TikTok - should it be banned in the United States?

[SGR]

I figured I'd create a separate thread for this, because the discussion and issue interests me.

To be honest, I don't use TikTok, but I know a lot about it given I work in the tech sphere.

If you don't know, TikTok is an app that features short videos (like Vines, if you remember those) - it's demographic skews younger (young adult/teen/pre-teen) - and, this is the important part, it's owned by ByteDance, a Chinese company. China themselves don't allow TikTok in their country, which is telling (there's a separate, highly censored TikTok app, known as Douyin, that's accessible in China).

Our politicians often talk about this issue as a matter of data privacy (i.e. Oh no, China might learn about our citizens and capture our searches) - but I view the issue primarily as an influence one - which would affect our national security. Companies in China need to answer to the CCP, and thus, the CCP has an outsized influence on all Chinese companies. As a result, the foreign government of China could boost or suppress certain videos/trends/ideas on the app that would be to their geopolitical advantage over the U.S. It's not a matter of data privacy to me, it's a potential brainwashing issue on our youth.

Oddly, Trump, while in office, vocalized support for a ban - that didn't happen - but now, Trump apparently opposes a ban. Other Republican party members, like Vivek Ramaswamy and Rand Paul also oppose the ban, framing it as a free speech issue (the CCP, in my opinion, is not entitled to 'free speech' in our country).

Meanwhile, Biden has vocalized that he will sign the bill to ban TikTok, if Congress passes it.

So what's going on here? Is Trump simply 'taking the free money' since he can't really do anything to veto/approve a banning of TikTok (while he's out of office)? Is he trying to capture youth voters who might just look at it like: "Which candidate supports TikTok and which one doesn't?" Why would Republicans sign off on an app that is highly addictive (by its nature) when its owned and controlled by a foreign government? Some of them are stupid, but I wouldn't consider either Rand Paul or Vivek Ramaswamy to be in that category. One thought I've had is that our intelligence agencies have already either found out how to capture/spy on TikTok (which makes it a national security asset) - or the Republicans supporting the ban are in some way owned by, or rather have big financial interests in China.

What do you think? Should TikTok be banned? Have you used TikTok? What are your experiences?

[Psy-Fi]

'Lol hey guys' - Biden joins TikTok despite security concerns

[Psy-Fi]

Trump says a TikTok ban would only help 'enemy of the people' Facebook

[SGR]

House passes bill that could lead to a TikTok ban; fight shifts to the Senate

[Psy-Fi]

The U.S. wants ByteDance to sell TikTok. China is almost certainly going to refuse

[SGR]

So the more I learn about this bill, the more it stinks.

It's starting to seem to me that it's not really just about banning TikTok, but rather about giving the executive branch the ability to go after social media companies that they deem a threat to 'national security'. A digital PATRIOT act, if you will. If my understanding is correct, then I completely oppose it. I think TikTok should be divested and sold to American ownership, but if this is the price we have to pay, it's not worth it - don't want to invite that Trojan horse in.

Also, curious that this is all happening shortly after TikTok has boosted pro-Palestine videos that have been bad for Biden's re-election campaign.

[Psy-Fi]

So the more I learn about this bill, the more it stinks.

It's starting to seem to me that it's not really just about banning TikTok, but rather about giving the executive branch the ability to go after social media companies that they deem a threat to 'national security'. A digital PATRIOT act, if you will. If my understanding is correct, then I completely oppose it. I think TikTok should be divested and sold to American ownership, but if this is the price we have to pay, it's not worth it - don't want to invite that Trojan horse in.

Also, curious that this is all happening shortly after TikTok has boosted pro-Palestine videos that have been bad for Biden's re-election campaign.

I don't trust the U.S. government in general and I don't trust the U.S. government when it comes to personal data and information and snooping on people in particular. Plus the fact that the U.S. government, military, and mainstream media have been going out of their way lately to demonize China and make it America's number 1 bogeyman.

Wang Wenbin, a spokesperson for China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs, said Thursday that the U.S. bill is "at odds with the principles of fair competition and international trade rules," according to an NBC News translation.

"If the pretext of national security can be used to suppress excellent companies from other countries arbitrarily, there is no fairness or justice to speak of. It is a complete logic of theft to see something good and try to take it for oneself by any means necessary."

I also agree with that above quote from Mr. Wenbin.

[Psy-Fi]

"The word bipartisan usually means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out."

 - George Carlin

[SGR]

I don't trust the U.S. government in general and I don't trust the U.S. government when it comes to personal data and information and snooping on people in particular. Plus the fact that the U.S. government, military, and mainstream media have been going out of their way lately to demonize China and make it America's number 1 bogeyman.

Fully agreed that the government is not trustworthy when it comes to personal data and spying. Snowden showed us the truth about that. The US government isn't supposed to arbitrarily spy on Americans, but thanks to the Five Eyes intelligence alliance, British intelligence can spy on us Americans all they want and share the data with the US govt. So basically, if you're of interest to the US govt for any reason, they will spy on you, and they don't need a warrant.

I gotta disagree with Mr. Wenbin. There is a real national security risk with allowing TikTok to continue in the same manner it has completely unabated because it's influencing and shaping the minds of young Americans - the Chinese government could boost any issue they want to cause conflict internally within the US or cause Americans to become opposed to American geopolitical strategies. I'd hardly call that 'arbitrary'. There's a reason the Chinese government doesn't allow the version of TikTok we know as Americans in their own country.

Again though, if the ramifications of the bill allow the executive branch to shutdown American social media companies, this is pork barrel bullshit.

[Psy-Fi]

A Vital Question on This New, Bipartisan TikTok Ban

[Psy-Fi]

The TikTok Ban Will Backfire

[Mindy]

It's not a matter of data privacy to me, it's a potential brainwashing issue on our youth.

I completely agree with this^, but also adults who are easy to persuade. Mainly politically to divide America. I tried explaining this to someone a couple of weeks ago while I was in Iowa. How someone can see a short political opinion on a tiktok video and brush it off, but if they see 10-15 tiktoks with the same propaganda opinion; they might start to rethink their own opinion.

I don't really think it needs to be banned completely because of all the other content on tiktok that really isn't harmful but just stupid and social media type. You made that dopamine point in that other thread about that Ukrainian girl I met. How flipping through tiktoks is just looking to satisfy dopamine in the brain (technically rewiring the brain too). I agree with you on that, and spending lots of time on tiktok just to flip through videos can be a waste of time, (depending on what content somewhat too).

I personally know active duty and retired military on tiktok, plus intel community members with top secret clearance posting on tiktok and being active. It can be an extremely good surveillance tool but it's a fine line on how you're using the tiktok because it can be addictive if you're a scroller. The algorithm for what videos are tailored to you is effective too, that's probably the part about China where I think is freaky. I agree with you on how China having my personal info for me isn't a concern but them knowing everything I like, who I like, what videos I watch longer than others, etc. thats a concern to me.

If I made the laws, I would just ask for a partnership with our government for moderation on the app. I know we have a ton of moderators on the app already but the covert aspects on the information instead of the data.

[DJChameleon]

I don't think TikTok is brainwashing the youth. TikTok has on the ground reporters in civilians in Gaza. It's the purest form of free speech. You get to really see what's going on.

Data privacy angle is BS. If the government was so worried about our data privacy they would involve meta in their crackdowns along with data brokers. If China wants our information all they have to do is buy it from data brokers that have complete free reign in the states. They sell our information to third parties all the time and not a word from Congress.

They just want to demonize China more to the public so it makes sense when we finally go to war with China. More people will be on board with it.

[Guybrush]

I don't have too much to say as I'm neither American or a tiktok user, but I think it's highly probable that both the brainwashing concern and data collection/spying concerns are legit. I'm not sure tiktok is worse than, say, Facebook who already have provided Russia or other nations a new way to attack and destabilize other nations, but the concern is very legit.

The problem is bigger than tiktok, though. I think there should be global regulation. I'm just firing from the hip here, but something like a treaty / agreement on what these companies and their algorithms are allowed to do and the establishing of some agency perhaps who have access to tools/help that allow them to analyse what these companies are doing and how these algorithms work. Companies should have to provide access into their systems for control and logging purposes and if they don't comply, they should be banned in the countries who signed the treaty.

It's just an idea off the top of my head, but I'm sure a lot of this stuff exists already and just needs to be organised.

[SGR]

I don't think TikTok is brainwashing the youth. TikTok has on the ground reporters in civilians in Gaza. It's the purest form of free speech. You get to really see what's going on.

Data privacy angle is BS. If the government was so worried about our data privacy they would involve meta in their crackdowns along with data brokers. If China wants our information all they have to do is buy it from data brokers that have complete free reign in the states. They sell our information to third parties all the time and not a word from Congress.

They just want to demonize China more to the public so it makes sense when we finally go to war with China. More people will be on board with it.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your view on the data privacy angle, I do disagree with your assessment of TikTok as the purest form of free speech.

The problem here for me is that TikTok is driven by an algorithm. This algorithm is controlled by the Chinese government. And the algorithm itself could be described as a form of 'intelligence'. Like many social media algorithms, it adjusts the content you see based on the content you engage with. But that's not the whole story. TikTok and ByteDance employees also have the ability to utilize a 'heating' button to make whatever content they choose go viral. It's a manual manipulation, boosting content to eyes and brains of young Americans, controlled by China. While you might agree that Israel should be criticized for their actions, and you disagree with their conduct (and personally, I have a lot of issues with how they're handling things as well), there's been a perception among many that TikTok has one-sidedly boosted anti-semitic/anti-Israel content in the wake of the war. Is it just a coincedence that this content is in opposition with the position and actions of the US government, a geopolitical superpower that China would like to displace? Another example would be late last year, when many videos went viral on TikTok reading Bin Laden's letter to America, promoting sympathy for Bin Laden/Al Qaeda and breeding anti-American sentiment.

I disagree that this is simply 'demonizing China'. You and I both know that China does not value or have free speech, and it would not make sense that they'd want to promote 'free speech' through video content to Americans. And you and I both know that if America had their own 'TikTok', with complete American control of the algorithm and what content gets promoted, China would ban that shit so fast, it'd make your head spin. And I think they'd be completely in the right to do so. America has done plenty of demonization of China in the past, without real substantiated merit - but I don't think this TikTok issue is one of them. As long as it remains in Chinese control, it truly is a national security threat.

According to some sources, OpenAI's GPT-4 is '82% more persuasive than humans' - once AI's like these are integrated into something as internationally widespread as TikTok, it could truly be the greatest geopolitical weapon of all time. Rather than making your geopolitical enemies submit via force (bombs, war, nukes), you could make them submit simply through persuasion (brainwashing). Of course, if we (America) are going to allow China to do this, while China forbids us to do it, it's pretty obvious who's going to be brainwashed.

All this being said, I don't think TikTok will be banned in the US, because there's simply too much money at stake.