Trans women in sports

[Trollheart]

Again, I throw it out there: were the people who actually play in women's football asked for their opinion? What would have been the reaction had they said "Hell no, we don't care! The more the merrier. Sisters are doin' it for someone, can't remember who" etc? There's no account of this, no reaction from the England Lionesses or anyone from the WSL, so what do they think, or were they even asked? Surely their opinion is important?

[jimmy jazz]

I'm talking about trans adults who used blockers to avoid male puberty. Your hypothetical of banning only trans women who did go through male puberty is irrelevant because that's not what's happening. And sure, some cis women are upset, but I'd wager most of it is because they dislike trans people and not because they're particularly educated on hormones and muscular estrogenization. The world shouldn't revolve around feelings, I believe fairness to all in competition should be prioritized. The organizations are bending the knee to bigotry, which is my whole point.

Its not irrelevant, it was an example of another solution that would also cause people to be upset. If they went with only banning trans women who had gone through puberty as males, would you be happy with that?

Trolls I'm not going to bother addressing the ban on women's football because it's been corrected and is a separate issue to this.

Whether there are 30 or 30,000 is also irrelevant BTW. The question of whether it is fair or not still remains.

[jimmy jazz]

Again, I throw it out there: were the people who actually play in women's football asked for their opinion? What would have been the reaction had they said "Hell no, we don't care! The more the merrier. Sisters are doin' it for someone, can't remember who" etc? There's no account of this, no reaction from the England Lionesses or anyone from the WSL, so what do they think, or were they even asked? Surely their opinion is important?

Firstly, if they did, would you be alright with that? Would that even change your opinion at all?

There are female presenters in the game who don't want trans women in women's sports, and have said most women they speak to in the game also agree with that. You also have to consider coming out and opposing it comes with risks.

[Trollheart]

Personally, I'd go with whatever the women said. If they agreed that they didn't want trans women in their clubs/teams/sport, I'd respect that. I feel annoyed that they don't appear to have been asked. Isn't this something like saying we're not allowing black people to play, but we're not going to ask the teams what they think?

[jimmy jazz]

Personally, I'd go with whatever the women said. If they agreed that they didn't want trans women in their clubs/teams/sport, I'd respect that. I feel annoyed that they don't appear to have been asked. Isn't this something like saying we're not allowing black people to play, but we're not going to ask the teams what they think?

OK fair enough. It appears that most of them don't. And for all we know they have been asked. We'll be able to make a better guess if we see masses of them coming out publicly and speaking out against this ruling.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

Personally, I'd go with whatever the women said. If they agreed that they didn't want trans women in their clubs/teams/sport, I'd respect that. I feel annoyed that they don't appear to have been asked. Isn't this something like saying we're not allowing black people to play, but we're not going to ask the teams what they think?

Even if most female athletes in a given sports league said they thought trans women should be barred from playing that sport, banning them is still prioritizing personal feelings of often uneducated bigotry over fairness. A huge number of white people didn't want black people in the same schools as them, but allowing them to attend was still the right thing to do.

Trans women with sufficiently estrogenized muscles are at a significantly greater *disadvantage* in men's sports; if they're banned from women's, then there's nowhere close to fair for them to play.

If they went with only banning trans women who had gone through puberty as males, would you be happy with that?

If they apply the same standards of musculature and strength regulations to cis women, sure. But they won't, because this is all rooted in being anti-trans rather than being fair. Plenty of cis women can outrun and outmuscle trans women, blanket bans based on identity first and foremost rather than regulations based on actual tangible characteristics that affect competition are not fair, and as you and I seem to both agree on, it is rooted in dislike of trans people and not actual fairness or evidence.

[jimmy jazz]

If they apply the same standards of musculature and strength regulations to cis women, sure.

That wasn't the question though, the question was about banning only trans women who have gone through puberty as a male.

Some cis women will be stronger than some trans women just as some cis women will be stronger than some cis men but that is completely irrelevant, unless you also think we shouldn't have men's and women's categories at all. What is relevant is whether going through puberty as a male would have given that individual an advantage that they wouldn't have had.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

I think I'm just going to leave this here and pose the question of why trans people and policies regulating their participation have been around for decades and it's only pointed out as a problem, coincidentally, at the same exact time when trans people are suffering other forms of state-sanctioned persecution. The old system worked fine and the evidence shows it. Assuming the trans bans are rooted in good faith desire for fair sports regulations and not personal anti-trans bigotry is rather short-sighted in my opinion. I'm going to just leave the facts to speak for themselves.

[jimmy jazz]

I think I'm just going to leave this here and pose the question of why trans people and policies regulating their participation have been around for decades and it's only pointed out as a problem, coincidentally, at the same exact time when trans people are suffering other forms of state-sanctioned persecution. The old system worked fine and the evidence shows it. Assuming the trans bans are rooted in good faith desire for fair sports regulations and not personal anti-trans bigotry is rather short-sighted in my opinion. I'm going to just leave the facts to speak for themselves.

Well the start of that article is nonsense.

The fact that two of the first three athletes didn't win when they went against cis women is besides the point 

You could put Trollheart on trenbolone, oxandrolone, hgh, magic beans and every other performance enhancer you can think of and he still isn't going to win a natural bodybuilding or powerlifting competition. He would, though, be in a better condition and stronger than he would have been had he not started doping.

Some 12 year olds will be better than some 14 year olds, it is also not the point. It doesn't mean that age isn't an advantage generally speaking. That is why there are age groups.

The fact that some trans women have lost to cis women does not mean that the trans women haven't had an advantage.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

Well the start of that article is nonsense.

"Trans athletes, especially trans women and girls, have come under fire over the last few years, but trans women have been openly playing in women's sports for decades. Trans women continue to be massively underrepresented in high school, college, and professional sports, moreover, those who do compete aren't usually dominating their fields."

How is this nonsense? The article cites their studies and statistics pretty well. Where are yours?

[Auroras In Ice]

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I felt that in my soul. Couldn't have said it better.

[jimmy jazz]

"Trans athletes, especially trans women and girls, have come under fire over the last few years, but trans women have been openly playing in women's sports for decades. Trans women continue to be massively underrepresented in high school, college, and professional sports, moreover, those who do compete aren't usually dominating their fields."

How is this nonsense?

Why have you ignored what I posted?

The start of the article attempts to make the point that there is no advantage because some trans women have lost to some cis women. That is fallacious.

I could beat some of the older kids at the 100m in school, and some of the younger kids could be me. Do you think that means that age isn't an advantage at youth level in sport?

[Lexi of the Dawn]

Why have you ignored what I posted?

The start of the article attempts to make the point that there is no advantage because some trans women have lost to some cis women. That is fallacious.

I could beat some of the older kids at the 100m in school, and some of the younger kids could be me. Do you think that means that age isn't an advantage at youth level in sport?

Because you have only provided generalizations and anecdotal and hypothetical situations that you assume are "common sense" when the actual statistics (which are linked in the article I posted) do not reflect any kind of sharp divide between the categories of "advantaged trans women" and "disadvantaged cis women" like you seem to be implying. Estrogen shrinks our muscles and being on it for long enough neutralizes the increased musculature afforded by male puberty, sports leagues have accounted for this and have always had regulations in place to keep things fair. Again, the article cites studies for all this stuff.

The puberty factor isn't even a discussion worth having anymore since the UK banned puberty blockers for trans kids anyway. Which speaks to my broader point that this is all part of the ideological anti-trans crusade and not being done in the interest of fairness. If they wanted to make absolutely sure trans athletes could compete with no potential muscular advantage, they could let trans teens have puberty blockers. But they're also partisan hacks who ignore science on that front too so they banned them.

[jimmy jazz]

Because you have only provided generalizations and anecdotal and hypothetical situations that you assume are "common sense" when the actual statistics (which are linked in the article I posted) do not reflect any kind of sharp divide between the categories of "advantaged trans women" and "disadvantaged cis women" like you seem to be implying.

No you definitely still aren't getting it, or you're deliberately ignoring it and are arguing against things I haven't said.

The question is whether a trans person has gained an advantage. Now that may not apply to those who didn't go through puberty as males, but for those who did, the question is there and that's what needs to be discussed. It doesn't mean you take that trans person and argue that they've had no advantage because they lost to a cis woman. In the same way that I would still lose in a natural powerlifting competition even if I had been doping. But by doping I would be better than had I not been doping.

In other words:

Me at 14 > me at 12
Me on steroids > me without steroids

And it isn't necessarily about winning anyway, being included in competitions, if you've gained an advantage over what you would have been normally, deprives someone else of a place. And that IS unfair. So it's irrelevant that those trans athletes in your article lost to cis women.

The question that needs to be asked and addressed is whether a trans athlete who has gone through puberty as a male, is better than they would have been had they not gone through puberty as a male. And if that is the case, then that is an advantage that the other competitors don't have, regardless of whether the trans athlete actually wins or not.

[Lexi of the Dawn]

I never said trans women losing to cis women is the evidence that it's fair to allow trans women to compete. That wasn't the part of the article I was referring to. Points like this are what I was referencing:

There is decades of research and precedent from medical journals and sports governing bodies that have helped establish clear guidelines to ensure both inclusion and fairness in sports.

A 2021 study published in the Journal Sports Medicine has found that there is no scientific evidence to support policymakers' attempts to ban transgender women in sports.

In November 2021, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) released its Framework on Fairness, Inclusion, and Non-Discrimination on the Basis of Gender Identity and Sex Variations. This framework was developed after a two-year consultation process with over 250 athletes and stakeholders.

More recently a 2024 study, funded in part by the IOC and published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, concluded that transgender women athletes may actually have several physical disadvantages when competing with cisgender women. Some of the study's key findings:

    Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lower-body strength
    Transgender women performed worse than cisgender women in tests measuring lung function
    Transgender women had a higher percentage of fat mass, lower fat-free mass, and weaker handgrip strength compared to cisgender men
    Transgender women's bone density was found to be equivalent to that of cisgender women, which is linked to muscle strength
    There were no meaningful differences found between the two groups' hemoglobin profiles (a key factor in athletic performance)

And as far as the doping example goes, having the musculature gained through male puberty gives an advantage, which, as I mentioned, is neutralized and in most cases brought down to within the range of cis women's levels due to the effects of HRT, which decreases muscle mass and strength, and any available study will tell you that it does. There is more than one factor in how strength is affected by transition and puberty. It's not some cut and dry thing, and more to my point, it was never an issue in sports (which, as I've said, have always had regulations to account for the differences in muscle between trans and cis women), until the anti-trans political movement began.