The news thread

[DJChameleon]

Cite a better source then

You guys should know the story better than me when I'm across the pond
 and it's right in your backyard. Yet you choose to listen to Skynews that has been twisted the story to make them victims once again.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/8/israeli-football-fans-clash-with-protesters-in-amsterdam

[jimmy jazz]

Al Jazeera, good source.

What's your next objective source going to be? The Palestine Post? The Daily Hamas?

This 'always the victims' thing is a bit concerning BTW.

[Trollheart]

Yeah it confuses me too. I mean, do you not remember the small matter of six million Jews being murdered by Nazi Germany? They certainly were victims, and there was no justification for that. Now, I admit Netanyahu and his bunch of war-mongerers, child-killers and ignorers of safe zones (hospitals, churches, schools, makes no difference it seems - even UN posts are fair game) are scum and deserve no sympathy or support, but that doesn't mean we can go taking out our anger by proxy on every Israeli, under the guise of "you started it" or "he who sows the seeds reaps the harvest" or whatever mad justification you want to put on it. Don't you realise/agree that violence begets violence and it's a pointless vicious circle that leads nowhere? How can you condone such behaviour? I don't get it, I really don't.

[jimmy jazz]

That's why the 'victims' thing when we're talking about Jews makes me suspicious. I've seen genuine neo-Nazis using language like that and referring to the Holocaust. Not saying DJ meant it that way, but it's definitely a thing that gets said and has a hint of Holocaust denial behind it.

[DJChameleon]

Yeah it confuses me too. I mean, do you not remember the small matter of six million Jews being murdered by Nazi Germany? They certainly were victims, and there was no justification for that. Now, I admit Netanyahu and his bunch of war-mongerers, child-killers and ignorers of safe zones (hospitals, churches, schools, makes no difference it seems - even UN posts are fair game) are scum and deserve no sympathy or support, but that doesn't mean we can go taking out our anger by proxy on every Israeli, under the guise of "you started it" or "he who sows the seeds reaps the harvest" or whatever mad justification you want to put on it. Don't you realise/agree that violence begets violence and it's a pointless vicious circle that leads nowhere? How can you condone such behaviour? I don't get it, I really don't.

You are essentially saying because the Holocaust happened that Israelis can go around committing violence unchecked. They beat up an Arab taxi driver, ripped down flags and chanted about how there are no schools because IDF bombed them. Mocking the deaths of children that have died.

[Marie Monday]

You guys should know the story better than me when I'm across the pond
 and it's right in your backyard. Yet you choose to listen to Skynews that has been twisted the story to make them victims once again.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/8/israeli-football-fans-clash-with-protesters-in-amsterdam

lmao where on earth did you get the idea that I listen to skynews

The fact that the whole middle east conflict is essentially an eye for an eye is exactly the reason why this is an issue, and people should rise above it.
Also, of course Israel is far from an innocent victim in the conflict, but I see a general trend towards the opposite where people act as if the Palestinians are, which is also untrue. The Israelis (and jews worldwide for that matter) would be wiped out in a heartbeat if the countries around them got the chance, and that has always been the case. Violence against jews is increasing and the escalation of the conflict is just an excuse for that: jewish communities are always on thin ice and have been since ancient times, and as soon as protection due to public opinion or whatever falls away, this happens. It's important to be aware of that and it should absolutely inform the way we look at incidents like this; that doesn't mean claiming they're just innocent victims or condoning what Israel does.

[Saulaac]

Ever since I remember David Cameron standing on some steps probably about 15 years ago and saying that Britain is still a judeo-christian culture, I have tried to assimilate to that and live accordingly. That means working hard with many different peoples and going out at the weekend to enjoy a curry, chinese, fish 'n chips or whatever. I mean, 99.999% of people do it without even thinking about it.
What bothers me is when normal people somehow descend into chavvy behaviour. For example, why the hell did the Tel Aviv fans think it was appropriate to start causing chaos around the place. Chavs if you ask me. Were they led on or encouraged by some group behaviour, or their own internal chaviness?

I once read "Undercover" by Rob Evans and Paul Lewis at an airport which describes how secret police will ilfiltrate protest marches to sow discord and increase the general chaos in an otherwise quite peaceful protest. Fuck knows what the police should be doing on the protestors' side of the fence.

[Trollheart]

You are essentially saying because the Holocaust happened that Israelis can go around committing violence unchecked. They beat up an Arab taxi driver, ripped down flags and chanted about how there are no schools because IDF bombed them. Mocking the deaths of children that have died.

Evicting DJ from my mouth, and asking him to take his words with him...
When did I say that? You said "Jews always seeing themselves as victims" was an acceptable excuse, whereas I said that Jews have been victims, all down through history, with the most obvious and recent example being WW 2. I didn't say it gave them the right to act violently, but neither does it give others the right to attack them, using this pretext. I think the two things are very different. I've already said I think NetanGoogle and his cabinet are like abused children who have become the abusers, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go into the middle of a group of protesting Jews (or Palestinians) and egg them on or fight them. Violence is violence, and should never be condoned unless it is entirely unavoidable, i.e., self defence or helping someone against whom the odds are stacked unfairly etc.

[DJChameleon]

Evicting DJ from my mouth, and asking him to take his words with him...
When did I say that? You said "Jews always seeing themselves as victims" was an acceptable excuse, whereas I said that Jews have been victims, all down through history, with the most obvious and recent example being WW 2. I didn't say it gave them the right to act violently, but neither does it give others the right to attack them, using this pretext. I think the two things are very different. I've already said I think NetanGoogle and his cabinet are like abused children who have become the abusers, but that doesn't mean I'm going to go into the middle of a group of protesting Jews (or Palestinians) and egg them on or fight them. Violence is violence, and should never be condoned unless it is entirely unavoidable, i.e., self defence or helping someone against whom the odds are stacked unfairly etc.

I'm referring to this story specifically and what occurred. Over the course of the past year traditional media has a very distinct pro Isreal stance where they highlight attacks against Jews and gloss over any stories where Palestinians are attacked. They only care about anti semitism and not those that are carrying out attacks that are anti Muslim.

In this specific case/story they fucked around and found out. It was warranted imo. That doesnt mean I condone unprovoked attacks against Jews or general anti Semitic attacks.

We will just have to agree to disagree because I'm not a pacifist like you and the others.

[DJChameleon]

I once read "Undercover" by Rob Evans and Paul Lewis at an airport which describes how secret police will ilfiltrate protest marches to sow discord and increase the general chaos in an otherwise quite peaceful protest. Fuck knows what the police should be doing on the protestors' side of the fence.

This happens often known as cointelpro.

It happened a lot during the BLM protests that were peaceful for the most part until a rogue agent or two disguised as a protester decides to ramp up the chaos of the situation.

Also in this story with the hooligans, the police didn't care and would just drive by while the chavs were going around pulling flags down and chanting.

[Marie Monday]

I'm referring to this story specifically and what occurred. Over the course of the past year traditional media has a very distinct pro Isreal stance where they highlight attacks against Jews and gloss over any stories where Palestinians are attacked. They only care about anti semitism and not those that are carrying out attacks that are anti Muslim.

In this specific case/story they fucked around and found out. It was warranted imo. That doesnt mean I condone unprovoked attacks against Jews or general anti Semitic attacks.

We will just have to agree to disagree because I'm not a pacifist like you and the others.

the problem, apart from the fact that violence in retaliation is not warranted, is that these attacks cannot be separated from antisemitism (re: my previous post here). Claiming that antisemitism has no part in this is disingenuous.

Also, we can agree to disagree about retaliation but ask yourself really honestly: if the roles in this incident had been reversed, would you have felt the same? Or would you have thought something like 'given what the Palestinians are going through it's understandable that they act like this and the didn't deserve that kind of violent reaction'

[DJChameleon]

the problem, apart from the fact that violence in retaliation is not warranted, is that these attacks cannot be separated from antisemitism (re: my previous post here). Claiming that antisemitism has no part in this is disingenuous.

Also, we can agree to disagree about retaliation but ask yourself really honestly: if the roles in this incident had been reversed, would you have felt the same? Or would you have thought something like 'given what the Palestinians are going through it's understandable that they act like this and the didn't deserve that kind of violent reaction'

They can be separated. They weren't just attacked for being Jewish. They were attack for their behavior. Two different things.

If the situation was reversed and it was Palestinians causing chaos against them and they got beat up for it. I would feel the same way.

[Marie Monday]

Then we can agree to disagree. But about the first point, they cannot be separated because they were attacked for both reasons. Even if there is also another reason, antisemitism is a part of it too, and that should be kept in mind in dealing with it.
Also, saying that its justified because an eye for an eye etc. is one thing, but even if thats your stance, surely you see the problem in going from there to 'jews always play the victim'

[DJChameleon]

The "jews always play the victim" statement comes from the media constantly forcing down everyone's throats stories about antisemitism but consistently ignoring stories about Muslims getting attacked and this has been going on for more than a year at this point.

[Trollheart]

I think I've made my position clear, so will step back from this now as I have no wish to get into any fights or debates which might get too heated. Moving slightly on, in terms of what Saulaac said, this is not new. Even back in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries (possibly further back too) there were what were called "agents provocateur", people inserted/embedded in a specific group to stir up unrest and cause trouble, and often turn a peaceful protest into a violent riot. For a more recent example of this, see the British coal miners' strikes of the 1970s and particularly the 1980s, when police agents are known to have infiltrated the mining unions and put their people in there to cause trouble, in order to give Thatcher's government an excuse to crack heads. Or look back to the massacre known as Peterloo in the 19th century, when what were called "yeos" or yeomen, basically thugs hired by the army as a kind of unofficial miliita - used extensively in Ireland but also in England - stirred up trouble at a peaceful protest and set off a massacre. It's all about having just one or two people there who can turn to the crowd and say "Hey! We're not taking this!" or someone who throws a rock, or gives the impression someone has thrown a rock, and so on. Interesting, too, to read about the "hive mind" of the mob/crowd, which I've explored in some of my journals. Why do we act differently in a crowd than we would were we on our own?