Kanye West

[SGR]

Good lord, debating Eminem's discography in a Kanye thread. It's like a tiring but humourous flasback to MB times.

Kanye recently referring to Chester Bennington as "The Lincoln Park kid" makes me laugh - like, Kanye knows enough about Chester to "know" there was some duplicitous conspiracy surrounding his death, but also can't remember his name or how to spell his band's name. 

[Lucem Ferre]

Music Banter would have been much more condescending.

[SGR]

That's true. 

[Lexi Darling]

Good lord, debating Eminem's discography in a Kanye thread. It's like a tiring but humourous flasback to MB times.

Kanye recently referring to Chester Bennington as "The Lincoln Park kid" makes me laugh - like, Kanye knows enough about Chester to "know" there was some duplicitous conspiracy surrounding his death, but also can't remember his name or how to spell his band's name. 

Also calling Chester a "kid", not realizing the fact that he was born a year before Kanye was and died at age 41.

[SGR]

Also calling Chester a "kid", not realizing the fact that he was born a year before Kanye was and died at age 41.

Yeah, it comes off as disrespectful, but I'm not sure that's the intent. Kanye is older now than Chester was then. Poor wording all around though.

[Trollheart]

Thanks for the explanation, @SGR
So basically would it be fair to say that a "musician", in very broad terms, in hip-hop is more a producer/arranger/engineer, moving stuff around and trimming and mixing so that it suits his or her purposes (or those of the artist they're working with/for), but that to be VERY BASIC HERE and not condescending to anyone, they don't PLAY instruments? As in, go into a hip-hop studio and you won't find people plugging in keyboards and guitars and sitting at drum kits? I know it may be a narrow definition of music, but it's an important distinction. I could, for instance (when it worked) play a few chords on my synth and then put them into CuBase or something and make them into a real melody or even song, but I would not have considered myself at all a musician. That's all I mean: apart from sampling - which I realise is probably the second most valued tool of any hip-hop artist (hip-hopper? Hipper? Big bouncy rabbit?) - the artists don't MAKE NEW, ORIGINAL music. Would that be a fair approximation?

[jimmy jazz]

I loved MMLP2. 🤷

It had one or two decent moments and quite a bit of cringe. I listened to it again recently (I put an album on in the shed when I'm training) and it's like a 5/6 out of 10.

[jimmy jazz]

Thanks for the explanation, @SGR
So basically would it be fair to say that a "musician", in very broad terms, in hip-hop is more a producer/arranger/engineer, moving stuff around and trimming and mixing so that it suits his or her purposes (or those of the artist they're working with/for), but that to be VERY BASIC HERE and not condescending to anyone, they don't PLAY instruments? As in, go into a hip-hop studio and you won't find people plugging in keyboards and guitars and sitting at drum kits? I know it may be a narrow definition of music, but it's an important distinction. I could, for instance (when it worked) play a few chords on my synth and then put them into CuBase or something and make them into a real melody or even song, but I would not have considered myself at all a musician. That's all I mean: apart from sampling - which I realise is probably the second most valued tool of any hip-hop artist (hip-hopper? Hipper? Big bouncy rabbit?) - the artists don't MAKE NEW, ORIGINAL music. Would that be a fair approximation?

No cos some of them do.

Also you absolutely are a musician if you're making beats on Cubase, FL or whatever. It's just a different skill to playing a physical instrument.

[SGR]

No cos some of them do.

Also you absolutely are a musician if you're making beats on Cubase, FL or whatever. It's just a different skill to playing a physical instrument.

^ What he said.

Again, music /=/ live instruments

And new, original music /=/ live instruments

Here's how Oxford defines 'music':

sounds that are arranged in a way that is pleasant or exciting to listen to. People sing music or play it on instruments.

I don't understand how electronica seems to always avoid this mass misunderstanding and confusion among older generations with their vast array of digital tools/technology, but hip-hop does not. Once again, no offense intended to you in particular Trolls.

But yes, even in hip-hop, live instruments are sometimes used. As a big Miles Davis fan (and stan), my go-to example is Tribe Called Quest getting renowned bassist Ron Carter (from Miles Davis Second Great Quintet fame) to play bass on this track:

[jimmy jazz]

The Roots are big on live instruments too.

[Trollheart]

Okay well thanks for the compliment but I wouldn't call myself a musician doing that, but maybe it's just my age.

However, live instruments being used still doesn't answer my question, which is do they make NEW music? Someone playing bass alongside, say, Bill Withers' "Lovely Day", to be sampled, while certainly music is not new music. New music is someone sits down at a piano, plugs in or slings on a guitar or whatever, hums a tune and works out a melody and then adds lyrics (unless they leave it as an instrumental). It's never been heard before. It's new. This is what I mean. Are there melodies in hip-hop, created by those artists, which have not been used before?

In case anyone thinks it, I'm not trying to denigrate hip-hop musicians, nor make any case for an argument they're not musicians. I don't care. I'm just interested. Do they use, let's call it recycled music all the time, or do they write their own, new, original music? That's really all I want to know, and it's only for my own information and education, not to prove a point or use it against anyone. I'm a laid-back guy. In fact, I'm so laid-back I can't get up. Help!

[Saulaac]

Whilst I don't often hear live instrumentation in hip hop tracks (I mean I sometimes do in more jazzy hip hop or broken beat), most vocal hip hop artists don't seem to be that bothered with live instrumentation. Their skill seems to be identifying sounds and samples which link best with their vocal delivery. I would argue that most of them probably have keyboards in their studios so they can flesh out ideas.

The below mixtape contains all sorts of gems. Samples I could hear are Bob James and Ahmad Jamal, and there is a nice chord sequence between 19:48 and 19:49 which I'm sure is from Herbie Hancock but I can't work out which one (come on Saulaac get your thinking cap on!).

@Trollheart I think that a lot of the music on that mixtape is arguably "new", even though some of it is recognisable from the past. Just like prog rock and jazz rock borrowed heavily from Stravinsky, Bach, Bartok etc.

So as my appreciation and understanding of jazz funk has improved over the years, so too has my appreciation of hip hop. And vice versa.

I still find it hard to get down with really agressive rap. A lot of it doesn't sound that musical to me.

Room4Movement MIX #010 (Beats & Hip Hop)

[jimmy jazz]

Okay well thanks for the compliment but I wouldn't call myself a musician doing that, but maybe it's just my age.

However, live instruments being used still doesn't answer my question, which is do they make NEW music? Someone playing bass alongside, say, Bill Withers' "Lovely Day", to be sampled, while certainly music is not new music. New music is someone sits down at a piano, plugs in or slings on a guitar or whatever, hums a tune and works out a melody and then adds lyrics (unless they leave it as an instrumental). It's never been heard before. It's new. This is what I mean. Are there melodies in hip-hop, created by those artists, which have not been used before?

In case anyone thinks it, I'm not trying to denigrate hip-hop musicians, nor make any case for an argument they're not musicians. I don't care. I'm just interested. Do they use, let's call it recycled music all the time, or do they write their own, new, original music? That's really all I want to know, and it's only for my own information and education, not to prove a point or use it against anyone. I'm a laid-back guy. In fact, I'm so laid-back I can't get up. Help!

Yes some compose new music entirely.

And also if you yourself made music on your computer using FL or whatever, you would be a musician just not a very good one.

[Trollheart]

That's very unfair. I think I would say I would be a very bad one.  (How does "Three Blind Mice" go again? Or are we allowed mention that, since it's both speciesist and ableist?)

[Lexi Darling]

It's kind of apples and oranges to compare hip hop to traditional instrumental music. The method of its initial creation was entirely different. Hip hop started as a thing DJs did at block parties where they would take turntables and commercial records and remix them live to extend the parts of the record that worked best as party music. That's where the classic hip hop record scratching started as well. Eventually the MCs of these parties would start rapping over the remixed records that the DJ was playing, with the DJ manipulating the records so that only the instrumental would be heard so the MC could rap over it. That was the genesis of hip hop as remix culture, rather than a culture that was rooted in instrumental performance.

Once digital samplers came around in the 80s the remix culture element remained, they just switched to using less clunky tech that also enabled them to get more creative with chopping samples, re-pitching them and using lots more samples per track a la the Beastie Boys' Paul's Boutique. A lot of people would sample a few different elements from different songs, and would augment their productions with sequenced synthesizers and sometimes acoustic instruments.

So it started with a totally different paradigm of art entirely from rock, jazz, classical, etc, and to appreciate the nuances of hip hop production you can't really think about it the same way as those traditional instrument genres imo.