Controversial music opinions

[SGR]

Yeh Machine Gun Kelly. Have a listen to it when you can. It's called Rap Devil.

As for Nas vs Jay, Ether was better imo.

I'll take a listen - what was Em's diss track?

As for Nas v Jay, why do you think Ether was better? To me, Takeover had a much better beat and better lyrics - and Jay even made room in his verses to diss Mobb Deep/Prodigy too. The two for one rap diss special.

[jimmy jazz]

I'll take a listen - what was Em's diss track?

As for Nas v Jay, why do you think Ether was better? To me, Takeover had a much better beat and better lyrics - and Jay even made room in his verses to diss Mobb Deep/Prodigy too. The two for one rap diss special.

Em's was called Killshot.

I don't really care about the beats, I'll admit Takeover was much better in that regard. The lyric you quoted is fair but 1 hot album was still more than what Jay had. The bars on Ether were very childish in places but he said a lot of other stuff that was funny too. Jay Z is actually ugly and looks like a camel. And there is something a bit sad about a 36 year old gangsta rapper in a karate class. Eminem did have the better verses on Renegade. And he did pinch Jaz-O's name. And KRS album name. And so on.

EDIT: Takeover did reignite Nas's career though so thanks for that Jay 👍

[jimmy jazz]

BTW Nas has confirmed himself as the best ever with these last five albums or so.

[tristan_geoff]

Jazz is good actually

[jimmy jazz]

This is one of the greatest Christmas songs ever. Apparently it was massive until the last 90s when it was scrubbed from the history books and never played on radio again. I understand why, as he's such an evil bastard, but this song is still a great song.

[Guybrush]

Not a controversial opinion, but our daughter loves Michael Jackson. It's understandable. A lot of great songs. For obvious reasons (she's a child), we didn't tell her about MJ's more unsavoury, diddley ways..

But I've been telling her about things at bedtime, typically animals like flatworms or barrel eyed fish, but those topics have kinda been exhausted. So I suggested she hears about some popular artists. I wanted to talk about The Beatles or Kate Bush or whatever, but she was adamant she wanted to learn about MJ. I warned her. There are things you might think very differently about afterwards. But she insisted.

So I had to tell her about his tough upbringing, his success and how he did some illegal things with young boys and is now a controversial figure.

I always try to give an honest answer 🤷

It was fun to hear her afterwards telling a visiting friend about how MJ lived on an amazing farm where only little boys were allowed to visit.

[jimmy jazz]

That was me when I was a kid. I was 4 when he got arrested for the first time.

Then when he did the documentary with Martin Bashir I was about 14 and when he said he was sleeping in bed with little boys and I saw the shitfest that followed it didn't need any explaining.

I'd already grown out of his music by then so had no issue not listening to it any more.

[Guybrush]

Yes, I saw Leaving Neverland which is pretty damning, but also seems to leave out some of the darker details.. although it was clear he liked to jerk off while looking at boys' buttholes.

I also saw the interviews with a former maid who said she used to find boxes of vaseline around the estate as that seems to have been his preferred lubricant 🤔

[Lisnaholic]

^ Before that documentary, there were a lot of rumours about Neverland: the extravagance of the place, the pet monkey and stuff like that, so I watched the doc out of curiosity, and a chance to see some of that extraordinary moonwalking that MJ used to do. At the moment of the famous exchange with Bashir, I remember thinking, "That's a dangerous thing for MJ to say! Why is Bashir still acting normal? And why have they put this incriminating clip into film the whole world can watch?!"
____________________________________________________________

Jazz is good actually

^ Not so very controversial, tristan, although it does contradict John Lennon's famous quote on the topic:-

"Jazz," he said, "is just a lot of old blokes drinking beer at the bar, smoking pipes and not listening to the music."

I imagine from his complaint that he was thinking of some dreary English pub, with perhaps a trad jazz band playing, or some piped jazz muzak, like you might get today in a supermarket. One thing I'm sure of: The Beatles never let any jazz influences creep into their music.

[jimmy jazz]

From what I remember that was all over the newspapers before the documentary aired and was why it got such a large amount of people watching. Obviously people would watch anyway but we knew there were going to be shocking admissions in it about sleeping with kids. I reckon MJ was taking the hiding in plain sight approach ala Savile.

I have actually heard people say if he had things to hide why was he openly admitting to sleeping with kids.

How many people accused him in the end? At least 4?

[SGR]

Em's was called Killshot.

I don't really care about the beats, I'll admit Takeover was much better in that regard. The lyric you quoted is fair but 1 hot album was still more than what Jay had. The bars on Ether were very childish in places but he said a lot of other stuff that was funny too. Jay Z is actually ugly and looks like a camel. And there is something a bit sad about a 36 year old gangsta rapper in a karate class. Eminem did have the better verses on Renegade. And he did pinch Jaz-O's name. And KRS album name. And so on.

EDIT: Takeover did reignite Nas's career though so thanks for that Jay 👍

I forgot to respond to this, oops.

1 hot album is 'still more than Jay had'? Totally disagree. If Illmatic is a 10/10 (which I personally don't think it is, but that seems to be the canonical opinion), then Jay's debut, Reasonable Doubt, is a 9 or 9.5/10. Have you listened to it? If not, you're missing out.

By the time "Ether" came out, Jay had, being critical, at least 3 'hot' albums (Reasonable Doubt, Vol. 1, Blueprint)

Nas had some solid digs, but I don't think Jay is particularly ugly - and Jay is not a gangsta rapper. His early stuff is more mafioso/hustler rap, but it's definitely not gangsta rap. Maybe Em did have a better performance on Renegade, but that track was originally a Royce Da 5'9'' song featuring Eminem. Royce eventually got replaced by Jay. (Not that it's relevant, but I think Royce is a perpetually underrated rapper, and his Death Is Certain album is a classic to me)

[Janszoon]

I have never been able to get into Reasonable Doubt or any other Jay-Z album I've listened to. I love Illmatic though.

[SGR]

Yes, I saw Leaving Neverland which is pretty damning, but also seems to leave out some of the darker details.. although it was clear he liked to jerk off while looking at boys' buttholes.

I also saw the interviews with a former maid who said she used to find boxes of vaseline around the estate as that seems to have been his preferred lubricant 🤔

Have you ever seen Square One which defends MJ (from at least some) of these allegations? (I believe there's another documentary that defends MJ, don't remember the name though).

I think the case of Michael Jackson's sexual abuse is a perfect example of what I'll call the 'Documentary Effect'. In many documentaries, they're (subtly or not) trying to persuade you to a certain point of view by the things they present and the way they present them - with investigate documentaries like this, do you think that one that's making the case that MJ is guilty will leave out certain exculpatory evidence and facts? You betcha. On the other side, do you think that one that is making the case that he's innocent will leave out certain incriminating evidence and facts? Absolutley. Documentaries are, by their nature, persuasive - because if they weren't, people wouldn't watch them, and they wouldn't be profitable to make.

So with MJ, you could watch Leaving Neverland and you'll come away from it thinking he's guilty as sin. But you could watch Square One and come away from it thinking he's innocent and has been unfairly accused. Documentaries are entertaining, no doubt, but I try to keep this 'Documentary Effect' in mind when I watch them, and not let them be a substitute for reasearching something myself and coming to my own conclusion (which of course, I'm not accusing you of doing specifically, just speaking in a general sense here - personally, it's been a long time since I've delved into the Michael Jackson case, so I don't have firm conclusions myself one way or the other).

[SGR]

That was me when I was a kid. I was 4 when he got arrested for the first time.

Damn, you were born in '99? For some reason, I thought you were older. 

[jimmy jazz]

Damn, you were born in '99? For some reason, I thought you were older. 

First time he got arrested was 1993 

2003 was the documentary and then the second allegations.

And have you listened to the Eminem vs MGK tunes yet?