2024 US Presidential Election

[DJChameleon]

Why would anybody on the left support RFK Jr.?

Because he has progressive positions if you ever heard him talk about policies.

Well his VP Nicole Shanahan was on a podcast the other day and that's the first I heard of the possibility (from either of them) that they might drop out and endorse Trump, because, according to Shanahan, "we draw somehow more votes from Trump":

That's been one of the big mysteries of this campaign cycle - does RFK Jr. siphon more votes from Trump or from Biden (and now Kamala)? Who is RFK Jr. more likely to be a spoiler for? If Nicole Shanahan is to be taken at her word, she believes they're drawing more support from Trump. Maybe that's based on internal polls or something, not sure. Or maybe she's simply being dishonest. I don't have a straight answer, as I haven't done much digging on the recent polling on that.

I have heard RFK Jr. say that as well that they draw more votes away from Trump than Biden. If they are drawing votes away from Trump why would those same voters suddenly just hop on board with Trump? They wouldn't.

[Shhon]

[SGR]

I have heard RFK Jr. say that as well that they draw more votes away from Trump than Biden. If they are drawing votes away from Trump why would those same voters suddenly just hop on board with Trump? They wouldn't.

Perhaps we're simply thinking about it differently, but this is what that means to me:

"Draw more votes away from Trump" - voters who would be more inclined to vote for Trump if RFK Jr. wasn't in the race
"Draw more votes away from Biden/Kamala" - voters who would be more inclined to vote for Biden/Kamala if RFK Jr. wasn't in the race

If someone does support RFK Jr. and RFK Jr. withdraws and comes out with an endorsement for a candidate, and explains succinctly and reasonably why he did so, I think it would be fair to assume that there'd be some measure of support boost (not all of his supporters, but some) for his endorsed candidate from previous RFK Jr supporters who trust his judgement. Part of the question though is what percentage of his supporters is that? A majority? A minority? And for the remaining percentage, do they vote for the other candidate, vote a different third party candidate, do a write-in, or abstain from voting?

[Psy-Fi]

RFK Jr. as Trump's health secretary? Here's what he wants to do

[DJChameleon]

Perhaps we're simply thinking about it differently, but this is what that means to me:

"Draw more votes away from Trump" - voters who would be more inclined to vote for Trump if RFK Jr. wasn't in the race
"Draw more votes away from Biden/Kamala" - voters who would be more inclined to vote for Biden/Kamala if RFK Jr. wasn't in the race

If someone does support RFK Jr. and RFK Jr. withdraws and comes out with an endorsement for a candidate, and explains succinctly and reasonably why he did so, I think it would be fair to assume that there'd be some measure of support boost (not all of his supporters, but some) for his endorsed candidate from previous RFK Jr supporters who trust his judgement. Part of the question though is what percentage of his supporters is that? A majority? A minority? And for the remaining percentage, do they vote for the other candidate, vote a different third party candidate, do a write-in, or abstain from voting?

a lot of valid questions that are yet to be determined imo. We shall see in the coming weeks. He does have progressive platform takes that I think doesn't really gel with the right's base though.

[SGR]

a lot of valid questions that are yet to be determined imo. We shall see in the coming weeks. He does have progressive platform takes that I think doesn't really gel with the right's base though.

Oh I completely agree. He's also got right wing views as well though. Although we largely (in the public consciousness) associate anti-vaxxers with the right now after the pandemic, decades before that, those views existed and were in many ways apolitical, but there was at least an association between them, whether fairly or not, with the "clean-living hippy" types on the left. It was largely the left, with good reason, who criticized big pharma. The reality now unfortunately is that big pharma gives boatloads of money to both the left and the right in donations.

[Lucem Ferre]

I think his antisemitic conspiracy theories are what get him called right-wing. I've only ever seen libertarian types the support him.

[SGR]

I think his antisemitic conspiracy theories are what get him called right-wing. I've only ever seen libertarian types the support him.

I think we humans have an inherent desire to label and classify things, and to essentially put them in a 'box'. It often simplifies things and is a shortcut to understanding, despite the nuances it might overlook (not accusing you of this by the way, just speaking generally). This tendency of ours can sometimes be employed very usefully, while at other times, it does us a disservice.

As we've seen recently, anti-semitism is not a unique feature of the far-right, it can also be found in the far-left (and no, I don't think simply protesting the war in Gaza and calling for the end of US aid to Israel in their war there to be antisemitic in its nature, and I do think groups like the ADL have been quick to label such things as 'anti-semitic' [again, an attempt to put things in a box and label it] as a political cudgel to blunt dissent and fair criticism of Israel).

I think the fact that RFK Jr. believes in 'conspiracy theories' (not just anti-semitic ones) more generally is probably why many see him as right-wing. I think Trump has largely reshaped the Republican party and the right in his image since winning in 2016 (note how so many Democrat power players were all present at the DNC - the Clintons, the Obamas, Pelosi, Schumer, etc compared to how many of the Republican old guard were not present at the RNC [Bush, Quayle, Paul Ryan, Pence, Cheney, etc.]). Running as an anti-establishment populist candidate, one of the recurring themes that now characterizes Republicans and the right-wing is a distrust and even a disdain for long-standing institutions and the frequent and persistent doubt that is cast over them and their trustworthiness and credibility (the news media, pharmaceutical companies, 'big tech', the 'deep state', our intelligence agencies, the military and our foreign entanglements, our election systems and their results, the justice system, etc.).

Lexi shared this Forbes article with me a while ago (thanks Lexi!) that runs through, it claims, 'all the conspiracies RFK Jr. promotes - from vaccines to mass shootings'. Some of them are essentially spot on with much of the rhetoric on the right [prescriptions drugs being linked to mass shootings and COVID-19 being a lab-engineered bioweapon].

Of course, while RFK Jr.'s belief in conspiracy theories and what he says about them could be dismissed as rhetoric, he sends out much of the same signals with this rhetoric and these beliefs that Republicans do, which is probably why many on the left dismiss him as a right-wing crank (because they get very similar "signals" from him as they do from Republicans), and many on the right find sympathy for him and his message. His policy positions though seem more like a mixed bag. Here's a decent summary of many of his positions from the NYT.

Some excerpts below:

[Mr. Kennedy then issued a statement saying abortion should be unrestricted until "the baby is viable outside the womb. Therefore I would allow appropriate restrictions on abortion in the final months of pregnancy." His campaign spokeswoman, Stefanie Spear, said Mr. Kennedy believed states should be able to enact limits after the point of viability.

The Kennedy campaign website outlines a policy called "More Choices, More Life," which it says will "dramatically reduce abortion in this country" by expanding the social safety net for mothers and pregnant women. The centerpiece of the plan is a subsidized day care initiative paid for by "redirecting the funds being spent on the war in Ukraine." The campaign also says it will strengthen adoption infrastructure.]

[Mr. Kennedy, a longtime environmental lawyer who helped found a global clean water organization, has pledged to be "the greatest environmental president in American history."

He calls for the elimination of subsidies for fossil fuels, tougher enforcement of laws including the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act and an array of regulations on plastics and chemicals. He also urges more protection of wildlife, lands and waters.]

[Mr. Kennedy has said he would "seal" the southern border, as well as expand opportunities for legal immigration — what his campaign calls "high walls, wide gates."

Ms. Spear said Mr. Kennedy's plan was to finish the wall construction, relying on technology in places where a physical wall is not necessary. The campaign has also backed a policy for increased funding for asylum courts to quickly review cases.]

[Mr. Kennedy claims he would be "the strongest pro-labor president since the 1960s," often rails against corporations and laments the number of Americans who report having to work multiple jobs.

He has proposed a laundry list of ideas to achieve "higher pay and lower bills," from raising the minimum wage to $15 to expanding access to free child care and making student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. (These are similar to proposals that Mr. Biden has tried to enact as president, with mixed results.)

According to the campaign's website, Mr. Kennedy proposes paying for his agenda through sharp cuts to military spending and raising taxes on corporations, as well as by ending "the corporate giveaways, the boondoggles, the bailouts of the too-big-to-fail."]

If Democrats truly believed that RFK Jr. pulled more votes from Trump than from Biden/Kamala, I very much doubt they'd have sued to keep him off the ballot in five states. Because what sense would that make? If he was pulling more votes from Trump (based on whatever internal polling the Democrats are using), and I was in charge of the DNC, I'd be tossing lawsuits at anyone trying to keep him off the ballot. To me, that's an indication that, at least in those states that they're suing to keep him off the ballot, Democrats believe Kennedy hurts their chances more than he helps them. Granted, these lawsuits were filed when Biden was still the nominee, so it's possible that him dropping out and Kamala entering has changed things up completely (from RFK Jr being more damaging to Democrats to RFK Jr being more damaging to Republicans).

[Saulaac]

Just butted in to say that the current discussion is very interesting. If I were to throw in my two European cents, RFK Jr. doesn't seem to be as left wing as his uncle JFK. That said, "JFK avait ses ennuis" ("JFK had people and/or entities bothering him"), and so too does RFK Jr.

Whilst JFK had his ennuis, he didn't have to argue against Conspiracy Theory because it hadn't been coined as a term yet. Which leads me to believe that the Overton Window has shifted over time, and that people's acceptence of normality has moved to the left, and therefore less tolerant of the right.

[SGR]

Just butted in to say that the current discussion is very interesting. If I were to throw in my two European cents, RFK Jr. doesn't seem to be as left wing as his uncle JFK. That said, "JFK avait ses ennuis" ("JFK had people and/or entities bothering him"), and so too does RFK Jr.

Whilst JFK had his ennuis, he didn't have to argue against Conspiracy Theory because it hadn't been coined as a term yet. Which leads me to believe that the Overton Window has shifted over time, and that people's acceptence of normality has moved to the left, and therefore less tolerant of the right.

What about JFK or his policy positions do you think supports the idea that he's more left-wing than RFK Jr.?

Not trying to be combative or dismissive, just curious.

[SGR]

RFK Jr. endorsed Trump. It was a very interesting speech, specifically concerning healthcare, disease, and our food supply. RFK Jr. paints a very grim picture of our health. Here's the full speech if anyone wants to watch. Even though his voice is rough to listen to, I thought it was a great speech, in terms of what RFK Jr. claims to represent and what his values are. Probably a better speech than any Trump has given this election cycle.

[Shhon]

[Psy-Fi]

Cornel West Speech at Abandon Harris


I guess he won't be dropping out to endorse Harris.

[Shhon]

https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1827425526471934192

[DJChameleon]

RFK Jr. endorsed Trump. It was a very interesting speech, specifically concerning healthcare, disease, and our food supply. RFK Jr. paints a very grim picture of our health. Here's the full speech if anyone wants to watch. Even though his voice is rough to listen to, I thought it was a great speech, in terms of what RFK Jr. claims to represent and what his values are. Probably a better speech than any Trump has given this election cycle.

I finally listened to it and the stuff he's talking about aren't things that Trump's platform is interested in. He's a sucker if he believes Trump will apply any of that.

I heard he went to the Harris campaign and they ignored him so he went to Trump and Trump supposedly promised him a role in his cabinet which I doubt he will follow through with that's if he even wins.