cis male is a slur

[Marie Monday]

I'm also not at all sure that there is a world of difference between sexual orientation and gender. Take for instance the fact that gender, as distinct from sex, plays a large role in the sexual orientation of many people. I haven't thought about this properly yet so I may have more to say about it later

[Lexi Darling]

I do enjoy spicy stories about trans cuties wilding out and thus I follow a couple of Twitter accounts that aggregate both social media posts by actual trans people and the odd tabloid story, but it doesn't mean I think all trans people are anything like those monsters. I'm sure most are as inoffensive as Mrs. Waffles. That doesn't change the larger point that men should not be in single-sex spaces designated for women. 

So if your point is "I don't hate trans people, I hate predators", I'm gonna blow your mind here, so do I. And so does every trans person worth listening to. There are bad minorities who do awful things and even reinforce negative stereotypes. That being true is not grounds for legal discrimination against us or denial of our healthcare, and it does not make the existence of trans people less legitimate.

And as for enjoying stories like that, maybe you should ask yourself why you enjoy reading about awful trans people so much. If you mean to come off like you respect us on a baseline human level, you're not doing a very good job. It makes me feel very weird to know that you get a kick out of affirming your bias against trans people like that.

[jadis]

Is the brain not considered part of biology? And please explain to me how gay rights are a legitimate cause but trans rights are not.

I'd also like to let everyone know that the site Jadis linked is a "free speech" video hosting site that is a popular destination for far right videos that would be banned on the real Youtube for hate speech. So keep in mind exactly where the video's spin is coming from.

And you do realize that your rhetoric hurts all trans people, right? Not just the "monsters"? I'm glad you think I am "inoffensive" but whether it is your intention or not, you are parroting the same talking points that are leading to politicians and even individual clinics (such as mine) attempting to ban gender-affirming care, and not just for minors.

Gladly. Gay rights is a justifiably popular cause, because it's really about equal rights. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to the claim that gay marriage should be legal it means nothing. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to Lia Thomas's desire to participate in women's swimming races or to the demand that a female beautician do a Brazilian on someone's cock and balls, it is very clear what are the rights being violated.

You can add as many letter and symbols to the LGB as you please, it will never make your cause anything like the gay rights movement. 

But all there is in that video is tiktoks etc of actual trans people. The 95% of the speech is done by trans people themselves. The little voiceover that accompanies it is taken mostly from one feminist essay that is not "hateful."

What hurts trans people is the political claims of trans activists. Lia Thomas hurts trans people.

[Lexi Darling]

Gladly. Gay rights is a justifiably popular cause, because it's really about equal rights. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to the claim that gay marriage should be legal it means nothing. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to Lia Thomas's desire to participate in women's swimming races or to the demand that a female beautician do a Brazilian on someone's cock and balls, it is very clear what are the rights being violated. 

Is it impossible to treat specific cases and issues with nuance instead of going to the extreme to debase trans people, misgender them and make grand sweeping statements about their group?

I'm aware of what the video is, I skimmed through it a bit. And if the voiceover is this,

Gender ideology represents the literal embodiment of male entitlement to women, and the sexualized power hierarchy that feminists once described as gender, or sex role stereotypes. This eroticization of power and powerlessness has the effect of naturalizing women's subordinate role in society. When men perform a parody of femininity and claim this farce is what women truly are, they are fundamentally deconstructing women's humanity, reducing half the human population to a demeaning and objectified fantasy; but crucially, they are redirecting women back to the restrictive roles that afforded them power over the female sex in the first place.

The belief that womanhood can be attained through a combination of desire reframed as devout suffering, alongside the purchasing of products — clothing, cosmetics, surgeries — is, at its core, a belief that women are commodities which men are entitled to possess. It is a belief system that attempts to define women as fetish objects and reduces women to the Freudian castrated male.

Then yes, it is hella hateful. Painting a minority as being wicked by default and insinuating their identity is illegitimate, and in this case an affront to human decency even, is actually quite hateful.

[Guybrush]

But at least they don't teach you that if you don't like playing with dolls as a girl and prefer blue to pink you were "born in the wrong body" (if this isn't cult-like indoctrination then I don't know what is) and should be put on the drug used chemically castrate pedophiles, then take cross sex hormones and eventually undergo double mastectomy and have your uterus cut out and get a barely functional sausage made from your thigh meet. 

Didn't catch this. I'm sure it's a real thing. Probably happens all the time.

[jadis]

So if your point is "I don't hate trans people, I hate predators", I'm gonna blow your mind here, so do I. And so does every trans person worth listening to. There are bad minorities who do awful things and even reinforce negative stereotypes. That being true is not grounds for legal discrimination against us or denial of our healthcare, and it does not make the existence of trans people less legitimate.

And as for enjoying stories like that, maybe you should ask yourself why you enjoy reading about awful trans people so much. If you mean to come off like you respect us on a baseline human level, you're not doing a very good job. It makes me feel very weird to know that you get a kick out of affirming your bias against trans people like that.

I don't think the majority of trans people I regard as detestable are necessarily predators. What they are is a group of entitled and aggressive men who have no business in single sex spaces for women but who really, really want to access them. The vast majority of sex crimes are crimes of opportunity, which is why we should minimize those. Including the opportunities for voyeurism and exhibitionism. 

Respect is earned. But I'll do a much better job of showing it when the conversation regarding political claims becomes tethered to reality.

[jadis]

Didn't catch this. I'm sure it's a real thing. Probably happens all the time.

Literally happens all the time in places like Canada and Cali. Not in the Norwegian village where you live though.

The most shocking thing about the current craze is the rise in FtM among young girls. It's absolutely unprecedented. Until the last decade and a half the whole trans phenomenon was restricted to middle aged fetishists and a sliver of young boys. Now it's spread like wildfire among young girls.

[Marie Monday]

Respect is earned. But I'll do a much better job of showing it when the conversation regarding political claim becomes tethered to reality.

no, there is a baseline of respect that is the default until forfeited and does not need to be earned. And with the way you're talking you sometimes let go of that respect for trans people categorically, which is unfair

[jadis]

no, there is a baseline of respect that is the default until forfeited and does not need to be earned. And with the way you're talking you sometimes forfeit that respect for trans people categorically, which is unfair

[I'll preface the following by saying that it refers to MtFs, not the girl thing] 

IMO it works like that IRL, not so much online where we lead with our opinions rather than our embodied presence.

The thing with vocal trans activists is that they don't exactly give you a lot of space to afford them that baseline of respect. When you're leading with political claims it becomes a different matter. 

Above all, respect implies a degree of recognition, which is key. What we all want deep down is recognition by other people. When I desire someone what I need is to receive from that person the recognition of myself as desired... or if you do extreme sports or whatever you want a recognition from other people that you're a badass. What many trans people want is the recognition of themselves as members of their chosen gender. Which is as human a desire as any other. But human desires drive political claims and political claims fuel conflicts, resolving which is a matter of strategy.

Speaking for myself (and IMO this should be a broad-based position), I will gladly respect the hell out of any André the Giant lookalike's self-ID as a teenage thot once the two non-negotiables (women-only spaces and the mass medicalization of gender non-conforming children) are off the table.

[Marie Monday]

I know all that but that's not quite what you're doing. The lack of respect extends further, towards people who don't deserve it

[Lexi Darling]

Speaking for myself (and IMO this should be a broad-based position), I will gladly respect the hell out of any André the Giant lookalike's self-ID as a teenage thot once the two non-negotiables (women-only spaces and the mass medicalization of gender non-conforming children) are off the table.

I get that. But your constant rude mocking jabs at trans women like this one give me the impression that there is something deeper to your attitude toward us. Comments like this and plenty of other stuff you've said are just disrespectful in general, not to mention the multiple times you have directly insulted me to my face.

I want to take you at your word, but this behavior gives a more disingenuous impression.

[jadis]

I know all that but that's not quite what you're doing. The lack of respect extends further, towards people who don't deserve it

Like who? People like the older trans geezers I mentioned, who have no pretensions of being women despite having undergone vaginoplasties (I think they did, not sure actually)? They don't mind catching a few strays. One of them at least, who I spoke to quite in depth years ago.  

Respect and recognition are precious commodities and will be dealt out conditionally (okay writing this made me laugh cause it makes me sound like a tough negotiator whereas IRL I'm a pussy who's extremely cautious as to my language for obvious reasons).

If you're a trans person who agrees that my position is tenable, I want you to make your voice heard against the maximalist demands of the activist wing so that they pipe the fuck down.

I get that. But your constant rude mocking jabs at trans women like this one give me the impression that there is something deeper to your attitude toward us. Comments like this and plenty of other stuff you've said are just disrespectful in general, not to mention the multiple times you have directly insulted me to my face.

I want to take you at your word, but this behavior gives a more disingenuous impression.

I wonder what deeply buried prejudice lies behind my remarks on a group of people a sizable proportion of which I designated a few replies ago as entitled creeps who are precisely one opportunity away from flashing or peeping... Like I said, recognition and respect in this situation should be conditional.

My more derogatory remarks to you were concerning you as a person. I form my opinion of people based on what they say and how they say it. I know trans people who are really interesting and knowledgeable and cool.

[Lexi Darling]

Whatever dude. There are creeps in all walks of life, yet you're fixated on trans people because you are prejudiced and you are rude and disrespectful to constantly misgender and mock the "entitled" people who more than likely are not as much of heinous sex pests as you think and are more often than not just trying to live their lives.

I'm sure you know a lot of interesting trans people who are super cool with knowing that your respect and decency toward trans people hinges on whether they've met your standards of being "the right kind of trans people" or not. Just because you know trans people who are as judgmental as you does not make your disrespectful behavior justified.

I would never misgender cis people or make snide comments about their cisness, even though there are some cis-dominated spaces that make me uncomfortable and a lot of the actions done in the name of cisness really cheese me off. You doing so to trans people does not make you a noble warrior crusading to protect cis people everywhere, it just makes you look pathetic to keep posting these transphobic articles and then trying to save face by pretending you care about trans people.

Like, do you treat every trans person this way? Like some AMAB person introduces themself as "she/her" and you're like "nuh uh, you have to prove to me that you're a legit trans woman and not a perverted man in a dress before I treat you with respect".

[jadis]

As always, you talk straight past me with braindead activist cliches.

Yes, I happen to focus on the creeps in one particular walk of life: those who want to access women's spaces and rewrite laws to be based on subjective self-ID rather than reality. They are free to live their lives in a way that doesn't impinge on others in ways that cannot be accommodated in a liberal democracy that prizes the participation of (biological) women in public life. I don't give a solitary shit what precise proportion of them are dangerous predators or flashers or voyeurs because none of them should be anywhere near single sex female spaces. Even the nice ones (anecdotally, the more menacing ones are almost always the straight guys/"trans lesbians", but in this discussion it doesn't matter).

For the thousandth time, I don't subscribe to a distinction re what trans people are "valid" or "real" or "legitimate" and which are not. I don't think in those categories, it's none of my business. But between a young gender nonconfirming girl brainwashed by Tiktok into cutting her breasts and ovaries and a bepenised middle aged accountant who wants to be affirmed in his identity of a cute hoe with hot tits, I know what my reaction to each is. 

I would love it if you talked more about how cisness makes you uncomfortable. Please do. I promise to play nice and ask only nonjudgmental questions if any or just to shut up.

[Lexi Darling]

It's pretty funny how you call my points "cliches" while yourself using the most tired, hackneyed stereotypes of trans people you can think of.

Also I did not say cisness makes me uncomfortable. I'm not going to answer your question anyway, I've had quite enough of your questions, non-judgmental or otherwise. I'm going to enjoy my ladies' luncheon with my gal pals and have an afternoon free of all this negativity. Sorry to disappoint you.