Something Completely Different

Isn't it like the old argument, you're either with us or agin us? The pro-life twisted idea that labels those against them as pro-abortion, rather than pro-choice, that if we agree with abortion (no matter what caveats/limits are put on that, and I don't think anyone wants abortions just for the sake of them) then we are anti-life and we want everyone to have an abortion? Extending this to the current situation, and building on something discussed in the 2024 Presidential Election thread, but wanting to take it out of that discussion and into its own, isn't it completely disingenuous, even deliberately manipulative, to label anyone who professes sympathy for Gaza as being an anti-Semite, bent on the destruction of the Jews?

Isn't it possible to sympathise with, revile and revolt against the wholesale destruction of a people without being against Jews in general? I find the rhetoric being used by NetanGoogle sorry Netanyahu chillingly familiar: he says essentially "anyone supporting Palestine and wanting this war to end is anti-Semite", while only a year or less ago the noises coming out of the Kremlin were about "disturbing prevalence of Russophobia". Each is trying to justify mass-murder with a) being defence, which it is not and b) protecting their people, which they are not. Why can we not decry the slaughter of innocents without it having to be seen as a political belief? If these were Arabs or Mexicans or Cubans or Africans or Muslims or, hell, white Christians, I would personally feel the same. I don't look at Gaza and think "stinking Jews!" I look at Gaza and think "stinking murderers!"

Would it be too hyperbolic to say that Israel stands at the brink of the precipice, ready to fall into the abyss and join their historical oppressors? Can there, really, be too much difference between the Third Reich trying to exterminate the Jewish people, and the Jewish people (embodied in the State of Israel) trying to exterminate the Palestianian people? And yet, if you raise this question, you're anti-Semite. That can't keep being used as an excuse. Sometimes, evil is evil, regardless of race, creed or colour, or gender.

Thoughts?

(Incidentally, this is with reference to Israel alone; it has nothing to do with America's support of the war, which is being discussed anyway elsewhere.)

Quoteisn't it completely disingenuous, even deliberately manipulative, to label anyone who professes sympathy for Gaza as being an anti-Semite, bent on the destruction of the Jews?

Yes it is. Not that different to the way people like to throw around the word 'Islamophobia' whenever the religion of Islam is criticised.

Right. It's like there is no nuance: you either support these people or don't, and your views have to reflect that. I know it's a drama (and not a very good one) but I've seen occasions in the series FBI where someone will describe a suspect and say "I think he was Muslim" and one of the agents, who is (or plays) a Muslim, says "you THINK?" The inference being that every Muslim is seen, in many eyes, as a potential terrorist. So if Hamas are a terrorist group, does it follow every Palestinian mother and child is also one? It's fucking ridiculous, and as I think SGR said, the sympathy for the Holocaust is in danger of being overridden by what can only really be called the genocide of Gaza.

"NetanGoogle"  :laughing:

I don't have many thoughts to add really but I agree with everything in your post @Trollheart

At least it's not NetanAskJeeves.

One thing that seems eternally true about humans is that we like to put ourselves and others into 'groups'. I think there's two primary reasons for this:

• It provides us with a form of identity (or reinforces our own identity by excluding another group from our identity). And we crave identities. It allows us to feel like we're part of something bigger than ourselves, whether it's religion, nationality, political party, race, creed, or even sports fandom.
• It allows us an easier way to think about and discuss topics and issues without requiring us to observe or recognize many of the inevitable nuances. Am I "pro-life" or "pro-choice"? Am I 'anti-immigration' or 'pro-immigration'? Am I 'pro-enviromentalism' or 'anti-enviromentalism'?

To the point of identity, this has actually been studied in terms of how it motivates us and our thinking.

Identity-based motivation: Implications for intervention (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3079278/)

Here's the abstract:

QuoteChildren want to succeed academically and attend college, but their actual attainment often lags behind; some groups (e.g., boys, low-income children) are particularly likely to experience this gap. Social structural factors matter, influencing this gap in part by affecting children's perceptions of what is possible for them and people like them in the future. Interventions that focus on this macro-micro interface can boost children's attainment. We articulate the processes underlying these effects using an integrative culturally sensitive framework entitled identity-based motivation (IBM, Oyserman, 2007, 2009a, 2009b). The IBM model assumes that identities are dynamically constructed in context. People interpret situations and difficulties in ways that are congruent with currently active identities and prefer identity-congruent to identity-incongruent actions. When action feels identity-congruent, experienced difficulty highlights that the behavior is important and meaningful. When action feels identity-incongruent, the same difficulty suggests that the behavior is pointless and "not for people like me."

One finding of the study was that our identities and thus our actions are malleable, especially when we're young. To give a very simple example:

Say two different mothers wants their young child's help in doing the dishes. The mothers ask in two different ways:

• "Please go do the dishes"
• "Be a big helper, and help me by doing the dishes"

The theory goes, that more often than not, the second mother is going to have much more success with getting their child's help in doing the dishes, because not only has she made a request, she's attached an identity to doing the request - "a big helper". In the first request, the child could completely reject the request as something that is not congruent with their identity, and thus conflicts, even if their current identity is something as simple as "a kid who wants to play outside with his friends". Attaching a positive identity to the request is more likely to be successful, because the child (and people in general) want to embody that positive identity. It gives us humans a sense of purpose and meaning.

To this point, and the larger points made here by others, you can imagine how these identities (or 'labels' if you'd prefer) can be used both positively or negatively by politicians for the purposes of propaganda.

"Those guys are anti-Semitic!" - well, jeez, I don't want to associate or support people like that
"Those guys are pro-genocide!" - well, gosh, now I don't know who to support

Personally, I just want the war to end. Real brave and insightful, I know.  :laughing:
The problem is how peace and stability could be kept and maintained between the two groups in the future. I don't know that it can.

QuotePro-Palestinian does not equal anti-Semitism; your thoughts?

I agree. And being pro-Palestinian doesn't mean being pro-Hamas. Not enough people understand that multiple things can be true at the same time. The October 7 attacks were horrific. Israel's bombing of Palestinian civilians in response continues to be horrific.

To your point, SGR, it can even be simpler in terms of labels or groups: everyone wants to be either good or bad, or at least perceived as such, as despite the likes of George Thoroughgood growling that he's "Bad to the bone" or Gary Moore spitting about the fact that he's "Cold Hearted", almost everyone wants to be seen as being good, however simplistic that term is. That means you (want to) stand up for the little guy, protect your family, do well in your life, leave some sort of legacy/remembrance behind. Last night I watched the last episode in Ken Burns' documentary The US and the Holocaust, and I felt horror and sympathy and sorrow for the Jews. I cried over Anne Frank. I don't feel any different today. I don't say to myself, should have let them all die. But I don't equate what Israel is doing today with what their ancestors went through almost a century ago now. I don't hate Jews. I have nothing against Jews. I have a lot against murderers and cowards, and people who hide behind the sacrifice - intended or not - of their forebears and use it as a blanket, catch-all excuse and premise to justify what they're doing now.

I want to be seen as a good person. I think I am, generally, or I try to be. And one way we do that is to try - even through lipservice and head-shaking - to decry the wrongs in the world. I don't worry that I'll be misrepresented if I post in outrage about Palestinian children being killed, hospitals being bombed, and Israel deliberately targetting Rafah, where all those who could have fled, as their next war zone, a tactic that has disturbing parallels with what both the IRA and the Loyalists used to do in Northern Ireland during the troubles: they'd set off a bomb, and when the emergency services arrived to tend to the wounded they would have another go off, deliberately luring them in. It was disgusting then, and it's disgusting now. And it should be and must be called what is is, not Jewish murder, but simple murder. The IDF have already killed over, by general estimates (though they're believed to be higher) 300 times the number of hostages Hamas took, and at least some of the latter are still alive.

Unless you're an Israeli - even if you are - how can anyone hide behind the accusation of anti-Semitism to allow such atrocities to happen? Have they learned nothing from World War II? Are we forever doomed to repeat history, and isn't what Netanyahu and his parliament are doing now only emboldening the far right, who will point - and surely are already doing so - to the destruction and indisciminate killing in Gaza to support their long-held belief that the Jews are nothing but a race of murderers, and that Hitler had it right all along? And how long, despicable as that sentiment is, will we be able to contradict it? Are we looking at Europe before appeasement and Europe after? Hitler has no intention of causing war versus Hitler is a warmongering dictator and needs to be stopped? There have got to be Germans either quietly or openly laughing at the way the world's eyes have been "opened" to the "threat" of the "international Jew" - how can Israel not see that they're playing into the very hands of their enemies? Why is nobody in Israel protesting this war? Or are they, and are being silenced? The forced closure of Al-Jazeera in Israel yesterday takes this to an even more worrying and darker place.

But to return to my original, or rather, SGR's original point: if the only true division we make among us is, are we "good" or are we "bad", then we all - with some very few exceptions - want to be good, or seen as such. Why? Because in a very general and simplistic sense, those who are "good", or seen as good, are listened to more. Even Trump and his far right never said "We're evil and we want to kill everyone who doesn't agree with us", because then nobody would have wanted to have been associated with them. Everyone - everyone, even fucking Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, you name it - couches their goals as being "for the good" of [insert cause here], otherwise nobody would support them, and even the most powerful dictator, president, king or warlord relies on others for his powerbase, a classic truism being that if you don't have the support of the military you are gone. So nobody will come out and say "I am evil!" We all want to be good. Unfortunately, it's not that simple, or to quote Pontius Pilate in Jesus Christ Superstar: "We all have truths: are mine the same as yours?"

Sigh. More anti-Semitism! When will people learn?  ::)  (https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2024/0510/1448401-middle-east/?at_medium=email&at_emailtype=retention&at_campaign=website&at_creation=News%20Newsletter%20&at_link=Automated%20Newsletter&at_recipient_list=2&at_send_date=20240510)

I suppose you have to give Israel points for style. Where did they get a mini-shredder, anyway?

Quote from: Trollheart on May 11, 2024, 01:03 AMSigh. More anti-Semitism! When will people learn?  ::)  (https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2024/0510/1448401-middle-east/?at_medium=email&at_emailtype=retention&at_campaign=website&at_creation=News%20Newsletter%20&at_link=Automated%20Newsletter&at_recipient_list=2&at_send_date=20240510)

I suppose you have to give Israel points for style. Where did they get a mini-shredder, anyway?

So that UN resolution is a small step towards a two-state solution, which, however unlikely it seems today, is surely the only fair solution to the Palestine/Israel conflict.

Thanks for the fact-check on the Pro-Palestine protests taking place across the US and Canada, Mindy. With such forceful Pro-Palestine protests going on, I began wondering why we aren't hearing about protests in Arab countries too. Why aren't neighbouring Arab countries opening their doors to Palestinian refugees? Alas for the ordinary Palestinian suffering in Gaza today, the old PLO has done lasting damage to the reputation of Palestinians in general. Unless I have my history wrong, Lebanon once let in Palestinian refugees: instead of being grateful guests, the Palestinians pushed the once peaceful Lebanon into a devastating civil war. In Beirut, Christians and Muslims had lived together in peaceful co-existence, but the PLO put a stop to that, pretty much destroying the city in the process. Something similar in Jordan too, where the PLO repaid the hospitality of King Hussein by trying to overthrow his monarchy.

Anyway, that's a part of the story that we are not hearing much about right now.
I have to go to work now, but just to be clear: yeah, what Israel is doing in Gaza is a terrible thing, imo.

(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/700414260320272467/1244039383246704691/Screenshot_20240525-1700504.png?ex=66545236&is=665300b6&hm=f94fa75df6e7fc4afc1badd524965cb80b65bec272aa2371027796eb4b997221&)

Quote from: Lexi Darling on May 06, 2024, 09:40 PMAt least it's not NetanAskJeeves.

:laughing:  I don't know why this post tickled me but it did

Nurse fired for calling Gaza war "genocide" while accepting compassion award (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/nurse-fired-hesen-jabr-calling-gaza-war-genocide-compassion-award/)

God damn it, it's happening! I'm beginning to think "let Israel be declared a terror state." This sort of thing is fucking inexcusable. Period, as you people say.

 Israeli strike on UN-run school leaves 14 children dead  (https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/0606/1453278-gaza-israel/?at_medium=email&at_emailtype=retention&at_campaign=website&at_creation=News%20Newsletter%20&at_link=Automated%20Newsletter&at_recipient_list=2&at_send_date=20240606)

I'm so fucking angry right now. These cunts will justify anything by saying "HAMAS militants were there."  :rage:  :rage:  :rage:  :banghead:

Now we have this guy. I mean, I get it: his daughter was one of those kidnapped by HAMAS, but surely even he can understand that HAMAS does not equal Palestine? He's ashamed to be Irish? He should be ashamed to be Israeli, if anything. Christ. This will only further fuel anti-Palestinian sentiment in this country, and won't help anyone.


Tom Hand ashamed to be Irish  (https://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2024/0607/1453546-tom-hand-ireland-palestine/?at_medium=email&at_emailtype=retention&at_campaign=website&at_creation=News%20Newsletter%20&at_link=Automated%20Newsletter&at_recipient_list=2&at_send_date=20240607)  ::)  ::)  ::)

Your link isn't working for me, Trolls.

Sorry JJ - should work now.

Capital Pride Parade and Surround the White House for Gaza protest collide Saturday (https://gazette.com/news/wex/capital-pride-parade-and-surround-the-white-house-for-gaza-protest-collide-saturday/article_1b07441f-7072-5eb9-899a-624b770b7f21.html)

QuoteWashington, D.C., will play host to both the Capital Pride Parade and the Surround the White House for Gaza protest on Saturday.

Thousands will descend on the nation's capital, and while the two events do not appear to directly conflict, both gatherings will take place less than a week after pro-Palestinian activists disrupted multiple LGBT events.

In Philadelphia, activists halted the city's pride parade, and in New York City, protesters rallied against an LGBT group's gala.

The Capital Pride Parade will start at 3 p.m. in the area around 14th and T Street and welcomes allies and LGBT community members to a tradition that "honors our history and acknowledges the evolution of the LGBTQ+ neighborhoods in Washington, DC, while respecting the origins and importance of taking to the streets in our fight for equality."

Approximately three hours before that, at 12 p.m., thousands are anticipated to mobilize outside the White House and demand a ceasefire in Israel's war against Hamas. Outside the White House, extra fencing has been installed.

"A month ago, Biden said that the invasion of Rafah was a red line. But now, the invasion of Rafah has continued for weeks, has expanded to the entire Gaza Strip, Biden's red line is nowhere to be seen," according to the ANSWER Coalition, the group behind Saturday's rally. "Instead of following through and stopping military aid to Israel, Biden has authorized billions more in weapons shipments to be used to kill and massacre Palestinians."

wow that new John Oliver video a few days ago is powerful! about the west bank....

For the record, Arabs are semitic. The Arabs of Palestine are directly related to the semites while the white European Jews of Israel are not. So in a way, Israel are the real anti-semites.

Maybe so, but going back as far as maybe the eleventh century it's been the Jews who have been persecuted (mostly out of jealousy, it would seem, of their talent for making money) and so the phrase refers to them. Hatred against Arabs, despite the misnomer, would probably be seen as Anti-Islam.

The Big W has yer back:

Due to the root word Semite, the term is prone to being invoked as a misnomer by those who incorrectly assert (in an etymological fallacy) that it refers to racist hatred directed at "Semitic people" in spite of the fact that this grouping is an obsolete historical race concept. Likewise, such usage is erroneous; the compound word antisemitismus was first used in print in Germany in 1879[17] as a "scientific-sounding term" for Judenhass (lit. 'Jew-hatred'),[18][19][20][21][22] and it has since been used to refer to anti-Jewish sentiment alone.

If it's debunked race theory then I'm just going to call it Jewphobia.

As getting Israel banned from the Eurovision is clearly a non-starter, let them compete. I hope to see many Palestinian flags waved in protest when their representatives perform. Let chaos reign, and let every nation that considers itself humanitarian in any way show their displeasure by refusing to vote for their song. Nil points! It would be the ultimate humiliation for Israel: they couldn't say they were picked on by not being allowed to participate, but they would get the message loud and clear. Fuck them the bunch of genocidal warmongerers and child-killers.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 06, 2024, 07:41 PMFor the record, Arabs are semitic. The Arabs of Palestine are directly related to the semites while the white European Jews of Israel are not. So in a way, Israel are the real anti-semites.

That's not actually true.  Most Ashkenazi Jews still have significant DNA from the Levant/ Middle East.  And a significant portion of Jews in Israel are Sephardic or Mizrahi,  which fled from middle eastern countries to Israel after the creation of Israel made their presence much less welcome than it had previously been.

And you should know. Didn't you once boast you had an army of Jews?

Probably, that's a Patrice O'neal quote in reference to his own legal team.

In my case if I said that it was just wishful thinking,  unfortunately.

This is the fucking worst yet! This time they're not saying "ooh sorry we hit a hospital", they're actually TARGETING ONE! In advance! This is what we've come to now is it? The words human shield, if applicable, mean nothing? These scum need to die and Netan-fucking-yahoo needs to have his place in Hell booked as soon as possible. Absolutely reprehensible, and the USA will not even stand silent this time, but cheer him on. Fuck him and all his cabinet who support this into the shittiest, smallest, smelliest hole in the Ninth Circle.

News Alert: Israel targets Hamas leader Mohammad Sinwar in hospital strike in Gaza


Israel has targeted Hamas leader Mohammad Sinwar in a strike on a hospital in southern Gaza on Tuesday evening, according to a senior Israeli official and two sources familiar with the matter.

He became the militant group's de facto leader after the Israeli military killed his brother, Yahya Sinwar, last October.

Quote from: Trollheart on May 06, 2024, 08:41 PMRight. It's like there is no nuance: you either support these people or don't, and your views have to reflect that.

I will raise you a nuance and say people people can be dishonest with themselves even when acting in good faith.

(https://i.ibb.co/kgLNTgSY/Screenshot-2025-05-14-230040.png)
But the US government is totally all about "combating antisemitism", right?

The Group Behind Project 2025 Has a Plan to Crush the Pro-Palestinian Movement (https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/18/us/project-esther-heritage-foundation-palestine.html?unlocked_article_code=1.IE8.oqGQ.RKZWxZ9JgCz_&smid=url-share)

QuoteOxfordUnion
May 20, 2025

QuoteYouTuber and political commentator Hasan Piker addresses the Oxford Union about antisemitism, the actions of Israel and America's support of the state of Israel.

Mr Piker is a YouTuber, online streamer and political commentator who first gained notoreity on the streaming platform Twitch. Born in New Jersey, USA to Turkish parents, Piker grew up in Istanbul, Turkey before returning to the United States for university.

I'm not sure how everyone/anyone feels about the two killings today of the Israeli embassy staff, but personally I'd just like to say it's abhorrent. Not only is it never right to kill people for an ideal, particularly people who are on the periphery of all but a terrorist state, but still can't be said to actually have blood on their hands, but it's also pointless. As with most killings or bombings of this sort, all you do is make a martyr of the dead person(s) and engender a tougher backlash against the entity which sponsored the killing, or is seen to have done.

In other words, in the 1970s anyone killing a British MP or soldier or official and shouting "Free Northern Ireland" would only make the British government's stance tougher on Irish matters. Whoever did this, whether he had sanction or not, is a fucking idiot. He's ended two young lives, given the Israeli state a perfect chance to show why all Palestinians are killers, and will just make things even more unbearable for the people he purports to support.

Quote from: Trollheart on Today at 03:17 AMI'm not sure how everyone/anyone feels about the two killings today of the Israeli embassy staff, but personally I'd just like to say it's abhorrent. Not only is it never right to kill people for an ideal, particularly people who are on the periphery of all but a terrorist state, but still can't be said to actually have blood on their hands, but it's also pointless. As with most killings or bombings of this sort, all you do is make a martyr of the dead person(s) and engender a tougher backlash against the entity which sponsored the killing, or is seen to have done.

In other words, in the 1970s anyone killing a British MP or soldier or official and shouting "Free Northern Ireland" would only make the British government's stance tougher on Irish matters. Whoever did this, whether he had sanction or not, is a fucking idiot. He's ended two young lives, given the Israeli state a perfect chance to show why all Palestinians are killers, and will just make things even more unbearable for the people he purports to support.

The suspect's name is Elias Rodriguez, so unlikely to be Palestinian.

Doesn't matter if they're Icelandic: the phrase "Free Palestine" is all Israel needs.

Israel is going to start bringing babies back to life just to bomb them again.

Then they're going to pee in their cornflakes.

Quote from: Trollheart on Today at 03:17 AMI'm not sure how everyone/anyone feels about the two killings today of the Israeli embassy staff, but personally I'd just like to say it's abhorrent. Not only is it never right to kill people for an ideal, particularly people who are on the periphery of all but a terrorist state, but still can't be said to actually have blood on their hands, but it's also pointless. As with most killings or bombings of this sort, all you do is make a martyr of the dead person(s) and engender a tougher backlash against the entity which sponsored the killing, or is seen to have done.

In other words, in the 1970s anyone killing a British MP or soldier or official and shouting "Free Northern Ireland" would only make the British government's stance tougher on Irish matters. Whoever did this, whether he had sanction or not, is a fucking idiot. He's ended two young lives, given the Israeli state a perfect chance to show why all Palestinians are killers, and will just make things even more unbearable for the people he purports to support.

Given that the topic of Israel is the one key issue where the Trump regime have already staked out a clear policy of testing the limits of how they can repress free speech, I can hardly think of any move by an individual that has more potential to backfire dramatically on the very cause he supposedly represents. 

Quote from: Trollheart on Today at 03:17 AMI'm not sure how everyone/anyone feels about the two killings today of the Israeli embassy staff, but personally I'd just like to say it's abhorrent. Not only is it never right to kill people for an ideal, particularly people who are on the periphery of all but a terrorist state, but still can't be said to actually have blood on their hands, but it's also pointless. As with most killings or bombings of this sort, all you do is make a martyr of the dead person(s) and engender a tougher backlash against the entity which sponsored the killing, or is seen to have done.

In other words, in the 1970s anyone killing a British MP or soldier or official and shouting "Free Northern Ireland" would only make the British government's stance tougher on Irish matters. Whoever did this, whether he had sanction or not, is a fucking idiot. He's ended two young lives, given the Israeli state a perfect chance to show why all Palestinians are killers, and will just make things even more unbearable for the people he purports to support.

I hate to buy into the false flag conspiracy theories but this event seems so staged. He chanted "Free Palestinine" in the same way that protestors do and just conveniently dropped a red keffiyeh on the ground that someone calmly picked up. This just feels like a backdoor way to continue to stifle pro Palestinian protests and target protesters by further claiming they are dangerous and pro Hamas.

They are also digging into his past to highlight that he was part of PSL(Party for Socialism and Liberation)back in 2017 but he left them. Of course they will target current PSL members.

False flag? So you're accusing the Trump admin of hiring a Mexican?

Quote from: Jwb on Today at 08:32 AMFalse flag? So you're accusing the Trump admin of hiring a Mexican?

Not Trump administration AIPAC paid him off and so what he's a Mexican. He's from Chicago and the means justify the ends.

Trump isn't that smart.

This is something Israel would do.

But IDK. I do think the US has a lot of dumb people that do stuff like this. Typically it's right wing psychotic bigots but every once in a while it would come from somebody else.

There's nothing unbelievable or surprising about someone being so invested in the Palestine thing that they'd kill two people. Especially in the USA where you've got such easy access to guns.

He would obviously shout Free Palestine BTW. We've seen people do that when they set themselves on fire in protest. Pretty much every time there's an Islamic terrorist attack the perpetrater is shouting Allahu Ahkbar.

QuoteThis just feels like a backdoor way to continue to stifle pro Palestinian protests and target protesters by further claiming they are dangerous and pro Hamas.

@DJChameleon what is your personal opinion of Hamas?

Does Mr. Rodriguez have fan club and a GoFundMe yet?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 02:32 PM@DJChameleon what is your personal opinion of Hamas?

I don't support their actions but I do understand why their actions have happened as resistance to decades of occupation in that region.

Quote from: Psy-Fi on Today at 02:41 PMDoes Mr. Rodriguez have fan club and a GoFundMe yet?

No GoFundMe because he's not white like Luigi

Quote from: DJChameleon on Today at 02:46 PMI don't support their actions but I do understand why their actions have happened as resistance to decades of occupation in that region.

That doesn't sound like a strong condemnation of Hamas.

I was going to say, it would be a lot harder to claim protesters are pro-Hamas if the protesters did more to condemn Hamas in the first place. There is a lot of excuse-making and sympathising regardless of whether they say they support the actions or not.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 02:32 PMThere's nothing unbelievable or surprising about someone being so invested in the Palestine thing that they'd kill two people. Especially in the USA where you've got such easy access to guns.

He would obviously shout Free Palestine BTW. We've seen people do that when they set themselves on fire in protest. Pretty much every time there's an Islamic terrorist attack the perpetrater is shouting Allahu Ahkbar.

@DJChameleon what is your personal opinion of Hamas?

Not a fan of their politics or their methods but I support them as the only force of resistance against extremely inhumane and unimaginable oppression.

But the whole "do you condemn hamas" bit in the context of a genocide is a bit tone deaf at the very least.

The Ukranian military is full of Nazis that commit extremely heinous torture on ethnic Russians. I don't support either of those things but I still support their resistance to Russia's colonial invasion.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 02:53 PMThat doesn't sound like a strong condemnation of Hamas.

I was going to say, it would be a lot harder to claim protesters are pro-Hamas if the protesters did more to condemn Hamas in the first place. There is a lot of excuse-making and sympathising regardless of whether they say they support the actions or not.

If you were Palestinian and your entire family was destroyed in a bombing campaign by Israel, would you condemn Hamas?

I condemn the USSR & especially Stalinism but I supported their position in WW2.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:01 PMIf you were Palestinian and your entire family was destroyed in a bombing campaign by Israel, would you condemn Hamas?

This doesn't apply to US-based protestors.

DJ isn't Palestinian and his family wasn't killed by Israel (I assume).

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:06 PMThis doesn't apply to US-based protestors.

DJ isn't Palestinian and his family wasn't killed by Israel (I assume).

No, but he has basic empathy which is why he said he understands them while condemning their methods.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:09 PMNo, but he has basic empathy which is why he said he understands them while condemning their methods.

But I'm asking DJ does he condemn Hamas. I understand why it's happening as well but that wasn't the question.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:11 PMBut I'm asking DJ does he condemn Hamas. I understand why it's happening as well but that wasn't the question.

Why does it matter?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 02:53 PMThat doesn't sound like a strong condemnation of Hamas.

I was going to say, it would be a lot harder to claim protesters are pro-Hamas if the protesters did more to condemn Hamas in the first place. There is a lot of excuse-making and sympathising regardless of whether they say they support the actions or not.

If protesters say they condemn their actions then they do whether you want to believe it or not. You are basically repeating Zionist talking points by making a big deal about condemning or not while grouping the two beliefs together. You can be pro Palestinian and condemn Hamas at the same time. Its not that wild of an idea.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:12 PMWhy does it matter?

Its constantly the same thing that Zionists do/say to excuse the current genocide thats happening.

I, personally, do not condemn Hamas's resistance.

I condemn certain methods & beliefs but who am I as a spoiled westerner who hasn't faced even a crumb of the suffering that they have to judge how they resist?

It's a question only ever brought up in this context because they are Arab and westerners have spent the last few decades being told that Arabs are scary and violent.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Today at 03:15 PMIts constantly the same thing that Zionists do/say to excuse the current genocide thats happening.

Jimmy Jazz, I'm pretty sure, isn't a Zionist.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:12 PMWhy does it matter?

Read the previous posts. I explained why.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Today at 03:14 PMIf protesters say they condemn their actions then they do whether you want to believe it or not. You are basically repeating Zionist talking points by making a big deal about condemning or not while grouping the two beliefs together. You can be pro Palestinian and condemn Hamas at the same time. Its not that wild of an idea.

Yes you can so condemn Hamas. Do you condemn Hamas, yes or no?

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:20 PMJimmy Jazz, I'm pretty sure, isn't a Zionist.

I'm not. I've made it clear.

I 100% condemn Israel's occupation of Palestine and the genocide they are committing.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:22 PMRead the previous posts. I explained why.

No, you didn't. You stated that it's a good thing if protesters separated themselves from Hamas as if it's a self evident thing.

Why does it matter?

So it'd make it harder for the state to suppress them?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:22 PMRead the previous posts. I explained why.

Yes you can so condemn Hamas. Do you condemn Hamas, yes or no?

I already said I do and you didn't accept the answer why do I need to constantly repeat myself? Pay attention

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:20 PMJimmy Jazz, I'm pretty sure, isn't a Zionist.

I didn't say he was but he's repeating all of their talking points and propaganda.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Today at 03:29 PMI already said I do and you didn't accept the answer why do I need to constantly repeat myself? Pay attention

Do you condemn Ukraine?

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:20 PMI, personally, do not condemn Hamas's resistance.

I condemn certain methods & beliefs but who am I as a spoiled westerner who hasn't faced even a crumb of the suffering that they have to judge how they resist?

It's a question only ever brought up in this context because they are Arab and westerners have spent the last few decades being told that Arabs are scary and violent.

No it isn't. The closest historical parallel I can think of is The Troubles in NI. The IRA aren't Arabs but I would expect the same thing from Irish Republicans, you can object and resist NI's status without condoning the IRA. My granddad was a Republican from Belfast and even he drew the line at murdering civilians, which is what the IRA did.

If you say you don't condemn the resistance when we are talking specifically about Hamas then you yourself are conflating being pro-Palestine with Hamas. You can't keep saying they're different things and then keep bringing resistance into it when we mention Hamas.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:29 PMNo, you didn't. You stated that it's a good thing if protesters separated themselves from Hamas as if it's a self evident thing.

Why does it matter?

So it'd make it harder for the state to suppress them?

I said they don't make it clear enough and these past few posts are showing it.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Today at 03:29 PMI already said I do and you didn't accept the answer why do I need to constantly repeat myself? Pay attention

You really didn't mate there was a caveat attached but you can have another go.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:32 PMNo it isn't. The closest historical parallel I can think of is The Troubles in NI. The IRA aren't Arabs but I would expect the same thing from Irish republicans, you can object and resist NI's status without condoning the IRA. My granddad was a Republican from Belfast and even he drew the line at murdering civilians, which is what the IRA did.

If you say you don't condemn the resistance when we are talking specifically about Hamas then you yourself are conflating being pro-Palestine with Hamas. You can't keep saying they're different things and then keep bringing resistance into it when we mention Hamas.

No, I'm not.

I'm just pointing out how ridiculous it is to hyperfocus on whether or not people condemn the only force of resistance to a literal genocide. If there were alternative forces of resistance I'd condemn Hamas 100%, but there aren't so I support their resistance even though I don't agree with their methods. Especially after learning what Israel did during The Great March of Return and even more after learning that Israel did everything in its power to suppress all alternative resistance groups while funding Hamas and propping them up knowing how easy it would be to manipulate morons into supporting Israel's invasion when the only resistance is a hyper reactionary & violent organization.

I don't care if it makes poor little Jimmy Jazz uncomfortable or if it makes it easier for the state to conflate Palestinian support with terrorist support as if they wouldn't do that anyways.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:40 PMYou really didn't mate there was a caveat attached but you can have another go.

Yes, he did.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:35 PMI said they don't make it clear enough and these past few posts are showing it.

So you think my opinion is representative of an entire movement now?

Me and DJ have clearly differing opinions but since you want to use the one far more sympathetic to hamas as the representative of the whole movement it just exposes a want to paint them all as pro Hamas.

And the silly thing is you're doing thing you are constantly a victim of.

"How am I supposed be charitable enough to think this whole movement isn't pro terrorism when they have a nuanced perspective on Hamas."

Well, Jimmy Jazz. The same way I am charitable enough to say you are not a transphobe despite harping on trans people in sports or that you're not a Zionist despite repeating Zionist talking points.

That same nuance I apply to you knowing you are not the raging bigot others have accused you of being is why support Hamas' resistance.

I'm not uncomfortable.

If you are asked if you condemn Hamas and your response to that question is "well I condemn this particular thing they did but..." then it isn't a condemnation of Hamas. You are weaseling your way out of it. And when you attempt to bring the resistance into it as a defence, you then merge the two together, something you would argue are not the same thing.  ::)

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 03:57 PMSo you think my opinion is representative of an entire movement now?

No because I've already said you can condemn Hamas and oppose the occupation at the same time. I said some people who oppose the occupation do not condemn Hamas clearly enough. And here you are.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 03:59 PMI'm not uncomfortable.

If you are asked if you condemn Hamas and your response to that question is "well I condemn this particular thing they did but..." then it isn't a condemnation of Hamas. You are weaseling your way out of it. And when you attempt to bring the resistance into it as a defence, you then merge the two together, something you would argue are not the same thing.  ::)

I'm not weaseling my way out of anything. I support Hamas' resistance.

My perspective isn't everybody else's.

And despite supporting Hamas' resistance I am not the defacto voice of an entire movement that isn't a monolith to begin with. I'm just some asshole with an opinion.



DJ, though, he very clearly stated he condemns Hamas as a whole. Something very different from what I said. Him saying he understands them isn't a caveat. Yet you still paint him with the same stroke as me. You see why I think it doesn't matter?

And DJ is far more of a representative than I am. He's the one actually out there actively protesting. But I guess my voice ot does his some how.



Now, do you condemn Ukraine, JJ?

Because neither of you have condemned Hamas, DJ said 'I don't support their actions', that's not a condemnation it's just a lack of support for something they did :laughing:

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 04:17 PMBecause neither of you have condemned Hamas, DJ said 'I don't support their actions', that's not a condemnation it's just a lack of support for something they did :laughing:

No, he said he condemns Hamas but understands why they exist.

I said I don't condemn hamas but I don't support their methods or beliefs.

How do you have a lower reading comprehension than a retarded juggalo from Utah?

Well I certainly condemn Hummus. Bloody hate the stuff.

Quote from: Trollheart on Today at 05:43 PMWell I certainly condemn Hummus. Bloody hate the stuff.

Was it Sabra?

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 04:20 PMNo, he said he condemns Hamas but understands why they exist.

I said I don't condemn hamas but I don't support their methods or beliefs.

How do you have a lower reading comprehension than a retarded juggalo from Utah?

Let's keep it friendly, people. Enough with the insults please. Remember, a juggalo is for life, not just for Christmas.

Edit: I don't know what Sabra is.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 04:20 PMNo, he said he condemns Hamas but understands why they exist.

I said I don't condemn hamas but I don't support their methods or beliefs.

How do you have a lower reading comprehension than a retarded juggalo from Utah?

So you would say "I don't support their actions" is a condemnation of them?

If I had said, I don't support building the wall or the trade tariffs, that would be enough for you to say I condemn Donald Trump?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 06:21 PMSo you would say "I don't support their actions" is a condemnation of them?

If I had said, I don't support building the wall or the trade tariffs, that would be enough for you to say I condemn Donald Trump?

I think the clarification that he does condemn Hamas later on was enough.

But hey, maybe everybody but you is wrong here in their interpretation of what he said.

Do you condemn Ukraine, though?

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 06:26 PMI think the clarification that he does condemn Hamas later on was enough.

But hey, maybe everybody but you is wrong here in their interpretation of what he said.

Do you condemn Ukraine, though?

Let's see then.

@DJChameleon do you condemn Hamas?

What's with this Piers Morgan cosplay?

Quote from: Auroras In Ice on Today at 06:32 PMWhat's with this Piers Morgan cosplay?

DJ said he thinks it was a staged attack to claim Palestine protestors are pro-Hamas so I thought I'd ask him if he condemns Hamas.

Not sure what's wrong with that.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Today at 03:29 PMI already said I do and you didn't accept the answer why do I need to constantly repeat myself? Pay attention

Hmmm.

He needs to explicitly say the words "I condemn Hamas" before you accept it? That's weird.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 06:39 PMHmmm.

He needs to explicitly say the words "I condemn Hamas" before you accept it? That's weird.

"I already said I do"

He's referring to something he said before. What he said before was that he doesn't support their actions. Lack of support isn't condemnation.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 06:43 PM"I already said I do"

He's referring to something he said before. What he said before was that he doesn't support their actions. Lack of support isn't condemnation.

That was him clarifying what he meant by that and everybody else but you took it to mean he condemns Hamas. And you're still on him over it.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 06:45 PMThat was him clarifying what he meant by that and everybody else but you took it to mean he condemns Hamas. And you're still on him over it.

Because you keep quoting me saying he's said something when he hasn't.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 06:49 PMBecause you keep quoting me saying he's said something when he hasn't.

So it's my fault that you're the only one who doesn't understand that he condemns Hamas?

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Today at 06:50 PMSo it's my fault that you're the only one who doesn't understand that he condemns Hamas?

I don't think you understand what condemnation means mate.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 06:43 PM"I already said I do"

He's referring to something he said before. What he said before was that he doesn't support their actions. Lack of support isn't condemnation.

I dunno, it's pretty clear to me that the implication of this quote

QuoteYou can be pro Palestinian and condemn Hamas at the same time. Its not that wild of an idea.

coupled with his earlier statement is that this is his take, i.e. he condemns Hamas but supports Palestine and acknowledges that there are different layers to the stances on this. We're all discussing the nuance of what different elements make up the idea of "condemnation" but you seem to have this idea that it's some kind of black or white "do you condemn or do you not" thing.

Is it the phrasing of it as "you can" that's tripping you up? Like would it be clearer to you if he had said "I can be pro Palestinian and condemn Hamas at the same time"?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 06:54 PMI don't think you understand what condemnation means mate.

Okay.

Do you condemn Ukraine?

You're assuming that's his position and it could well be but it isn't what he said.

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 07:03 PMYou're assuming that's his position and it could well be but it isn't what he said.

Yes. Everybody but you is wrong here.

I think he did say it, he just used the phrasing he did to emphasize the nuance. I dunno if it's a huge ask to read between the lines.

Do you condemn Insane Clown Posse?

Quote from: Lexi of the Dawn on Today at 07:06 PMI think he did say it, he just used the phrasing he did to emphasize the nuance. I dunno if it's a huge ask to read between the lines.

You're assuming it though. He said it's possible to do both not that he himself holds both positions. I already know it's possible to do both. That wasn't the question I was asking.

The whole thing could have just been done if he'd have answered clearly like when I made my position on Israel clear after he hinted yet again that I'm a Zionist.

Would you honestly say I've condemned Trump if you asked me to condemn him and I replied that I didn't support policy x or policy y? Would that be enough for you?

Quote from: jimmy jazz on Today at 07:11 PMYou're assuming it though. He said it's possible to do both not that he himself holds both positions. I already know it's possible to do both. That wasn't the question I was asking.

The whole thing could have just been done if he'd have answered clearly like when I made my position on Israel clear after he hinted yet again that I'm a Zionist.

Would you honestly say I've condemned Trump if you asked me to condemn him and I replied that I didn't support policy x or policy y? Would that be enough for you?

He didn't say that. He said he didn't support their actions as a whole.

It's like saying "I don't support Trump's actions" rather than "I don't support these specific actions Trump did".

The first statement is a fair thing to infer they don't support Trump from especially when they follow up with a "I already said I condemn Trump".

It's fairly clear to me.

But what is not clear is whether or not you condemn Insane Clown Posse.