cis male is a slur

[jadis]

I'd wanna use it to protect children against things like religious indoctrination. These guys thinks of critical race theory and transgender content.

I haven't read the specific legislation so can't comment on it.

I am not a fan of religious indoctrination. But at least they don't teach you that if you don't like playing with dolls as a girl and prefer blue to pink you were "born in the wrong body" (if this isn't cult-like indoctrination then I don't know what is) and should be put on the drug used chemically castrate pedophiles, then take cross sex hormones and eventually undergo double mastectomy and have your uterus cut out and get a barely functional sausage made from your thigh meet. 

[jadis]

I don't google for it lol, I just follow a few Twitter accounts that deliver the good shit.

The race analogy is always there implicitly when someone is talking about a "marginalized group" in the American context (and increasingly we're all Americans these days). And it makes zero sense. No one's rights got trampled by the political demands of the civil rights movement. With transgenderism, it's a different story. I believe it's important to highlight who are some of the people that are getting access to women-only spaces.

You're welcome to ban me. Your call.

[Lexi Darling]

I don't google for it lol, I just follow a few Twitter accounts that deliver the good shit.

The race analogy is always there implicitly when someone is talking about a "marginalized group" in the American context (and increasingly we're all Americans these days). And it makes zero sense. No one's rights got trampled by the political demands of the civil rights movement. With transgenderism, it's a different story. I believe it's important to highlight who are some of the people that are getting access to women-only spaces.

You're welcome to ban me. Your call.

No one's rights are being trampled by trans people having the right to exist and transition and live their lives. Civil rights is not a perfect analogy, but it's interesting that you bring it up as I'd think some of the people who benefited from racial segregation thought their rights were being trampled by black people having access to what were once whites-only spaces.

It's very curious to me that you're so paranoid about trans people attacking cis women. It reminds me of Trump-esque "ban Muslims from entering the country because some of them could be terrorists" rhetoric.

[jadis]

I feel very strongly about everyone's right to live their lives as they choose. That's the best thing about the modern world. But, and we've been through this a thousand times, political claims that touch upon all of society is a different matter.

Forget attacking. The two most widespread sex crimes, by a huge margin, are exhibitionism and voyeurism. Men's very presence in single sex spaces for women is always a violation. 

Though the violation I'm way more paranoid about is the medicalization of mostly gay, often autistic children because they fail to conform to the most retarded and arbitrary gender norms. The way these kids are lied to when they're told that they can become members of the opposite sex upon growing up (impossible, not a thing) is beyond medical malpractice.   

If I had a penny each time a dense and ignorant American compared something to Trump I'd be a very rich man.

[Guybrush]

I don't google for it lol, I just follow a few Twitter accounts that deliver the good shit.

The race analogy is always there implicitly when someone is talking about a "marginalized group" in the American context (and increasingly we're all Americans these days). And it makes zero sense. No one's rights got trampled by the political demands of the civil rights movement. With transgenderism, it's a different story. I believe it's important to highlight who are some of the people that are getting access to women-only spaces.

You're welcome to ban me. Your call.

It's so bizarre. You already know there are crazy, awful people of every sort. If you let anyone in anywhere, you'll also let some bad ones in. It ALSO means there's bad people already there, like there are crazy, pooping, dick fondling, meth headed cis women in women spaces too.

And getting hung up on this, aren't you also just swallowing the bait? There are so many actually important issues for society, like racism, drug use, gun violence, conspiracy theory, religion. If anything, republicans harping on trans issues and blowing them up seems like, besides being awful, like a way to shift focus away from issues that are much more important and where they're not helping.

[Guybrush]

Though the violation I'm way more paranoid about is the medicalization of mostly gay, often autistic children because they fail to conform to the most retarded and arbitrary gender norms. The way these kids are lied to when they're told that they can become members of the opposite sex upon growing up (impossible, not a thing) is beyond medical malpractice. 

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that they may experience very real gender dysphoria which may push them towards a poorer quality of life, substance abuse and suicide. In other words, you seem completely one sided. You want to protect people or children? Only as long as they're not trans as you haven't shown a shred of concern or empathy for any trans people.

So are you discussing from a place of wanting to help or from a place of judgment?

[Lexi Darling]

I feel very strongly about everyone's right to live their lives as they choose. That's the best thing about the modern world. But, and we've been through this a thousand times, political claims that touch upon all of society is a different matter.

Forget attacking. The two most widespread sex crimes, by a huge margin, are exhibitionism and voyeurism. Men's very presence in single sex spaces for women is always a violation. 

Though the violation I'm way more paranoid about is the medicalization of mostly gay, often autistic children because they fail to conform to the most retarded and arbitrary gender norms. The way these kids are lied to when they're told that they can become members of the opposite sex upon growing up (impossible, not a thing) is beyond medical malpractice. 

If I had a penny each time a dense and ignorant American compared something to Trump I'd be a very rich man.

Political claims like "women should have the right to vote" and "gay people should have the right to marry who they want"? Those do impact society and there was and is plenty of opposition to them.

Changing your gender is not impossible just because you think it is. We're not transitioning to impress you.

[Lexi Darling]

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that they may experience very real gender dysphoria which may push them towards a poorer quality of life, substance abuse and suicide. In other words, you seem completely one sided. You want to protect people or children? Only as long as they're not trans as you haven't shown a shred of concern or empathy for any trans people.

So are you discussing from a place of wanting to help or from a place of judgment?

I get this vibe too. It seems kind of telling that he considers Twitter feeds of anti-trans articles to be "delivering the good shit", like he's happy about reading stories of trans people suffering.

And I know he's going to come back and say "those kids aren't really trans, they were transed by Big Pharma indoctrinating them!!!" like he's the grand authority and arbiter of who kids are.

Edit: Maybe it would be a better idea to move this discussion to the "cis male" thread lol.

[Marie Monday]

I agree with Guybrush too. @jadis as I've said before I share some of your concerns and I think they're valid, it's just that you discuss them in a way that's sometimes disrespectful, one-sided, and generalising. For instance, you can be worried about the importance assigned to gender and its implications for some people (like gender nonconforming autistic kids) without being hostile to trans people or dismissing ways to deal with gender dysphoria that work for some people. You can also be concerned with the safety of cis women without the same hostility, and without dismissing the safety of trans women in a disproportionate way. It frustrates me because I do think these kind of discussions are important and should happen, but it's no good if it's not constructive

[jadis]

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that they may experience very real gender dysphoria which may push them towards a poorer quality of life, substance abuse and suicide. In other words, you seem completely one sided. You want to protect people or children? Only as long as they're not trans as you haven't shown a shred of concern or empathy for any trans people.

So are you discussing from a place of wanting to help or from a place of judgment?

You have to be a monster to not feel concern and sympathy for kids suffering of gender incongruence, which usually comes with a host of other mental health conditions and frequently difficult situations in life. They should be given supportive and empathetic counseling, their parents should be taught how not pile on the pressure on them but rather make them feel okay with who they are. I've heard of a mother who made an enormous difference in her life's daughter by simply telling her "come honey, we're gonna buy you a whole new wardrobe of clothes that will make you feel good about your body."

Studies conducted by clinics including the Tavistock in London have shown that the vast majority of these kids will grow up to be gay and lesbians adults for whom those feelings are a distant memory. Until, that is, the clinics decided that the "affirming" approach is the right one (where else in medicine does the patient get to dictate the doctor what their condition is all about?). Now these kids are defined as "trans" and put on the path to medicalization: chemical castration, cross-sex hormones and surgical intervention.

The path of understanding, empathy and self-acceptance is being blocked by solutions that profit the pharma industry and that lend continuing relevancy to certain NGOs that otherwise would've become obsolete after the victories of the gay rights movement. 

[Lexi Darling]

You only seem to think in the greatest of extremes, Jadis.

"Making kids feel okay with who they are" is a great ideal! But you think being trans is not "who they are", you are speaking for them and impressing your values on them. I think it's way more common for parents to enforce being cis on their kids. How is that any better than your idea that doctors are enforcing them on the path to identifying as trans?

For the record, I do not support gender surgery for minors, or even hormones necessarily. But I think once that kid is 18 they can live their life and do what makes them comfortable. You have no right to come in and say to an adult "you're not really trans, you were brainwashed by Big Pharma as a kid!!!"

[Guybrush]

You have to be a monster to not feel concern and sympathy for kids suffering of gender incongruence, which usually comes with a host of other mental health conditions and frequently difficult situations in life. They should be given supportive and empathetic counseling, their parents should be taught how not pile on the pressure on them but rather make them feel okay with who they are. I've heard of a mother who made an enormous difference in her life's daughter by simply telling her "come honey, we're gonna buy you a whole new wardrobe of clothes that will make you feel good about your body."

Studies conducted by clinics including the Tavistock in London have shown that the vast majority of these kids will grow up to be gay and lesbians adults for whom those feelings are a distant memory. Until, that is, the clinics decided that the "affirming" approach is the right one (where else in medicine does the patient get to dictate the doctor what their condition is all about?). Now these kids are defined as "trans" and put on the path to medicalization: chemical castration, cross-sex hormones and surgical intervention.

The path of understanding, empathy and self-acceptance is being blocked by solutions that profit the pharma industry and that lend continuing relevancy to certain NGOs that otherwise would've become obsolete after the victories of the gay rights movement. 

@jadis You know, you explain what the world is like, but I find it a little difficult to believe at face value.

You're an academic and an intelligent guy. Surely, you must be aware that the twitter accounts that are feeding you information are not actually giving you a nuanced view of what goes on in the real world. Instead, they're cherry picking. They ignore happy trans stories, instead only serving you "good shit" about transpeople groping prison guards and pooping in cars. When those cherry picked bits of information come to inform your perception of the whole world, you're likely no longer reliable when speaking about the big picture.

It's a well known logical fallacy. Are you protecting yourself from making this mistake?

[jadis]

Political claims like "women should have the right to vote" and "gay people should have the right to marry who they want"? Those do impact society and there was and is plenty of opposition to them.

Changing your gender is not impossible just because you think it is. We're not transitioning to impress you.

The facile cliché that the trans thing is a civil rights issue on par with women's rights and gay rights is just that.

Being a woman is the biological reality of 51 percent of the population. Being gay or lesbian are sexual orientations. Being trans is an identity. There's a world of difference.

[jadis]

@jadis You know, you explain what the world is like, but I find it a little difficult to believe at face value.

You're an academic and an intelligent guy. Surely, you must be aware that the twitter accounts that are feeding you information are not actually giving you a nuanced view of what goes on in the real world. Instead, they're cherry picking. They ignore happy trans stories, instead only serving you "good shit" about transpeople groping prison guards and pooping in cars. When those cherry picked bits of information come to inform your perception of the whole world, you're likely no longer reliable when speaking about the big picture.

It's a well known logical fallacy. Are you protecting yourself from making this mistake?

Well-meaning and not particularly knowledgeable and thus tacitly assuming others know even less: the usual Tore alright.

I spent years on north American campuses, where the trans issue is all the rage and have had trans students, colleagues and even a close friend. I know older trans people in Montreal, who transitioned decades before the current craze (and are typically very critical of it). Not least, I actually read academic gender theory, both because it can be fascinating in its own right and a significant proportion of its followers adopt Foucauldian language or are in some kind of dialogue with Foucault.

I do enjoy spicy stories about trans cuties wilding out and thus I follow a couple of Twitter accounts that aggregate both social media posts by actual trans people and the odd tabloid story, but it doesn't mean I think all trans people are anything like those monsters. I'm sure most are as inoffensive as Mrs. Waffles. That doesn't change the larger point that men should not be in single-sex spaces designated for women. 

You're accepting activist slogans without giving them a second thought. When we use the same word to designate the motivations for transitioning of these charmers (please watch this video till the end. It doesn't represent all trans people, just a very distinct subset) and of a 13 year old girl uncomfortable with her body... you should start wondering whether we need to become more critical of the language instead of bundling a range of different things under the umbrella of "dysphoria." 

[Lexi Darling]

The facile cliché that the trans thing is a civil rights issue on par with women's rights and gay rights is just that.

Being a woman is the biological reality of 51 percent of the population. Being gay or lesbian are sexual orientations. Being trans is an identity. There's a world of difference.

Is the brain not considered part of biology? And please explain to me how gay rights are a legitimate cause but trans rights are not.

I'd also like to let everyone know that the site Jadis linked is a "free speech" video hosting site that is a popular destination for far right videos that would be banned on the real Youtube for hate speech. So keep in mind exactly where the video's spin is coming from.

And you do realize that your rhetoric hurts all trans people, right? Not just the "monsters"? I'm glad you think I am "inoffensive" but whether it is your intention or not, you are parroting the same talking points that are leading to politicians and even individual clinics (such as mine) attempting to ban gender-affirming care, and not just for minors.