Trump Redux: The Death of Democracy, or Overblown Hyperbole?

[jimmy jazz]

You obviously don't know the intricacies and only think there are two sides.

OK but you are pretty tribal yourself mate. You wouldn't have the reaction you did if you weren't.

[DJChameleon]

OK but you are pretty tribal yourself mate. You wouldn't have the reaction you did if you weren't.

You are consistently attacking me based off of assumptions. I'm just a reactionary person.

[Jwb]

Totally agree. I was going to say something similar but I stopped myself.

There was a Tory voter who ended up turning on the Tories when they cut working tax credits and it affected her and she had a go at a Tory politician on Question Time (UK politics talk show). She got a lot of abuse and hatred online. If you want people to come over to your way of thinking then that isn't the way to go about things.

You lost. You need to convince people you're right and they're wrong. If you want to continue losing elections then carry on.

If nobody kills Elon Musk then we deserve to be his slaves.  It really is that simple.

Like honestly it's all well and good to lecture DJ about what it takes to win an election,  but is that how the Republicans win? Do they win by having super nuanced, reserved rhetoric, or do they win by shamelessly lying and by going for the throat? So why exactly is it again that we can't take pleasure in the suffering of our enemies? The sensibilities you are appealing to in order to tell us not to are the same sensibilities that were just defeated by MAGA in the last election.

[jimmy jazz]

You are consistently attacking me based off of assumptions. I'm just a reactionary person.

How is what I said an attack? 

If nobody kills Elon Musk then we deserve to be his slaves.  It really is that simple.

Like honestly it's all well and good to lecture DJ about what it takes to win an election,  but is that how the Republicans win? Do they win by having super nuanced, reserved rhetoric, or do they win by shamelessly lying and by going for the throat? So why exactly is it again that we can't take pleasure in the suffering of our enemies? The sensibilities you are appealing to in order to tell us not to are the same sensibilities that were just defeated by MAGA in the last election.

It's probably at least partly what it will take for Dems to win next time yes.

[Jwb]

What is? I'm not sure what you are saying.

[Auroras In Ice]

Why do people still cling to this bogus framing that MAGA gives the slightest fuck about democracy, rationality, reason or has any interest in acting in good faith? Especially now with everything going on. Who the fuck voted for Elon?

We've seen how they handle it when their guy does lose an election...




Also, to the extent that elections will even matter much moving forward it's wise to keep in mind that MAGA isn't some incredible electoral juggernaut. They won the general in 2016 and then proceeded to lose or drastically underperform in every midterm and general election cycle (even with the insane GOP gerrymandering etc.) until 2024 where Trump's margin of victory was only around 1.5% of the popular vote. Much as I loathe them too, the Dems do win fairly reliably when they drive their own base out to vote, not when they try to coddle MAGA's little fascist balls. In fact, when they do try to appeal to right-wingers while alienating large swaths of their own base in the process... that's when they do lose.

I'm all for leaving off-ramps for MAGA as things get worse and worse, but make no mistake... this is a movement that must be defeated and ground into dust.

[jimmy jazz]

Why do people still cling to this bogus framing that MAGA gives the slightest fuck about democracy, rationality, reason or has any interest in acting in good faith?

Who has said that?

[Auroras In Ice]

Do I really need to dignify that question?

[jimmy jazz]

Do I really need to dignify that question?

Yes. I'm assuming it was aimed at me.

[SGR]

Like honestly it's all well and good to lecture DJ about what it takes to win an election,  but is that how the Republicans win? Do they win by having super nuanced, reserved rhetoric, or do they win by shamelessly lying and by going for the throat?

I'm sure we've discussed this to some degree before, and I was actually talking about this with a colleague recently. Remember in 2016, after Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia died, and then Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell completely stonewalled any and all attempts of Obama/Democrats to nominate Merrick Garland to the court?

There was no precedent for such an action since the period around the Civil War and Reconstruction. No Democratic president had made an appointment while Republicans held the Senate since 1895.

In a speech that August in Kentucky, McConnell would say: "One of my proudest moments was when I looked Barack Obama in the eye and I said, 'Mr. President, you will not fill the Supreme Court vacancy.' "

McConnell was not alone. The 11 Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee signed a letter saying they had no intention of consenting to any nominee from Obama. No proceedings of any kind were held on Garland's appointment.

Mitch made the argument that the American people should decide the future of the court in the coming general election (in 9 months). But what happened when Ruth Bader Ginsburg (who should have stepped down) died with less than 2 months til the general election in 2020? Republicans (admittedly with a Senate majority) successfully nominated and pushed through Amy Coney Barret, to buttress the conservative majority to 6-3, before the general election took place (which Biden/Democrats would subsequently win).

Democrats, as we saw in the past election, too often defer to decorum, institutions (democracy), and 'good' political etiquette when they have the levers of power, and often times, that's why they lose. Playing it too safe. And based on the past month, they still look anemic and directionless. Back in late December, House Dems voted for 74 yr old Gerry Connolly to lead the House Oversight Committee over AOC, so looks like they don't have any plans to move on from out of touch geriatric leadership yet. AOC does something extremely well that Trump also does that most Democrats don't seem to know how to do: command attention and drive a message.

[Jwb]

Yes we've talked about all of this.  I don't have much to add to that but I think you know my thoughts.

I'm also not even saying that like mocking some MAGA family for losing their family farm is going to help the Democrats win the next election.  But I think it's probably irrelevant, and the sort of constant self flagellation over various narratives of "why we lost the election" is a lot of hot air and virtue signalling. Good behavior is not rewarded, and karma is a lie.  Sorry.

[Lucem Ferre]

Why do people still cling to this bogus framing that MAGA gives the slightest fuck about democracy, rationality, reason or has any interest in acting in good faith? Especially now with everything going on. Who the fuck voted for Elon?

We've seen how they handle it when their guy does lose an election...




Also, to the extent that elections will even matter much moving forward it's wise to keep in mind that MAGA isn't some incredible electoral juggernaut. They won the general in 2016 and then proceeded to lose or drastically underperform in every midterm and general election cycle (even with the insane GOP gerrymandering etc.) until 2024 where Trump's margin of victory was only around 1.5% of the popular vote. Much as I loathe them too, the Dems do win fairly reliably when they drive their own base out to vote, not when they try to coddle MAGA's little fascist balls. In fact, when they do try to appeal to right-wingers while alienating large swaths of their own base in the process... that's when they do lose.

I'm all for leaving off-ramps for MAGA as things get worse and worse, but make no mistake... this is a movement that must be defeated and ground into dust.

Not everybody that voted Trump is Maga.

I don't think you guys realize that half of America can't even read above a 5th grade level.


I'm as petty as they come, and sure, I'll laugh at a Maga guy losing SNAP but that still sucks.

Reactionary hate is easy.

Love, empathy, forgiveness and tolerance is hard & it's revolutionary.

Unless it's a cop. Fuck the popo.

[Jwb]

Not everybody that voted Trump is Maga.

I don't think you guys realize that half of America can't even read above a 5th grade level.

I hate illiterate swing voters  more than I hate MAGA.  They are not fit to be voting in the first place. 

I'm as petty as they come, and sure, I'll laugh at a Maga guy losing SNAP but that still sucks.

Reactionary hate is easy.

Love, empathy, forgiveness and tolerance is hard & it's revolutionary.

Unless it's a cop. Fuck the popo.

Well it seems like the alternative to them suffering is actually just to reinforce the impression that they did the right thing by voting for Trump.  So it makes sense to want them to feel the pain,  as a corrective measure.  It's just a bit of tough love. 

Remember that, MAGA.  When I laugh upon hearing the news that you lost the farm that was in your family's possession for generations because you bet it all on the great white hope,  it's only out of love. <3

[Lucem Ferre]

It's just hard to convince people to join your movement when you laugh in their face when they lose their farm. That pushes people to vote in spite of you.

Organizing in a way to show support for people losing their farms shows that you do actually have their best interests at heart and they will remember that.

Edit: They will lose their farms regardless of how you react to it.

[Lexi Darling]

US government 'asking Romania to lift restrictions on Andrew Tate'

The party of rapists, for rapists just can't stop telling us all exactly what they are.