Pink Floyd all grumbling about their unhappy encounters with women? The song Summer '68 has a nasty, taunting edge to it, though afaik it was writ by Rick Wright:
 "From your bed I gained a day and lost a bloody year". And who's fault was that, Mr.Wright? In your lyrics I hear you putting all the blame on the girl, and none on the guy, who, by the end of the song, just moves on to Charlotte Pringle, quite possibly to repeat the same cavalier conduct all over again. The uncool, bitter vibe of the whole song has always made it the low-point on Atom Heart Mother imo.

I will say I have nothing against the groupie. At least I can't remember her doing anything bad. She's just excited about his apartment and stuff.

^ "Oh, wow, look at this tub! Wanna take a baa-aath?!"