Right now in the UK there is a fuss happening regarding the ownership of so-called dangerous dogs and whether they should be banned.
This is a reaction to the latest dog attack in Birmingham where an XL Bully attacked an 11 year old girl and then two men who tried to defend her:
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-birmingham-66780321
The footage is online if you wish to search for it. Fortunately this time nobody died but it will give you an idea of the size and power of these dogs.
So do you think they should be banned? What is your experience with these and/or similar dog breeds? Is the problem at the other end of the lead, or is it a bit of both?
So when I was in the program I worked at 2 different animal shelters over the course of 2-3 years. My entire time I dealt primarily with dogs.
The majority of dogs who end up in the shelter are either pits or mutts with pit mixed in somehow.
There are 2 basic reasons why pits get such a bad rap.
1) the owners.
There are a lot of people who specifically want pits because it's seen as a bad ass dog to have, and as such they encourage the pit to act aggressive. I've been walking down the street in the hood plenty of time to find an angry pit chained to a post outside some shifty house. Just trying to do every thing he can to break that chain and get in your ass. People do that shit on purpose for security. That is not even to mention the dog fighting rings that pretty much exclusively fight pits. That's somewhat more rare but still common enough to be a noticeable factor.
2) they are built to fight
While in my experience pits aren't necessarily more aggressive than other breeds, if they do turn on you they can do a lot of damage. They will not let go of something once they clamp down. Once they get a hold of you, good luck getting it off of you. I knew one guy in the program who damn near had PTSD from this one pit at the shelter latching on to his arm and wouldn't let go. Another guy came up trying to get the dog off and was punching it square in the face to get it to release and it would just growl. When he came back from the hospital he had gaping holes in his arms that looked almost like bullet wounds.
But personally the only dog that ever attacked me was an aging husky that was going wirey. I'm perfectly comfortable with pits for the most part because you can usually read them pretty easily if they are aggressive. Like an a aggressive pit is usually very overtly and outwardly aggressive. There's no mystery to it.
QuoteThat is not even to mention the dog fighting rings that pretty much exclusively fight pits. That's somewhat more rare but still common enough to be a noticeable factor.
When I was at college I used to speak to one of the lads on the walk to the building in the mornings. He'd talk about new dogs he had got and say they were pussies and was getting rid of it. I thought he was talking shit and boasting like people do to impress others.
One day he was no longer in the lessons and other lads were saying he has been kicked out for saying he beats his dogs with sticks. I saw him in the paper a few months after as he'd been busted for being in a dog fighting ring.
I know the shithole where this XL Bully went mad and it wouldn't surprise me if it was raised for that reason. It definitely goes on. And even aside from that, there are endless amounts of people who get these muscle dogs for the same reasons you just described.
So anyway do you think they should be banned? I think you're leaning toward no.
I disagree with banning breeds from ownership but I am in full support of restrictions on rentals and such.
People are the main problem. Even the friendliest and most docile breeds dogs will act unpredictably when they feel insecure, and the majority of dog owners don't concern themselves with being GOOD dog owners.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 11, 2023, 08:51 PMWhen I was at college I used to speak to one of the lads on the walk to the building in the mornings. He'd talk about new dogs he had got and say they were pussies and was getting rid of it. I thought he was talking shit and boasting like people do to impress others.
One day he was no longer in the lessons and other lads were saying he has been kicked out for saying he beats his dogs with sticks. I saw him in the paper a few months after as he'd been busted for being in a dog fighting ring.
I know the shithole where this XL Bully went mad and it wouldn't surprise me if it was raised for that reason. It definitely goes on. And even aside from that, there are endless amounts of people who get these muscle dogs for the same reasons you just described.
So anyway do you think they should be banned? I think you're leaning toward no.
yeah, no I don't agree with banning them. They're incredibly common dogs here.
Tbh working at the animal shelter made me feel like if anything all pet ownership should be banned. People have consistently demonstrated their inability to responsibly own pets to the point where not only is every city I've ever been to overrun with stray dogs and cats, but now there are a ton of invasive species in Florida that started out as people's pets.
As well as the alarming video in jimmy jazz's OP, there are these UK statistics:-
QuoteTen people died because of dog bite injuries in England and Wales last year.
Numbers of attacks are rising. There there were 8,819 admissions to hospitals in England with dog bites last year. There were 4,699 in 2007.
Four dog breeds are banned in the UK - the Pit bull terrier, the Japanese tosa, the Dogo Argentino and the Fila Brasileiro
I'd say yes, ban the American bully XL - even the name is creepy.
In most cities there are too many dogs, too many irresponsible pet owners. I'm a firm supporter of the notion that an essential element of freedom is the ability to walk our streets without fear. Here in Mexico, I have been barked at, lunged at, and (once) bitten by dogs in the street. I've spoken with schoolkids who are afraid to walk down specific streets because of the dogs in them: what's that about?! When I was a kid, we felt safe playing in the streets, as long as we watched out for the cars, but now, little by little, street by street and kid by kid, dogs are snapping away at that freedom. So I say the more banned breeds the better.
Yours sincerely,
Angry Pedestrian
There was a guy on GMB saying that 70% of the deaths caused by dogs in this country now are because of this one breed.
The argument that it's down to the owner only makes sense up to a point imo. These dogs are so dangerous it's a mixture of both. If you ban this one breed, they'll move on to something else and then you are back to square one so I dunno. Maybe it needs to become very difficult to own any sort of dog. License/criminal background check.
This owner definitely needs banning. As well as putting down before he or his dog kill someone:
https://twitter.com/BullyWatchUK/status/1690256010995171329
How do you stop people like this owning dogs?
Forget the dog. He is posing way more danger with his car in that video.
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Sep 12, 2023, 04:12 PMI'm a firm supporter of the notion that an essential element of freedom is the ability to walk our streets without fear.
Good point.
Tbh I'm guessing the stray dog situation in Mexico is probably way worse than it is here. But I think they might have bigger fish to fry down there.
^ :laughing:
That's true, Jwb. In Mexico I've never once seen the "Dog Pound" trucks that I used to see on American cartoons like Top Cat and Tom and Jerry, and which I therefore assume are a regular part of the American street scene.
Scenes of every-day life in an American city:-
(https://i.pinimg.com/474x/3a/0b/8a/3a0b8aef7934d9c42be338d1f395a7c0.jpg)
BREAKING: Sunak has just banned them.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66818862
In very related news, 30 year old man killed by two dogs:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795
Just down the road from here. That's concerning, it's never good when dogs kill but you expect it to be a small child. Not this time. I should add that where I'm from is scrote central where you see these Schwarzenegger dogs with their owners all the time so that will influence my opinion a bit. I'm glad they've banned these but the scrotes will move onto something else I bet.
How do you defend yourself when set upon by a dog? I could deal with a poodle or Jack Russell but what do you do with the XL Bully or similar?
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 12, 2023, 07:51 PMThere was a guy on GMB saying that 70% of the deaths caused by dogs in this country now are because of this one breed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/419/965/86d.png)
That fucking meme 😂👌
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 15, 2023, 01:13 PMIn very related news, 30 year old man killed by two dogs:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795
Just down the road from here. That's concerning, it's never good when dogs kill but you expect it to be a small child. Not this time. I should add that where I'm from is scrote central where you see these Schwarzenegger dogs with their owners all the time so that will influence my opinion a bit. I'm glad they've banned these but the scrotes will move onto something else I bet.
Yep, I saw that story about another poor guy killed. It's just terrible. Three-fifteen on a Thursday afternoon and you suddenly have to give up your life because someone has the irresponsible whim to keep killers dogs as pets. :(
As you say, the ban is at least a step in the right direction, but won't solve every problem.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 15, 2023, 01:13 PMHow do you defend yourself when set upon by a dog? I could deal with a poodle or Jack Russell but what do you do with the XL Bully or similar?
Not sure about that, but I did read up on how to live in peace with dogs ranging the streets:-
i) don't walk towards them, or face them eye-to-eye, which they may read as a challenge
ii) instead, tilt your body to the side so that you're pointing your shoulder at them, sending the message, "I'm not engaging with you"
iii) keep walking at a steady pace, either to pass them by, or if you are worried, executing a U-turn with as much dignity as you can muster in the circs
iv)
resist the urge to run, as you may trigger their instinct to hunt down prey; anyway, it's not a race you'll win because dogs run (and fight) remarkably fast.
I know from experience that the bold is the hardest to do when a dog comes at you aggressively.
I'm not firm on the right solution here - or even which solution I'd support. If we ban certain breeds, then what? Does that imply we're going to ban breeding them as well, and let them slowly disappear (at least from a given country)? In America, there are 18 million pit bulls - what do you do about all the people who already own them? We gonna institute an Australian style 'pit bull buyback' program? And then what? Shelters don't have the capacity for that many animals, so they'd be getting euthanized, most likely. The ones that the police decide not to induct in their K9 squads, that is.
I'm not a fan of the 'license all dog ownership' idea either. Because some breeds are dangerous and aggressive, we're gonna require licenses and background checks for pugs and poodles too? And then how do you handle/enforce private sales/gifts of dangerous dog breeds?
Owners are certainly part of the problem, but pits in particular have been bred by people for aggression and their fighting ability. We're largely responsible for their bad attitude. I can't believe there are so many people stupid enough to have pit bulls around their young children. And this goes for all dog owners, the amount of them that don't keep their dogs on leashes when they're outside never ceases to amaze me. My grandmother had a small pomeranian that she loved dearly - my Mom took the dog for a walk one morning, and the neighbors had two unleashed mastiffs in the yard that took the opportunity to maul the pomeranian, knocking my Mom on her ass. By the time the neighbors came out and got the situation stable, my grandmother's dog was dead. My Mom was horrified and my father was just thankful that my Mom was okay. The neighbors ended up just needing to pay a $200 fine, though they did offer to pay for all the vet fees with the pomeranian (cremation, etc).
That's a sad story about your grandmother, SGR. You don't mention it, but I suspect that also, after that incident, she was reluctant to go out for a while. That to me is the unseen cost of dog attacks: not just the victims, but their friends and family start worrying about going out. I'm thinking not so much about your grandmother, but that 11-year-old UK girl who was attacked at a petrol station. Her family, all her classmates, and countless kids who saw the video of the attack must now feel inhibited about going out. That is really not good.
I haven't thought about how a ban gets implemented, but luckily I don't really have to: in Europe at least, local government has a way of working out those sorts of details to be more-or-less fair to everyone.
Quote from: SGR on Sep 15, 2023, 03:44 PMI'm not a fan of the 'license all dog ownership' idea either. Because some breeds are dangerous and aggressive, we're gonna require licenses and background checks for pugs and poodles too? And then how do you handle/enforce private sales/gifts of dangerous dog breeds?
For decades, Britain used to have a system of dog licensing. I don't know how much it was enforced
*, or if there was a sliding scale to reflect size of animal, etc. Easy enough to write in exemptions for breeds "too small to bother about" if that's decided upon. Ditto, guide dogs or working farm dogs, I imagine.
* = Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't enforced much, which is why it was abandoned. Does that defeat my own argument in favour of dog licensing? Not entirely, because of technological changes: easy enough today to have microchip license-implants in dogs, drones scanning the streets and Skynet lasers to zap unlicensed dogs. Problem solved!!
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Sep 15, 2023, 04:12 PMThat's a sad story about your grandmother, SGR. You don't mention it, but I suspect that also, after that incident, she was reluctant to go out for a while. That to me is the unseen cost of dog attacks: not just the victims, but their friends and family start worrying about going out. I'm thinking not so much about your grandmother, but that 11-year-old UK girl who was attacked at a petrol station. Her family, all her classmates, and countless kids who saw the video of the attack must now feel inhibited about going out. That is really not good.
I haven't thought about how a ban gets implemented, but luckily I don't really have to: in Europe at least, local government has a way of working out those sorts of details to be more-or-less fair to everyone.
For decades, Britain used to have a system of dog licensing. I don't know how much it was enforced *, or if there was a sliding scale to reflect size of animal, etc. Easy enough to write in exemptions for breeds "too small to bother about" if that's decided upon. Ditto, guide dogs or working farm dogs, I imagine.
* = Actually, now that I think about it, it wasn't enforced much, which is why it was abandoned. Does that defeat my own argument in favour of dog licensing? Not entirely, because of technological changes: easy enough today to have microchip license-implants in dogs, drones scanning the streets and Skynet lasers to zap unlicensed dogs. Problem solved!!
Yeah, there's a definite trauma impact of dog attacks, especially on young kids. When I was really young, my Dad brought me to a friend's house - and this guy had this huge Great Dane - and this thing was a mostly gentle creature - but he immediately pounced on me and had me pinned to the ground. He didn't attack me, and I'm guessing it was his way of showing affection or perhaps how he met new people, but I was maybe 3 or 4 at the time - this dog was probably 4 or 5 times bigger than I was - so while it evoked laughter out of my Dad, it evoked terror out of me.
There was another incident at some relatives graduation party when I was really young. And for some reason, their stupid fucking anklebiter of a dog decided to chase after me through their spacious yard, yipping, biting at my ankle and crotch. I was obviously in distress, was not enjoying it, and wanted it to stop but again, it was a laughing matter for those around me. If it happened today, I swear I'd punt that thing.
Thankfully, I've never had a really violent interaction with a dog, but my early childhood experiences were enough to put me off of them. I never grew up with a family dog either, so I never established a bond like many do with dogs. I'm not afraid of them or anxious around them, I just normally don't feel much when I see them. My wife is always "Awwww, look at the cute puppy, who's a good boy? Who's a good boy" (she grew up with a dog), and I just feel totally detached when I'm around them.
There's a host of other reasons dogs aren't really to my preference. But I won't bother getting into that. Needless to say, I'm not a dog person.
I'm sorry to hear about those two experiences when you were small, SGR, and particularly sorry that the adults around weren't more aware of just how scary it must have been for you. Maybe they thought it was a bit of how-boys-grow-up tough love, but actually it was them, letting a situation get out of hand and then not stopping it. But that's one of the issues with dogs - they can respond in an instant in unpredictable ways and when they do, the victims/owners can be caught off-guard.
I am also sad to read about your traumatic childhood experiences with those dogs, SGR. I am sorry - but the adults present should have been protecting you physically and emotionally, not laughing at your expense. It's not a laughing matter.
My uncle had most of one cheek area gouged by a neighbor's German shepherd as a child. He still has the scars to prove it. He went to pet the dog, and it turned on him.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Sep 15, 2023, 01:13 PMIn very related news, 30 year old man killed by two dogs:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-stoke-staffordshire-66817795
Just down the road from here. That's concerning, it's never good when dogs kill but you expect it to be a small child. Not this time. I should add that where I'm from is scrote central where you see these Schwarzenegger dogs with their owners all the time so that will influence my opinion a bit. I'm glad they've banned these but the scrotes will move onto something else I bet.
How do you defend yourself when set upon by a dog? I could deal with a poodle or Jack Russell but what do you do with the XL Bully or similar?
ain't nothing to do really if you are without a weapon lol. Try your best I guess. That dog will fuck you up.
Patrice used to say pits look like walking sharks :laughing:
Quote from: SGR on Sep 15, 2023, 03:44 PMI'm not firm on the right solution here - or even which solution I'd support. If we ban certain breeds, then what? Does that imply we're going to ban breeding them as well, and let them slowly disappear (at least from a given country)? In America, there are 18 million pit bulls - what do you do about all the people who already own them? We gonna institute an Australian style 'pit bull buyback' program? And then what? Shelters don't have the capacity for that many animals, so they'd be getting euthanized, most likely. The ones that the police decide not to induct in their K9 squads, that is.
I'm not a fan of the 'license all dog ownership' idea either. Because some breeds are dangerous and aggressive, we're gonna require licenses and background checks for pugs and poodles too? And then how do you handle/enforce private sales/gifts of dangerous dog breeds?
Owners are certainly part of the problem, but pits in particular have been bred by people for aggression and their fighting ability. We're largely responsible for their bad attitude. I can't believe there are so many people stupid enough to have pit bulls around their young children. And this goes for all dog owners, the amount of them that don't keep their dogs on leashes when they're outside never ceases to amaze me. My grandmother had a small pomeranian that she loved dearly - my Mom took the dog for a walk one morning, and the neighbors had two unleashed mastiffs in the yard that took the opportunity to maul the pomeranian, knocking my Mom on her ass. By the time the neighbors came out and got the situation stable, my grandmother's dog was dead. My Mom was horrified and my father was just thankful that my Mom was okay. The neighbors ended up just needing to pay a $200 fine, though they did offer to pay for all the vet fees with the pomeranian (cremation, etc).
I think we should require a license yeah. That way it can be revoked. Some people need theirs revoked. And plenty of them own poodles.
You have to train for a certain number of hours before you can even volunteer at the animal shelters here. Seems like at least as much should be required for pet ownership, for the sake of animals and humans alike.
Idk if it's just a CA thing, but most shelters require some kind of registration when you adopt, which prevents known "bad owners" from adopting again.
Without reading the whole thread, I'll just say I'm pro ban.
You can say it's the owners, but behaviour is also part genetics. Perhaps more than people realize. We don't need risky dog breeds. Rather, they should be robust so that even if they have a shitty upbringing and bad owners, they won't become dangerous.
Edit:
And licenses lead to too much beauracracy, I think.
I can't speak for anywhere else but the XL bully's here have become a huge problem. These dogs are insane in size. Genuinely 50 kilos of pure muscle 😂.
I do agree with the breed bans because although these breeds have potential to be be sweet dogs, if they fall in to the wrong hands they can and do kill people.
The type of owner that they attract is not your average loving family. It is generally low-life's (not to cause anyone upset if they have one, I'm only speaking on what it is like here)
Also, the breeders of these dogs do not give a fuck about anything. They don't care about conformation or breeding out aggressive tendencies or anything else so usually they are breeding dogs for their "rare" colours with a whole host of health problems to unhinged people who treat them like shit 😂. It is a recipe for disaster.
Keep seeing these dogs out and about ever since they became infamous lol. A surprising amount of young women with them as well.
They're really really common here but I live near some shitty areas so that probably has something to do with it 😂
Yes, this particular breed sounds very dangerous, so should be banned asap imo. Here's another UK story from just yesterday about another guy killed by an American XL Bully:- https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-67004053
Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 17, 2023, 04:45 PMAnd licenses lead to too much beauracracy, I think.
^ I agree. Even though today licensing could be administered online at low cost, to be effectively enforced it would soon get complicated. To me, another option would be to crank up the tax on dog food. I assumed this would just mean increasing the percentage of VAT that's already charged on petfood, so out of curiosity I looked at what that is in the UK. Sadly, not as straightforward as I thought:-
QuoteThe real minefield in VAT on animals and animal products, however, comes in the distinction between food for animals and pet food, and between pet food and food for working animals. What this means is that food to be fed to animals is theoretically zero-rated, except if it's canned, packaged or prepared pet food, packaged food for wild birds, or biscuits and meal for cats and dogs. Which, in essence, sounds like all animal food!
Yet the tax system does make an exemption for working dogs, at least in theory. As the code explains, "if a specially formulated food is held out for sale exclusively for working dogs it will come within the scope of the VAT relief." However a "product which is claimed as being suitable for all breeds, size and age of dog" is standard-rated. This results in the farcical consequence that food for greyhounds is standard-rated, whereas food for racing greyhounds is zero-rated. Whatever your views on the ethics of greyhound-racing, this is madness.
I was bitten by a dog on the hand about 17 years ago (not badly but enough to go to hospital just to have it all checked out and see if I needed some shots) but it was kind of expected under the circumstances considering it was in its own yard and was attacking a dog that had wandered onto the property after someone had left the side gate open.
I was attempting to break up the fight and to be fair I can imagine the dog doing me quite a bit more damage since it wasn't mine and I was being pretty robust towards it in trying to get it to unlock its jaw around the other dogs neck. If it wasn't for the fact that there were about 8 of us there playing cards on the verandah (and pretty drunk :laughing: ) I doubt I'd have anything to do with getting involved in a dog fight.
As for certain breeds, if the dogs are kept secure and the owners are responsible then I dont really mind any breed being aggressive, but its not really an issue around where I live currently so I haven't really had to deal with it.
Ban all dogs! Go knocking on everyone's door and take their dog out of their home. They must surrender ownership of their dog to the state. Round up all the dogs and dispose of them anyway you want. Euthanasia, burning, drowing but when it is being done a cat must be in the vicinity to watch as the dog expires!
This was not written by a cat but a hooman.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Oct 05, 2023, 03:22 PMBan all dogs! Go knocking on everyone's door and take their dog out of their home. They must surrender ownership of their dog to the state. Round up all the dogs and dispose of them anyway you want. Euthanasia, burning, drowing but when it is being done a cat must be in the vicinity to watch as the dog expires!
This was not written by a cat but a hooman.
(https://static.timesofisrael.com/www/uploads/2016/01/kit-e1452266171252-1024x640.jpg)
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/112/471/9ec.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/KD5tjyp/20231026-170449.jpg)
Excel Bully.
(https://nt.global.ssl.fastly.net/binaries/content/gallery/website/national/regions/wales/places/marloes-sands-and-mere/library/summer/visitor-walking-pembrokeshire-coast-path-marloes-sands-1434587.jpg)
Who would not enjoy walking along this public footpath, near Rydlios in Wales?
Sadly, anyone who reads this story may have second thoughts, along the lines of "where can I hide from a dog up here?! How quickly could I be helicoptered out?!"
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-67464124 : Four Injured In Dangerous Dog Attack
These kinds of incidents make me so angry because of the way they are robbing people of their once-tranquil heritage, that Britain, over centuries, has tried to protect for the enjoyment of everyone. :(