Big Picture American Politics

[SGR]

I know you're not making the case that trump is better, and I'm also aware your vote is not influential. That's not what I was getting at. I was saying that even as an act of protest, trump is too horrible a person to make voting for him (as an act in itself regardless of outcome) justifiable. The blank vote you did is one of the actually decent forms of protest I had in mind.

I find it mildly amusing that a non-American is trying to convince an American that their protest vote isn't morally justifiable.

If DJ believes that the Democrats need to make changes and improve on foreign policy in a way that makes their administrations' actions more ethical and in line with his moral compass, then voting for their primary opposition (Republicans), in a state that Democrats have no realistic chance of losing (this time around) is much more effective at sending that message than a blank vote, assuming a non-insignificant amount of other disillusioned Democrats/independents did the same.

In terms of affecting the outcome of the election, him voting for Trump will have the same effect as if he had voted for some random scumbag like Harvey Weinstein. But the message is different. You can't vote for an opposition party in a primary (well, sort of, some states let you choose a party ballot, but you're constrained in that party's vote, it's not a collective dual party either/or situation, you choose which party's primary you're voting in), so protesting with a blank vote makes sense there. But it doesn't make sense in a general election. You think the Dems would be worried or make changes in response to a protest vote(s) that tells them: "Well, I won't vote for you in a majority Dem state, but I'm not so upset with you that I'd dare vote for your opposition party"?

If only 5% of Dems in New York switched and voted for Trump in the general, it would send the party a message that they're not obligated a vote just because voters don't like their opposition party. The Dems would do all the exit polling and research after to figure out why they lost those voters and they'd shift approach accordingly next time (and if they didn't, they'd continue to bleed voters). A blank vote in a general doesn't mean anything (excluding downballot votes, which assumedly, wouldn't be blank). In terms of the presidential election, it's like showing up for attendance at school, and then not paying attention to the teacher and doing none of the homework and claiming you're protesting school.

[Marie Monday]

yeah I know all that, I don't care. You're still trying to convince me of the beneficial/lack of harmful outcome of it, when that wasn't ever my point. It's a kind of cynical utilitarism that I can't get behind, the end doesn't justify the means. The blank vote was just one example, there are other more impactful ways to protest too

[DJChameleon]

I know you're not making the case that trump is better, and I'm also aware your vote is not influential. That's not what I was getting at. I was saying that even as an act of protest, trump is too horrible a person to make voting for him (as an act in itself regardless of outcome) justifiable. The blank vote you did is one of the actually decent forms of protest I had in mind.

I can't cast a blank ballot in November because there are other local races that I DO want to participate in and I think there is a proposal or two on the back that I need to vote on. Blank ballots only work for the primary.

[Trollheart]

I would just take issue with the characterisation of Biden as Genocide Joe, and like Marie, would like to make it clear I don't like him - now - either. However, if anyone should be accused of genocide, should this not be Trump? If there's a scale you can put on genocides, is not the genocide of your own people, the people who voted you into power and trusted in and believed you - worse than that of a foreign nation? Not that either are acceptable, but have we already forgotten how Trump wilfully ignored, downplayed and then lied about Covid while Americans were dying in their hundreds of thousands? It was his administration - and him in particular - that was responsible for so many Republican/MAGA voters dying because they refused to believe Covid was real, as he told them it wasn't. They literally trusted in him and it killed them. So surely both men deserve the title, and I would, if you're going to vilify Biden with that epithet, suggest either Terminator Trump or, more likely, Traitor Trump.

[Jwb]

I know you're not making the case that trump is better, and I'm also aware your vote is not influential. That's not what I was getting at. I was saying that even as an act of protest, trump is too horrible a person to make voting for him (as an act in itself regardless of outcome) justifiable. The blank vote you did is one of the actually decent forms of protest I had in mind.

it literally has no impact who you vote for.  Other than the vote tally changes by one vote. The same guy will win either way.

[Marie Monday]

I can't cast a blank ballot in November because there are other local races that I DO want to participate in and I think there is a proposal or two on the back that I need to vote on. Blank ballots only work for the primary.

it literally has no impact who you vote for.  Other than the vote tally changes by one vote. The same guy will win either way.

I swear to god you guys are still trying to explain to me how voting works when I've already said that all this stuff is bedside the point for me

[jimmy jazz]

I would just take issue with the characterisation of Biden as Genocide Joe, and like Marie, would like to make it clear I don't like him - now - either. However, if anyone should be accused of genocide, should this not be Trump?

No.

[Marie Monday]

Accusations of genocide on either side are debatable, but regardless of that there's still the point of why Trump isn't called dictator donnie then, or something, if the nicknames are meant to be calling them out unbiased

[jimmy jazz]

Accusations of genocide on either side are debatable, but regardless of that there's still the point of why Trump isn't called dictator donnie then, or something, if the nicknames are meant to be calling them out unbiased

Who is supposed to be unbiased and who said the nicknames are supposed to be unbiased?

People have been calling Trump orange and all sorts of other shit for years.

This argument 😂

[Marie Monday]

Orange is not remotely the same as genocide mate.
If you're saying it's not manipulation your implying it's unbiased. Since it is biased, it spreads a disproportionately good perception of trump compared to Biden (which is not a coincidence, that's the goal) and is therefore manipulation through political propaganda.

Also I'm not talking about what people in general have been calling them, I'm talking about what I see them being called now, here

[jimmy jazz]

Orange is not remotely the same as genocide mate.

It doesn't have to be. It's still a negative thing and people have called Trump plenty of negative names.

If you're saying it's not manipulation your implying it's unbiased. Since it is biased, it spreads a disproportionately good perception of trump compared to Biden (which is not a coincidence, that's the goal) and is therefore manipulation through political propaganda.

Also I'm not talking about what people in general have been calling them, I'm talking about what I see them being called now, here

I think everyone on this thread has already made their minds up about Trump and Biden and no piss-taking nickname is going to change anybody's perception of either of them.

[jimmy jazz]

Genocide Joe and Deadly Donald

Everyone happy now?

[Psy-Fi]

The "Genocide Joe" nickname has been given to Biden by people on the left, and primarily those who are against what Israel is doing in Gaza with the support of the U.S.

https://www.facebook.com/RollingStone/posts/714096060578463/

Thousands of pro-Palestine demonstrators marched on Washington, D.C., demanding a Gaza ceasefire. They directed their rage primarily at Joe Biden. It started with the chants:

"Biden, Biden, you can't hide! We charge you with genocide!"

"Hey hey! Ho ho! Genocide Joe has got to go!"

And even, at least once, the classic four-syllable refrain familiar to anyone who's been near a Trump rally or right-wing protest in recent years: "Fuck Joe Bi-den!"

[DJChameleon]

Orange is not remotely the same as genocide mate.
If you're saying it's not manipulation your implying it's unbiased. Since it is biased, it spreads a disproportionately good perception of trump compared to Biden (which is not a coincidence, that's the goal) and is therefore manipulation through political propaganda.

Also I'm not talking about what people in general have been calling them, I'm talking about what I see them being called now, here

This is all semantics at this point, Psy's post explains the origin of the nickname Genocide Joe. It's basically people on the left that are so fed up with his unwavering support of Israel. There are plenty of other members of congress catching flack for having the same position as well. The only difference is that they don't have catchy nicknames but they are still getting pressured. Their defense is that if you don't support Israel then you are antisemitic and pro Hamas which is wildly incorrect misinformation.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

This is all semantics at this point, Psy's post explains the origin of the nickname Genocide Joe. It's basically people on the left that are so fed up with his unwavering support of Israel. There are plenty of other members of congress catching flack for having the same position as well. The only difference is that they don't have catchy nicknames but they are still getting pressured. Their defense is that if you don't support Israel then you are antisemitic and pro Hamas which is wildly incorrect misinformation.

Yeah, that is true. And by my own morals I would never voice support for Biden and his pro-genocide actions either. But this is not happening in a vacuum. The strategy of "withholding votes to pressure Biden into stopping supporting Israel" is a pretty huge gamble that I think in the long run has only served to harm Biden's chances of winning period.