Everything Ireland thread

[Trollheart]

Not yet. My sister has seen it and recommended it, and I personally like anything to do with the Troubles, so I have downloaded it and it's, um, somewhere in the queue, back that way, maybe you might just be able to see it right there at the back if you squint? Got so much to watch, both on the Sky Q Box and my PC, but I do intend to get to it.

[jimmy jazz]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2qq2n3800o

A member of Irish language hip-hop group Kneecap has been charged with a terror offence.

Liam O'Hanna, aged 27 from Belfast, has been charged after allegedly displaying a flag in support of Hezbollah, a proscribed organisation, the Metropolitan Police has said.

It relates to an incident on 21 November 2024 at the O2 Forum in Kentish Town, London.

Mr O'Hanna, who performs under the name Mo Chara, is due to appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court on Wednesday 18 June.

Officers from the Met's counter terrorism command were made aware on 22 April of an online video from the event.

An investigation was carried out, which led to the Crown Prosecution Service authorising charge.

Earlier this month, the Met said it would investigate online videos allegedly showing the group calling for the death of British MPs and shouting "up Hamas, up Hezbollah".

Both Hamas and Hezbollah are banned in the UK and it is a crime to express support for them.

[Trollheart]

Next we get "we don't recognise this court! We should be tried in Ireland!" Well, what the fuck did they expect?  It's all great fun till someone loses an eye.



Then it's hilarious!

[jimmy jazz]

Next we get "we don't recognise this court! We should be tried in Ireland!" Well, what the fuck did they expect?  It's all great fun till someone loses an eye.



Then it's hilarious!

That's a good point.

I'd say the split of the online nation is about 60/40 in favour of Kneecap from what I've seen BTW. They've got such a weird cult-like fan-base of bedroom activists.

I don't get it though.

The one thing that keeps being said is "the UK is complicit in genocide in Gaza and this is what their legal system is bothered about"... Well you can defend literally any crime using that logic. There is a genocide in Gaza so why have the CPS charged Russell Brand with rape? And so on. Pure whataboutery.

If you defend their right to fly Hezbollah flags then you should also defend their right to fly Swatikas but you just know that wouldn't be the case.

I'm fine with someone flying Swastikas being charged with terror offences and I'm also fine with this.

People aren't consistent.

[Trollheart]

They're just attention-seeking knobs. Simple as.

#Knobcap

[Buck_Mulligan]

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2qq2n3800o

UK citizens/subjects being charged in a UK court for a crime committed in the UK is probably more appropriate for the UK thread. Just to be consistent!!

[jimmy jazz]

UK citizens/subjects being charged in a UK court for a crime committed in the UK is probably more appropriate for the UK thread. Just to be consistent!!

They've already been discussed and posted on here before on this very thread so to be consistent I kept it to this thread.

Though I am fine with what you said. 

[Jwb]

That's a good point.

I'd say the split of the online nation is about 60/40 in favour of Kneecap from what I've seen BTW. They've got such a weird cult-like fan-base of bedroom activists.

I don't get it though.

The one thing that keeps being said is "the UK is complicit in genocide in Gaza and this is what their legal system is bothered about"... Well you can defend literally any crime using that logic. There is a genocide in Gaza so why have the CPS charged Russell Brand with rape? And so on. Pure whataboutery.

If you defend their right to fly Hezbollah flags then you should also defend their right to fly Swatikas but you just know that wouldn't be the case.

I'm fine with someone flying Swastikas being charged with terror offences and I'm also fine with this.

People aren't consistent.

the crime is having a flag?

*gears up for anti Europe pro free speech rant*

... oh wait. Fuck.

[jimmy jazz]

the crime is having a flag?

Lol, Europe is so cucked when it comes to free speech.

... oh wait. Fuck.

Well it's the flag of a banned terrorist organisation, they also shouted 'up Hamas, up Hezbollah' which is supporting them, the crime is supporting a terrorist organisation and they're also being investigated for calling for the deaths of MPs which is an incitement to violence (we have had two MPs murdered here in the past ten years so this should be taken very seriously).

If we just focus on the flag, and you think you should be able to wave any flag you like and not be prosecuted you have to include Nazi flags, ISIS flags and literally everything else. If you still think you shouldn't be prosecuted for that then fair enough.

[Jwb]

This is acceptable if they ban the Israeli flag too. Give me a good reason why Hezbollah shouldn't be allowed beyond resorting to the fact that they are designated terrorists by the state? It's fairly arbitrary and I don't see why Hezbollah would be particularly beyond the pale if Israel isn't. From a moral pov that is.

[Jwb]

Well it's the flag of a banned terrorist organisation, they also shouted 'up Hamas, up Hezbollah' which is supporting them, the crime is supporting a terrorist organisation and they're also being investigated for calling for the deaths of MPs which is an kncitement to violence (we have had two MPs murdered here in the past ten years so this should be taken very seriously).

If we just focus on the flag, and you think you should be able to wave any flag you like and not be prosecuted you have to include Nazi flags, ISIS flags and literally everything else. If you still think you shouldn't be prosecuted for that then fair enough.

Yes.  I think all flags should be allowed.  Are people allowed to express Nazi sentiment but not fly the flag? Or is the ideology in itself illegal to express?

Direct incitement to violence is different but I think the standard for meeting that threshold is relatively high in the States.  Kind of am antiquated idea at this point to be fair.  My initial post was actually meant to be a self deprecating joke about how we used to have a leg to stand on lecturing people in the UK about free speech, but now with what's going on here that seems pretty absurd to do.  You quoted me before I edited... I think the edited version makes my joke a bit more clear.

[jimmy jazz]

Yes.  I think all flags should be allowed.  Are people allowed to express Nazi sentiment but not fly the flag? Or is the ideology in itself illegal to express?

The ideology itself is illegal to express and show support for.

Loads of examples of groups who have been banned and prescribed as terrorist organisations and members sent to prison. National Action is probably the most well known one in recent times.

[Jwb]

I understand that, and if someone is giving material support to a state banned terrorist group then I can see why you would punish that.  But giving ideological support should not be illegal in my opinion.  It's impossible to actually allow for robust free speech especially with regard to politics, if you're not even allowed to say you support Hezbollah. I don't know how people can't see this. It completely kneecaps the whole Israel discussion in particular. 

Like you could theoretically support Hezbollah because you see them as a resistance group with a proven track record of driving Israel out of southern Lebanon back in the 80s and 90s.  Why would that be beyond the pale? You can disagree with it, but to forbid it as something you can openly express? Yeah, that's just called cucking out to the national security apparatus every time you dicuss one of their listed enemies. Call me crazy but I don't think that's even keeping anyone safe. It's just used as a bludgeon to weild against dissenting voices.

[Trollheart]

I understand that, and if someone is giving material support to a state banned terrorist group then I can see why you would punish that.  But giving ideological support should not be illegal in my opinion.  It's impossible to actually allow for robust free speech especially with regard to politics, if you're not even allowed to say you support Hezbollah. I don't know how people can't see this. It completely kneecaps the whole Israel discussion in particular. 

Like you could theoretically support Hezbollah because you see them as a resistance group with a proven track record of driving Israel out of southern Lebanon back in the 80s and 90s.  Why would that be beyond the pale? You can disagree with it, but to forbid it as something you can openly express? Yeah, that's just called cucking out to the national security apparatus every time you dicuss one of their listed enemies. Call me crazy but I don't think that's even keeping anyone safe. It's just used as a bludgeon to weild against dissenting voices.

I see what you did there! 
It's actually something similar here. Not technically illegal, but if anyone expresses support for the IRA - and a lot of celebs have, singing "Up the 'Ra!" - then it's deemed a real social faux pas and they have to apologise. This is, of course, because so many Irish people have had people taken by the IRA, be it from bombs, shootings, being, um, kneecapped or just "disappeared".

It's a bit two-faced though, as Irish trad groups have written and continue to play "rebel songs" which glorify the IRA and put down the "Brits", and nothing gets said. Seems to be a different and special deal for music, at least Irish traditional music.

[Jwb]

Well, the issue is, yeah terrorist groups have done bad things and killed a lot of people.  Israel has done far worse at this point, but with the veneer of legitimacy granted to a state.

The reason terrorist groups are treated so differently from actual states is because they pose an inherent threat to the states monopoly on force, not because they're in any way uniquely evil. 

I don't think anyone should be punished for supporting Israel, Russia, China, America... so why not Hezbollah? Again, without invoking that they're designated terrorists.  The premise that the state should make it illegal for you to lend ideological support to terrorist groups is the exact premise I'm questioning.  So you can't really appeal to that rule to answer my question.