Jan 04, 2025, 05:20 PM Last Edit: Jan 04, 2025, 06:31 PM by Trollheart

Has the sun set on two of the mightiest footballing powers of the last thirty years?

Before I was interested in football (I used to hate it) I could never understand why everyone - bar their supporters - hated Manchester United. No matter who they followed, everyone who wasn't a fan was part of what was colloquially known as the ABU, a non-existent reverse fan club which took the position that its "members" would support "Anyone But United". So if you were, for instance, a rabid fan of Everton and you hated Liverpool, and Liverpool were playing United, you'd still support Liverpool rather than the Manchester team. ABU, right?

But I didn't understand this. I could not comprehend the level of animosity and, let's say it, hatred towards one particular football team by the fans of every other one. Of course, once I got into football it became clear. In 1990, Ireland qualified for the World Cup for the first time ever, and rather than be left out of the conversations and discussion that would take over the office as the tournament progressed, and wanting, after all, like most of us I guess, to be part of something bigger than myself, I started watching the matches and soon found that, surprising myself, I really enjoyed it.

Once in, then, I saw how arrogant and brash Man United were, how they seemed to think every title and cup was their God-given right, and worse, how their fans behaved towards the supporters of other teams. I very quickly developed my own hatred for the Red Devils, and cursed names such as Cantona and Keane (never mind that the latter was an Irishman and also played for us internationally), Scholes and Bruce, and for their curmudgeonly manager, Alex Ferguson, who seemed to have the golden touch.

From as far back as the 1950s Man United had shown their superiority, but that lasted only until 1968, after which they fell into something of a slump until the years reversed and became 1986, when Ferguson led them to a total domination of English and European football which lasted well into the 21st century. Once he retired though, things began to go badly downhill, as we will see.
                             

For Manchester City, the "blue half" of the city, and fierce rivals of United, it was an entirely different story, almost the reverse. They had limited success in the 1960s and 1970s too, but only won the one league title (the Premier League then known as the First Division) as well as FA Cups and other trophies, but their decline was a far longer period than was that of the team they share the city with. In fact, during the time I got into football, Man City were very much seen as "the annoying younger kid brother" who hung around and got in the way. United never saw them as any sort of a threat, and they were rarely in the top flight at all. When they were, they usually did poorly.

It was only in 2008*, with Arab backing, and the appointment of Pep Guardiola in 2016*, that Manchester City ceased to become a joke, began to look like a real force in first English and then European football, and finally, over a twenty-year period, superseded and eclipsed Manchester United as the premier team from that city, and then from any city. Suddenly, the positions were reversed, as a Ferguson-less United found it really hard to turn on the style and went through many managers, none of whom seemed to gell, while City under their new manager went on to win everything in sight.

In recent months though, while United have continued to struggle, seemingly unstoppable City have hit not only a bump, but a real wall as their form has stuttered, stumbled and now seems to have been completely derailed. Their performance in Europe has been nothing short of dire, and whereas they should have been expecting to prepare to defend their seventh Premier league title, they now look likely to be struggling to even remain in the top half of the table, as Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and, um, Nottingham Forest make it a four-horse race, the ex-Champions forgotten and left behind in their dust.

So what has happened? How have we got to this pass? How did one team, who used to bestride English football - and European too - like a colossus, fade so badly and become a shadow of themselves, with fans booing them off the pitch and Old Trafford bearing shocked witness to the unprecedented sight of supporters streaming out in disgust long before the match was over? And how did a team which, having risen as it were from the ashes and dragged themselves back from the very depths of the lowest tier in English league football, with the world at their feet, trip and have such a calamitous fall from grace?

To answer these questions, we will need to take a look into the history behind both clubs, the intense rivalry between the "blue" and "red" halves of the city, the strides they made in the past and the mistakes they have also made, the players bought, the players sold, the fans, changes of management, changes in ownership and at board level, and any other aspects of the teams that have contributed to the never before thought of situation of Manchester losing its status as the top footballing power in English football.

* Corrections with thanks to our resident football guru, @jimmy jazz :thumb:



QuoteIt was only in 2001, with the appointment of Pep Guardiola and Arab backing, that Manchester City ceased to become a joke, began to look like a real force in first English and then European football, and finally, over a twenty-year period, superseded and eclipsed Manchester United as the premier team from that city, and then from any city.

They were taken over in 2008, and Guardiola was appointed in 2016.

QuoteAnd how did a team which, having risen as it were from the ashes and dragged themselves back from the very depths of the lowest tier in English league football, with the world at their feet, trip and have such a calamitous fall from grace?

They didn't drag themselves back (and they were never in the lowest tier), Abu Dhabi bankrolled it using a bottomless pit of money, artificially inflated sponsorships, false accounting and got charged 130 times by the PL for it. Since the hearing began, the teams performance on the pitch has dipped dramatically, as if everyone at the club knows something is coming. In short, they know they're fucked.

Quote from: Toy Revolver on May 10, 2023, 11:14 PMdo y'all think it's wrong to jerk off a dog



I: The Busby Babes: Rise of the Red Devils

Like most Football League clubs, Manchester United can trace their beginnings back to the late nineteenth century, when football was just starting to gain popularity. If you read my FA Cup write-ups, you'll have seen that this was a time of intense interest in football, much of it springing from cricket clubs (who presumably could only play in the summer, since they relied on the English weather) and most of even the smallest clubs were formed around this time. Often, this meant little more than a bunch of guys getting together with an idea, seeking some backing, and securing a place to play. On other occasions, as mentioned above, football clubs sprung from cricket ones, as a means of allowing that county or area to have sports during the rainier seasons. Some of these clubs were part of young mens' associations, workingmen's clubs or even schools and churches, but all had the same, if you'll forgive the pun, goal: to put their area on the map by creating a football club to compete in the many and varied regional leagues springing up around that time.

In Manchester United's case, it was a railway company that gave birth to the embryonic team that would go on to dominate English football for decades. In 1878, the Carriage and Wagon Department of the Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway depot at Newton Heath, almost three miles outside of the city of Manchester, decided they fancied forming a football club. They called themselves, not surprisingly, Newton Heath LYR (for Lancashire Yorkshire Railway) and played their first game against Bolton Wanderers reserve team. It was not an indication of the later greatness they were to achieve, as they lost 6-0. Nevertheless, when the Football League was founded in 1888, Newton Heath transferred there from the Football Alliance, taking their place in what was then the First Division. They had a hard time though, and after two seasons found themselves relegated to the Second Division. By now they were just Newton Heath, and had moved to a new ground.

Like, it seems, almost every football club in the late nineteenth to very early twentieth century, Newton Heath narrowly avoided being wound-up, and with investment from four businessmen changed its name to, you guessed it, Manchester United. So really you would have to say the club as it is today is really only around since 1902. Under this new name and with financial security assured, the new club quickly rose out of the Second Division, even winning their first ever First Division title in 1911, a year after moving again, this time to the stadium that would remain their home till this day, Old Trafford.

Their initial glory was fleeting though, and between 1922 and 1945 the team bounced from division to division, being relegated then promoted, until Matt Busby took charge just after the war. Though it would take another seven years, Busby would take Manchester United to the top again, after which they would enter a fallow period during which the world of English football was at their feet. They won back-to-back league titles in 1956 and 1957, becoming that same year the first ever English football club to compete in Europe. Because of the youth of the team members, the squad earned the nickname "The Busby Babes", but this epithet was to have horrific significance only two years into their dominance.

On February 6 1958 the plane carrying the team, its officials and also some reporters crashed on take-off from Munich Airport, killing 23 people, 8 of whom were players. It was, at the time, Manchester United's darkest day, and that of football too. Busby rebuilt the squad, and with people like Denis Law and future legends George Best and Bobby Charlton, Man United went on to win the FA Cup in 1963, the league twice in  1966 and 1967, and became the first English team to win the European Cup in 1968.

The 1970s saw Man United fall from grace, being relegated and losing their star players, as well as the manager who had masterminded their rise. In a situation which would be repeated twenty years later, Busby seemed irreplaceable, and every manager after him failed to revive United's flagging fortunes. Until the manager of Aberdeen left his post to come and take charge of the team, and in 1986 Alex Ferguson became manager of Manchester United, a job he would retain for almost thirty years, easily the longest-serving manager with the same club. His impact was not immediate, but results began to improve, and by the close of 1987 United were second in the league, finishing just behind eventual winners Liverpool.

1992 and 1993 were turning points for the club, signing future legends Ryan Giggs, Dion Dublin, Peter Schmeichel and Eric Cantona, and by the close of the 1992/93 season they were champions, a position they would occupy for most of the following twenty years.



Quote from: jimmy jazz on Jan 04, 2025, 06:02 PMThey were taken over in 2008, and Guardiola was appointed in 2016.
Oops! My mistake. That's what happens when you research two football teams at the same time!  :laughing:
QuoteThey didn't drag themselves back (and they were never in the lowest tier), Abu Dhabi bankrolled it using a bottomless pit of money, artificially inflated sponsorships, false accounting and got charged 130 times by the PL for it. Since the hearing began, the teams performance on the pitch has dipped dramatically, as if everyone at the club knows something is coming. In short, they know they're fucked.
I'll address all this, plus any necessary corrections, as I go along. I'm sure I read they were in the third division, but I'll bow to your superior football knowledge. For now.




II: Better dead than red: Once in a blue moon

The origins of Manchester United's bitter rivals from the same city are somewhat shrouded in mystery, but they do seem to be rooted in a perhaps more violent past. During the later years of the nineteenth century, Manchester was subject to a lot of unemployment - perhaps as the Industrial Revolution took hold and men began to be replaced by machines - and young men with nothing better to do passed their time organising huge mass fights called "scuttles". As ever, the Church frowned upon this (though in fairness, you'd have to say, this time with good reason) and one rector tried to get the lads to channel their energies into more productive channels, through the local cricket, and later, football club. The team took their name from the rector's church - St. Mark's - and began initially playing other church teams, later changing their name to Gorton Association F.C., - Gorton being the name of the area wherein the church was located - and like Manchester United as Newton Heath, slowly losing their connection with the church as they metamorphosed into a proper football team.

The two teams came up against each other in 1886, with Newton Heath beating them in a horrendous 11-1 defeat in the FA Cup, quite possibly setting up a rivalry that endures to this day. The next year they moved to a new ground near a railway viaduct at Ardwick (perhaps unconsciously imitating the Newton Heathers, who had, you remember, been formed by the staff of a railway carriage office) and became known as Ardwick AFC; at this point, they became a professional football club. In 1889 the two teams put aside their nascent rivalry to play a friendly in support of a charity to raise funds for the victims of a local mine explosion, and in 1891 Ardwick beat Newton Heath 1-0 in the Manchester Cup, securing their place in the Football League.

1893 saw the club go through some serious financial difficulties, which necessitated the dissolution of Ardwick AFC, to reform the next year as Manchester City F.C. This then means that they were the first of the two Manchester clubs to adopt the name they still play under, as United only changed their name in 1902. It's also possible - these are all only guesses - that United (then still Newton Heath) took umbrage at ex-Ardwick's claiming of their city's name (although they came from outside of Manchester itself, as already noted), since they, United, had been formed first, even if there were only two years between them. Whatever the reason, it seems that the blue/red division the city now lives under, and has done for well over forty years, is not a new one, and could be said to stretch all the way back to the formation of both clubs.

City became the first of the two teams to win the FA Cup, in 1904, almost adding a league title in the same year but falling short. United would have to wait another five years before they would lift the trophy. But history repeats itself, it would seem, and the next year City were embroiled in allegations of match-fixing and breaking Football League rules regarding players' salaries. Ah, Pep! Sound familiar? The League took a dim view of this, though given this was over a century ago now, the figures seem piddling in comparison to the ones being dealt with now - players should be paid no more than four pounds a week, and Manchester City brazenly paid a staggering ten! Outrageous! :laughing:  All in the context of the time, of course: a mere ten years prior, City had secured their new football ground for the eye-watering rental of twenty pounds a year! Retribution for breaking the sacred rules was swift. The manager was banned from football for life and most of the players fined and banned from playing for the next year. City could have collapsed, and indeed they had to sell off some of their best players in order to meet the fines, and who was waiting to snap them up? Given that United then won the league thanks to these ex-City players, the reasons for that lifelong rivalry just keep stacking up, don't they?

Manchester City seemed to have some pretty bad luck in the early days, and while I of course can't say it was the case, I do have to wonder. Having had the honour of a royal visit from His Majesty King George V, City found their stadium the victim of a fire, caused, it is said, by a dropped cigarette butt. I see no accusation against, or allegations to same, but I entertain the - perhaps fanciful - notion that one or more supporters of Man United, stung at being passed over for royal approval, as it were, and jealous of the prestige City would have gained from having had the royal arse sitting on their seats, may have popped down the road to Ardwick for a quick smoke.

In any event, the stadium was unusable, and no doubt relishing the prospect of their rival club being homeless, United made sure plans to share Old Trafford with them were scuppered byy charging City exorbitant rent. I'm sure they had no intention of sharing their ground with their enemy, and anyway, surely the sight of those players United had snapped up when City had to sell them off, training at Old Trafford now for United, would have been a further burr under City's saddle? So in the end repairs were carried out at Hyde Road and Manchester City remained there for another three years.



@Trollheart yes they were in the Third Division but there are four tiers in the football league system. At the time, the Fourth Division would have been the lowest tier. Today it's known as League Two.

It is confusing, I know.

Quote from: Toy Revolver on May 10, 2023, 11:14 PMdo y'all think it's wrong to jerk off a dog

Right, right. Gotcha. What we think of as the Third Division now is actually the second, with the Championship being the first. Yes, it is confusing. Fun to research though. Learning a lot. I've credited you for the corrections I've made in the OP by the way. Glad to have you along for the ride.


Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 04, 2025, 06:43 PMRight, right. Gotcha. What we think of as the Third Division now is actually the second, with the Championship being the first. Yes, it is confusing. Fun to research though. Learning a lot. I've credited you for the corrections I've made in the OP by the way. Glad to have you along for the ride.

Cheers Big T. Would it be asking too much to correct Manchester City's name to 'Cheating Cunts'?  :)

Quote from: Toy Revolver on May 10, 2023, 11:14 PMdo y'all think it's wrong to jerk off a dog

I can see it now: two of the biggest clubs in English football - Cheating Cunts and Arrogant Bastards!  :laughing:



III: Glory, Glory, Man United: Europe At Their Feet

Perhaps it's ironic that Manchester United would gain their greatest victories and become a - for a long time, the - footballing power in England with a Scotsman at the helm, but things changed radically when Alex Ferguson was persuaded to leave his managerial position at Aberdeen and come south to take over the then-struggling club. His impact was almost immediate: he took over the club on November 6 1986, and though they lost their first match they quickly began to see results, and only seven weeks later beat the mighty Liverpool at home, the only time Anfield had seen a defeat that season. There was, probably, talk of Ferguson being the natural successor to Sir Matt, but nobody could, I imagine, have predicted how far the new manager would eclipse even United's beloved ex-boss's record. It's fair to say that under Ferguson, few teams could stop the new United, and even if they lost matches, the ratio of wins to losses was always in their favour. They would become the darlings of Europe, winning cup after cup and title after title, and were always either Premier League champions or runners-up. For a long time - a very long time - Manchester United were the kings of English football, and princes of Europe.

However, that road would not be smooth or straight, and after some bad results and a failed takeover bid, Manchester United were staring relegation in the face at the end of the 1989/90 season, and a mere three years after taking the job, Ferguson was rumoured to be facing dismissal (though the Board denied it, but then they always do, until the announcement), his job only saved when United won the FA Cup, beating Crystal Palace in a replay after a hard-fought 3-3 draw. Nevertheless, United finished a poor 13th in the league, looking up enviously at a victorious Liverpool side who had just made it a record 18th title win.

United had success in Europe though that year, beating the mighty Barcelona to take the Cup Winners Cup, becoming the first English team to compete and win in Europe since the Heysel tragedy which had led to the banning of all English teams from Europe. Let's quickly look into that, for those who don't know what it was.





Backs to the Wall: Red menace at Heysel
An End to English Football in Europe (1985 - 1990)


On May 29 1985, in a game between Juventus and Liverpool at the Heysel Stadium in Brussels, angry Liverpool fans began taunting and then throwing objects across the divide between them and the Italians. The Juventus supporters, running from the vengeful Englishmen, ran up against a wall and some were crushed against it as the Liverpool supporters surged forward. The wall, which had failed safety checks before the match but about which nothing had been done, eventually collapsed, and in all 39 people died. 14 Liverpool fans were later tried and found guilty of manslaughter, and sentenced to prison, while all English clubs were banned for five years from any European football match, Liverpool's ban extended by one year. It was a dark, dark day for football.

Further reading tells me the stadium, which was at the time the Belgian national one, was 55 years old at the time, and so badly maintained that parts of it were literally crumbling away. Arsenal, who had played there three years previously, described it rather succinctly, but accurately, as a "dump", and Liverpool fans who had not got tickets for the match were easily able to kick holes in the cinder block wall to get in. Both Juventus and Liverpool had asked UEFA to move the venue, but after a quick half-hour check, the governing European football body had shrugged and said, fuck it it will do. So they too have their part to shoulder in the blame.

Nevertheless, it can't be denied that no matter how shitty a stadium it may have been, the catalyst for the attack that led to the deaths of so many people was what used to be called football hooliganism. I can't say for sure if these were true Liverpool fans who went on the attack, or agents provocateur such as far-right groups like The National Front or Combat 18, who were known to infiltrate supporters clubs and go to matches just to cause trouble and foment violence, but there is just simply no excuse for behaviour like that, and it's right that those who took part were imprisoned. Because of the disaster, all English clubs were banned from playing in Europe for 5 years.



You can see then why not only being the first English team to get back into Europe, but also the first to win a trophy, was a huge feather in Manchester United's cap. Beating the legendary Barcelona, who had won the cup so many times they were almost its owners - three times since 1978, and this was their defence of the 1989/90 title - only made it all the sweeter, and despite the general resentment and hatred for United simmering in England at the time, and which would grow to outright antagonism between them and most other English clubs, or at least their fans, every English person must have swollen with pride to have known that one of their teams had beaten the pride of Spain.

1991 also saw the signing of a player who would become synonymous with the rise of Manchester United, the 21-year-old Ryan Giggs, who along with Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes, Bryan Robson and Danish goalkeeper Peter Schmeichel would form the core of the team that would dominate English - and European - football for over a decade. The floatation of the club on the stock exchange and its net worth of over £18 million showed that Manchester United had ceased to become just a football club, and was beginning its journey towards being a worldwide brand and a true flourishing business. With success still eluding them though as they tried to unseat a rampant Leeds United from the top spot, Manchester United began hatching plans to steal their top striker, a move that would end up being one of the smartest ones Ferguson had ever made. Sacre bleu!



Giggs was an academy product mate, joined them in 1987. Ironically from Man Citys academy. Fergie went round to the Giggs household on the day of his 14th birthday and got him to sign schoolboy terms.

Giggs also represented England as a schoolboy. And was known as Ryan Wilson before Giggs. Changed his name because he doesn't like his dad. There is footage of him on YouTube as a youth and he was lightning quick. Fucking rapid and stood out a mile compared to the others his age.

Quote from: Toy Revolver on May 10, 2023, 11:14 PMdo y'all think it's wrong to jerk off a dog

Fair enough. I'm getting my information as usual from Wiki, which says "New to the United squad for the 1991–92 season were goalkeeper Peter Schmeichel and defender Paul Parker, but the big news of the season was the breakthrough of teenage winger Ryan Giggs, who had made his debut the previous season and played in most of United's games in 1991–92."

All of which only goes to prove that I don't read as well as I should. Ah well, fuck it: it's only United!  :laughing: Good to have you here to set me straight when I get something wrong about footy though! :thumb:



IV: Noisy Neighbours: City on the edge of forever

The path their Manchester rivals would take through the leagues was about as divergent as you could imagine. Manchester City were always seen as the underdogs between the two, with Ferguson later dismissing their almost non-existent (at the time) threat to them as being their "noisy neighbours", the implication being, I guess, that City made a lot of noise but achieved nothing, or, as the Bard once put it, they were a team full of "sound and fury, signifying nothing." And it was true. But Manchester City had started off the twentieth century flying, and it could have originally have been so much different for them.

Already with the royal seal of approval, as detailed earlier, City in fact featured a player who would go on not only to manage their bitter rivals, but who would become a legend in United's history, Matt Busby. They finished third in the league in the 1929/30 season and got to the semi-finals of the next three FA Cups, unable to win it, but the only English team to be in the semi-finals three years in a row. In 1934 their dogged persistence paid off as they lifted the FA Cup for the first time, having beaten Portsmouth 2-1. Three years later they were champions of the then First Division (which would later become the Premier League) for the first time. Somewhat unbelievably though, the very next season they were relegated, the only team in England to be relegated as champions, an uneasy record they still hold to this day.

This really odd turnaround would not be the only time City seemed to fall at the first fence, do things the hard way, or lose to opposition they should easily beat, a phenomenon that came to be known as "City-itis" or "Typical City Syndrome". It would, in all likelihood, be the reason City would have such a tumultuous time in the league, and why, for a long time, they were seen very much as the second Manchester club. Perhaps as part of this, City courted serious controversy when, just after the end of the war, they signed a confessed Nazi, Bert Trautmann, as their goalkeeper. The signing prompted demonstrations, but Trautmann, having changed his views on both English and Jews after his unexpectedly honorable treatment in a POW camp, made himself indispensable to the team and soon won the hearts of the City faithful. He was brave, skilled and energetic, and became recognised by the end of his career as one of the greatest keepers of all time.

Trautmann would play a crucial part in Manchester City's next FA Cup victory, which took place in 1956. With 17 minutes of the match to go, and City up 3-1 against Birmingham City, one of the opposition players collided with the keeper as he tried to save (and succeeded) but his neck was in fact broken, a fact Trautmann was not aware of - though the pain he was in would seem to have told him something at least was wrong. He had been stunned into unconsciousness, and the referee stopped the match to allow urgent treatment. This was before substitutions were allowed, so if Trautmann had to go off he could not be replaced. Despite attempts by the management to have another player take his place, Trautmann insisted on remaining in the goal.

He had not an easy time of it. Though his defenders did all they could to keep the ball from being in a position where he would have to save it, kicking it long and into the stands whenever they could, twice before the end of the match two Birmingham players did get through the defence, and the German had to save the ball, an action that exacerbated his agony and knocked him unconscious again. Despite all this, he completed the match, and was able to - with considerable difficulty - mount the steps to receive his winners' medal, to a chorus of "For He's a Jolly Good Fellow" from the supporters. If nothing else, this incident of incredible bravery and determination, and dedication to the club, cemented Bert Trautmann's place in Manchester City history.

This FA Cup victory was, however, the only bright spot in a very dark time for the club. In 1963 they had been relegated to the second division, attendances had dropped from a high of over 80,000 to a tenth of that but with the appointment of Joe Mercer and Malcolm Allison as manager and assistant coach, they soon climbed out of the second division and won promotion at the first try. I also find it amusing how things have changed in football in terms of what's allowed and what's not. I read that in the 1967/68 season at one match two players from opposite sides traded punches on the field, but neither were sent off or even carded. Wouldn't happen today: even raise your hand to a player, even one on your own team (hello Newcastle) and you're likely to be taking, as they say, the early bath.

City were champions again in 1968, beating the then league leaders and their fierce rivals Manchester United 3-1, then on the final day of the season, with victory sealing the title for either, United were at home to Sunderland, bottom of the division, while City took on Newcastle away. After a hard-won match City took the title, no doubt to the fury of United. City went on to again win the FA Cup in 1969 but began to struggle in the First Division, losing ground though the following year they did the League Cup double, winning both the Cup Winners Cup and the Football League Cup, but while they were favourites to win the division in 1971/72, the old City-itis struck again and they began a run of bad results, which ended with them finishing fourth. With the departure of Mercer that year the club went into something of a tailspin.

They just survived relegation the next season, only avoiding being the only team in English football to be relegated twice, having been champions, though they did get their revenge as, as the 1973/74 season came to a close, they beat Man United to send them down and survived themselves, if only barely. I'm sure you could hear the grinding of teeth and the curses raging around Old Trafford! The next years were good, as in 1977 City just barely missed out on the title, beaten to it by Liverpool by a single point, but then City slipped into something of a decline. The 1980s featured a bounce between first and second division as the team were relegated, promoted, relegated, promoted, but seemed to have no chance of ever achieving the glory of being in a top position again, never mind winning the title. A series of managers coming and going did not help matters, and despite a glorious thrashing of their rivals in a 5-1 defeat in 1990, a result which Alex Ferguson described as "embarrassing", City would not see real success again until almost the new century.