Something Completely Different

Right now in the UK there is a fuss happening regarding the ownership of so-called dangerous dogs and whether they should be banned.

This is a reaction to the latest dog attack in Birmingham where an XL Bully attacked an 11 year old girl and then two men who tried to defend her:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-66780321

The footage is online if you wish to search for it. Fortunately this time nobody died but it will give you an idea of the size and power of these dogs.

So do you think they should be banned? What is your experience with these and/or similar dog breeds? Is the problem at the other end of the lead, or is it a bit of both?

So when I was in the program I worked at 2 different animal shelters over the course of 2-3 years.  My entire time I dealt primarily with dogs.

The majority of dogs who end up in the shelter are either pits or mutts with pit mixed in somehow. 

There are 2 basic reasons why pits get such a bad rap.

1) the owners.
There are a lot of people who specifically want pits because it's seen as a bad ass dog to have,  and as such they encourage the pit to act aggressive.  I've been walking down the street in the hood plenty of time to find an angry pit chained to a post outside some shifty house. Just trying to do every thing he can to break that chain and get in your ass. People do that shit on purpose for security. That is not even to mention the dog fighting rings that pretty much exclusively fight pits. That's somewhat more rare but still common enough to be a noticeable factor.
2) they are built to fight
While in my experience pits aren't necessarily more aggressive than other breeds,  if they do turn on you they can do a lot of damage.  They will not let go of something once they clamp down.  Once they get a hold of you,  good luck getting it off of you.  I knew one guy in the program who damn near had PTSD from this one pit at the shelter latching on to his arm and wouldn't let go.  Another guy came up trying to get the dog off and was punching it square in the face to get it to release and it would just growl. When he came back from the hospital he had gaping holes in his arms that looked almost like bullet wounds.

But personally the only dog that ever attacked me was an aging husky that was going wirey. I'm perfectly comfortable with pits for the most part because you can usually read them pretty easily if they are aggressive.  Like an a aggressive pit is usually very overtly and outwardly aggressive.  There's no mystery to it.

QuoteThat is not even to mention the dog fighting rings that pretty much exclusively fight pits. That's somewhat more rare but still common enough to be a noticeable factor.

When I was at college I used to speak to one of the lads on the walk to the building in the mornings. He'd talk about new dogs he had got and say they were pussies and was getting rid of it. I thought he was talking shit and boasting like people do to impress others.

One day he was no longer in the lessons and other lads were saying he has been kicked out for saying he beats his dogs with sticks. I saw him in the paper a few months after as he'd been busted for being in a dog fighting ring.

I know the shithole where this XL Bully went mad and it wouldn't surprise me if it was raised for that reason. It definitely goes on. And even aside from that, there are endless amounts of people who get these muscle dogs for the same reasons you just described.

So anyway do you think they should be banned? I think you're leaning toward no.

I disagree with banning breeds from ownership but I am in full support of restrictions on rentals and such.

People are the main problem. Even the friendliest and most docile breeds dogs will act unpredictably when they feel insecure, and the majority of dog owners don't concern themselves with being GOOD dog owners.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 11, 2023, 08:51 PMWhen I was at college I used to speak to one of the lads on the walk to the building in the mornings. He'd talk about new dogs he had got and say they were pussies and was getting rid of it. I thought he was talking shit and boasting like people do to impress others.

One day he was no longer in the lessons and other lads were saying he has been kicked out for saying he beats his dogs with sticks. I saw him in the paper a few months after as he'd been busted for being in a dog fighting ring.

I know the shithole where this XL Bully went mad and it wouldn't surprise me if it was raised for that reason. It definitely goes on. And even aside from that, there are endless amounts of people who get these muscle dogs for the same reasons you just described.

So anyway do you think they should be banned? I think you're leaning toward no.

yeah, no I don't agree with banning them.  They're incredibly common dogs here. 

Tbh working at the animal shelter made me feel like if anything all pet ownership should be banned. People have consistently demonstrated their inability to responsibly own pets to the point where not only is every city I've ever been to overrun with stray dogs and cats, but now there are a ton of invasive species in Florida that started out as people's pets.

As well as the alarming video in jimmy jazz's OP, there are these UK statistics:-

QuoteTen people died because of dog bite injuries in England and Wales last year.

Numbers of attacks are rising. There there were 8,819 admissions to hospitals in England with dog bites last year. There were 4,699 in 2007.

Four dog breeds are banned in the UK - the Pit bull terrier, the Japanese tosa, the Dogo Argentino and the Fila Brasileiro

I'd say yes, ban the American bully XL - even the name is creepy.

In most cities there are too many dogs, too many irresponsible pet owners. I'm a firm supporter of the notion that an essential element of freedom is the ability to walk our streets without fear. Here in Mexico, I have been barked at, lunged at, and (once) bitten by dogs in the street. I've spoken with schoolkids who are afraid to walk down specific streets because of the dogs in them: what's that about?! When I was a kid, we felt safe playing in the streets, as long as we watched out for the cars, but now, little by little, street by street and kid by kid, dogs are snapping away at that freedom. So I say the more banned breeds the better.
Yours sincerely,
Angry Pedestrian 

There was a guy on GMB saying that 70% of the deaths caused by dogs in this country now are because of this one breed.

The argument that it's down to the owner only makes sense up to a point imo. These dogs are so dangerous it's a mixture of both. If you ban this one breed, they'll move on to something else and then you are back to square one so I dunno. Maybe it needs to become very difficult to own any sort of dog. License/criminal background check.

This owner definitely needs banning. As well as putting down before he or his dog kill someone:

https://twitter.com/BullyWatchUK/status/1690256010995171329

How do you stop people like this owning dogs?

Forget the dog.  He is posing way more danger with his car in that video.

Quote from: Lisnaholic on Sep 12, 2023, 04:12 PMI'm a firm supporter of the notion that an essential element of freedom is the ability to walk our streets without fear.

Good point.

Tbh I'm guessing the stray dog situation in Mexico is probably way worse than it is here. But I think they might have bigger fish to fry down there.

^ :laughing:
That's true, Jwb. In Mexico I've never once seen the "Dog Pound" trucks that I used to see on American cartoons like Top Cat and Tom and Jerry, and which I therefore assume are a regular part of the American street scene.
Scenes of every-day life in an American city:-

(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/3a/0b/8a/3a0b8aef7934d9c42be338d1f395a7c0.jpg)

BREAKING: Sunak has just banned them.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66818862

In very related news, 30 year old man killed by two dogs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795

Just down the road from here. That's concerning, it's never good when dogs kill but you expect it to be a small child. Not this time. I should add that where I'm from is scrote central where you see these Schwarzenegger dogs with their owners all the time so that will influence my opinion a bit. I'm glad they've banned these but the scrotes will move onto something else I bet.

How do you defend yourself when set upon by a dog? I could deal with a poodle or Jack Russell but what do you do with the XL Bully or similar?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 12, 2023, 07:51 PMThere was a guy on GMB saying that 70% of the deaths caused by dogs in this country now are because of this one breed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/419/965/86d.png)

That fucking meme 😂👌

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 15, 2023, 01:13 PMIn very related news, 30 year old man killed by two dogs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795

Just down the road from here. That's concerning, it's never good when dogs kill but you expect it to be a small child. Not this time. I should add that where I'm from is scrote central where you see these Schwarzenegger dogs with their owners all the time so that will influence my opinion a bit. I'm glad they've banned these but the scrotes will move onto something else I bet.

Yep, I saw that story about another poor guy killed. It's just terrible. Three-fifteen on a Thursday afternoon and you suddenly have to give up your life because someone has the irresponsible whim to keep killers dogs as pets. :(

As you say, the ban is at least a step in the right direction, but won't solve every problem.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 15, 2023, 01:13 PMHow do you defend yourself when set upon by a dog? I could deal with a poodle or Jack Russell but what do you do with the XL Bully or similar?

Not sure about that, but I did read up on how to live in peace with dogs ranging the streets:-

i) don't walk towards them, or face them eye-to-eye, which they may read as a challenge
ii) instead, tilt your body to the side so that you're pointing your shoulder at them, sending the message, "I'm not engaging with you"
iii) keep walking at a steady pace, either to pass them by, or if you are worried, executing a U-turn with as much dignity as you can muster in the circs
iv) resist the urge to run, as you may trigger their instinct to hunt down prey; anyway, it's not a race you'll win because dogs run (and fight) remarkably fast.

I know from experience that the bold is the hardest to do when a dog comes at you aggressively. 

I'm not firm on the right solution here - or even which solution I'd support. If we ban certain breeds, then what? Does that imply we're going to ban breeding them as well, and let them slowly disappear (at least from a given country)? In America, there are 18 million pit bulls - what do you do about all the people who already own them? We gonna institute an Australian style 'pit bull buyback' program? And then what? Shelters don't have the capacity for that many animals, so they'd be getting euthanized, most likely. The ones that the police decide not to induct in their K9 squads, that is.

I'm not a fan of the 'license all dog ownership' idea either. Because some breeds are dangerous and aggressive, we're gonna require licenses and background checks for pugs and poodles too? And then how do you handle/enforce private sales/gifts of dangerous dog breeds?

Owners are certainly part of the problem, but pits in particular have been bred by people for aggression and their fighting ability. We're largely responsible for their bad attitude. I can't believe there are so many people stupid enough to have pit bulls around their young children. And this goes for all dog owners, the amount of them that don't keep their dogs on leashes when they're outside never ceases to amaze me. My grandmother had a small pomeranian that she loved dearly - my Mom took the dog for a walk one morning, and the neighbors had two unleashed mastiffs in the yard that took the opportunity to maul the pomeranian, knocking my Mom on her ass. By the time the neighbors came out and got the situation stable, my grandmother's dog was dead. My Mom was horrified and my father was just thankful that my Mom was okay. The neighbors ended up just needing to pay a $200 fine, though they did offer to pay for all the vet fees with the pomeranian (cremation, etc).

That's a sad story about your grandmother, SGR. You don't mention it, but I suspect that also, after that incident, she was reluctant to go out for a while. That to me is the unseen cost of dog attacks: not just the victims, but their friends and family start worrying about going out. I'm thinking  not so much about your grandmother, but that 11-year-old UK girl who was attacked at a petrol station. Her family, all her classmates, and countless kids who saw the video of the attack must now feel inhibited about going out. That is really not good.

I haven't thought about how a ban gets implemented, but luckily I don't really have to: in Europe at least, local government has a way of working out those sorts of details to be more-or-less fair to everyone.
 

Quote from: SGR on Sep 15, 2023, 03:44 PMI'm not a fan of the 'license all dog ownership' idea either. Because some breeds are dangerous and aggressive, we're gonna require licenses and background checks for pugs and poodles too? And then how do you handle/enforce private sales/gifts of dangerous dog breeds?

For decades, Britain used to have a system of dog licensing. I don't know how much it was enforced *, or if there was a sliding scale to reflect size of animal, etc. Easy enough to write in exemptions for breeds "too small to bother about" if that's decided upon. Ditto, guide dogs or working farm dogs, I imagine.

 * = Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't enforced much, which is why it was abandoned. Does that defeat my own argument in favour of dog licensing? Not entirely, because of technological changes: easy enough today to have microchip license-implants in dogs, drones scanning the streets and Skynet lasers to zap unlicensed dogs. Problem solved!!

Quote from: Lisnaholic on Sep 15, 2023, 04:12 PMThat's a sad story about your grandmother, SGR. You don't mention it, but I suspect that also, after that incident, she was reluctant to go out for a while. That to me is the unseen cost of dog attacks: not just the victims, but their friends and family start worrying about going out. I'm thinking  not so much about your grandmother, but that 11-year-old UK girl who was attacked at a petrol station. Her family, all her classmates, and countless kids who saw the video of the attack must now feel inhibited about going out. That is really not good.

I haven't thought about how a ban gets implemented, but luckily I don't really have to: in Europe at least, local government has a way of working out those sorts of details to be more-or-less fair to everyone.
 
For decades, Britain used to have a system of dog licensing. I don't know how much it was enforced *, or if there was a sliding scale to reflect size of animal, etc. Easy enough to write in exemptions for breeds "too small to bother about" if that's decided upon. Ditto, guide dogs or working farm dogs, I imagine.

 * = Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't enforced much, which is why it was abandoned. Does that defeat my own argument in favour of dog licensing? Not entirely, because of technological changes: easy enough today to have microchip license-implants in dogs, drones scanning the streets and Skynet lasers to zap unlicensed dogs. Problem solved!!

Yeah, there's a definite trauma impact of dog attacks, especially on young kids. When I was really young, my Dad brought me to a friend's house - and this guy had this huge Great Dane - and this thing was a mostly gentle creature - but he immediately pounced on me and had me pinned to the ground. He didn't attack me, and I'm guessing it was his way of showing affection or perhaps how he met new people, but I was maybe 3 or 4 at the time - this dog was probably 4 or 5 times bigger than I was - so while it evoked laughter out of my Dad, it evoked terror out of me.

There was another incident at some relatives graduation party when I was really young. And for some reason, their stupid fucking anklebiter of a dog decided to chase after me through their spacious yard, yipping, biting at my ankle and crotch. I was obviously in distress, was not enjoying it, and wanted it to stop but again, it was a laughing matter for those around me. If it happened today, I swear I'd punt that thing.

Thankfully, I've never had a really violent interaction with a dog, but my early childhood experiences were enough to put me off of them. I never grew up with a family dog either, so I never established a bond like many do with dogs. I'm not afraid of them or anxious around them, I just normally don't feel much when I see them. My wife is always "Awwww, look at the cute puppy, who's a good boy? Who's a good boy" (she grew up with a dog), and I just feel totally detached when I'm around them.

There's a host of other reasons dogs aren't really to my preference. But I won't bother getting into that. Needless to say, I'm not a dog person.

I'm sorry to hear about those two experiences when you were small, SGR, and particularly sorry that the adults around weren't more aware of just how scary it must have been for you. Maybe they thought it was a bit of how-boys-grow-up tough love, but actually it was them, letting a situation get out of hand and then not stopping it. But that's one of the issues with dogs - they can respond in an instant in unpredictable ways and when they do, the victims/owners can be caught off-guard.

I am also sad to read about your traumatic childhood experiences with those dogs, SGR.  I am sorry - but the adults present should have been protecting you physically and emotionally, not laughing at your expense.  It's not a laughing matter.

My uncle had most of one cheek area gouged by a neighbor's German shepherd as a child.  He still has the scars to prove it.  He went to pet the dog, and it turned on him. 

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 15, 2023, 01:13 PMIn very related news, 30 year old man killed by two dogs:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795

Just down the road from here. That's concerning, it's never good when dogs kill but you expect it to be a small child. Not this time. I should add that where I'm from is scrote central where you see these Schwarzenegger dogs with their owners all the time so that will influence my opinion a bit. I'm glad they've banned these but the scrotes will move onto something else I bet.

How do you defend yourself when set upon by a dog? I could deal with a poodle or Jack Russell but what do you do with the XL Bully or similar?

ain't nothing to do really if you are without a weapon lol.  Try your best I guess.  That dog will fuck you up.

Patrice used to say pits look like walking sharks :laughing:

Quote from: SGR on Sep 15, 2023, 03:44 PMI'm not firm on the right solution here - or even which solution I'd support. If we ban certain breeds, then what? Does that imply we're going to ban breeding them as well, and let them slowly disappear (at least from a given country)? In America, there are 18 million pit bulls - what do you do about all the people who already own them? We gonna institute an Australian style 'pit bull buyback' program? And then what? Shelters don't have the capacity for that many animals, so they'd be getting euthanized, most likely. The ones that the police decide not to induct in their K9 squads, that is.

I'm not a fan of the 'license all dog ownership' idea either. Because some breeds are dangerous and aggressive, we're gonna require licenses and background checks for pugs and poodles too? And then how do you handle/enforce private sales/gifts of dangerous dog breeds?

Owners are certainly part of the problem, but pits in particular have been bred by people for aggression and their fighting ability. We're largely responsible for their bad attitude. I can't believe there are so many people stupid enough to have pit bulls around their young children. And this goes for all dog owners, the amount of them that don't keep their dogs on leashes when they're outside never ceases to amaze me. My grandmother had a small pomeranian that she loved dearly - my Mom took the dog for a walk one morning, and the neighbors had two unleashed mastiffs in the yard that took the opportunity to maul the pomeranian, knocking my Mom on her ass. By the time the neighbors came out and got the situation stable, my grandmother's dog was dead. My Mom was horrified and my father was just thankful that my Mom was okay. The neighbors ended up just needing to pay a $200 fine, though they did offer to pay for all the vet fees with the pomeranian (cremation, etc).

I think we should require a license yeah.  That way it can be revoked. Some people need theirs revoked. And plenty of them own poodles.

You have to train for a certain number of hours before you can even volunteer at the animal shelters here. Seems like at least as much should be required for pet ownership, for the sake of animals and humans alike.

Idk if it's just a CA thing, but most shelters require some kind of registration when you adopt, which prevents known "bad owners" from adopting again.

Without reading the whole thread, I'll just say I'm pro ban.

You can say it's the owners, but behaviour is also part genetics. Perhaps more than people realize. We don't need risky dog breeds. Rather, they should be robust so that even if they have a shitty upbringing and bad owners, they won't become dangerous.

Edit:

And licenses lead to too much beauracracy, I think.

I can't speak for anywhere else but the XL bully's here have become a huge problem. These dogs are insane in size. Genuinely 50 kilos of pure muscle 😂.

I do agree with the breed bans because although these breeds have potential to be be sweet dogs, if they fall in to the wrong hands they can and do kill people.

The type of owner that they attract is not your average loving family. It is generally low-life's (not to cause anyone upset if they have one, I'm only speaking on what it is like here)

Also, the breeders of these dogs do not give a fuck about anything. They don't care about conformation or breeding out aggressive tendencies or anything else so usually they are breeding dogs for their "rare" colours with a whole host of health problems to unhinged people who treat them like shit 😂. It is a recipe for disaster.

Keep seeing these dogs out and about ever since they became infamous lol. A surprising amount of young women with them as well.

They're really really common here but I live near some shitty areas so that probably has something to do with it 😂

Yes, this particular breed sounds very dangerous, so should be banned asap imo. Here's another UK story from just yesterday about another guy killed by an American XL Bully:-  https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-67004053

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 17, 2023, 04:45 PMAnd licenses lead to too much beauracracy, I think.

^ I agree. Even though today licensing could be administered online at low cost, to be effectively enforced it would soon get complicated. To me, another option would be to crank up the tax on dog food. I assumed this would just mean increasing the percentage of VAT that's already charged on petfood, so out of curiosity I looked at what that is in the UK. Sadly, not as straightforward as I thought:-

QuoteThe real minefield in VAT on animals and animal products, however, comes in the distinction between food for animals and pet food, and between pet food and food for working animals. What this means is that food to be fed to animals is theoretically zero-rated, except if it's canned, packaged or prepared pet food, packaged food for wild birds, or biscuits and meal for cats and dogs. Which, in essence, sounds like all animal food!

Yet the tax system does make an exemption for working dogs, at least in theory. As the code explains, "if a specially formulated food is held out for sale exclusively for working dogs it will come within the scope of the VAT relief." However a "product which is claimed as being suitable for all breeds, size and age of dog" is standard-rated. This results in the farcical consequence that food for greyhounds is standard-rated, whereas food for racing greyhounds is zero-rated. Whatever your views on the ethics of greyhound-racing, this is madness.

I was bitten by a dog on the hand about 17 years ago (not badly but enough to go to hospital just to have it all checked out and see if I needed some shots) but it was kind of expected under the circumstances considering it was in its own yard and was attacking a dog that had wandered onto the property after someone had left the side gate open.

I was attempting to break up the fight and to be fair I can imagine the dog doing me quite a bit more damage since it wasn't mine and I was being pretty robust towards it in trying to get it to unlock its jaw around the other dogs neck. If it wasn't for the fact that there were about 8 of us there playing cards on the verandah (and pretty drunk  :laughing: ) I doubt I'd have anything to do with getting involved in a dog fight.

As for certain breeds, if the dogs are kept secure and the owners are responsible then I dont really mind any breed being aggressive, but its not really an issue around where I live currently so I haven't really had to deal with it.

Ban all dogs! Go knocking on everyone's door and take their dog out of their home. They must surrender ownership of their dog to the state. Round up all the dogs and dispose of them anyway you want. Euthanasia, burning, drowing but when it is being done a cat must be in the vicinity to watch as the dog expires!

This was not written by a cat but a hooman.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Oct 05, 2023, 03:22 PMBan all dogs! Go knocking on everyone's door and take their dog out of their home. They must surrender ownership of their dog to the state. Round up all the dogs and dispose of them anyway you want. Euthanasia, burning, drowing but when it is being done a cat must be in the vicinity to watch as the dog expires!

This was not written by a cat but a hooman.

(https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2016/01/kit-e1452266171252-1024x640.jpg)

(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/112/471/9ec.jpg)

(https://i.ibb.co/KD5tjyp/20231026-170449.jpg)

Excel Bully.

(https://nt.global.ssl.fastly.net/binaries/content/gallery/website/national/regions/wales/places/marloes-sands-and-mere/library/summer/visitor-walking-pembrokeshire-coast-path-marloes-sands-1434587.jpg)

Who would not enjoy walking along this public footpath, near Rydlios in Wales?

Sadly, anyone who reads this story may have second thoughts, along the lines of "where can I hide from a dog up here?! How quickly could I be helicoptered out?!"

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-67464124 : Four Injured In Dangerous Dog Attack

These kinds of incidents make me so angry because of the way they are robbing people of their once-tranquil heritage, that Britain, over centuries, has tried to protect for the enjoyment of everyone. :(

Woman in East London attacked and killed BY HER OWN DOGS.

No prizes for guessing which breed the dogs were. They were also fully registered and compliant with new British law.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-69043371

@SGR thoughts?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on May 21, 2024, 08:08 PMWoman in East London attacked and killed BY HER OWN DOGS.

No prizes for guessing which breed the dogs were. They were also fully registered and compliant with new British law.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-69043371

@SGR thoughts?

I wasn't familiar with the new laws in Britain, so clicked one of the links to that on the page and found the following:

QuoteHow does the American XL bully ban work in England and Wales?
Ownership of American bully XL dogs is restricted under the Dangerous Dogs Act 1991.

Since 31 December 2023, it has been against the law to sell, give away, abandon or breed from an XL bully.

Since 1 February 2024, it has been a criminal offence to own an XL bully without an exemption certificate.

The government said it received 61,000 exemption applications before the deadline.

Police can seize unregistered prohibited dogs, and their owners face a criminal record and unlimited fine.

Police seize 22 dogs from illegal XL Bully farm
Is the American XL bully ban working?
Owners who applied for an exemption had to buy insurance, microchip their dog and pay a £92.40 fee per animal.

Registered dogs must be housed securely, and kept on a lead and muzzled in public - but not at home.

Older dogs must also be neutered by 30 June, or by the end of 2024 for dogs under the age of one.

Owners in England and Wales can no longer apply to exempt an XL bully.

Anyone choosing not to keep their XL bully had to take it to a registered vet to be euthanised by 31 January 2024.

As at 22 April 2024, the government said it had received 400 valid euthanasia compensation claims, and had processed 395, at a cost of £76,500.

Honestly, this sounds about as good as it gets in terms of government response to pits without being completely authoritarian. Offer incentives to euthanize current pits, and for owners who want to keep their pits, make it a complete fucking nightmare and a complete pain in the ass to own one. If you get caught with your pit so much as unmuzzled out in public, issue a big fat fine on the owner with the threat of possible jail time for repeat offenses. As for the woman in the story you linked, I don't think stupidity should merit a death sentence, but I'd count her case as 'suicide by pitbull'. An ugly form of Darwinism.

From what I've read, in 2023, there about 57 fatal pitbull attacks in America. To put that into perspective, in 2023, worldwide, there were 10 fatal shark attacks - and 13 people struck dead by lightning (which is a low in recent years). You're probably more likely to be struck by lightning while you're getting mauled by a pitbull (and unfortunately for you, even after the pit gets struck by lightning, it's still not letting go of your leg) than you are to be attacked and killed by a shark.

Thanks to 'Jaws' and its many imitators, sharks have a bad rep. I've heard rumors they're making a sequel movie to the original adaptation of Stephen King's 'Cujo'. If it happens, I vote that in the sequel, we change it from a Saint Bernard (what it originally was) to a pitbull.

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/5d3e481bc5a6e40001b215a8/1691848480244-MHKDLR4SSCXIA4DF37ER/Cujo.jpg?content-type=image%2Fjpeg)

Question: What has four legs and one arm?
Answer: A pit bull leaving the playground.

 :laughing: love it mate.

 Woman dies after dog attack (https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2024/0605/1453055-limerick-dog-attack/?at_medium=email&at_emailtype=retention&at_campaign=website&at_creation=News%20Newsletter%20&at_link=Automated%20Newsletter&at_recipient_list=2&at_send_date=20240605)

Does anyone know what an "XL Bully Dog" is? Jesus.

Quote from: Trollheart on Jun 05, 2024, 06:54 PM Woman dies after dog attack (https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2024/0605/1453055-limerick-dog-attack/?at_medium=email&at_emailtype=retention&at_campaign=website&at_creation=News%20Newsletter%20&at_link=Automated%20Newsletter&at_recipient_list=2&at_send_date=20240605)

Does anyone know what an "XL Bully Dog" is? Jesus.

You don't see them where you are? Saw one just the other day. What is the dog of choice for the Irish yobs under the age of 40?

Has anyone noticed the French Bulldogs on roids that are popping up? I have now seen quite a few looking like a frenchie head on an XL bully body. I would not be surprised if they were crossing them so it's easier to fool the police.


Edit: a few people I know have normal sized frenchies, these things are about 3x the size. Height and build.

Edit2: SGR your joke is incredible 👏😂 if you didn't laugh you'd cry

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Jun 05, 2024, 09:50 PMYou don't see them where you are? Saw one just the other day. What is the dog of choice for the Irish yobs under the age of 40?

It's possible I see them, but I don't know what they are. Got a pic? Dog breed of choice is, surprise surprise, a male cow that tends to live in a chasm.

Spoiler

Pit bull duh

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Quote from: Trollheart on Jun 05, 2024, 10:43 PMIt's possible I see them, but I don't know what they are. Got a pic? Dog breed of choice is, surprise surprise, a male cow that tends to live in a chasm.

Spoiler

Pit bull duh

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Well imagine a pit bull but significantly bigger.

(https://wallstreetbullyskennel.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/91079947_146628193392946_3071665996264636416_n.jpg)

Quote from: FETCHER. on Jun 05, 2024, 10:28 PMHas anyone noticed the French Bulldogs on roids that are popping up? I have now seen quite a few looking like a frenchie head on an XL bully body. I would not be surprised if they were crossing them so it's easier to fool the police.


Edit: a few people I know have normal sized frenchies, these things are about 3x the size. Height and build.

Edit2: SGR your joke is incredible 👏😂 if you didn't laugh you'd cry

Haven't seen them but I'll keep an eye out.

Do you see many XLs up there?

Christ on a skateboard in the finals of the All-Omnipotent Beings Championships MMXXIV having knocked out Odin and Buddha in the semis! That dog only needs two more heads and he'd be a dead ringer for Cerberus, Demon Guard Dog of the Underworld in Greek myth! Whatever happened to nice dogs like labradors, retrievers and collies? Fucking dog owners today, so many of them seem to see the animal as a weapon rather than a pet.

I'd agree we don't need to be weaponising dogs. My family had dogs (and cats) all our lives. We had a collie, a golden lab/retriever mix and our last dog, though he had I think some mastiff in him, was more like a big bat on four legs and so lovable. We never had a dangerous dog, we never had a single problem with any of our dogs, they never bit anyone (including us) and in fact the only incident any of them were in was when Teddy (the bat) saved Karen when someone's dog left loose in their front garden went for her. He got badly bitten and she ended up carrying him home, crying, while he bled, but he survived. Other than that, good as anything.

My own suggestion is convoluted and complicated and most likely wouldn't work, but I would suggest a period of "training wheels", as it were, for anyone trying to get a licence for a dog over a certain weight or deemed possibly dangerous. During this time the prospective owner would have to wear a bodycam or something, some sort of monitor, so their behaviour with the dog could be watched and judged. If they complete that training course, they may then have their licence. If nothing else, maybe being forced to be "good" with a dog might actually bleed (sorry) into the way they behave with the dog they actually get. And needless to say, if the footage is reviewed and found not to be satisfactory, no licence.

In my day (zzzzzzz I know) about the most "dangerous" dog you had was an "aller" (Alsatian /German Shepherd), a Doberman Pinscher or a Rottweiler, and apart from the first, few people had these dogs. Alsatians were common, mostly for guard dog duty but people did have them, they were very popular, the others not so much so. We had labs, retrievers, dalmatians, collies, spaniels, daschunds, poodles, Jack Russells, and various terriers.

My only real incident personally with a dog was when I was crossing some waste ground on the way to work one morning and this Doberman came running at me. I stopped, he stood on his hind legs and put his forepaws (or was it two? Think it was four) on my shoulders. He was then almost as tall as I was, looking into my face. His owner came running and shouted "Don't move!" Like I was going to, or could. I stayed totally still and he called the dog off, but it never made any aggressive move towards me; I really think it was just being friendly. A change of underwear was required when I got to work though - you did NOT want to be on THAT bus!

We had dogs that lived side by side with cats. They were great pets, and we looked after them well - no dog of ours ever slept outside, always inside dogs, and some were large as I say, but that was how we were. It seems these days the pure joy of having a pet has been replaced by a mixture of their being a status symbol and a potential weapon. Nowadays, that sign we used to see BEWARE OF THE DOG is far more relevant and chilling than it was in my youth.

Tealdeer: today's dog owners suck.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Jun 05, 2024, 11:07 PMHaven't seen them but I'll keep an eye out.

Do you see many XLs up there?

Yes, tons of them.

A guy that stays nearby me was attacked by an XL bully guard dog (his friends). It was terrible, he nearly lost his hand. He said he stabbed the dog multiple times with a pen knife type thing and it still wouldn't stop attacking him. I bumped in to him a few months later with his very own Xl bully by his side lol. wtf.

^ That guy had a strange response after being attacked by an XL, FETCHER - perhaps he misunderstood the idea behind the phrase "the hair of the dog that bit you" !

Quote from: Trollheart on Jun 06, 2024, 02:02 AMMy only real incident personally with a dog was when I was crossing some waste ground on the way to work one morning and this Doberman came running at me. I stopped, he stood on his hind legs and put his forepaws (or was it two? Think it was four) on my shoulders. He was then almost as tall as I was, looking into my face. His owner came running and shouted "Don't move!" Like I was going to, or could. I stayed totally still and he called the dog off, but it never made any aggressive move towards me; I really think it was just being friendly. A change of underwear was required when I got to work though - you did NOT want to be on THAT bus! 

We had dogs that lived side by side with cats. They were great pets, and we looked after them well - no dog of ours ever slept outside, always inside dogs, and some were large as I say, but that was how we were. It seems these days the pure joy of having a pet has been replaced by a mixture of their being a status symbol and a potential weapon. Nowadays, that sign we used to see BEWARE OF THE DOG is far more relevant and chilling than it was in my youth.

Tealdeer: today's dog owners suck.

Your  encounter with a Doberman could've been a lot worse, Trollheart, and you clearly chose the best possible course of action. But even if that dog was "just being friendly", your story still makes me angry. Walking across wasteland should be an enjoyable experience: not a place where you are scared, accosted by a huge dog, then told not to move by its owner. It makes me think of a bunch of  "What if..?"s :  What if the dog wasn't friendly? What if you were a child, or a little old lady?

You clearly had a good relationship with family pets, as I did myself with a family dog: no serious probs although the neighbours did once complain about too much night-time barking. None the less, for me, dog owners are a little too quick to defend the harmlessness of their dogs, with the usual,  "Don't worry, he doesn't bite". I think that's the wrong tense to use, because biting is an instinctive reflex in dogs and can be done in just one unpredictable second (as I know to my cost). To be more accurate, dog owners should only say, "Don't worry, he hasn't bitten anyone yet".

It's a lesson the parents of this little girl learned the hard way:-

Quote from: FETCHER. on Jun 23, 2024, 11:56 AMYes, tons of them.

A guy that stays nearby me was attacked by an XL bully guard dog (his friends). It was terrible, he nearly lost his hand. He said he stabbed the dog multiple times with a pen knife type thing and it still wouldn't stop attacking him. I bumped in to him a few months later with his very own Xl bully by his side lol. wtf.

assuming he bought it after the attack? Cause that's kinda weird I guess. Other than that I don't see why he would get rid of his dog just cause he was attacked by another dog of the same breed.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 24, 2024, 05:15 AMassuming he bought it after the attack? Cause that's kinda weird I guess. Other than that I don't see why he would get rid of his dog just cause he was attacked by another dog of the same breed.

Yeah JWB, he didn't have any dog at all before the attack. I wouldn't expect someone to get rid of their own dog unless it was something they wanted to do, fear etc. I thought it was a strange breed choice after what he had gone through. Each to their own though I guess.

Yes, Lisna, reminds me of that old joke where the guy sees a woman with a small dog and asks "Does your dog bite?" She says "No" and he leans down to pet the dog. He jumps back, angrily holding his hand. "I thought," he says, eyeing the owner and her dog with new suspicion, "you said your dog didn't bite!" She sniffs and says, "That isn't my dog!"

Funny but yeah, in fairness that guy was cool. He was literally just walking his dog and it was friendly, though when 70 pounds (or whatever) of powerful potential attack dog hits you, you do wonder why the hell he hadn't got a muzzle on? The dog, I mean, not the owner. And as Judge Judy says, the dog should have been in his control at all times, not running loose. After the wasteground it was out onto the main road, so the dog could theoretically have run into traffic, plus there's a bus stop just outside the wall so he could have upset someone there. Still, I was always told dogs can smell fear so tried never to show it. I think something else masked the smell anyway!  :laughing:

Quote from: FETCHER. on Jun 24, 2024, 11:39 PMYeah JWB, he didn't have any dog at all before the attack. I wouldn't expect someone to get rid of their own dog unless it was something they wanted to do, fear etc. I thought it was a strange breed choice after what he had gone through. Each to their own though I guess.

I think his choice makes sense especially because of what he went through. Now he has his own to essentially keep himself safe from others. It's similar to getting shot randomly and then once you heal you acquire your own gun for future protection.

That's like adopting a Muslim kid 3 weeks after 9/11. It just means you subconsciously want the lingering threat of death around to keep you feeling alive.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 25, 2024, 03:10 AMThat's like adopting a Muslim kid 3 weeks after 9/11. It just means you subconsciously want the lingering threat of death around to keep you feeling alive.

No that analogy doesn't even come close to what I said.

Getting injured by gun, getting your own gun for protection.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 25, 2024, 02:55 AMI think his choice makes sense especially because of what he went through. Now he has his own to essentially keep himself safe from others. It's similar to getting shot randomly and then once you heal you acquire your own gun for future protection.

I thought this was satire 😆.

Most news reports here are of people being mauled and killed by their own XL bully's so that point is moot.

Quote from: FETCHER. on Jun 25, 2024, 10:49 AMI thought this was satire 😆.

Most news reports here are of people being mauled and killed by their own XL bully's so that point is moot.

Isn't that from raising them badly though?

Also my analogy still kind of works because people die at the hands of their own guns.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 25, 2024, 12:52 PMIsn't that from raising them badly though?

Also my analogy still kind of works because people die at the hands of their own guns.

Not always no, there's multiple references of "family dogs" doing this. I will quote some for you later but I'm just about to start work. I don't believe the answer to XL bully's is more XL bully's.

Quote from: FETCHER. on Jun 25, 2024, 01:04 PMNot always no, there's multiple references of "family dogs" doing this. I will quote some for you later but I'm just about to start work. I don't believe the answer to XL bully's is more XL bully's.

Hehe People say the same thing about guns. The answer to lessening gun violence isn't more guns.

I'd love to hear the stories later on.

Idk I'm just not the type to condemn all dogs within a specific breed just because some a holes raised them rough and to be aggressive fighters.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 25, 2024, 02:19 PMIdk I'm just not the type to condemn all dogs within a specific breed just because some a holes raised them rough and to be aggressive fighters.

That's kinda the problem with the breed as a whole though. It's not really their fault, but we as humans bred them specifically to be rough and aggressive (https://archive.ph/xCTXO#selection-1093.0-1109.210).

QuoteThe victims are mostly adults, attacked suddenly and often without provocation. Only a small number of injuries are fatal, but many are life-changing. In 2023 xl Bullies made up less than 1% of Britain's dog population and yet, according to Bully Watch uk, the dogs were responsible for 44% of dog attacks on people. They estimate the breed is 270 times more deadly than all other dog breeds combined.

Their ancestry helps explain their aggression. Pit-bull terriers were bred to win dog fights, contests which begin with two animals and end with one. Though illegal in Britain since 1835 and in America since 1976, dogfights' popularity as a forum for betting means many continue underground. With money to be made by breeding the best fighters, handlers selected those with tenacity and "gameness"—the ability to keep fighting despite serious injuries. Over decades, the pit-bull terrier developed the ability to attack suddenly, and sustain grave injuries without retreating. This genetic history is present in the xl Bully. "These dogs, being bred for aggression, are likely to inherit aggression," says David Sargan, a geneticist at Cambridge Veterinary School. "However well you treat them, a proportion of them may explode."

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 25, 2024, 04:43 AMNo that analogy doesn't even come close to what I said.

Getting injured by gun, getting your own gun for protection.

It was a joke, not an analogy. And it was still better than your gun analogy lol.


You're saying getting a dog for protection after being attacked by a dog is like getting injured ( I assume we mean attacked) with a gun and then buying a gun for protection. The difference is a gun would also be better defense against a dog than having your own dog around to fight it. So why would you not just get a gun in both cases. You're assuming the person who gets shot wants a gun for protection simply because that's the weapon they were injured with. Which is a strange assumption.

Quote from: FETCHER. on Jun 25, 2024, 01:04 PMNot always no, there's multiple references of "family dogs" doing this. I will quote some for you later but I'm just about to start work. I don't believe the answer to XL bully's is more XL bully's.

There was a woman here who got killed by her own dog recently.

XL Bully.

She'd been posting on TikTok about how her dear old pooch woukdnt harm a fly or some shit when the bans came in.

RIP.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 25, 2024, 12:52 PMIsn't that from raising them badly though?

Also my analogy still kind of works because people die at the hands of their own guns.

Guns don't have hands.

Quote from: SGRThat's kinda the problem with the breed as a whole though. It's not really their fault, but we as humans bred them specifically to be rough and aggressive (https://archive.ph/xCTXO#selection-1093.0-1109.210).

QuoteThe victims are mostly adults, attacked suddenly and often without provocation. Only a small number of injuries are fatal, but many are life-changing. In 2023 xl Bullies made up less than 1% of Britain's dog population and yet, according to Bully Watch uk, the dogs were responsible for 44% of dog attacks on people. They estimate the breed is 270 times more deadly than all other dog breeds combined.

Their ancestry helps explain their aggression. Pit-bull terriers were bred to win dog fights, contests which begin with two animals and end with one. Though illegal in Britain since 1835 and in America since 1976, dogfights' popularity as a forum for betting means many continue underground. With money to be made by breeding the best fighters, handlers selected those with tenacity and "gameness"—the ability to keep fighting despite serious injuries. Over decades, the pit-bull terrier developed the ability to attack suddenly, and sustain grave injuries without retreating. This genetic history is present in the xl Bully. "These dogs, being bred for aggression, are likely to inherit aggression," says David Sargan, a geneticist at Cambridge Veterinary School. "However well you treat them, a proportion of them may explode."

The quote says it all, I think. There's no point in people owning dogs that are some hundreds of times more likely than other dogs to just kill someone.

People overemphasize their own abilities to raise and handle dogs, not realising how big a part genetics play when it comes to this risk.

Quote from: Guybrush on Jun 25, 2024, 11:57 PMThe quote says it all, I think. There's no point in people owning dogs that are some hundreds of times more likely than other dogs to just kill someone.

People overemphasize their own abilities to raise and handle dogs, not realising how big a part genetics play when it comes to this risk.

Yup, I completely agree. We were the cause of this problem, and now we need to decide how best to handle it. Any claims that pits are inherently no more aggressive or dangerous than other breeds, and it's all about how you raise them are not based in reality. You can make that argument for some breeds, but not pits.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 25, 2024, 03:56 PMIt was a joke, not an analogy. And it was still better than your gun analogy lol.


You're saying getting a dog for protection after being attacked by a dog is like getting injured ( I assume we mean attacked) with a gun and then buying a gun for protection. The difference is a gun would also be better defense against a dog than having your own dog around to fight it. So why would you not just get a gun in both cases. You're assuming the person who gets shot wants a gun for protection simply because that's the weapon they were injured with. Which is a strange assumption.

Bruv you speaking about the UK it's not as easy to just get a gun to protect against the dog maybe a knife.

Also I don't see it as such a weird assumption to make that a person shot by a gun would want to protect themselves with a gun. You think they would become some passive monk that views all guns as evil and not want to protect themselves with a weapon?

Knifes over a certain length are illegal too.

It's not a weird assumption, I completely agree but it feeds in to the vicious circle doesn't it?

Yes it does feed into a cycle that's why gun violence in certain areas of the states is pretty high.

If someone attacked you with a Molotov cocktail would that cause you to start hoarding bottles? Or would you just want a gun regardless of what the threat is. Give your head a shake.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 27, 2024, 12:39 AMIf someone attacked you with a Molotov cocktail would that cause you to start hoarding bottles? Or would you just want a gun regardless of what the threat is. Give your head a shake.

I would become an expert Molotov cocktail throwing. I would want to be the best of the best and start working on my angles while throwing.


Idk why you are acting like this us a strange behavior.

People tend to want control over things when bad stuff happens to them. They don't want to be harmed by the thing that harmed them before.

Looks like we're on our way to banning XLs in Ireland. Can't say I'm sorry.

Minister Heather Humphreys has said she fears attacks by XL bully dogs "will become more frequent" if action is not taken, as she announced that the breed are to be banned under new regulations to be introduced later this year.

The Minister for Rural and Community Development said the ban, which will be implemented in two phases between October and February, is in the interest of public safety.

It follows calls for tighter dog control measures after a number of high-profile dog attacks.

Last month, 23-year-old Nicole Morey died after being attacked by an XL bully dog at her Co Limerick home.

The first phase will commence on 1 October this year, when it will be illegal to breed, sell, rehome or import XL bully dogs.

The second phase will be introduced on 1 February 2025.

This will see a ban on owning an XL bully dog, unless the owner has a Certificate of Exemption.

The certificates will only be issued to owners who can prove their dog has a licence, is microchipped and is neutered.

Further criteria for this exemption will be discussed by the Stakeholder Group on Dog Control.



In a statement, Minister Humphreys said: "If we do not take action now the number of these dogs in the country will grow and my fear is that these attacks will become more frequent.

"It is my strong view that Ireland should not be out of step with neighbouring jurisdictions in Northern Ireland and the UK on this matter."

"I know a lot of people will not agree with this decision. I'm a dog owner myself and I know people love their dogs," she said.

"We must be mindful however that no dog's life is worth more than human life. Ultimately, that is what guided me in making this decision."

When asked about enforcement, Minister Humphreys said that the responsibility initially will be with dog wardens, who also work with An Garda Síochána.

However, the minister said that more dog wardens are needed. There are currently around 70 around the country.

Minister Humphreys said that there would now be a "big focus" on recruitment to ensure that these regulations will be enforced.

Owners of XL bullies who do not comply with the new regulations after 1 February next year will have their dog seized and euthanised.

XL bullies are already among 11 breeds of dogs, including crossbreeds, on a "restricted breeds" list in Ireland, but there are currently no bans in place.

Restrictions mean that while in public, these dogs must be muzzled, be kept on a strong lead by someone over the age of 16 and wear a collar with the name and address of their owner.

The measures are being introduced following consultation with the chair of the stakeholder group on dog control and the Attorney General.



In March, Ms Humphreys established the group to examine dog control issues.

That working group is chaired by former garda assistant commissioner John Twomey.

Taoiseach Simon Harris has also previously said he would like to see a ban and that there was a "clear need" for Government action.

The new measures will bring Ireland in line with the UK.

Last week, a similar two-stage approach on XL bully dogs came into effect in Northern Ireland, so the announcement means the rules will be broadly the same on both sides of the border from October.

In a statement, the DSPCA said it was concerned that "people will panic and abandon their pets".

"We understand that Minister Humphreys has had a difficult decision to make and we will wait to see how this will work in practical terms. As a charity our fears are that people will panic and abandon their pets or look at already full rescue centres to rehome them."

(https://www.akc.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Pomeranian-On-White-01.jpg)

The point is that pitbulls and XL bullies are often owned by people who have no real interest in a dog, other than as a status symbol or weapon. Nobody worries about German Shepherds or Great Danes or dogs like that because they're kept primarily as pets. And in the case of German Shepherds, guard dogs. But they don't have the inbuilt aggression that XLs do, and those dogs have been involved in far more attacks - some of which have been fatal - than all the other breeds combined. All my life I've had dogs and never once were any of mine involved in an attack on a human. With XL bullies this seems to happen all the time, and they're massively powerful and lethal dogs, which is why people are so worried about them.