Well sounds like a trans man was eager to participate in the most American sport of all, if you catch my drift... aka the most dangerous game...
Edit:
Admin's comment: This topic was split from the Trans Women in sports topic and relates to this incident: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/03/27/us/nashville-shooting-covenant-school
Quote from: jadis on Mar 28, 2023, 01:21 AMWell sounds like a trans man was eager to participate in the most American sport of all, if you catch my drift... aka the most dangerous game...
Can you please not refer to trans as man? You may not realise it but it's very disrespectful. Trans is a fine descriptor all on its own. They do not want to be reminded, and anyway the original news clip said it was a woman, assuming you're talking about the shooting.
Haha, jadis reluctantly enters the discussion and immediately gets reprimanded on trans jargon by TH of all people. Hilarous.
Also, TH, I'm no expert but i don't think there's any reason why a trans man would object to being called a man. You seem confused, my boomer friend.
Yeah pretty funny. I go out of my way to do an "offensive" post in the time honored fashion and he finds issue with me actually respecting the F to M shooter's pronouns. He also thought "queer" was a slur when like half the people in the humanities are doing queer theory and/or self-identifying as such
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsQIQIhWIBc8QjE?format=jpg&name=small)
Yeah hilarious. Laugh at me. You're making an inappropriate comment which offends in two ways: one, by calling a trans a man (when they were clearly shown to have identified as a woman, though trans should be enough anyway) and while I admit I'm no expert on it, I'm not so sure, say, Mrs. Waffles would enjoy being referred to as a trans man, though I could be wrong there. But secondly, you refer to a shooting as an American sport, which for me is a little beyond the pale, certainly on the day it happened.
But no, you go ahead and laugh at the thick Irishman. Maybe that will make you feel better about yourself, or allow you to ignore your pretty crass comment.
I'm not totally sure on the shooter's identity based on my limited research, but if the shooter refers to himself with he/him pronouns as in that pic, then calling him a trans man would be correct. Trans man generally refers to a "female to male" trans person, while trans woman would be like me, "male to female".
Also, just to let you know, it's not proper to say "a trans". I would just say trans man, trans woman, or trans person if you are unsure of their gender.
Hope that clarifies things! I'm always happy to provide any help I can.
Quote from: Trollheart on Mar 28, 2023, 01:11 PMYeah hilarious. Laugh at me. You're making an inappropriate comment which offends in two ways: one, by calling a trans a man (when they were clearly shown to have identified as a woman, though trans should be enough anyway) and while I admit I'm no expert on it, I'm not so sure, say, Mrs. Waffles would enjoy being referred to as a trans man, though I could be wrong there. But secondly, you refer to a shooting as an American sport, which for me is a little beyond the pale, certainly on the day it happened.
But no, you go ahead and laugh at the thick Irishman. Maybe that will make you feel better about yourself, or allow you to ignore your pretty crass comment.
it sounds like you don't understand that women transition into men as well
although i'm not sure and i'm definitely not trying to dis you
as for the shooter it seems their (setting on a neutral pronoun for now) assigned sex at birth and whatever else their deal is is still in dispute
i did read that up till this incident no female has ever shot up a school - there may be a case to be made for not acknowledging the transitional status as female if they were amab but i'll follow the lead from the trans community on that one
synth, i know you didn't volunteer to be teacher here but if i misuse the word "trans" please correct and i'll update my language
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 02:16 PMi did read that up till this incident no female has ever shot up a school
I thought that at first, when I heard news reports that the shooter was female, but then I remembered this incident which happened back in the 70's when I was in high school...
Cleveland Elementary School shooting (San Diego) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego))
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 02:16 PMsynth, i know you didn't volunteer to be teacher here but if i misuse the word "trans" please correct and i'll update my language
No problem! My only goal is helping everyone understand each other better, it is a pleasure to help educate to that end.
Take it easy Trolls. You won't put yourself in these situations if you don't insist on getting offended on behalf of groups of people you have only some very foggy notions about. Which is not your fault btw, we all have different circumstances in life. Let's just have good time on the internet, that's what we're here for
Regardless of the gender/orientation/identity of the person who committed the shooting, I'm guessing the end result will be the same as it always is.
Democrats will talk about gun control and the need to ban this or that type of firearm - while blaming Republicans for this happening
Republicans will talk about mental illness, SRIs, and arming the teachers - while blaming Democrats for this happening
And then after a week or so, we'll move on to whatever the next story is, do nothing at all to improve the situation, and then do the whole song and dance again when the next school shooting inevitably happens.
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Mar 28, 2023, 02:37 PMQuote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 02:16 PMi did read that up till this incident no female has ever shot up a school
I thought that at first, when I heard news reports that the shooter was female, but then I remembered this incident which happened back in the 70's when I was in high school...
Cleveland Elementary School shooting (San Diego) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleveland_Elementary_School_shooting_(San_Diego))
wow a classic - i forgot
Quote from: SGR on Mar 28, 2023, 03:31 PMRegardless of the gender/orientation/identity of the person who committed the shooting, I'm guessing the end result will be the same as it always is.
Democrats will talk about gun control and the need to ban this or that type of firearm - while blaming Republicans for this happening
Republicans will talk about mental illness, SRIs, and arming the teachers - while blaming Democrats for this happening
And then after a week or so, we'll move on to whatever the next story is, do nothing at all to improve the situation, and then do the whole song and dance again when the next school shooting inevitably happens.
You say that like gun control isn't the solution but you're right nothing will change.
Children getting killed at school is a price that Americans are willing to pay.
They probably just hope its someone else's children who are killed and not theirs.
The USA is sick.
Mrs. Waffles, thanks for setting me straight.
No pun intended.
I'll shut up now.
:shycouch:
Is absolute gun control even possible? Sounds like a sequel to the War On Drugs.
Complete or not, gun control should be an obstacle that hopefully might stop such an event or at least lessen its impact.
That regular ass people seem to be able to get assault rifles is mind boggling to me
When do you need an assault rifle? Oh right, when you're shooting up a school. Otherwise, you probably don't need one.
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 06:24 PMComplete or not, gun control should be an obstacle that hopefully might stop such an event or at least lessen its impact.
That regular ass people seem to be able to get assault rifles is mind boggling to me
When do you need an assault rifle? Oh right, when you're shooting up a school. Otherwise, you probably don't need one.
ok
but why should i accept that they belong in the hands of any other
i'm 100% for removing them from the face of the earth completely
once the military and the police disarm "regular ass people" certainly should follow their excellent example
the idea that i should sacrifice my right to own a weapon, any weapon up to and including nuclear bombs, that others own is to suggest that i should respect my own humanity less than theirs
any conversation about disarmament that doesn't start with the government disarming first stops right there for me
that said i am for radical and complete disarmament from nukes to 22s
^I think more in terms of consequences than I do principles.
Like if you have some conflict with the police, the likely consequence of you bringing your own assault rifle into that conflict is you end up getting killed.
If you want good consequences, there are better "weapons" that could be used.
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 06:49 PMQuote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 06:24 PMComplete or not, gun control should be an obstacle that hopefully might stop such an event or at least lessen its impact.
That regular ass people seem to be able to get assault rifles is mind boggling to me
When do you need an assault rifle? Oh right, when you're shooting up a school. Otherwise, you probably don't need one.
ok
but why should i accept that they belong in the hands of any other
i'm 100% for removing them from the face of the earth completely
once the military and the police disarm "regular ass people" certainly should follow their excellent example
the idea that i should sacrifice my right to own a weapon, any weapon up to and including nuclear bombs, that others own is to suggest that i should respect my own humanity less than theirs
any conversation about disarmament that doesn't start with the government disarming first stops right there for me
that said i am for radical and complete disarmament from nukes to 22s
That's an interesting distinction - because you're right, when 99% of people talk about 'gun control', what they're really talking about is gun centralization. These politicians don't want you to have guns, but they sure as hell want their body guards and police forces to have them. Reminds me of that old XTC tune:
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 06:58 PM^I think more in terms of consequences than I do principles.
Like if you have some conflict with the police, the likely consequence of you bringing your own assault rifle into that conflict is you end up getting killed.
If you want good consequences, there are better "weapons" that could be used.
if they're also unarmed the chances of nobody getting shot is 100%
right now i'm uninterested in entertaining the consequence of being handcuffed and shot from the inside of my mouth like the man was that i posted in the other thread
so i'm definitely talking about consequences
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/deputies-accused-shoving-guns-mouths-2-black-men-98143955
QuoteIn Mississippi, the police shooting of Michael Corey Jenkins led the Justice Department to open a civil rights investigation into the Rankin County Sheriff's Department. Jenkins said six white deputies burst into a home where he was visiting a friend, and one put a gun in his mouth and fired. Jenkins' hospital records, parts of which he shared with AP, show he had a lacerated tongue and broken jaw.
I'm in favor of Toy Revolver's take. Bring back the age of swords.
QuoteThese politicians don't want you to have guns, but they sure as hell want their body guards and police forces to have them
oh and listen to them cry about Jan 6
"we felt unsafe"
so do the people who have to walk home at night two miles from the capitol building
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 06:24 PMComplete or not, gun control should be an obstacle that hopefully might stop such an event or at least lessen its impact.
That regular ass people seem to be able to get assault rifles is mind boggling to me
When do you need an assault rifle? Oh right, when you're shooting up a school. Otherwise, you probably don't need one.
banning assault weapons wouldn't change anything
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 09:13 PMQuote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 06:24 PMComplete or not, gun control should be an obstacle that hopefully might stop such an event or at least lessen its impact.
That regular ass people seem to be able to get assault rifles is mind boggling to me
When do you need an assault rifle? Oh right, when you're shooting up a school. Otherwise, you probably don't need one.
banning assault weapons wouldn't change anything
Why not? It's a start. It might for example start to change people's minds.
The US seems to be the only country in the western world where one might expect a civilian to own an assault rifle. That the US also has a lot of gun violence, maybe it's not completely unrelated.
We have guns too. They're hunting rifles or shotguns for shooting game. Big guns made specifically for scaring and shooting people isn't something you see here, on police or otherwise.
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 09:13 PMQuote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 06:24 PMComplete or not, gun control should be an obstacle that hopefully might stop such an event or at least lessen its impact.
That regular ass people seem to be able to get assault rifles is mind boggling to me
When do you need an assault rifle? Oh right, when you're shooting up a school. Otherwise, you probably don't need one.
banning assault weapons wouldn't change anything
have you ever watched the christchurch gopro footage
you cannot do that with a shotgun
Number of school shootings in the 26 years (9,000+ days) since the UK banned guns after Dunblane - 0
Bans work.
@tore
Because like you said, people are picking those guns in part because they're big and scary. The actual tactical advantage you are getting that people point to is kinda besides the point when you are shooting up a building full of unarmed civilians. As has been proven on multiple occasions, it's really not much harder if at all to carry out the same attacks using hand guns. If you have a couple loaded clips on hand ready to swap out that's all the firepower you need to gun down 20+ innocent unarmed people. It's literally already happened before.
These same guys who we think are picking the AR-15 from a shrewd tactical advantage will wear a bullet proof vest and then turn themselves in at the first sign of a cop shooting back. So why do they have the vest? Same reason they have the AR. Cause they're staring in a movie in their own head.
You could take away "assault weapons" (which really just refers to scary looking guns) and expend a shit load of political capital to do so, which in this country it would absolutely be a fight. Then, after doing so, when we still have roughly the same number of shootings, then what? These mass shootings only make like a tiny fraction of the murders in this country as it stands. So we are hyper focused on the handful of high profile shootings vs the thousands of ordinary shootings, most of which use pistols. And all we are doing even to stop strictly the mass shootings is remove their favorite gun? It feels almost strictly symbolic and it would cost way more political energy than it is actually worth in terms of results. That's my prediction anyway.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Mar 28, 2023, 09:35 PMNumber of school shootings in the 26 years (9,000+ days) since the UK banned guns after Dunblane - 0
Bans work.
banning guns in general can work. If you live on a shitty little nanny state island like england or Australia. Where people basically have to go through customs to enter the country.
This country is already far too gone for that. The only way to get to a general gun ban in the US, there would probably be a civil war over that. Unironically.
I heard Canada is going to be banning pistols or someshit soon. Good luck with that one! You can't share a border with us and expect not to have massive numbers of illegal guns pouring across it, so long as the demand is there.
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 09:43 PMQuote from: jimmy jazz on Mar 28, 2023, 09:35 PMNumber of school shootings in the 26 years (9,000+ days) since the UK banned guns after Dunblane - 0
Bans work.
banning guns in general can work. If you live on a shitty little nanny state island like england or Australia. Where people basically have to go through customs to enter the country.
This country is already far too gone for that. The only way to get to a general gun ban in the US, there would probably be a civil war over that. Unironically.
I heard Canada is going to be banning pistols or someshit soon. Good luck with that one! You can't share a border with us and expect not to have massive numbers of illegal guns pouring across it, so long as the demand is there.
Agree you are too far gone, well for it to work immediately anyway, but it's got to be worth a try. It's madness to do nothing.
Or just give Americans what they think they want for one year and arm every man, woman, child, student, teacher and everything else so every good guy has a gun. Then after the year is up and thousands and thousands of lives have been lost they'll agree how fucking stupid that idea is.
England isn't an island BTW :-X
QuoteAs has been proven on multiple occasions, it's really not much harder if at all to carry out the same attacks using hand guns.
dude the velocity from an ar 15 is so powerful that if you get shot in the shoulder the reverberations will destroy your heart
you simply cannot end human life with the sane efficiency with a normal handgun
i don't know what studies you saw but that's as preposterous as weed gets you as high as angel dust or chihuahuas are as dangerous as a dobermans
QuoteThe injury along the path of the bullet from an AR-15 is vastly different from a low-velocity handgun injury. The bullet from an AR-15 passes through the body like a cigarette boat traveling at maximum speed through a tiny canal. The tissue next to the bullet is elastic—moving away from the bullet like waves of water displaced by the boat—and then returns and settles back. This process is called cavitation; it leaves the displaced tissue damaged or killed. The high-velocity bullet causes a swath of tissue damage that extends several inches from its path. It does not have to actually hit an artery to damage it and cause catastrophic bleeding. Exit wounds can be the size of an orange.
source : The Atlantic
I'm saying that efficiency isn't necessarily tied directly to body count when you are shooting up innocent people who are ducked in the corner of a classroom begging not to be killed. It didn't stop the VA tech shooter from racking up 30 plus bodies with a couple pistols.
There are specific shootings like Las Vegas where sure, you needed a rifle for. But statistically i think the affect of an assault weapon ban will be negligible. I'm not opposed to giving it a try and watching it fail if that makes you guys feel better.
i don't need a degree in gun shooting to know that deadlier weapons are more deadly
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 07:30 PMQuoteThese politicians don't want you to have guns, but they sure as hell want their body guards and police forces to have them
oh and listen to them cry about Jan 6
"we felt unsafe"
so do the people who have to walk home at night two miles from the capitol building
That's the problem with any gun laws the Dems (or even Republicans) would pass. A rogue cop could bust into anyone's place they want and nobody would be able to defend themselves. They'll still have their assault weapons. Our elected officials will disarm the populace long before they ever disarm the police or military.
I don't deny they're more deadly. But pistols are obviously enough to get the job done.
If they were to shoot it out with the cops then i think having an AR 15 would make a crucial difference. But if you're shooting fish in a barrel sure the rounds might be deadlier but i don't think that is going to make nearly as critical of a difference.
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Mar 28, 2023, 10:37 PMQuote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 07:30 PMQuoteThese politicians don't want you to have guns, but they sure as hell want their body guards and police forces to have them
oh and listen to them cry about Jan 6
"we felt unsafe"
so do the people who have to walk home at night two miles from the capitol building
That's the problem with any gun laws the Dems (or even Republicans) would pass. A rogue cop could bust into anyone's place they want and nobody would be able to defend themselves. They'll still have their assault weapons. Our elected officials will disarm the populace long before they ever disarm the police or military.
what do you mean? If you have an assault weapon they'll still light your patriotic ass up lol
I really hate the American way of thinking about these guns as if they're protecting us from tyranny. It's such a gradiose and deluded view to me.
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 10:41 PMI don't deny they're more deadly. But pistols are obviously enough to get the job done.
If they were to shoot it out with the cops then i think having an AR 15 would make a crucial difference. But if you're shooting fish in a barrel sure the rounds might be deadlier but i don't think that is going to make nearly as critical of a difference.
watch that christchurch video
QuoteThat's the problem with any gun laws the Dems (or even Republicans) would pass. A rogue cop could bust into anyone's place they want and nobody would be able to defend themselves. They'll still have their assault weapons. Our elected officials will disarm the populace long before they ever disarm the police or military.
i know most people think this is a ridiculous thing to worry about or that our weapons we have against home invasion don't deter psychopathic cops but i don't believe it - they're also cowards and poop their trousers if they find out their victim is armed
the second amendment is a fascism killer and a revolutionary cornerstone
Quotewhat do you mean? If you have an assault weapon they'll still light your patriotic ass up lol
those fascist cowards in ulvade sure didn't want any part of it
That's true lol it can buy you some time.
But it didn't save the folks at waco.
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 11:01 PMQuote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 10:41 PMI don't deny they're more deadly. But pistols are obviously enough to get the job done.
If they were to shoot it out with the cops then i think having an AR 15 would make a crucial difference. But if you're shooting fish in a barrel sure the rounds might be deadlier but i don't think that is going to make nearly as critical of a difference.
watch that christchurch video
QuoteThat's the problem with any gun laws the Dems (or even Republicans) would pass. A rogue cop could bust into anyone's place they want and nobody would be able to defend themselves. They'll still have their assault weapons. Our elected officials will disarm the populace long before they ever disarm the police or military.
i know most people think this is a ridiculous thing to worry about or that our weapons we have against home invasion don't deter psychopathic cops but i don't believe it - they're also cowards and poop their trousers if they find out their victim is armed
the second amendment is a fascism killer and a revolutionary cornerstone
they had well regulated militias in Germany prior to the Nazis taking power. Some of them were called the SA and the Friekorps. The idea of a well regulated militia saving us presumes that the guys with guns are going to be the good guys. Very naive. Think about who is armed for the most part in this country for just a second, my friend.
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 11:13 PMQuote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 11:01 PMQuote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 10:41 PMI don't deny they're more deadly. But pistols are obviously enough to get the job done.
If they were to shoot it out with the cops then i think having an AR 15 would make a crucial difference. But if you're shooting fish in a barrel sure the rounds might be deadlier but i don't think that is going to make nearly as critical of a difference.
watch that christchurch video
QuoteThat's the problem with any gun laws the Dems (or even Republicans) would pass. A rogue cop could bust into anyone's place they want and nobody would be able to defend themselves. They'll still have their assault weapons. Our elected officials will disarm the populace long before they ever disarm the police or military.
i know most people think this is a ridiculous thing to worry about or that our weapons we have against home invasion don't deter psychopathic cops but i don't believe it - they're also cowards and poop their trousers if they find out their victim is armed
the second amendment is a fascism killer and a revolutionary cornerstone
they had well regulated militias in Germany prior to the Nazis taking power. Some of them were called the SA and the Friekorps. The idea of a well regulated militia saving us presumes that the guys with guns are going to be the good guys. Very naive. Think about who is armed for the most part in this country for just a second, my friend.
i think it's low income black people -
But think of the patriots who are actually training in the woods with their pals. What do you suppose they believe in?Lot of them are ex military and law enforcement.
Can we please stop deluding ourselves that the 2nd amendment has kept us safe? Lol. The honest thing to say is "i like guns, and i can deal with having a murder rate that seems comparable to a third world country if that's the price of freedom." That's not us keeping ourselves safe. That's collectively saying fuck safety. Freedom!
So the chances of your AR-15/gun somehow miraculously helping you out in a beef with the police is miniscule compared to the chance that you're gonna get hurt by someone else's AR-15/gun. It might be your neighbours, a colleague, a guy whose car you bump into.
You're focusing on the wrong things. It looks bonkers from the outside.
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 11:01 PMi know most people think this is a ridiculous thing to worry about or that our weapons we have against home invasion don't deter psychopathic cops but i don't believe it - they're also cowards and poop their trousers if they find out their victim is armed
the second amendment is a fascism killer and a revolutionary cornerstone
Wait, I thought earlier you were supporting banning all guns from everyone? Is that like "in an ideal world" sort of deal - where our government/police force wasn't armed?
Quote from: SGR on Mar 28, 2023, 11:33 PMQuote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 11:01 PMi know most people think this is a ridiculous thing to worry about or that our weapons we have against home invasion don't deter psychopathic cops but i don't believe it - they're also cowards and poop their trousers if they find out their victim is armed
the second amendment is a fascism killer and a revolutionary cornerstone
Wait, I thought earlier you were supporting banning all guns from everyone? Is that like "in an ideal world" sort of deal - where our government/police force wasn't armed?
consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
i simultaneously support contradictory ideas and i think people who don't are simpletons, frankly
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 11:33 PMSo the chances of your AR-15/gun somehow miraculously helping you out in a beef with the police is miniscule compared to the chance that you're gonna get hurt by someone else's AR-15/gun. It might be your neighbours, a colleague, a guy whose car you bump into.
You're focusing on the wrong things. It looks bonkers from the outside.
that's also true of other guns is the main problem.
I don't oppose a ban on AR's in principle, it's just i don't think it will be an easy fight and I'm skeptical as to what true decrease in death count we will see as the result. Like i said, i would be fine with it if they tried it. Republicans will fight you on it though.
But what i expect to happen is that people will shift to using pistols. And i think they will use slightly different tactics and maybe in some cases pick different targets. But they won't stop committing these mass shootings as long as there are so many options for doing so. And i don't expect that overall the numbers would be that significantly different. And you are dealing with a fraction of a fraction of the shootings in this country in the first place. Pistols are used in the vast majority of overall shootings. These AR style guns are very rarely used in any crime other than mass shootings.
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 11:39 PMQuote from: SGR on Mar 28, 2023, 11:33 PMQuote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 28, 2023, 11:01 PMi know most people think this is a ridiculous thing to worry about or that our weapons we have against home invasion don't deter psychopathic cops but i don't believe it - they're also cowards and poop their trousers if they find out their victim is armed
the second amendment is a fascism killer and a revolutionary cornerstone
Wait, I thought earlier you were supporting banning all guns from everyone? Is that like "in an ideal world" sort of deal - where our government/police force wasn't armed?
consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds
i simultaneously support contradictory ideas and i think people who don't are simpletons, frankly
:laughing:
Ah I'm now remembering, we've had this argument before on MB - and we disagree about it, but that's okay.
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 11:45 PMQuote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 11:33 PMSo the chances of your AR-15/gun somehow miraculously helping you out in a beef with the police is miniscule compared to the chance that you're gonna get hurt by someone else's AR-15/gun. It might be your neighbours, a colleague, a guy whose car you bump into.
You're focusing on the wrong things. It looks bonkers from the outside.
that's also true of other guns is the main problem.
I don't oppose a ban on AR's in principle, it's just i don't think it will be an easy fight and I'm skeptical as to what true decrease in death count we will see as the result. Like i said, i would be fine with it if they tried it. Republicans will fight you on it though.
But what i expect to happen is that people will shift to using pistols. And i think they will use slightly different tactics and maybe in some cases pick different targets. But they won't stop committing these mass shootings as long as there are so many options for doing so. And i don't expect that overall the numbers would be that significantly different. And you are dealing with a fraction of a fraction of the shootings in this country in the first place. Pistols are used in the vast majority of overall shootings. These AR style guns are very rarely used in any crime other than mass shootings.
My point was more about having guns as defense against cops isn't a good idea because arming society increases risk to yourself from other sources/people. That increased risk is going to be way bigger than the reality of the imagined benefit.
But about ARs, possibly, most of the harm they do is psychological in either contributing to gun nuttery (because I just assume a lot of people think they're cool and want them) OR that they cause fear and remind people that they are living in a violent society with dangerous people.
I mean OH is definitely right that they're deadlier and more menacing even to the cops. I just think if we had virtually the same problem but people were shooting up schools using strictly pistols, we are underestimating how similar that would seem to the current situation. The psychological terror inflicted by mass shootings is not primarily a function of how scary the gun looks.
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 29, 2023, 12:03 AMQuote from: Jwb on Mar 28, 2023, 11:45 PMQuote from: Guybrush on Mar 28, 2023, 11:33 PMSo the chances of your AR-15/gun somehow miraculously helping you out in a beef with the police is miniscule compared to the chance that you're gonna get hurt by someone else's AR-15/gun. It might be your neighbours, a colleague, a guy whose car you bump into.
You're focusing on the wrong things. It looks bonkers from the outside.
that's also true of other guns is the main problem.
I don't oppose a ban on AR's in principle, it's just i don't think it will be an easy fight and I'm skeptical as to what true decrease in death count we will see as the result. Like i said, i would be fine with it if they tried it. Republicans will fight you on it though.
But what i expect to happen is that people will shift to using pistols. And i think they will use slightly different tactics and maybe in some cases pick different targets. But they won't stop committing these mass shootings as long as there are so many options for doing so. And i don't expect that overall the numbers would be that significantly different. And you are dealing with a fraction of a fraction of the shootings in this country in the first place. Pistols are used in the vast majority of overall shootings. These AR style guns are very rarely used in any crime other than mass shootings.
My point was more about having guns as defense against cops isn't a good idea because arming society increases risk to yourself from other sources/people. That increased risk is going to be way bigger than the reality of the imagined benefit.
But about ARs, possibly, most of the harm they do is psychological in either contributing to gun nuttery (because I just assume a lot of people think they're cool and want them) OR that they cause fear and remind people that they are living in a violent society with dangerous people.
this is a real advertisement
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjyvD0kH/A0000-B7-D-3-C90-4-A00-AC4-D-8-D16-B7-B4805-C.jpg)
In terms of the motivation behind the shootings, would it still be as attractive if you have to carry it out with the same gun as the fat mall cop carries? The fact that you get to kill people with a badass looking weapon must tie into this somehow. Part of what made Columbine (the big one for my generation) so memorable is that they had some scary looking guns
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 29, 2023, 12:26 AMthis is a real advertisement
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjyvD0kH/A0000-B7-D-3-C90-4-A00-AC4-D-8-D16-B7-B4805-C.jpg)
Wow.
It's weird how different societies can be. A marketing campaign like that here would be considered stupid and offensive here.
I also don't see commercials blatantly playing the male insecurity card here :laughing: at least not much since awareness about toxic masculinity became a thing.
QuoteA marketing campaign like that here would be considered stupid and offensive here.
it's considered stupid and offensive here too
but they're targeting a very "small" part of the population
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 29, 2023, 12:38 AMit's considered stupid and offensive here too
but they're targeting a very "small" part of the population
I see.. the small part that bites when told they can become realer men if only they have an assault rifle. So ridiculous :laughing:
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 29, 2023, 12:41 AMQuote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 29, 2023, 12:38 AMit's considered stupid and offensive here too
but they're targeting a very "small" part of the population
I see.. the small part that bites when told they can become realer men if only they have an assault rifle. So ridiculous :laughing:
The same demographic that buys a giant gas-guzzling pickup truck and ends up only using the bed of the truck when their friends/family ask them to help during a move.
Quote from: jadis on Mar 29, 2023, 12:32 AMIn terms of the motivation behind the shootings, would it still be as attractive if you have to carry it out with the same gun as the fat mall cop carries? The fact that you get to kill people with a badass looking weapon must tie into this somehow. Part of what made Columbine (the big one for my generation) so memorable is that they had some scary looking guns
yep
"I'm still waiting for a mass shooter who eschews 9mm pistols and instead buys an AK-47 pistol, 30 30-round magazines, and 1000 hollow points," Lanza posted in a forum about the Columbine High School shooting in January 2011.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/adam-lanzas-terrifying-online-life-revealed-mass-shooting-spreadsheets-columbine-collages-and-murder-tumblrs
Did you see that recently (within the last year or so), they found Lanza's Youtube account? He posted a bunch of weird stuff, mostly him soliloquizing about various things. I downloaded a giant zip file of it when it was available. He was a weird dude.
Nope but he's one of the few who actually look completely deranged. What's shocking is how many of them don't
All I know is I wouldn't stand a chance against him in Dance Dance Revolution
If the VA tech shooting happened before columbine, we would remember it instead. Columbine was just the beginning of the trend of these school shootings. That's why it's remembered more than anything else. The shocking part is the innocent kids being gunned down, not the choice of gun.
As for would they bother if they had to use a pistol? The answer is a reasounding yes. In the UK people resort to knife attacks and running people over with cars. If you think a mass murderer can be easily deterred by restricting them to pistols i think you have another thing coming. And most mass shooters bring a pistol with them even if they do use an AR as their main weapon. The idea that killing scores of innocent people with a pistol isn't "cool enough" and that they wouldn't bother as a result seems to underestimate how badly someone has to want to kill in order to carry out such an attack in the first place. Obviously they prefer xyz weapon but at the end of the day they will absolutely settle for something else if need be.
Dr. Grande has released a video on the Audrey Hale shooting - he's generally pretty objective.
Dr Grande sounds like a menu item at Taco Bell.
Quote from: Jwb on Mar 29, 2023, 04:45 AMDr Grande sounds like a menu item at Taco Bell.
I'd buy one, with extra cheese
Is he Ariana's father?
Quote from: Trollheart on Mar 29, 2023, 01:19 PMIs he Ariana's father?
I'm 99% sure that's not the case. I think Ariana has a much less dry sense of humor.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Mar 28, 2023, 03:48 PMChildren getting killed at school is a price that Americans are willing to pay.
They probably just hope its someone else's children who are killed and not theirs.
The USA is sick.
Something profoundly disturbing has happened to American society during the past 40-some-odd years. I don't know exactly what has happened but when I was in school during the 60's and 70's, shootings at American schools were almost unheard of and on the very unusual and rare occasion when they did happen, it was usually a grudge between a couple of students or a student and a teacher and didn't involve anyone else.
I'm glad I finished school before all of this atrocious carnage started to occur and become a trend. I can scarcely imagine what kids and parents in the USA have to deal with today during every school day.
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Mar 29, 2023, 05:53 PMSomething profoundly disturbing has happened to American society during the past 40-some-odd years. I don't know exactly what has happened but when I was in school during the 60's and 70's, shootings at American schools were almost unheard of and on the very unusual and rare occasion when they did happen, it was usually a grudge between a couple of students or a student and a teacher and didn't involve anyone else.
I'm glad I finished school before all of this atrocious carnage started to occur and become a trend. I can scarcely imagine what kids and parents in the USA have to deal with today during every school day.
Same here. I was in school in the 80s and 90s, and though there were some school shootings that happened during that time, it was no where near the level of how it's been more recently.
Quote from: Janszoon on Mar 29, 2023, 06:09 PMQuote from: Psy-Fi on Mar 29, 2023, 05:53 PMSomething profoundly disturbing has happened to American society during the past 40-some-odd years. I don't know exactly what has happened but when I was in school during the 60's and 70's, shootings at American schools were almost unheard of and on the very unusual and rare occasion when they did happen, it was usually a grudge between a couple of students or a student and a teacher and didn't involve anyone else.
I'm glad I finished school before all of this atrocious carnage started to occur and become a trend. I can scarcely imagine what kids and parents in the USA have to deal with today during every school day.
Same here. I was in school in the 80s and 90s, and though there were some school shootings that happened during that time, it was no where near the level of how it's been more recently.
It seems to track a bit with the rise of the internet, and the ease of accessibility to it, no?
Not saying that it's directly causal or anything - but probably plays a factor in different ways.
Back in the 80s/90s (and before), when kids went home, the bullying/harassment for the day was over. Now, with social media and how tuned in many kids are to it, the bullying often leaks over into that space as well. I get the adult perspective of 'just block them', but I'm guessing it's probably not as simple as that for kids.
Disillusioned kids also now, with the internet, have the ability to learn more about previous school shootings, weaponry, etc. and of course, these disillusioned kids, who often seek approval or at least some kind of recognition no doubt see all the attention that school shooters are given by the media. I'm imagining for some neglected kids, any kind of attention is good attention.
Not to mention that the internet has allowed them to seek out and fester in negative and toxic-minded communities of people who might feed into their negative/anti-social thoughts (e.g. incels).
Again, not claiming it's causal, but I think it definitely plays some kind of role.
Quote from: SGR on Mar 29, 2023, 06:26 PMIt seems to track a bit with the rise of the internet, and the ease of accessibility to it, no?
Not saying that it's directly causal or anything - but probably plays a factor in different ways.
Back in the 80s/90s (and before), when kids went home, the bullying/harassment for the day was over. Now, with social media and how tuned in many kids are to it, the bullying often leaks over into that space as well. I get the adult perspective of 'just block them', but I'm guessing it's probably not as simple as that for kids.
Disillusioned kids also now, with the internet, have the ability to learn more about previous school shootings, weaponry, etc. and of course, these disillusioned kids, who often seek approval or at least some kind of recognition no doubt see all the attention that school shooters are given by the media. I'm imagining for some neglected kids, any kind of attention is good attention.
Not to mention that the internet has allowed them to seek out and fester in negative and toxic-minded communities of people who might feed into their negative/anti-social thoughts (e.g. incels).
Again, not claiming it's causal, but I think it definitely plays some kind of role.
I think the internet is part of it, along with the general growth in media overall. Not only do I think that the 24 hour news cycle puts people more on edge in general, but I think the reporting about things like mass shootings to some extent probably gives some people ideas. The fact that the same time period we're talking about is also when the NRA started really going off the rails is probably a factor as well.
is there a more appropriate word than "fad"
i think it's the same sort of social contagion
the drills they're having in schools and the obsession with locking every door might be making it more likely to happen
like putting it in their heads yeah this is a thing
i'm not suggesting they do otherwise - idk
i'll always comeback to this point though
we need to do away with the compulsory component
school is not for everyone- forcing tens of millions of people to do something against their will day after day for years is bound to get serious pushback
also the strict scheduling and bell adherence needs to be deeply reformed- i don't think people who aren't alienated by this process understand how upsetting it to some kids who just aren't cut out for it
what if you had a job you absolutely hated and it was against the law to quit - that's insane -
Kids are the most vulnerable group of people in our society and the regular mistreatment of them seems to be by and large accepted. It's actually disgusting.
The same people who might call you a disgusting piece of shit for beating your wife or beating your dog will encourage (or at least turn a blind eye to) the spanking and hitting of kids - and they'll justify it in their own heads if they were beat/spanked as a kid: "If I cried like that in a store, my dad would've given me a beating" or "Kids don't get any discipline these days, back in my day, my dad would whip out his belt and we'd shape up" or "My parents hit me as a kid, and I turned out okay!"
And so the cycle will continue because the justifications continue - because dumbfuck adults think it's okay and are afraid to confront their parents for what they did or to broach the idea that their parents were abusers and weren't actually just "doing the best that they could". If kids weren't beat, spanked, and neglected on a regular basis across the country, we'd have a much more peaceful and accepting society.
Quote from: Toy Revolver on Mar 29, 2023, 09:36 PMthe drills they're having in schools and the obsession with locking every door might be making it more likely to happen
like putting it in their heads yeah this is a thing
i'm not suggesting they do otherwise - idk
Every time a school shooting occurs, the so-called "security experts" are all over the TV talking about the security measures at the school and offering ideas on implementing extra layers of security to try to keep it from happening again. I guess it's a case of trying to be safe rather than sorry but these shootings keep happening with mind-boggling frequency even with all these extra security measures. The notion that a school should be some sort of combination of a TSA checkpoint, military compound, and prison seems unreal to me.
Quote from: SGR on Mar 29, 2023, 09:49 PMKids are the most vulnerable group of people in our society and the regular mistreatment of them seems to be by and large accepted. It's actually disgusting.
The same people who might call you a disgusting piece of shit for beating your wife or beating your dog will encourage (or at least turn a blind eye to) the spanking and hitting of kids - and they'll justify it in their own heads if they were beat/spanked as a kid: "If I cried like that in a store, my dad would've given me a beating" or "Kids don't get any discipline these days, back in my day, my dad would whip out his belt and we'd shape up" or "My parents hit me as a kid, and I turned out okay!"
And so the cycle will continue because the justifications continue - because dumbfuck adults think it's okay and are afraid to confront their parents for what they did or to broach the idea that their parents were abusers and weren't actually just "doing the best that they could". If kids weren't beat, spanked, and neglected on a regular basis across the country, we'd have a much more peaceful and accepting society.
https://preventchildabuse.org/
this organization has been at it for decades
their commercials on tv when i was a kid helped me tremendously
a kid doesn't even necessarily know it's abnormal and wrong without any other guidance
those ads reassured me that it wasn't my fault and that i didn't deserve it
it's hard to accurately remember what was in your head but i think i understood that instinctively but seeing examples on tv and the message to the parent saying don't be like this
i'd like to tell the people who made those ads that i heard it and it meant a lot - those people were awesome
In years, even decades gone by, I would disagree with you on school, because how else would kids learn? But now it does seem that they're less establishments of learning (if they ever were) and more a sort of assembly line to show how good - or bad - the teachers are. I mean, let's be honest here: at least sixty percent of what we learned in school has been of no use to us whatsoever. I did terrible in maths, I wasn't great at geography, I loved history and of course English, I struggled through Irish, French and Spanish and as far as Religious Ed (or as they called it here, Catechism, which is somehow more chilling) they can stick it. Point-less.
But now, anything you need to know can be looked up online. There's the Open University, all sorts of online schools and colleges, and just about every resource you need to learn anything. Obviously, getting a kid (let's say from maybe ten; who really needs an education before that? Kindergarten my arse - just a way to give the parents a break for a few hours a day) to actually put in the work and not play their ZBox or YBox or whatever it is you damn kids play those video-computerated games on, would be hard. But if parents made an effort, and the "lessons" were made interesting, maybe it could work.
I wonder what the stats are for those who go to school (not college now; that's something you choose to do but school is mandatory) and actually do well in life versus those who go to school and end up hanging around on street corners? I'd imagine they might surprise you. Or not.
Tl;dr: there's really no solid reason to pack a load of kids into a small space for eight hours a day five days a week and talk to them about dead kings and queens, the square root of fuck and how to say "Blow me" in Spanish or Italian. And any kid who really wants to know what a god-damn terminal moraine is, or how igneous rock is formed, can surely find out on their own time.
It would certainly decrease the school shootings, wouldn't it, if there were no schools?
QuoteIt would certainly decrease the school shootings, wouldn't it, if there were no schools?
Completely abolishing public education used to be my position but I've softened. I've read a lot about home schooling, unschooling, alternatives to school, and I've worked with troubled youth, I've listened to their opinions, I've taught virtual / online classes, I've created online curriculum--
the road to hell is paved with good intentions and dropout prevention is the worst thing schools get into
there's so many possible creative alternatives to what we're doing now but we're stuck in a victorian nightmare
also, school shootings are obviously tragic but in terms of inflicting human misery, the cost of forcing school on those who hate it and the psychological misery they suffer through and the permanent ptsd level it causes on this subset of kids, because of the sheer volume of them that's where the ultimate tragedy is, anxiety depression bullying ostracism all that - it's one of those things we accept because it's been normalized for so long we don't even see it anymore
I remember I had a very bad time at school. I was what we call here a swot (brainiac), not into sport, skinny and wearing glasses with buck teeth (I was wearing the glasses, not my buck teeth) and just really one of those kids who didn't fit in. I didn't torture the teachers and I wanted to actually learn. BAD move! So I got bullied a lot - though nothing like what happens today, even here. I hated school so much I developed what was nearly an ulcer, and one day my ma said something I had never expected her to: if you want to leave school, just get a job. I was amazed, and from that point on things were easier. I remember the day I left school for my job was one of the happiest of my life. I did learn in school though, and I only really left a year early, but had I stayed on I doubt it would have been of any real benefit to me.
Oh, and our school was/is one of those who prides itself on its sports teams - hurling, GAA, football - so if you didn't play sports, well, you played sports. You had no choice and there was no sympathy.
So, tealdeer: fuck school and fuck the entire school system.
I feel like there should be some shape of school. Certain things I think are important are things people very seldom pick up outside of school (or even inside). Education is a cornerstone of democracy because if people are going to have political power - even if it's just a vote - they should preferably be more competent in the way they wield it. I think providing a good, free, public education should be a top priority in every democracy.
That kids are busy with something during the day let's adults have jobs, so that's nice.
A lot of what kids learn in school isn't on the curriculum. There might be many lessons learned from social or moral challenges. Their first falling in love, perhaps boyfriend/girlfriend. Just learning to suck it up and get up every morning might be a lesson in and of itself.
It's deeply unfortunate that school systems hurt a lot of people. I also didn't like school much in my youth and basically wasted a year because I skipped it so much. I'd still prefer school to be adjusted so that it better accommodates the different needs of its pupils/students than for it to be abolished.
Quote from: Guybrush on Mar 30, 2023, 11:51 PMI feel like there should be some shape of school. Certain things I think are important are things people very seldom pick up outside of school (or even inside). Education is a cornerstone of democracy because if people are going to have political power - even if it's just a vote - they should preferably be more competent in the way they wield it. I think providing a good, free, public education should be a top priority in every democracy.
That kids are busy with something during the day let's adults have jobs, so that's nice.
A lot of what kids learn in school isn't on the curriculum. There might be many lessons learned from social or moral challenges. Their first falling in love, perhaps boyfriend/girlfriend. Just learning to suck it up and get up every morning might be a lesson in and of itself.
It's deeply unfortunate that school systems hurt a lot of people. I also didn't like school much in my youth and basically wasted a year because I skipped it so much. I'd still prefer school to be adjusted so that it better accommodates the different needs of its pupils/students than for it to be abolished.
everything about that is perfectly reasonable
this isn't an accusation that you are but it's good to not equate education with schooling
it should not be assumed that time spent in school is educational or time spent away from school isn't
i doubt it's representative but i saw footage of norwegian kids learning english in a public school and i was astonished by the quality
Americans! Send all your school-age kids to Norway! They'll actually learn stuff, and there's a better than 9 in 10 chance that none of them will be involved in a school shooting! Sign up now, places limited.
Very limited, I'd think :) The whole of Norway holds less people than New York. I realize that may be a luxury and part of why certain things probably work a little better here, like how noone's afraid of school shootings.
Looking at the appalling statistics, American children would be less likely to be shot going to school in any country in the world besides the USA...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXVJndvR/SSBC2023.png) (https://postimages.org/)
School Shootings by Country 2023 (https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country)
And that's just up to April :-\
Seems to me it gets understated to what extent Republicans are banking on school shootings to come closer toward their wet dream of gutting the public school system in America (https://newrepublic.com/article/167375/republican-plan-devastate-public-education-america). Which they hate because 1) govt bad 2) the desegregation of schools is a thorn in their side.
I don't think anyone should idealize the school as an institution (according to some, it's modelled on the prison, no less) but the alternative is kids from poor families getting no access to any educational institutions whatsoever, which seems infinitely worse.
Curious to hear what
@Toy Revolver thinks about this, he's the one here with the first hand knowledge
Quote from: jadis on Apr 03, 2023, 01:37 AMSeems to me it gets understated to what extent Republicans are banking on school shootings to come closer toward their wet dream of gutting the public school system in America (https://newrepublic.com/article/167375/republican-plan-devastate-public-education-america). Which they hate because 1) govt bad 2) the desegregation of schools is a thorn in their side.
I don't think anyone should idealize the school as an institution (according to some, it's modelled on the prison, no less) but the alternative is kids from poor families getting no access to any educational institutions whatsoever, which seems infinitely worse.
Curious to hear what @Toy Revolver thinks about this, he's the one here with the first hand knowledge
let me get your question straight
are you asking me if i think republicans think that a silver lining to school shootings is that they could play a role in undermining the institution of free public education
Something like that, yeah. And that their reluctance to back any kind of gun regulation could be partially explained by this
then my answer is no, i don't think so
if i start extrapolating on why my answer in no there's a lot of rabbit holes i'd have to go down
but even if i grant you the premise that republicans even want to gut public schools the answer is still no
even the most rabid right wing opponents to public education don't see this as an opportunity nor does it affect their political policies or voting records
people who hate public education that much do exist but they're not on any sort of traditional left right political continuum
people like that are misanthropic suicidal lunatics without any meaningful political affiliation
What do the white areas represent on that map? Countries where people have been brought back to life by school shooters? Bit weird there's so much of it white. I assume, all joking aside, these are countries that for one reason or another didn't respond to or didn't agree to be in the survey?
Quote from: Trollheart on Apr 03, 2023, 03:34 AMWhat do the white areas represent on that map? Countries where people have been brought back to life by school shooters? Bit weird there's so much of it white. I assume, all joking aside, these are countries that for one reason or another didn't respond to or didn't agree to be in the survey?
those are the countries where schools already don't exist.
:laughing: :laughing: