I guess I'm a NIMBY: Am I a horrible person, or how do you feel about being one?

[Lisnaholic]

Sorry, TH and Guybrush: I didn't see either of your latest posts, in which you cover much the same ground as me, but with more detail and eloquence.

That's noble of you and your family, Guybrush, to be lending a helping hand to the new-comers in your area. Those activities you mention must be doing so much towards a smooth transition for new arrivals, which in turn will reduce criminality and division. You guys would totally be the heroes in that growing genre of books that I have been dipping into: real life stories of refugees. Here are two good ones:-

     

[Trollheart]

You know something, Lisna, you would be surprised. I don't for a moment imagine there aren't people gathering followers on Twitter or X or Z or whatever the hell Musk wants it called now, Facebook or Meta or Crystal Meth or whatever Zuck wants to call it now, marshalling opposition and arranging protesters to head to a godforsaken wasteland to protest against its being used. It's not even that these people think, oh that factory/building/abandoned school etc could be used for this, they just don't want it used for that. To their minds, I feel, they'd be happier buildings remain empty rather than be used as refugee centres. So sadly, once it's on the island of Ireland I think these people will have a problem with any area being slated for use.

As for the hotels, well yes accommodation is provided but I don't know about meals. I'm sure they're not letting them starve, but at the same time I doubt the refugees can order up room service whenever they want it, so I imagine that social welfare payment (soon to be cut by about seven-eighths) has to go towards feeding themselves and their families. You won't get much at Just Eat or Deliveroo or even MacDonalds for 38 Euro! Maybe you might manage two, three meals for two or three people, once a day, but you'd be stretching it. I just don't see how they expect anyone, Irish or not, to make it on such a piddling amount. I mean, my little bit of shopping costs that every week, and that's before I pay rent and utilities, phone, internet, Sky and various other bills.

There's definitely a faction here - small I think, but loud and growing - that would smile very much on a proposal to deport every immigrant and refugee from Ireland. That will never happen, but that's the depth of hatred these people have. You could almost say they resent these unfortunates' right to exist at all. Shades of Germany in 1933, no?

Oh, and before anyone says it, I know.

[Trollheart]

And so it continues

Further arson at Clonmel site

More tents at Grand Canal after barricades erected

Yesterday



Today

[Trollheart]

Proof that not only are they "comin' over here, takin' our jobs" (dey took ourrr jeerrrbs!) but they are much, much bigger than us! Surely the advance scout of an invasion party? we must stop them now, before it's too late! Won't someone please think of the children???



Little Amal comes to Dublin

[Trollheart]

And in other, more serious news

Arson attack on building in Tallaght  

[jimmy jazz]

Serious question Trollheart and I am not trying to piss you off.

How many buildings have been attacked like this now? And are you surprised?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I remember when we were discussing the reputation of British people. I always said the Irish are no different to us when it comes to acting the twat, and the response to this is just proving me right.

[Trollheart]

It's a fair point. I don't think I ever claimed we Irish were perfect, law-abiding people. I think when you're getting that from is that I said our sports supporters always behave when abroad, and they do, whereas the English "fans" (I place that in quotes because as you know and I accept, we're talking here not about real fans but those sent to agitate and cause trouble, e.g. the likes of Combat 19 or The National Front or whoever it is these days) have a less than stellar reputation.

In terms of buildings burned or attempted arson, I don't know the figures but I would be prepared to bet that at least seventy percent have met an "unfortunate end", and I think we're only lucky nobody, so far, has been sleeping rough in those buildings. Not that, I assume, that is something taken into consideration by the people who perpetrate these acts. The latest seems to have been initiated by a fucking pipe bomb, which I think takes this to another level.

I'd be happy - okay, happy isn't the right word - to admit that we Irish are as racist as anyone. The thing is, we act poorly when at home (not all of us, of course, but a minority which is sadly growing) but to some not at all acceptable extent, you're talking almost about a form of territorialism here - this is our country, stay out etc - but when we go abroad, generally speaking, we don't cause trouble. And while I freely accept this is not the case with every English person, there is a history of English people being loud, drunk and arrogant abroad, and racist outside of their homeland, as if they (I'm sure this doesn't include you, nor the majority of English people) think they still have an empire and everyone is part of it.

[Saulaac]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll share some perspective from Norway.

My basic position is generally immigrant and refugee friendly. I believe most of them want a good life here. They want to contribute to society. They sometimes want to enjoy the freedom and opportunities Norwegian society offers them, especially women from countries where women don't have the same opportunities as men. I think we're generally morally obliged to help people.

I've met a lot of refugees and we have immigrant friends, also from Ukraine. In 2015, with the war in Syria and other conflicts, Norway took in a lot of refugees. Hotels were converted. At that time, I collected a bunch of old laptops from the municipality, like from where I worked and from a couple of schools. They were mostly crappy, but I set them up with Lubuntu and we delivered them to the refugee centers. I also gave away my old Xbox 360 and my entire collection of movies and games.. I hope they like Evil Dead.

Around the same time, my wife and my sister had joined a women's society that was mixing Norwegian women with immigrant women and while it was mostly for women, I came along on trips and helped out. We got into contact with a lot of people that way, like we've been invited for Eritrean new years celebration, befriended a Muslim single mom of three kids whom we all had over for Christmas celebrations one year, people from Ethiopia, from Turkey etc. My sister is a professor of Sociology and has been working some with how immigrants are met in the Norwegian system (it's not always easy for them) and through that, we've also helped out a little and it's only a couple of weeks or so since I took some time out of work to help someone out.

A lot of people are sceptical about taking in immigrants or refugees. They may think they're all a certain way and can all be described by certain broad strokes. I think they're often judged unfairly. The people we've met have unanimously been hard working, good people who wanted to make it here.

I sometimes read that they cost too much. I think getting someone who's already an engineer, doctor, knows construction - and mostly just needs to learn the language and then can get straight to work - is a huge boon to society and less costly than growing a new engineer from a baby. Actually, I already know that Norwegians on average take more money from the state than they give back. The education, health and other services are too expensive. People don't pay enough back in taxes to make up for it. In comparison, immigrants can actually potentially become tax payers with relatively little investment. It's a better bet.

I sometimes read they are criminal. They are a little more criminal on average, but I do think this worry stems from fear more than anything else. There's never been any obvious criminal element to the people I've met. I think in some culrure,s, there's more illegal social control and things that don't bleed over to society at large. And yes, as a demographic they are more criminal. But it's also important to remember that crime has gone down steadily for a long time and the streets are safer than ever - and much safer now than, say, they were in the year 2000. When there's news about murder, it's usually full-bred white Norwegians going crazy. There's an element of truth here, but it's basically exaggerated.

At worst, I think being very sceptical and dystopic about immigration could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all agree integration is extremely important for immigrants to succeed and to become contributors to society. But it's not their responsibility alone. We create the system that is supposed to help them on their way. We may be the employers who can give them a chance at a job. We can be fellow human beings and accept them into our communities and take care not to talk about them in a way that would cause distance, outsiderness and a feeling of not being accepted. People being overly sceptical will help create barriers to integration, like prevent them from getting Norwegian friends, from getting a job, causing resentment etc. Regardless of how we feel about policy, we need to be accepting and treat people well.

Something I absolutely hate is when brown skinned, young people who are born in Norway don't feel like they're Norwegian and talk about themselves like they're not Norwegian because they feel like they don't belong. Then we've failed them as a society and I think we all have a responsibility to prevent that from happening.

That's a great post Guybrush, with a lot of interesting experiences. There's a lot to think about, and I picked up on your two points in bold above. Particularly regarding immigrants who come across as hating their host country. I remember the news articles regarding the New Year celebrations in Cologne, Germany in 2015-2016, including fights and a helluva lot of sexual assaults on women (approx. 1200 reported cases to the police). Wiki has quite a long entry on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%80%9316_New_Year%27s_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany.

For example: "By 4 January 2016, German media reports stated that, in Cologne, the perpetrators had mostly been described by the victims and witnesses as being "North African", "Arab", "dark-skinned", and "foreign". On 5 January 2016, the German government and the Cologne police speculated that the attacks might have been organized.[15][16][17] However, by 21 January, the government of North Rhine-Westphalia declared that there were no indications of premeditated organized attacks,[18] and on 11 February, the new Cologne police chief stated the same. Instead, the Cologne police chief suggested that the perpetrators had come from countries where such sexual assaults by groups of men against women are common.[19] That suggestion was confirmed in a Federal Criminal Police Office report in June 2016, which also identified five more factors contributing to the occurrence of the attacks: group pressure, absence of police intervention, frustrations of migrants, disinhibition caused by alcohol and/or drug use, and disinhibition due to lack of social ties with indigenous German society."

I obvs don't know how many of these guys were first or second generation "North African" or "Arab" immigrants (for want of a better word), but it does seem that the losers in that certain culture viewed women of another culture in an inappropriate way. Or at least, they were totally ignorant how to act decently in modern society.

This was also at a time when the 2015 Charlie Hebdo and Bataclan shootings were quite fresh in French people's minds, so ordinary folk were like "here we go again".

Growing up, it wasn't uncommon to hear about wolf-whistling bricklayers, or footie/rugby lads on a night out in town singing "Get your tits out for the lads!". That was put down to banter (albeit probably aided by alcohol and camaraderie).  Was Cologne banter?

[Trollheart]

I'd be inclined to think that women reporting serious cases of assault was more than banter. I, too, grew up in a male-dominated era where such comments as you posted were viewed not only as "all right" or "normal" but almost if you were the hypothetical bricklayer NOT whistling at a woman, you'd be seen as weird, or maybe gay. It would also be true to say (sorry ladies) that at that time, it wasn't actively discouraged by a large portion of the female population either, though whether that had to do more with a "this is how it is and don't make waves" idea or a "you'll whistle at her but not me? What's wrong with me?" thing than actual outrage I couldn't say. Doubtless, there were those who hated it, but even then, other than a snarled retort (with probably choice language and speculations about the dimensions, or lack of, of the guys' privates and/or brain) not much they could do about it. Police would laugh and say "that's how it is love."

But I feel you can't equate that with what apparently happened in Germany, or any sexual assault, or attempt at same. Banter is something entirely different, and while I wouldn't be one to cast aspersions, it is well known that males in some countries not only view women as objects, but wouldn't even speak to them, acknowledge them, never mind banter with them. Plus, the language barrier? Can't see it personally now.