Overrated Artists

[Lexi Darling]

Yeah I never cared for Gaga's forays into jazz but I kinda treat that as just a side project and I don't hold it against her track record. I still think The Fame/Monster/Born This Way is an incredible run of pop records.

Maybe overall as an artist I can see her being overrated. I've certainly been very hit or miss on enjoying her stuff from the past 10 years, mostly miss to be honest. The best thing she's released in a long time was the 2021 remix album, I enjoyed that a lot.

[SGR]

Bob Dylan
I don't hate him, but I've never understood why he gets so much love. After seeing him live last week, I really don't understand why he gets so much love

I saw him live around 10 years ago and he looked ancient back then.

[Trollheart]

I would tentatively agree about KC. I've been trying to get into their music and while it's true that In the Court of the Crimson King is a major prog record (though not, as Guybrush says, sorry but incorrectly, the first prog record - trust someone who has researched back into the history of the genesis (sorry) of Prog, and it goes way back further than that) overall what I've heard of their output since has been kind of meh. I mean, mostly not bad, but nothing I would acclaim or see any reason for it earning such praise. Mind you, do remember I'm the one living being on this planet who shrugs at Yes's Close to the Edge, so what do I know?

However...

I MUST take issue with his comment on John Wetton's singing (RIP). The man was a great singer, and helped Asia to sell millions of albums, never mind his solo output, that with Wishbone Ash, UK, Roxy Music, Icon and others. He had a very distinctive voice (clearly demarcated when John Payne took over Asia) and while he would not be one of my favourite singers, I do love his English take on the prog rock vocal. He was also a damned good bass player and an excellent songwriter. Come on; the man deserves more respect.

[Guybrush]

I would tentatively agree about KC. I've been trying to get into their music and while it's true that In the Court of the Crimson King is a major prog record (though not, as Guybrush says, sorry but incorrectly, the first prog record - trust someone who has researched back into the history of the genesis (sorry) of Prog, and it goes way back further than that) overall what I've heard of their output since has been kind of meh. I mean, mostly not bad, but nothing I would acclaim or see any reason for it earning such praise. Mind you, do remember I'm the one living being on this planet who shrugs at Yes's Close to the Edge, so what do I know?

However...

I MUST take issue with his comment on John Wetton's singing (RIP). The man was a great singer, and helped Asia to sell millions of albums, never mind his solo output, that with Wishbone Ash, UK, Roxy Music, Icon and others. He had a very distinctive voice (clearly demarcated when John Payne took over Asia) and while he would not be one of my favourite singers, I do love his English take on the prog rock vocal. He was also a damned good bass player and an excellent songwriter. Come on; the man deserves more respect.

I didn't claim KC's album is the first prog album. I just pointed out it's hailed as. It's part of its legacy, true or not. I would never make any such claim because I know the futility of applying this arbitrary delineation to a multitude of gradually evolving musical expression.

I did go a bit far when I wrote that Fripp was better in Giles, Giles and Fripp and that his guitar playing is sterile shit. That was hyperbole. But I'll never gel with Wetton's vocals. You call his voice distinctive. Yes, distinctively unpleasant. For me, anyways. One of prog's worst voices, along with Peter Hammill. Peter Gabriel is often annoying too - until he gets out of Genesis, cuts down on the theatrics a little bit and then he's wonderful.

[Trollheart]

So now you're just trying to get me going? Gabriel? You dare slur one of the most revered voices in prog? A pox upon you, sir! I challenge you to a duel! Choose your weapon - Mellotron? Hammond Organ? Piano?   

Come on, seriously now. You can say you don't like Gabriel's voice (how, I don't know, but that's your right) but to call both him and his role model annoying? Gabriel may have been a little over-theatrical with Genesis, but that's what prog in the seventies was all about. And sure, you can say you don't like Wetton's vocal, but saying he has "an awful singing voice" is just insulting the man. He's not for you, that's fine, but don't go saying he can't sing, or words to that effect. Have you listened to Asia?

[Lisnaholic]

I think..
King Crimson
Their debut is hailed as the first prog rock album and universally loved and later on they seem to have become a band that you'd get if only you're smart enough. For myself, I like some of their songs, but I recently tried to watch a concert from their Belew days and I realized I just don't enjoy their music all that much. It is experimental and kudos to them for finding a unique sound a few times in their career, but it's never been that enjoyable. They seem to encompass some of the worst traits of prog rock. A good analogy is Fripp's later robotic approach to guitar playing. It's kinda unique, but also sounding like sterile shit.

Bruford is better with Yes. Belew is better with Frank Zappa. Levin was better with Peter Gabriel. John Wetton has an awful singing voice and the good parts of Red (my favourite KC album) are the instrumental parts when you don't hear him. Fripp was better in Giles, Giles & Fripp.

^ That opinion of KCrimson resonates with me, as I always feel that I should like their records, but as yet have failed to do so. As for Fripp, I thought he was at his best on the No Pussyfooting album. But, yes, sometimes his Frippertronics albums don't have enough bite to them.
I was pretty disappointed with Giles, Giles & Fripp: too much English whimsy as I recall.

Yeah I never cared for Gaga's forays into jazz but I kinda treat that as just a side project and I don't hold it against her track record. I still think The Fame/Monster/Born This Way is an incredible run of pop records.

That run of discs you mention made Lady Gaga very popular in Mexico, and they contain some great songs imo. For me she kind of burnt herself out and then tried that disastrous re-invention of herself as a crooner alongside T Bennett.

Bob Dylan
I don't hate him, but I've never understood why he gets so much love. After seeing him live last week, I really don't understand why he gets so much love

The guy is so past his heyday now, I'm not surprised that you and SGR were disappointed with your concert experiences: I don't think I'd bother to see him today.
To me, this is the thing with BD: starting from those famous folk roots, he consistently pushed the envelope of what a singer/songwriter could do: his surreal lyrics, the biting hard rock (longest single ever at the time of its release) of Like A Rolling Stone, then the complex stories on Blood on the Tracks, Desire and Street Legal. At the time almost no one came close to writing songs with so much imagery and detail in them, so Dylan, 25 or so years after writing the song that became a folk anthem (Blowing In The Wind) was still out there at the cutting edge.
Here's a couple of fave quotes from those albums:-

Spoiler

Sara:
I laid on a dune, I looked at the sky
When the children were babies and played on the beach
You came up behind me, I saw you go by
You were always so close and still within reach

Sara, Sara.Whatever made you want to change your mind?
Sara, Sara. So easy to look at, so hard to define

I can still see them playin' with their pails in the sand
They run to the water their buckets to fill
I can still see the shells fallin' out of their hands
As they follow each other back up the hill.

Idiot wind:
I kissed goodbye to the howling beast
On the borderline that separated you from me.

Black Diamond Bay:
Up on the wide verandah
she wears a necktie and a
Panama hat.
Her passport shows a face
from another time and place.
She looks nothin like that.

[close]

I was lucky enough to see him in about 1985, sold out at the enormous Earls Court Stadium. From where we sat he wasn't much bigger than my thumb, but as my companion remarked: "It's amazing that so many people have come just to hear this one small guy sing."

[SGR]

@Lisnaholic, I wasn't really disappointed with my experience seeing Bob Dylan. I was just saying that 10 years ago, he looked pretty old, so I could only imagine how he looked now. Back then, he spent about 90% of the concert sitting on a chair. He still played well, and even his voice was still pretty good. There was definitely a visual feeling that he was way past his prime though.

Probably my favorite Dylan track.

[Guybrush]

So now you're just trying to get me going? Gabriel? You dare slur one of the most revered voices in prog? A pox upon you, sir! I challenge you to a duel! Choose your weapon - Mellotron? Hammond Organ? Piano?   

Come on, seriously now. You can say you don't like Gabriel's voice (how, I don't know, but that's your right) but to call both him and his role model annoying? Gabriel may have been a little over-theatrical with Genesis, but that's what prog in the seventies was all about. And sure, you can say you don't like Wetton's vocal, but saying he has "an awful singing voice" is just insulting the man. He's not for you, that's fine, but don't go saying he can't sing, or words to that effect. Have you listened to Asia?

I love Peter Gabriel's voice here:

And then I don't like it here:

I can't be the only one 😄

Similarly, I'd say Wetton is much better with Asia than he is with KC. As an example, the opening of this song is so brilliant and then it does this 180 when we get to Wetton's awful singing part.

[grindy]

I like Wetton overall but he was a bit wonky live, probably due to all the alcoholism.

[Trollheart]

I love Peter Gabriel's voice here:

And then I don't like it here:

Ah well there you have me. I bloody hate that song and Gabriel is - badly - attempting to do a Cockney English accent which always made me believe it was Collins on vocals (it's not). So I will give you that. However, over the entirety of say The Lamb, Gabriel goes through an incredible range of styles and voices, and I think that in itself demonstrates his amazing vocal versatility and range. I'm checking back, but from Trespass on (forget FGtR, I always do) to The Lamb I can't think of a single song on which his vocals annoy me or don't do him justice. Nope: can't find one. So if you're basing your "dislike" of Gabriel's voice on that one song, yes I agree, but that's a very atypical song for him, though he did attempt other accents such as in "Harold the Barrel" and "Get 'em Out by Friday", which for me all worked.

As for Hammill, whom we have not really gone into but whom you also mentioned, his voice I can take or leave, but again you have to admit he has an incredible range. I'm not a huge VDGG fan to be honest, but I have never really had a problem with Hammill's voice, just the overly jazzy and often somewhat experimental side of the band. I don't therefore know one Peter as well as I do the other, but I would consider "Epping Forest" more an aberration, an exception to the rule than anything else.

I can't be the only one 😄

Similarly, I'd say Wetton is much better with Asia than he is with KC. As an example, the opening of this song is so brilliant and then it does this 180 when we get to Wetton's awful singing part.

In terms of King Crimson, I played it and by god yes I see what you mean.I would place a small caveat there, that unlike you, I hated that song. Maybe I'll never be a fan of Fripp and Co., but to me, while Wetton's voice was, as you say, awful there, it didn't ruin the song because I would have disliked it no matter who sang it. However, that's just me.  Perhaps that band did not suit his talents, but I know him mostly from Asia and while I personally prefer John Payne, the man's voice has really affected me on occasions, and in a good way.

He also worked very well with Geoff Downes in Icon and Wetton/Downes.

[Lisnaholic]

@Lisnaholic, I wasn't really disappointed with my experience seeing Bob Dylan. I was just saying that 10 years ago, he looked pretty old, so I could only imagine how he looked now. Back then, he spent about 90% of the concert sitting on a chair. He still played well, and even his voice was still pretty good. There was definitely a visual feeling that he was way past his prime though.

Yes, sorry, I should've read your post with more care. Hurricane is a great song, but not my favourite on that album TBH.
It's a pity that neither of us saw him at age 23:-

...or age 34:-

[Marie Monday]

I still think Bob Dylan's 1966 live album of the royal Albert hall concert that wasn't in the royal Albert hall is one of the best pieces of music ever made (partly due to the Band being the backing band), but I have not the slightest inclination to see him love now. Funny how someone's personality can mar their own brilliance so much

[Trollheart]

I don't care buttons about Dylan, but you have me intrigued now. How was his Royal Albert Hall concert not in the Royal Albert Hall? Asking for a friend. Who, coincidentally, has the same name as me, looks exactly like me and lives in my house. I said it was a coincidence, didn't I?

[Janszoon]

The guy is so past his heyday now, I'm not surprised that you and SGR were disappointed with your concert experiences: I don't think I'd bother to see him today.
To me, this is the thing with BD: starting from those famous folk roots, he consistently pushed the envelope of what a singer/songwriter could do: his surreal lyrics, the biting hard rock (longest single ever at the time of its release) of Like A Rolling Stone, then the complex stories on Blood on the Tracks, Desire and Street Legal. At the time almost no one came close to writing songs with so much imagery and detail in them, so Dylan, 25 or so years after writing the song that became a folk anthem (Blowing In The Wind) was still out there at the cutting edge.

Well, Willie Nelson is almost a decade older than Bob Dylan and he still managed to be pretty great at the show last week. 

I think maybe my issue with Dylan has to do with the fact that I got into Leonard Cohen in my early teens, long before I tried to explore Dylan's back catalogue, so the bar was set pretty high for me. I've honestly never been wowed by Dylan's lyrics the way I have been by Cohen's.

[jimmy jazz]

I think he's great. Love his albums.

Wouldn't want to see him live though.