Global politics

[Jwb]

How about Jews in Melbourne? Does a spike in antisemitic abuse by 738 percent entitle you to seriously consider moving to Israel or are you still deluded if you do?

You would have to break it down for me,  cause I don't know whether Melbourne is safer for Jews than Israel is. A 738 percent spike doesn't quite tell me whether Melbourne is safer than Israel or not. 


If Israel is safer than Melbourne is, then either its really not that dangerous in Israel at all, or it is way more dangerous in Melbourne than I expected.  Which one do you think it is?

[jadis]

The issue is whether you feel safe as a visibly Jewish person or whether you move around in the expectation of harassment that can escalate to violence. The latter has been the soul-destroying reality of Jews in certain parts of France and Belgium (to speak only of the parts of Europe I'm somewhat familiar with, read about and know people who fled them) since the second intifada. It appears that since October 7 this phenomenon has spread elsewhere in the West.

Whatever else is true of Israel, you can be visibly Jewish here.

[Jwb]

t's also ironic that you are citing recent  antisemitic spikes which are presumably based largely on backlash towards Israel as evidence in favor of the view that the existence of Israel makes Jews safer. Js lol

[Jwb]

The issue is whether you feel safe as a visibly Jewish person or whether you move around in the expectation of harassment that can escalate to violence. The latter has been the soul-destroying reality of Jews in certain parts of France and Belgium (to speak only of the parts of Europe I'm somewhat familiar with, read about and know people who fled them) since the second intifada. It appears that since October 7 this phenomenon has spread elsewhere in the West.

Whatever else is true of Israel, you can be visibly Jewish here.

You can be visibly Jewish in America.  Minus the rockets. Plus the AR-15s to defend yourself.

[jadis]

That a people hated for their religion and for their race, for their supposed influence on world affairs and for their marginality, for their economical activity and for their intellectualism, their taste for abstraction and their dangerous sexuality etc etc would also be hated for their state with a burning passion!

You are smart enough to see through a pile of bs as transparent as this if it was on any other issue, but that you don't is the least surprising thing in the world. Some of literally the smartest people in the history of the world had trouble thinking through this one, not just billions of retards.

[Nimbly9]

Just a little food for thought.  Some good points along the lines of what jadis is talking about.

[Jwb]

@jadis

I would be much more likely to be convinced if you tried making an actual argument. So far you really haven't addressed any point I do make, so I don't think you've earned the right to try patronizing me just yet. 

I simply won't be convinced by your pearl clutching over antisemitism. Try a new approach. Maybe one that doesn't grant a state carte Blanche to do whatever they want, shielded by an iron dome of antisemitism accusations.

[jadis]

Yeah I don't feel like trying to convince you of anything.

You seem to regard the insane rise in antisemitism as a natural response to a conflict in a faraway country rather than evidence of a civilizational disease.

I find it's concerning that according to the new Harvard poll two thirds of US Zoomers believe this



But I'm also too familiar with the rhetoric — where Israel is painted as the global summum malum, while concern about antisemitism is viewed as evidence that those concerned are up to something — that brought us here to be surprised by it. I don't think you can combat a hate as deeply ingrained with good arguments and concessions that the state of Israel is far from perfect.   

[jadis]

Just a little food for thought.  Some good points along the lines of what jadis is talking about.

I really liked this one. Bits reminded me of the best article written on the heels of October 7 (and one of the best I've ever read on Israel-Palestine) https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2023/11/ecstasy-and-amnesia-in-the-gaza-strip/

[DJChameleon]

Yeah I don't feel like trying to convince you of anything.

You seem to regard the insane rise in antisemitism as a natural response to a conflict in a faraway country rather than evidence of a civilizational disease.

I find it's concerning that according to the new Harvard poll two thirds of US Zoomers believe this



But I'm also too familiar with the rhetoric — where Israel is painted as the global summum malum, while concern about antisemitism is viewed as evidence that those concerned are up to something — that brought us here to be surprised by it. I don't think you can combat a hate as deeply ingrained with good arguments and concessions that the state of Israel is far from perfect.   

That's such a stupid mis leading poll, they should have said Zionists and not Jews. They are just looking for reasons for people to be antisemitic when most people are just against Zionists in general the ones in power not your average jew off the street.

[jadis]

If there's one thing railing against "Zionists" is known for it's never spilling over into abuse of Jews, eh?

The poll shows both how loosely college students grasp these issues (you are no better), and how fraught all those terms are. When you obsessively demonize the only Jewish state in the world and believe that posters of kidnapped Israeli babies are "Zionist propaganda" I don't see how the barrier between hating imaginary Zionists and harming real Jews doesn't get blown the fuck up. It does, every time.

I always say that we're all Zionists as a way of trying to get the sting out of this word. But it's a quixotic effort when there's a huge weight of accumulated wisdom and mute prejudice weighing down on every single aspect of this topic.

[DJChameleon]

I'm going to walk the fuck out of this conversation because I can already tell by your tone that you are the type of person that equates someone being pro-Palestinian with being pro- Hamas.

Bye have fun in this thread. I'm out.

[Guybrush]

Aside from people getting their brain signals mixed up and confusing the actions of the state of Israel with jewish people in general, why would US Americans not like Jews?

Is it a christian thing?

[jadis]

Supporting the Palestinian cause vs supporting Hamas is like the Jew/Zionist thing: a perfectly viable distinction until shit gets real.

The irony of a Scandinavian asking why would those weird racist Americans not like Jews.

[Guybrush]

The irony of a Scandinavian asking why would those weird racist Americans not like Jews.

Seeing as I'm such a dumb yokel, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain this comment.

Why is it ironic that a Scandinavian would ask about what motivates anti-Semitism in the US?