2024 US Presidential Election

[SGR]

RFK Jr. to stream his own "real debate" during Trump-Biden debate

Wait, did I read this right? RFK Jr. is going to livestream the debate between Trump and Biden...and then what, pause the stream while he gives his thoughts on the questions and the answers? This sounds awfully goofy. 

[Psy-Fi]

Wait, did I read this right? RFK Jr. is going to livestream the debate between Trump and Biden...and then what, pause the stream while he gives his thoughts on the questions and the answers? This sounds awfully goofy. 

At first, I thought he's going to have a live Q&A session with an audience at the same time as the Biden & Trump debate.

But it might be what you're describing which does seem silly.

[DJChameleon]

Wait, did I read this right? RFK Jr. is going to livestream the debate between Trump and Biden...and then what, pause the stream while he gives his thoughts on the questions and the answers? This sounds awfully goofy. 

No it doesn't sound goofy. It sounds like he has the pulse of the youth. He's IRL streaming the debate similar to like Hasan commenting on the debate but without a live audience just chatters.

[SGR]

No it doesn't sound goofy. It sounds like he has the pulse of the youth. He's IRL streaming the debate similar to like Hasan commenting on the debate but without a live audience just chatters.

That's a good point, and certainly one way to frame it.

I guess in my head, I'm just seeing it much differently than a streamer like Hasan livestreaming it and commenting on it between bites of his ramen. I'm picturing RFK Jr. in a suit and tie, up at some podium with the the debate being projected on the screen behind him - with frequent pauses for him to address the different points (with his vocal issue, the stream will literally need to be paused for him to have enough time to make his points, unlike streamers like Hasan who commentate while it's running live). Also, whereas Hasan would probably be more prone to aim the majority of his criticism at Trump (not to say he doesn't have plenty of criticisms of Biden too), I could see RFK Jr. criticizing and rebutting both candidates just about equally. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out, and who he actually has more criticism for (you'd think it would be Trump, but his party also basically cast him out).

[DJChameleon]

@SGR


Did you watch RFK's version?

If they don't introduce a new candidate during DNC. Trump is winning in November.

[Psy-Fi]

ABC News: Biden falters in high-stakes debate, Trump spews falsehoods

Axios: Biden blunders dominate combative debate with Trump

BBC: Biden's incoherent debate performance heightens fears over his age

CBS News: Biden struggles early in presidential debate with hoarse voice

CNN: Biden's poor showing and Trump's repeated falsehoods

Daily Beast: Biden's Re-Election Is Doomed by Disastrous Debate

Drudge Report: Operation: Replace Biden — Debate Catastrophe

HuffPost: Biden Primetime Disaster — Full Dem Panic — Biden Replacement Talk

NBC News: A 'hoarse' Biden stumbles over his words during shaky performance

New York Post: Biden's candidacy in doubt after weak, frozen debate performance against Trump leaves Dems in 'aggressive panic'

New York Times: Biden Struggles as Trump Blusters

Politico: Biden Bombs, Trump Pounces

Washington Post: Biden struggles, Trump deflects questions

[SGR]

@SGR


Did you watch RFK's version?

If they don't introduce a new candidate during DNC. Trump is winning in November.

I did not, I just watched the regular one.

Unless Biden has a complete bounceback from this performance in the next debate (assuming it happens), I'd tend to agree with your assessment. They're both old, but the visual contrast in the splitscreen, with Trump talking and getting through his points with about as much conciseness as you ever see Trump manage with Biden on the other side, appearing semi-frozen, his mouth hanging open, is a stark contrast indeed. Someone said, which I thought was hilarious, that Biden often appeared like a frog eyeing a fly. 

I did not know which Trump or which Biden was going to show up at the debate last night. Would we see the energetic and fiery Biden from the State of the Union, or the more dour, and 'low-energy' Biden we see in many of his public appearances? We appeared to get the latter. Would we get the combative and aggressive Trump that is most commonly seen at his rallies or would we get the more restrained and 'low-energy' Trump? We got the latter. Based on reports, Biden's team was preparing for the possibilities of both Trumps.

In an ironic way, and I'm actually surprised by this, the rules that the Biden team dictated that Trump accepted (no audience, mic muting when it's not your turn to talk, etc) actually seemed to help Trump. Without mic muting, we saw in 2020 that Trump was happy to try and steamroll Biden (interrupt him, goad him constantly, interject quips), which just made Trump look like an obnoxious bully and made Biden appear more sympathetic. This debate, he seemed to be more focused than usual on getting his point across quickly without the fluff - and he very rarely appeared to bully Biden (he could've made more references than he did about how he didn't even understand what Biden was saying). Without the crowd there, it probably also helped Trump focus as with the crowd, he might've gone into rally mode and went off on a tangent about sharks, or tried to get quips in at Biden's expense to try and get applause, which he didn't really do.

Biden spent 7 days with 16 debate prep aides at Camp David, and I honestly think he was overprepared. He seemed to try to remember stats and figures from his notes and preparations and repeat them ("We have a thousand trillionaires....excuse me, billionaires in America"), but he repeatedly flubbed them and instead of moving on and rolling with what he said (which is what Trump often does when he makes mistakes), he started stuttering to correct himself so that what he said was true. It just looked bad optically. Whichever one of Biden's aides thought that rehearsing with Biden to repeat stats and figures was a good idea should be fired. The guy wasn't good at doing that four years ago, why would you think he'd be good at doing it now? They should've played to Biden's strengths in regards to Trump, and that would be appearing more empathetic. He should've had more lines, from the Bill Clinton school of debating, about 'feeling the pain of everyday working Americans'.

For Trump, who I think had an above average performance overall, he is still absolutely awful at rebutting the media hoaxes that Biden brought up against him. He did okay rebutting the "suckers and losers" story, but Biden decided to bring up the "very fine people on both sides hoax" again, and Trump was just terrible at rebutting that. He should have kept it simple and made reference to the fact that Snopes recently marked the story as false on their website if he wanted credibility with independents/liberals, otherwise, to the average viewer, it sounds like a "he said/she said" situation.

I'm fairly politically in tune (I consume a lot of politics), but Biden seemed worse than I expected in terms of his voice and energy. It wasn't just the fact that we didn't get the fiery "State of the Union" Biden, but his voice seemed really hoarse. It sounded like the guy was getting over a cold. If that's the case, talk about awful timing because it just made him look older.

While some on the right were decrying and warning that the moderators at CNN (Jake Tapper and Dana Bash) would be incredibly biased in the way they handled the debate, I don't think that was the case at all. I'd like to give them credit because I think they were, for the most part, very fair and solid.

One other thing that really surprised me was the way the political analysts on CNN were talking right after in their post debate analysis. They're a left leaning media company, but these analysts were putting Biden through the wringer. One said that the party has lied to us about Biden's physical and mental state, and another even raised the possibility of replacing Biden on the ticket. If the Dems were to do that, who knows how it would go down - it would probably be pretty messy. As far as I know, the delegates/superdelegates that are already pledged to Biden remain that way...unless perhaps he resigned. I'm not sure how that would work honestly, but I doubt they're actually thinking about replacing him - it just seems too late to do that. 

[DJChameleon]

Yeah Biden would have to willingly give up the delegates and I don't think he will.

He was getting over a cold so that's why he was hoarse in the beginning. Whoever decided not to drug him up so that he was more alert like during the state of the union is the one that dropped the ball.

Trump's performance wasn't above average to me. All he did the whole time was lie and not answer questions. Only like once or twice did the moderators catch it and press him to answer the question and he still skirted around it.

[SGR]

Yeah Biden would have to willingly give up the delegates and I don't think he will.

He was getting over a cold so that's why he was hoarse in the beginning. Whoever decided not to drug him up so that he was more alert like during the state of the union is the one that dropped the ball.

Trump's performance wasn't above average to me. All he did the whole time was lie and not answer questions. Only like once or twice did the moderators catch it and press him to answer the question and he still skirted around it.

Yeah, I'd agree with you. I don't see Biden willingly giving up the delegates either. But damn, awful fucking timing for a cold.

Trump, from what I remember, answered most of the questions except for the one about child care. He completely skirted that one. One thing he did do frequently though was use his 2 minute time after being asked a question to respond to what Biden previously said about the previous topic of debate, before then, giving a brief answer to the current question. Given the format of the debate, it seemed like a pretty effective strategy to me. In terms of lying, they both lied all night long, which is pretty standard fare in these debates. And unfortunately, I don't think these debates typically influence voter decisions that much, but for the influence they do have, it's more about optics and sound bites, rather than adherence to facts.

Trump could've done his usual thing of being petty and vindictive towards Biden, but he didn't do that. He remained uncharacteristically calm and poised and kept his tangential ramblings to mostly a minimum. That's why I found his performance to be above average (for his own standards, that is). If you would've told me before the debate that one of the candidates would say: "Let's not act like children", I would not have bet it would be Trump that said it:

[Psy-Fi]

Biden says he doesn't debate as well as he used to but knows "how to tell the truth"

[SGR]

Biden says he doesn't debate as well as he used to but knows "how to tell the truth"

So that appears to be the best recourse message that the Democrats have after that mess of a debate. 'Biden didn't debate well, but he told the truth.' Which isn't true, in the sense that he didn't lie (maybe he lied less than Trump, not sure), but it's worth a shot I guess. 

You wanna see something funny? Listen to Joe Scarborough explain how this version of Biden we have now is the best version of Biden there's ever been. This was from only three months ago.

If a Democrat largely paid attention to clowns like this guy, I'd understand why some of them were so shocked after watching the debate.

[SGR]

For all the thrashing Biden is getting for his debate performance, he did have some good moments. When he went after Trump for having sex with a porn star (Stormy Daniels) while his wife (Melania) was pregnant - and then he said the most old-timey thing I heard the whole debate: "You have the morals of an alley cat!"   

Body language is key. Notice how Trump's head shakes in disagreement when he mentions having sex with the porn star (I'm sure he was prepared for that), but then notice how his head nods in a visual sign of agreement (yes) when he mentions he did it when Melania was pregnant. Trump then denies having sex with a porn star but doesn't address the Melania thing. My guess is when Biden said that about how Melania was pregnant at the time, Trump felt guilty and remorseful (which he obviously wouldn't verbalize in a debate). That's the body language reading I got, at least.

[Lisnaholic]

Your long post is a good appraisal of how last night's debate went, SGR, and there's little doubt that Biden was a fumbling disappointment. One big mistake of his was trying to muster statistics that he couldn't present in a commanding way: I got really bored with his various mumbled numbers. Conversely, with Trump, I got really sick of his glib, evidence-free superlatives about his own time in office, "The best this, the greatest that, etc."

So that appears to be the best recourse message that the Democrats have after that mess of a debate. 'Biden didn't debate well, but he told the truth.' Which isn't true, in the sense that he didn't lie (maybe he lied less than Trump, not sure), but it's worth a shot I guess. 

As far I can tell, it was business as usual regarding the honesty of the candidates: Trump flat-out lying over and over again, Biden ocassionally fudging figures and deliberately using quotes out of context. ( Again, the Charlottesville one, which you have educated me about SGR, )

Here's a fact-check assessment of the debate:-  https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-misinformation-election-debate-trump-biden-577507522762aa10f6ee5be3a0ced2bb

tldr ? This is their liars' list: Trump: 11 lies, Biden: 5.

You wanna see something funny? Listen to Joe Scarborough explain how this version of Biden we have now is the best version of Biden there's ever been. This was from only three months ago.

If a Democrat largely paid attention to clowns like this guy, I'd understand why some of them were so shocked after watching the debate.

Joe Scarborough spoils his own show by talking too much, incl talking over long-suffering co-presenter, Mika. It's a really dated, sexist performance imo. Nonetheless, as used to be said, "a week is a long time in politics" so perhaps it's unfair to ridicule an opinion from 3 months back - especially as Biden seems to have immediately bounced back from his ghastly debate performance. Here are (admittedly edited) highlights of the fiery, confident Joe, so sadly missing from the Presidential debate:-

[SGR]

Your long post is a good appraisal of how last night's debate went, SGR, and there's little doubt that Biden was a fumbling disappointment. One big mistake of his was trying to muster statistics that he couldn't present in a commanding way: I got really bored with his various mumbled numbers. Conversely, with Trump, I got really sick of his glib, evidence-free superlatives about his own time in office, "The best this, the greatest that, etc."

As far I can tell, it was business as usual regarding the honesty of the candidates: Trump flat-out lying over and over again, Biden ocassionally fudging figures and deliberately using quotes out of context. ( Again, the Charlottesville one, which you have educated me about SGR, )

Here's a fact-check assessment of the debate:-  https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-misinformation-election-debate-trump-biden-577507522762aa10f6ee5be3a0ced2bb

tldr ? This is their liars' list: Trump: 11 lies, Biden: 5.

Joe Scarborough spoils his own show by talking too much, incl talking over long-suffering co-presenter, Mika. It's a really dated, sexist performance imo. Nonetheless, as used to be said, "a week is a long time in politics" so perhaps it's unfair to ridicule an opinion from 3 months back - especially as Biden seems to have immediately bounced back from his ghastly debate performance. Here are (admittedly edited) highlights of the fiery, confident Joe, so sadly missing from the Presidential debate:-

Thanks Lisna!

Suprisingly, there's very little here I'd disagree with you on. 

Trump's whole 'greatest this, best that' schtick is sort of on brand with him. Probably 90% of the time, whatever he is talking about is not the 'greatest this' or the 'best that', but he's a salesman in nature.

In terms of lies, yeah, we can agree that both candidates lied. I haven't gone through the transcript or anything myself yet to fact check everything (and I won't, I don't care that much lol), but I'm willing to bet Trump and Biden both lied more times than those AP figures. Here's one article from the Federalist that lists 20 lies Biden told for example (ignore #19, because Biden corrected himself immediately afterwards, in a quote I've already included earlier in this thread - counting this one as a lie is a complete cheap shot):

Here Are The 20 Biggest Whoppers Biden Told During His Debate With Trump

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if the real number of Trump lies is twice as much or even greater.

Agreed that a week is a long time in politics, by election time, perhaps this will be forgotten, especially if Biden has a much better debate performance next time (which is totally possible) but Biden has had many instances like this on less big of a stage, and longer ago than 3 months, so for Joe Scarborough to say something like 'this is the best version of Biden' we've ever had is completely dishonest. He himself must know it's not true. And just knowing it's possible that your president will have days like this (what we saw at the debate) is very, very concerning. It's like the USSR telling its citizens via Pravda that Brezhnev in his later years was perfectly mentally capable. It's just not true. And to be fair, if anyone claimed the version of Trump we have now is the 'best version of Trump' we've ever had mentally and physically, that would be just as untrue. They're both old, and with age comes inevitable decline. Truly, at their ages, they should both be disqualified from being president, but here we are.

To your point from his rally today, I did catch some of that, and I did think it was awfully strange the complete contrast between his rally presence and his debate presence - moreso than could be explained simply by him reading from a teleprompter at the rally. I don't know what kind of medication Joe is on these days, I won't stoop to say they're pumping him with anything crazy, but he's certainly taking some things and surely Trump is too. At their age, it's very possible Biden just had an 'off-night' last night, and it could be due to something as simple as him having a bad night of sleep.

[SGR]

Here we go folks!

Schmoyoho and Weird Al have officially launched the first official remix of the latest presidential debate. Props to these guys - no clue how they get it out so quick. Mind boggling really.

Look forward to the Remix Bros take on it next week.