I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll share some perspective from Norway.
My basic position is generally immigrant and refugee friendly. I believe most of them want a good life here. They want to contribute to society. They sometimes want to enjoy the freedom and opportunities Norwegian society offers them, especially women from countries where women don't have the same opportunities as men. I think we're generally morally obliged to help people.
I've met a lot of refugees and we have immigrant friends, also from Ukraine. In 2015, with the war in Syria and other conflicts, Norway took in a lot of refugees. Hotels were converted. At that time, I collected a bunch of old laptops from the municipality, like from where I worked and from a couple of schools. They were mostly crappy, but I set them up with Lubuntu and we delivered them to the refugee centers. I also gave away my old Xbox 360 and my entire collection of movies and games.. I hope they like Evil Dead.
Around the same time, my wife and my sister had joined a women's society that was mixing Norwegian women with immigrant women and while it was mostly for women, I came along on trips and helped out. We got into contact with a lot of people that way, like we've been invited for Eritrean new years celebration, befriended a Muslim single mom of three kids whom we all had over for Christmas celebrations one year, people from Ethiopia, from Turkey etc. My sister is a professor of Sociology and has been working some with how immigrants are met in the Norwegian system (it's not always easy for them) and through that, we've also helped out a little and it's only a couple of weeks or so since I took some time out of work to help someone out.
A lot of people are sceptical about taking in immigrants or refugees. They may think they're all a certain way and can all be described by certain broad strokes. I think they're often judged unfairly. The people we've met have unanimously been hard working, good people who wanted to make it here.
I sometimes read that they cost too much. I think getting someone who's already an engineer, doctor, knows construction - and mostly just needs to learn the language and then can get straight to work - is a huge boon to society and less costly than growing a new engineer from a baby. Actually, I already know that Norwegians on average take more money from the state than they give back. The education, health and other services are too expensive. People don't pay enough back in taxes to make up for it. In comparison, immigrants can actually potentially become tax payers with relatively little investment. It's a better bet.
I sometimes read they are criminal. They are a little more criminal on average, but I do think this worry stems from fear more than anything else. There's never been any obvious criminal element to the people I've met. I think in some culrure,s, there's more illegal social control and things that don't bleed over to society at large. And yes, as a demographic they are more criminal. But it's also important to remember that crime has gone down steadily for a long time and the streets are safer than ever - and much safer now than, say, they were in the year 2000. When there's news about murder, it's usually full-bred white Norwegians going crazy. There's an element of truth here, but it's basically exaggerated.
At worst, I think being very sceptical and dystopic about immigration could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all agree integration is extremely important for immigrants to succeed and to become contributors to society. But it's not their responsibility alone. We create the system that is supposed to help them on their way. We may be the employers who can give them a chance at a job. We can be fellow human beings and accept them into our communities and take care not to talk about them in a way that would cause distance, outsiderness and a feeling of not being accepted. People being overly sceptical will help create barriers to integration, like prevent them from getting Norwegian friends, from getting a job, causing resentment etc. Regardless of how we feel about policy, we need to be accepting and treat people well.
Something I absolutely hate is when brown skinned, young people who are born in Norway don't feel like they're Norwegian and talk about themselves like they're not Norwegian because they feel like they don't belong. Then we've failed them as a society and I think we all have a responsibility to prevent that from happening.
My basic position is generally immigrant and refugee friendly. I believe most of them want a good life here. They want to contribute to society. They sometimes want to enjoy the freedom and opportunities Norwegian society offers them, especially women from countries where women don't have the same opportunities as men. I think we're generally morally obliged to help people.
I've met a lot of refugees and we have immigrant friends, also from Ukraine. In 2015, with the war in Syria and other conflicts, Norway took in a lot of refugees. Hotels were converted. At that time, I collected a bunch of old laptops from the municipality, like from where I worked and from a couple of schools. They were mostly crappy, but I set them up with Lubuntu and we delivered them to the refugee centers. I also gave away my old Xbox 360 and my entire collection of movies and games.. I hope they like Evil Dead.
Around the same time, my wife and my sister had joined a women's society that was mixing Norwegian women with immigrant women and while it was mostly for women, I came along on trips and helped out. We got into contact with a lot of people that way, like we've been invited for Eritrean new years celebration, befriended a Muslim single mom of three kids whom we all had over for Christmas celebrations one year, people from Ethiopia, from Turkey etc. My sister is a professor of Sociology and has been working some with how immigrants are met in the Norwegian system (it's not always easy for them) and through that, we've also helped out a little and it's only a couple of weeks or so since I took some time out of work to help someone out.
A lot of people are sceptical about taking in immigrants or refugees. They may think they're all a certain way and can all be described by certain broad strokes. I think they're often judged unfairly. The people we've met have unanimously been hard working, good people who wanted to make it here.
I sometimes read that they cost too much. I think getting someone who's already an engineer, doctor, knows construction - and mostly just needs to learn the language and then can get straight to work - is a huge boon to society and less costly than growing a new engineer from a baby. Actually, I already know that Norwegians on average take more money from the state than they give back. The education, health and other services are too expensive. People don't pay enough back in taxes to make up for it. In comparison, immigrants can actually potentially become tax payers with relatively little investment. It's a better bet.
I sometimes read they are criminal. They are a little more criminal on average, but I do think this worry stems from fear more than anything else. There's never been any obvious criminal element to the people I've met. I think in some culrure,s, there's more illegal social control and things that don't bleed over to society at large. And yes, as a demographic they are more criminal. But it's also important to remember that crime has gone down steadily for a long time and the streets are safer than ever - and much safer now than, say, they were in the year 2000. When there's news about murder, it's usually full-bred white Norwegians going crazy. There's an element of truth here, but it's basically exaggerated.
At worst, I think being very sceptical and dystopic about immigration could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all agree integration is extremely important for immigrants to succeed and to become contributors to society. But it's not their responsibility alone. We create the system that is supposed to help them on their way. We may be the employers who can give them a chance at a job. We can be fellow human beings and accept them into our communities and take care not to talk about them in a way that would cause distance, outsiderness and a feeling of not being accepted. People being overly sceptical will help create barriers to integration, like prevent them from getting Norwegian friends, from getting a job, causing resentment etc. Regardless of how we feel about policy, we need to be accepting and treat people well.
Something I absolutely hate is when brown skinned, young people who are born in Norway don't feel like they're Norwegian and talk about themselves like they're not Norwegian because they feel like they don't belong. Then we've failed them as a society and I think we all have a responsibility to prevent that from happening.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on May 17, 2024, 10:44 AMHow is your bumhole doing mate? Hope you're feeling better.
I was a little worried for a while as it was feeling a little wonky and out of sorts, but now it's alright.
Thanks for asking the ass king!
Quote from: Trollheart on May 17, 2024, 11:24 PMAll right, what happened to this? I see the voting thread has been deep-sixed, and I can't find any results thread. Did it just fizzle out, or is there somewhere I can find the actual results?
It's here 🙂
https://scd.community/index.php?topic=620.msg21001#msg21001
I can't say I have an opinion, to be honest, but when you said if you added someone they would gain access to your media, does that work the same in reverse? As I have an absolute ton of movies and TV series which I know you have never seen - a whole lot of documentaries too - which you'd be more than welcome to browse and watch if you wanted. My PC doesn't ever go off (well, maybe the odd reboot or power failure) so all the content would be available whenever you wanted it. Might just be a way in, if you want it, to some great, even culturally significant shows (you've never seen the Wire or Star Trek or 24, have you?) you might be interested in seeing.
Anyway, let me know. They're all there if you want them, just advise me what I need to do to allow you to hook up. Could be a whole new world opening up for you!
TH
Anyway, let me know. They're all there if you want them, just advise me what I need to do to allow you to hook up. Could be a whole new world opening up for you!
TH
All right, what happened to this? I see the voting thread has been deep-sixed, and I can't find any results thread. Did it just fizzle out, or is there somewhere I can find the actual results?
Quote from: jimmy jazz on May 17, 2024, 05:11 PMI don't think it's fair to just smear those who have concerns or objections as being right wing and the like.
What is Sinn Fein's stance on this? They are left wing after all.
It is behind a pay wall but this article in the Irish Times suggests that attitudes towards the migrants is toughest among those who support Sinn Fein:
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/05/17/attitudes-on-immigration-toughest-among-sinn-fein-supporters/
I don't believe I labelled all opposition to immigrants/refugees as being right wing; I just said they're the ones who will both make political capital and sow the seeds of violence over it. I'm sure plenty of left/centrist people have their own views about it too. Issues like this seldom divide directly along political or ideological lines, and of course there will be those who say nothing but think what they want to think. As for Sinn Fein, well I don't know, but since Republicans didn't want Brits here, it's probably fair to imagine they don't fancy sharing our island with "foreigners." Some sort of "Ireland for the Irish" sentiment, maybe?
Then again, the IRA being a terrorist organisation and all, maybe they stick together?
Seriously, I don't know, but as I say I think it's more a sort of broad-ranging opinion that crosses party and religious lines, and I doubt one particular set of opponents can all fall into the one camp. Naturally, Sinn Fein themselves make a big show of being on the "right", which is to say, proper, not right-wing, side, but we all know when a politician is telling lies, right? You watch Judge Judy, yes? 
Did anyone seriously not expect this? The moment I saw it I thought, "that's going to be abused." And the creator seems surprised?
NYC Portal artist appeals for people to "behave"
NYC Portal artist appeals for people to "behave"
We did this back in MB days, so I thought I'd bring it up again. The idea, for those who don't know, is to pick one trustworthy person (or have someone volunteer) and that person is then given contact details for each of us. In the event someone is not heard from for some time (can be a set period or arbitary, but not to be misused) that person may then contact the number given, to see if there is cause for concern. Obviously, this would only be done in extreme cases, when all other methods of contact have failed, and the contact details would not be shared with anyone else. I might suggest - sorry to use the term but it might be appropriate - a next-of-kin contact too, because, let's face it, if you're gone you're not answering your phone, and we still won't know.
Is anyone a) interested in doing this or b) has objections to it and if a) does anyone c) want to volunteer or nominate someone? Nobody is obliged to do this: it's a pretty serious trust and I can imagine some people might not want that sort of responsibility. But if anyone wants to volunteer, if we're going ahead, let me or Tore know.
It's a particularly relevant question when you look at what happened to Plankton and, more recently, Ribbons, and I think it would be good to have something in place.
Your thoughts and comments are welcomed.
Is anyone a) interested in doing this or b) has objections to it and if a) does anyone c) want to volunteer or nominate someone? Nobody is obliged to do this: it's a pretty serious trust and I can imagine some people might not want that sort of responsibility. But if anyone wants to volunteer, if we're going ahead, let me or Tore know.
It's a particularly relevant question when you look at what happened to Plankton and, more recently, Ribbons, and I think it would be good to have something in place.
Your thoughts and comments are welcomed.
