2024 US Presidential Election

[Marie Monday]

Well fuck. Rationally I expected this, but I suppose you can't help hoping anyway. Just awful.

[QuantumSync]

[Lisnaholic]

A Trump win and a Republican Senate

It can't get much more disappointing than that. I´m surprised that so many Americans were prepared to overlook Trump's blatant flaws and have chosen a senile felon to run their country.

Go ahead, SGR - post all the "told you so" comments you like: as a matter of honour I will read them with humility, but I'm going to take a break from US politics , I think. I really can't face listening to a bunch of emboldened, crowing Republicans outlining their revenge strategies and stomping all over the environment, the truth, and civil liberties.

[Marie Monday]

Same

[Trollheart]

I won't be so crass as to post a funny gif, as I know this is fucking serious, especially for you guys. I feared this though: when I went to bed Trump had 217 and I just kept saying "Oh fuck! He only needs 53!" And Harris was nowhere near. Then I turned the telly on and there was the news I had - we all had - dreaded. Another four years of that fascist cunt, and now the Senate is gone and the House is under threat, turning America redder than the faces of Harris's campaign team.

If I can sound a note of "told you so", I think the Dems brought this on themselves. Biden was clearly past it, and galloping senility was running at least the last year of his presidency, but the party would not see it and would not make him aware that he could not and should not run for another term. The choice of Harris at essentially the eleventh hour smacked of desperation and showed that the Dems didn't trust their own candidate (Biden) to win, and what message does that send to the electorate? As we saw with John Kerry in 2004, you have to have a strong, popular, capable candidate, and the Democrats don't seem to have had that type of candidate since Obama: let's be honest here - Biden was a shit choice and was really an "anyone but Trump" candidate put up by the Dems. So they haven't had a strong choice since the  2008 - 2012 elections.

God only knows what's going to happen now. Trump talks a lot of shit about "day one" but the last time he didn't do the things he had promised/threatened to do, so let's just hope. The main fear is the threat of the far right coming much more to the fore and into positions of power, and Biden's initiatives being reversed. Race, religion, gender, rich/poor... there's a lot to fear, and I worry for people like our @Lexi Darling , who must have woken up with a real sense of desperation and fear that her country is now going to be set against her, almost at war with her through the White House and Congress. I wish I could help.

What about Ukraine? Zelensky must be in a similar sort of dread, knowing Trump is going to weigh in on Putin's side, and Israel? What happens in Gaza? Where do women stand now, in terms of abortion rights, and is Trump really going to start mass deportations of illegal immigrants? Time will tell, but it's a done deal now, and not even a narrow victory, but although not a landslide, it really wasn't even close.

If there's any tiny sliver of silver in this dark, threatening cloud, perhaps it's that, with their candidate now president-elect, the chances of violence erupting in the wake of the election result surely have receded now; I can't see Harris supporters storming the Capitol, let's say. It will in all likelihood be a more peaceful transition of power than last time. What happens after he again plonks his fat orange arse on the chair in the Oval Office, I guess we'll find out.

His second presidency will affect us too, but probably more peripherally, as our government and more importantly Downing Street come to terms with having to deal with another Trump administration, and it really does look like there are some dark days ahead. But they're going to fundamentally affect you guys, and I feel for you, and fear for you.

It would be easy to berate the American people as being thick and stupid and unable to see past their own selfish concerns and ignore the darker threat presented by what they have empowered this man to do by electing him, but as I said at the beginning, the Dems have to share the blame: they just simply made an arse of the last four years, then when it looked like Biden might actually wet himself on the campaign trail, pivoted at the last moment and presented a candidate who could almost have been created in a Democrat lab, ticking many boxes if not all, and generally just looked like a party scrambling, all through the last four years really, to clean up his mess and really the best message they put across, to me, was "Hey, at least he/she isn't Trump!" That, clearly, would not do, and I suppose must have figured in the minds of many who voted. You kind of can't blame them, but it's pretty terrifying to think of the horrble nasty blighted harvest America - and by extension, the world - is going to reap from the rotten seeds planted yesterday, and which germinated overnight.

[Janszoon]

A Trump win and a Republican Senate

It can't get much more disappointing than that. I´m surprised that so many Americans were prepared to overlook Trump's blatant flaws and have chosen a senile felon to run their country.

Go ahead, SGR - post all the "told you so" comments you like: as a matter of honour I will read them with humility, but I'm going to take a break from US politics , I think. I really can't face listening to a bunch of emboldened, crowing Republicans outlining their revenge strategies and stomping all over the environment, the truth, and civil liberties.

It's fucked. I'm so angry at dumbfucks in my state for voting for the con man.

[SGR]

Harris to concede defeat to Trump in evening speech, sources say

[Marie Monday]

I won't be so crass as to post a funny gif, as I know this is fucking serious, especially for you guys.

yeah that went through my head too. Its easy to treat it lightly if you're not likely to be directly threatened by this due to your demographic or nationality, but I think that's callous

[Janszoon]

Harris to concede defeat to Trump in evening speech, sources say

Unlike Trump, she's not a not a seditionist.

[Trollheart]

You know what's weird about this? Everything. But particularly odd is the ex-Trump aide on CNN today who was actively trying to get the Dems to admit they wouldn't cede power, saying "So you call Trump a fascist, and you're going to concede power to a fascist?" His twisted logic, I assume, being that if you think the new president is a fascist you should not accept him (right out of the Trump playbook, minus the fascist bit), which then makes YOU a fascist. But they didnt fall for it, saying of course she'll (Harris) concede, because that's how politics works. You may not agree with the person who won, but you accept they did. And yer man still scratching his head and saying "She'll concede to a fascist?" Unbelievable the way they twist things, and this is only the beginning.

[SGR]

Jack Smith moving to wind down prosecutions against Trump

[Marie Monday]

by the way if anyone knows any way in which a european can help and do their part in this nightmare, let me know. I'm so fucking fed up with feeling powerless

[SGR]

You know what's weird about this? Everything. But particularly odd is the ex-Trump aide on CNN today who was actively trying to get the Dems to admit they wouldn't cede power, saying "So you call Trump a fascist, and you're going to concede power to a fascist?" His twisted logic, I assume, being that if you think the new president is a fascist you should not accept him (right out of the Trump playbook, minus the fascist bit), which then makes YOU a fascist. But they didnt fall for it, saying of course she'll (Harris) concede, because that's how politics works. You may not agree with the person who won, but you accept they did. And yer man still scratching his head and saying "She'll concede to a fascist?" Unbelievable the way they twist things, and this is only the beginning.

This is the rub with democracy. If the worst fears of democrats and liberals come to pass, the system will look like two wolves and lamb voting on what's for dinner. Sometimes, the 'dinner' could simply be your tax dollars being allocated in a way you don't agree with - other times, obviously, 'dinner' is much more precarious (like war being declared and a draft being instituted).

It's a problem with the system that is pretty well hinted at by @Lisnaholic below:

^ That's also my outsider's assessment of the US at the moment: with such a stark contrast between the two candidates and the two parties, the fact that the polls are so close is a worrying sign of the inability of the electorate to work out what's best for democracy.

In a democracy, voters are voting on more than just the health, maintenance and stability of the system that allows them to vote. I don't have the polls offhand, but there are polls out there that show how relatively low January 6th was on voters' list of concerns/priorities. People are voting for a whole host of issues, and most of them don't strictly require a system of democracy to be in place to fix them, whether that's the economy, immigration, or even abortion. Democracy can be inherently self-destructive. Or in other words, democracy is the means by which voters submit their prescriptions to their elected government...but democracy isn't necessarily a prescription in and of itself.

Here's the other issue: the crux of democracy is an inherent trust in the judgement and wisdom not of an individual, but the people as a collective. This has been something that Lisna and I have discussed many times, but obviously people are very fallible in both their judgement and their wisdom. In my estimation, as I've stated many times before, emotions are a bigger motivator and deciding factor in how someone votes than a robust and precise dissection and understanding of the policy platforms and implications of said platforms are. And it gets more complicated in the digital age with the information people are consuming, and how social media and all the accompanying algorithms silo us in feedback loops to keep us engaged - it plays on anger, frustration, outrage, etc all in a bid to boost profits and increase ad revenue. How effective can democracy be when both sides are largely constrained to their own information echo chambers? A topic for a different time perhaps.

So that's the paradox that Democrats will have wrestle and come to terms with: that the democracy that they cherish, laud and want to protect can, at the same time, result in who they believe to be one of, if not the most anti-democratic candidates in US history winning the election not just in the electoral college, but in the popular vote as well. They lost the election and popular vote to Donald Trump: a convicted felon, a man who tried to overturn the 2020 election, a former president who was impeached twice, had his mugshot taken, and had his mug shot at. A man who banged a porn star, cheated on his wives (and claims to be a Christian), and stiffed his business associates. Americans knew full well who he was, what his character is, and what he represents, and the majority of voters still rejected Democrats in favor of him.

It's probably too soon for serious soul-searching among Democrats, but the time to honestly reflect on how this happened will come soon (it's possibly a good idea for a thread topic after the dust settles). First will come the inevitable sorrow, anger, grief, and blame-game finger-pointing. But after that's all done, and the wounds are all licked and healed, they need to reform their message, their priorities, and their vision. Otherwise, in 4 years, when Trump is on his way out and they can no longer position their greatest asset as being 'not Trump', they will struggle and very possibly lose again.

When it comes to my own takeaways, I'll refer back to what I said a couple weeks ago - Kamala was a profoundly weak candidate, who didn't have a clear message or vision, wasn't particularly likeable or relatable, and wasn't a good communicator - and she wasn't selected by the voters - despite all that, I think there are of course other reasons why the Republicans and Trump did so well - namely, despite his own protestations to this particular point in this election, James Carville's very famous and ever-relevant: "It's the economy, stupid", but I'll leave it there for now.

The great irony, and the story that might be told if Democrats lose is: the party that hollered and clamored about Trump's threat to democracy lost an election to him because they themselves circumvented democracy by being dishonest and incurious about their sitting president's health and mental fitness - and as a result, they (the party elites) decided to coronate their eventual nominee by committee, instead of by the vetting will of their electorate. In other words, it won't be the Democrat voters faults, blame would rest squarely on the shoulders of the party bigwigs and the media who ran cover for them for the open and fair primary the Democrat voter was ultimately denied.

[Guybrush]

I'm sorry for the results of the election. I was expecting it. Such a shame, though.

Also thinking of you, @Lexi Darling 😐 I wish your country treated you better.

[Trollheart]

@SGR you make a lot of good points, and the one you quoted of your own is more or less what I said too: Trump almost essentially did not win this election, Harris and her party lost. If the Dems had a) shot down Biden when they saw how ga-ga he was going b) kept some sort of control over the economy and their other policies, and actually cared how they were being perceived and c) chose a better candidate to go up against him, not to mention d) shouting "Vote for her! She's not great but at least she's not Trump!" then maybe they would have had a better chance. But as you say, top of every voter's list was the economy (how is my job/home/family doing?) and immigration (send them home) - everything else, including the expected hot topic, abortion, came really really low on everyone's list, no matter which party they identified with or eventually voted for.

Trump won, but really the Dems handed the White House back to him. Again. Will they learn? Time will tell, but history doesn't make an optimistic barometer of that, does it?