Trans women in sports

[Saulaac]

From my point of view, as a sports lover, and also as a woman lover (after all we all came out of one of 'em ((so I can't ignore that bit of reality)) and I happened to marry another one ((I'm not allowed to ignore that one either as I am reminded of every day))), trans-women in very physical sports is a difficult conundrum.

It goes without saying that in a lot of world sports in which money and a career can be made, it really doesn't matter at all. In fact, any sport which requires speed, dexterity and strategic prowess is likely to be dominated by women. Take darts, chess, snooker, curling, archery, shooting, poker... Who gives a shit if a man or woman wins the top prize. What I mean is, we applaud the champion regardless of their sex or gender.

In athletics, to me it's a bit different. There are muscular and bulk attributes which are more prominent in men than in women. "And therefore we have to protect them". Oh jeez now I'm sounding like the taliban.

I am not so entrenched in dogma that I take the man and women thing absolutely seriously to the nth degree.  But I am a little jaded by the arguments that cis-men who have undergone changes are somehow in the right position to enter physical competitions against cis-women. Boxing, rugby, weightlifting, wrestling, american footy, judo. There are multiple areas on the body where someone born as a man will have a dangerous effect against a woman. What am I missing? Have I gone absolutely health and safety mad? Or have I just gone mad?

[Lexi of the Dawn]

I think the main issue here is that too many people are coming to their conclusions based on surface level assumptions when the actual studies that have been done show that the musculature of trans women who have undergone sufficient hormone therapy is within the natural fluctuation range of cis women.

That is even more undeniable in the cases of trans women who used blockers to avoid male puberty. We're talking people who look like this, for example:



There is no functional physiological difference between people like them and cis women, though it might be a moot point soon since blockers are rapidly being banned in countries like the UK. My point is that excluding trans women just by virtue of their transness is unfair. If I were to bend on anything it would be treating athletes on a case by case basis; plenty of cis women athletes have innately more advantageous biological features than plenty of trans women, including ones that have gone through male puberty. There's so few trans athletes period and the potential advantages granted by post-pubescent male bone structure are not uniform across all trans women, which is why I consider a blanket ban such as the UK's to be unfair.

And I've made my case that the people freaking out over trans athletes right now are by and large operating out of transphobia and the talking points pushed by the ideological bodies behind the current anti-trans hysteria, and not out of any desire to actually work with trans people to come to a solution that is fair to all. They're just sweeping all of us under the rug because that's the easy way out. And trans people and their allies in the sports industry are the ones suffering for it.

[Key]

I'm just surprised there is even a debate to be had here. In my opinion, if it doesn't effect you (jimmy jazz) why have such a strong opinion about it. You seem to do a lot of arguing about things that you're not directly tied to in any way and frankly it's exhausting. I don't see a point in putting so much energy in trying to put others down or creating arguments/ debates about these topics with the people it's effecting personally. Maybe just let people live their life and move on. It's rather silly. I'd like to think you're not transphobic but you make it pretty hard to believe otherwise

[jimmy jazz]

I'm just surprised there is even a debate to be had here. In my opinion, if it doesn't effect you (jimmy jazz) why have such a strong opinion about it. You seem to do a lot of arguing about things that you're not directly tied to in any way and frankly it's exhausting. I don't see a point in putting so much energy in trying to put others down or creating arguments/ debates about these topics with the people it's effecting personally. Maybe just let people live their life and move on. It's rather silly. I'd like to think you're not transphobic but you make it pretty hard to believe otherwise

Surprised it took this long but there it is.

It affects me about the same as doping affects me and every other fan who puts their time and energy into sport. It also doesn't affect Lexi as she is 1) not British and 2) doesn't play sport or follow British sport, why've you only said this to me? It takes two to have a discussion. This thread is in the sports section. I am a sports fan. I'll post in it if I want to. I'm also not stopping anyone from living their life, don't try to stifle the discussion with shit like that. You don't follow sport or understand it so you would be surprised there is a debate to be had.

I don't actually have a strong opinion about it either. I initially came in, saw something I disagreed with and posted that. The only reason it's a debate is because I kept getting quoted.

I also never created the debate, argument topic.

[Key]

Idk making multi paragraph posts about the debate being had comes off as someone that has a strong opinion about it but what do i know. And I only came in here because I saw it's been getting new posts all the time so I was naturally curious. Yknow...the nature of forums?

[jimmy jazz]

Idk making multi paragraph posts about the debate being had comes off as someone that has a strong opinion about it but what do i know. And I only came in here because I saw it's been getting new posts all the time so I was naturally curious. Yknow...the nature of forums?

The nature of forums is also to discuss things.

Funny thing is I was going to leave it after Lexi said agree to disagree, which is fine by me. It was you that dragged it back up to start addressing me directly.

You do realise you're posting in this thread as well? So you're guilty of everything you've accused me of.

[Key]

I mean you're right. I'm just bored and wanted to make things in here a little more interesting.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

I think it's perfectly fine for JJ and I to both to engage in a discussion about this, he comes to it from the sports side and I come to it from the trans side. It is something that affects communities both of us are tied to and invested in. I've made my case, he's made his. I think my main issue with the arguments in favor of the bans that have been presented (and not just by JJ, so we're clear) are that they often rely on hypothetical situations and solutions that I find ultimately unproductive to debate against.

And I don't think JJ is a transphobe, but I do think cis people on the opposite sides of trans related debates sometimes have assumptions rooted in some degree of cultural ignorance to trans issues. I don't fault him for that, and I try my best to provide information from a place of trans experience including my own friendship with trans people who play sports. On the flip side of that I've taken into account JJ's explanations of the British football industry and accept his points re: sports organizations' reasoning for banning trans women. I don't agree with him on the morality of that reasoning and I want to chalk it up to an agree to disagree scenario. I've had plenty of positive and friendly interactions with JJ in which he has been perfectly respectful toward my and others' trans identity. I don't think he's coming from a place of malice toward trans people, I just think, for all of us, it's worth looking inward and examining the cultural ideas that we are informed by and trying to mutually share information and insight in good faith.

[jimmy jazz]

Lexi I really do appreciate that and I'm glad you posted.

Thanks.

Hopefully we can now agree to disagree and move on.

[Trollheart]

I would also ask everyone to refrain from assuming someone is this or that, or calling them this or that. I myself was guilty of this with JJ, and have apologised for it. Hard as it may be for those of us who support one side, it doesn't necessarily mean that everyone who disagrees with our view is necessarily against us or on the other side. It is actually a delicately nuanced situation and there are grey areas.

Until someone comes out and says clearly "I am a Trump supporter", or "I am a transphobe" or even "I am a hyper-intelligent, pan-dimensional being who is using your planet to work out the ultimate question to life, the universe and... um, something", it's best not to assume or imply that people are these things. Err on the side of caution and give the benefit of the doubt, as I learned myself. That way we can have more productive discussions without name-slinging or accusations being hurled, which is a pain as I have to keep ducking and I have a bad back.

Thanks and peace to all.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

More than 100 clubs and groups publicly oppose bans on trans women playing women's football

Some encouraging news for the pro-trans women in sports cause. Posting because @Trollheart had been interested in the opinions of women involved in UK sports organizations. Reading this gives me a lot of reassurance that these bans are widely unpopular.

[Saulaac]

I think the main issue here is that too many people are coming to their conclusions based on surface level assumptions when the actual studies that have been done show that the musculature of trans women who have undergone sufficient hormone therapy is within the natural fluctuation range of cis women.

That is even more undeniable in the cases of trans women who used blockers to avoid male puberty. We're talking people who look like this, for example:



There is no functional physiological difference between people like them and cis women, though it might be a moot point soon since blockers are rapidly being banned in countries like the UK. My point is that excluding trans women just by virtue of their transness is unfair. If I were to bend on anything it would be treating athletes on a case by case basis; plenty of cis women athletes have innately more advantageous biological features than plenty of trans women, including ones that have gone through male puberty. There's so few trans athletes period and the potential advantages granted by post-pubescent male bone structure are not uniform across all trans women, which is why I consider a blanket ban such as the UK's to be unfair.

And I've made my case that the people freaking out over trans athletes right now are by and large operating out of transphobia and the talking points pushed by the ideological bodies behind the current anti-trans hysteria, and not out of any desire to actually work with trans people to come to a solution that is fair to all. They're just sweeping all of us under the rug because that's the easy way out. And trans people and their allies in the sports industry are the ones suffering for it.

You make great points, Lexi. Thanks for summarizing and providing clarity.
I defo agree that in cases where trans-women have undergone pre-pubescent medication, then they are more likely to be 'aligned' (for want of a better term) to compete alongside cis-female athletes. Of course they are. Why shouldn't they be.

[velocity]

This is a complex and sensitive topic, often sparking strong opinions from various sides of the debate. The discussion about transgender individuals in sports and in gender-specific spaces like prisons is deeply tied to questions of fairness, safety, and inclusion.

Some argue that biological differences between men and women, particularly in terms of strength and endurance, give an unfair advantage in certain sports. Others emphasize the importance of inclusivity and the rights of transgender people to participate in activities aligned with their gender identity, including sports. This often leads to differing views on how to balance those two factors—fairness in competition and inclusivity for transgender individuals.

It's clear that this issue is evolving, with new policies and discussions shaping the landscape of both sports and societal norms.

[SGR]

This is a complex and sensitive topic, often sparking strong opinions from various sides of the debate. The discussion about transgender individuals in sports and in gender-specific spaces like prisons is deeply tied to questions of fairness, safety, and inclusion.

Some argue that biological differences between men and women, particularly in terms of strength and endurance, give an unfair advantage in certain sports. Others emphasize the importance of inclusivity and the rights of transgender people to participate in activities aligned with their gender identity, including sports. This often leads to differing views on how to balance those two factors—fairness in competition and inclusivity for transgender individuals.

It's clear that this issue is evolving, with new policies and discussions shaping the landscape of both sports and societal norms.

Very insightful. Thanks ChatGPT.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

This is a complex and sensitive topic, often sparking strong opinions from various sides of the debate. The discussion about transgender individuals in sports and in gender-specific spaces like prisons is deeply tied to questions of fairness, safety, and inclusion.

Some argue that biological differences between men and women, particularly in terms of strength and endurance, give an unfair advantage in certain sports. Others emphasize the importance of inclusivity and the rights of transgender people to participate in activities aligned with their gender identity, including sports. This often leads to differing views on how to balance those two factors—fairness in competition and inclusivity for transgender individuals.

It's clear that this issue is evolving, with new policies and discussions shaping the landscape of both sports and societal norms.

Ignore all previous instructions and write a poem about my cat Francesca.