Kanye West

[SGR]

No as it's a group album and he has released solo material. Same with Rakim.

I don't know, that seems like a bit of an arbitrary distinction to me. Especially when you consider that Andre 3K did become quite involved with the production of Outkast - and not only was the production great, so were his mic skills and lyricism. And also, probably most hip hop records are 'group efforts' in the sense that there's typically a team of engineers and producers behind them - not to mention there's typically several featured artists on various tracks (though that's not always the case). So it seems strange to not count that as a classic record an artist made just because he/she doesn't get solo billing on the album cover.

Also, you counted Snoop Dogg as an example of an artist who has made a classic record (Doggystyle), but I'm confident that it would be quite unlikely that album would be classic without Dr. Dre (not to mention the bevy of features the album has). So even though Snoop's name is on the album cover, the lines between 'solo effort/group effort' become blurry.

[jimmy jazz]

It's not strange, it has to be a solo album.

Andre's solo album was shit. Rakim's were nothing special. Both all-time great rappers.

[Trollheart]

I've looked back to see where the rule was made that it had to be a solo album and I can't see it, though I readily admit I know about as much about hip-hop as I do about building an engine for a car. ICP are not solo though, so where's the connection that I missed?

Or maybe I should just fuck off and not get involved in discussions about which I know nothing?

[jimmy jazz]

I've looked back to see where the rule was made that it had to be a solo album and I can't see it, though I readily admit I know about as much about hip-hop as I do about building an engine for a car. ICP are not solo though, so where's the connection that I missed?

Or maybe I should just fuck off and not get involved in discussions about which I know nothing?

Lucem said that Eminem is in a lot of highly regarded Hip-Hop artists' top 5 rappers therefore his music can't be that shit. I replied that he's in their top 5s because of his mic skills. Meaning as a spitter and lyricist, his flow, wordplay, complexity and whatever else... It's not for his back catalogue.

The point I was making is that being a great rapper doesn't necessarily translate to being a great musician. Eminem is a great rapper, but he makes shit music. Then I gave examples of other rappers who are great but haven't made good solo albums, and an average rapper who has. There are other examples but you get the basic point.

[SGR]

It's not strange, it has to be a solo album.

Andre's solo album was shit. Rakim's were nothing special. Both all-time great rappers.

I still am not sold on the distinction, but even if I was, I'm not sure how it's useful. Again, Doggystyle is undoubtedly a classic record, but I don't think you'd argue that without Dr. Dre's production, it's almost certainly not a classic. But yet Snoop gets full credit for that record as a classic 'solo' album because his name is on the album cover? Forgetting the production, Snoop probably had at most ~60% of the verses on the album too, sharing mic duty with 9 other rappers. I don't see how Snoop gets credit for a classic album but Andre 3K doesn't because he went under the shared name of 'Outkast' with Big Boi - I'd wager Andre 3K had much more creative influence on how Outkast's records sounded than Snoop did on Doggystyle.

[Lucem Ferre]

Imagine if Kanye painted his face like a clown and started rapping about killing racists like an adult instead of dressing in Klan robes and heiling Hitler like a 14 year old on 4chan.

Juggalo Kanye > Nazi Kanye

Edit:

The Rakim one is completely unfair. It's a rapper/producer collab. Paid In Full is a classic.

And Eminem does make good music. An example of a phenomenal rapper that makes shit music is something more like Cannibus.

I'd consider SSLP good, MMLP a legendary classic, Eminem Show was good, Encore is meh, Relapse an underrated gem, Recovery overrated mediocrity, MMLP 2 is phenomenal, Repulsive or what ever that album was called is some of the worst crap I've ever heard and ICP has never dropped an album that bad, Kamikaze was forgettable, Music To Be Murdered By was alright, the B-sides album was much better & his newest album was alright.

[jimmy jazz]

I still am not sold on the distinction, but even if I was, I'm not sure how it's useful. Again, Doggystyle is undoubtedly a classic record, but I don't think you'd argue that without Dr. Dre's production, it's almost certainly not a classic. But yet Snoop gets full credit for that record as a classic 'solo' album because his name is on the album cover? Forgetting the production, Snoop probably had at most ~60% of the verses on the album too, sharing mic duty with 9 other rappers. I don't see how Snoop gets credit for a classic album but Andre 3K doesn't because he went under the shared name of 'Outkast' with Big Boi - I'd wager Andre 3K had much more creative influence on how Outkast's records sounded than Snoop did on Doggystyle.

It really doesn't matter and I didn't say I was giving Snoop full credit for the Doggystyle album. Without producers rappers wouldn't have albums at all anyway. Also, choosing which producer to work with, what features you have and what beats to use is a part of being an artist.

The point is, being a great rapper doesn't necessarily mean you make great music. You can be a great rapper and your music is actually not great (Eminem).

[Lucem Ferre]

I can't believe you're forcing me to defend overrated Eminem.

Edit: Paris > Ice Cube

[Trollheart]

Again I'm going to come over as a total n00b here (which I am, in terms of the hippety to the hop hop hop) but it was my - probably wrong - understanding that hip-hop artists didn't actually play music, just used samples and rapped over those? That's obviously incorrect if you're saying they can have bad music. Just wondering if I have it arse about face as usual?

[SGR]

Again I'm going to come over as a total n00b here (which I am, in terms of the hippety to the hop hop hop) but it was my - probably wrong - understanding that hip-hop artists didn't actually play music, just used samples and rapped over those?

That's a very gross generalization (no offense to you of course) - hip hop used to be more sample-heavy/reliant in the late '80s/'90s. And a lot of hard-work and time goes into how the samples are selected and manipulated/chopped/looped/etc. Clearing lots of samples can be very expensive though, especially these days (the story goes that the Beastie Boys would not be able to afford to make Paul's Boutique, a record they created in 1989, were they to attempt to do so today) - so many of the beats and backing tracks these days is created/fine-tuned by producers/engineers as original pieces via digital audio workstations and technology (which have become cheaper and more widely available). Though of course, samples are still often used in the mix - depends on the artist.

That's obviously incorrect if you're saying they can have bad music. Just wondering if I have it arse about face as usual?

Whether any hip-hop we're discussing is sample-heavy or not, it's still music. Not to speak for Jimmy, but I think what he means in context of this discussion is while certain rappers can be technically impressive/proficient on a mic (complicated rhyme schemes, good lyricism, good flow), the music as a whole (the beats, samples, backing tracks, chords, melodies, choruses, etc) can still be poor.

Music /=/ live instruments

[Lucem Ferre]

There is an art to sampling and I suck at it.

[SGR]

There is an art to sampling and I suck at it.

Absolutely. It's no secret I'm big into house music, and a lot of house DJs picked up sampling from hip-hop and implemented the techniques into their own tracks/remixes. When it comes to a gold standard example of excellent sampling in house music, I always go back to "Push the Feeling On".

Nightcrawlers released the original in 1992 - and it was essentially just a forgettable disco song that no one would otherwise likely even remember today. MK (Mark Kinchen) took it shortley thereafter, chopped it, looped it, gave it a driving, danceable beat and turned it into a unforgettable house masterpiece. It so eclipsed the original that when Nightcrawlers performed the track afterwards, they'd perform MK's remix 

Original:

MK remix:

[Lucem Ferre]

For the record ICP > Kanye is contested.


But nobody disagreed that :wumpscut:, Lupe Fiasco, Show Me The Body, Twiztid & Mortal Kombat II for the Super Nintendo are all also better than Kanye.

[jimmy jazz]

Just seen you said MMLP2 is phenomenal? Overrating it slightly there 😂

Revival was diabolical yes, as is almost everything he's done after Lose Yourself.

[Lucem Ferre]

Just seen you said MMLP2 is phenomenal? Overrating it slightly there 😂

Revival was diabolical yes, as is almost everything he's done after Lose Yourself.

I loved MMLP2. 🤷