Something Completely Different

(https://keralakaumudi.com/web-news/en/2023/06/NMAN0421266/image/sweden-islam.1.2235044.jpg)

This debate has come up again in Scandinavia. Part of the reason is a certain person in Sweden has been burning the quran in protest and these sort of things affect their relationship with Turkey who has a say in whether or not to grant Sweden a membership in NATO.

The bible has been burned on various occasions, once at a black metal concert I went to.

So this debate can touch upon various considerations. What do you think? Should you be allowed to burn religious texts in public, for example as part of a protest?

I'm an American, so yes, absolutely, as long as its done safely and doesn't put anyone at risk of harm. You should also be able to burn any flag too.

I dunno if this is an unpopular opinion, but to me it depends on the circumstances. I don't have a problem with someone burning a pride flag, for example, but a bunch of dudes showing up to a pride event and burning pride flags while chanting hate speech? I think the people at the event have every right to see that as harassment and as a threat.

For the record, I don't think the act of burning the symbol itself should be punishable by law. But I think there is a line where hate speech becomes harassment.

I'm leaning towards the idea that it should be against the law.

Here's an article published today about what Denmark is planning to do:-

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66602814 : Denmark plans jail term for burning Quran in public.

...and these are the sentences that convinced me:-

QuoteThe justice minister was adamant the proposed change in the law [so that Quran burning is illegal] was not targeting verbal or written expressions or satirical drawings. But he said burning religious texts served no other purpose than creating division and hatred.

"It is a cornerstone of our democracy that you have the right to express yourself," said Deputy Prime Minister Jakob Ellemann-Jensen. "You also have to behave properly."

The ban is expected to be added to a section of the criminal code that bans public insult of a foreign state, its flag or other symbol.

Most countries prob have on their books various rules about public abuse of flags, etc. already and I don't think it's a stretch that religous books should be protected in the same way.
So I guess I take a different position from you, SGR, about what should be allowed to go down on the streets; if yours is the American free-for-all way, mine is more the polite European way I suppose. 

I agree that burning a book might not be nice, but looking merely at the act itself, I think it indicates opposing the text/teachings contained in those pages rather than necessarily the people who believe it. It doesn't equate to hatred towards people or states to me, even if people or states are outraged by it.

I also don't like special rules for the Quran. If I can burn the Torah, the book of Mormon or the bible, I should also be allowed to burn the Quran.

It's just a book. There are millions of them. If it's such a sin, let God sort out the book burners in the afterlife.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 26, 2023, 12:35 AMI dunno if this is an unpopular opinion, but to me it depends on the circumstances. I don't have a problem with someone burning a pride flag, for example, but a bunch of dudes showing up to a pride event and burning pride flags while chanting hate speech? I think the people at the event have every right to see that as harassment and as a threat.

I wouldn't agree personally with the behavior by any means, but I wouldn't support the government banning it.

On the same token, I'd whole-heartedly support pride supporters burning bibles, flags, and crosses outside churches, MAGA rallies, etc.

I know some conservatives who scoff at the idea at burning the American flag, some who even say it should be an arrestable offense - and I've always said to them: "Can you not see that the beauty of America isn't that flag, but rather your freedom to burn it?"

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 26, 2023, 01:25 AMI also don't like special rules for the Quran. If I can burn the Torah, the book of Mormon or the bible, I should also be allowed to burn the Quran.

It's just a book. There are millions of them. If it's such a sin, let God sort out the book burners in the afterlife.

(https://gifdb.com/images/high/men-chilling-cheers-sc5g6tyvqrbe8rpt.gif)

People should be free to voice their opinions, no matter how nasty or vile - but as soon as they become violent, that's when the line is crossed.

Quote from: SGR on Aug 26, 2023, 02:01 AMI wouldn't agree with the behavior by any means, but I wouldn't support the government banning it.

I wouldn't agree with the government banning it either. But I think there is a point where it becomes a safety issue rather than a freedom of expression issue. If a bunch of Nazis showed up at a pride event making noise and harassing people, I don't think the people at the event to have a positive experience should invariably have to just sit back and say "welp, it's those Nazis' right to free speech, nothing we can do".

I think there is middle ground between the government outright banning public displays of protest against whoever and everyone in public having to be subjected to loud hateful threats and being helpless to do anything about it.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 26, 2023, 02:41 AMI wouldn't agree with the government banning it either. But I think there is a point where it becomes a safety issue rather than a freedom of expression issue. If a bunch of Nazis showed up at a pride event making noise and harassing people, I don't think the people at the event to have a positive experience should invariably have to just sit back and say "welp, it's those Nazis' right to free speech, nothing we can do".

This reminds me of how it was here some years back. Since we moved to this town, we've participated in the local pride parade (which was today actually).

In 2016, the parade was tiny compared to today and members of The Nordic Resistance Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Resistance_Movement) were standing on street corners and taking pictures of everyone, like they were documenting who the participants were.

The year after, they held a demonstration here against the "gay lobby" (whatever that is). We're talking uniformed nutbags marching through the streets under fucking banners.

The result? It led to a huge debate in the local newspaper and elsewhere about stuff like freedom of speech, hate groups, etc. Many felt the police had acted wrongly because they had protected the Nazis (who were, despite everything, behaving peacefully) against people who tried interfering with the demonstration.

Anyways.. after that, the pride parade BLEW UP. After those Nazis were here, I'm sure the number of pride parade participants quadrupled and it was like the whole town was out to cheer it on.

So I'm not necessarily of the opinion that allowing hateful expression necessarily leads to more hate. It can have the opposite effect too and it can be good to get the trolls out of the caves and into the sun for all to see.

I'm generally for expressing various ideas in public so they can battle it out. That way, bad ideas get pulled out of their hiding places (echo chambers) into a space where they likely get defeated.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 26, 2023, 07:52 PMI'm generally for expressing various ideas in public so they can battle it out. That way, bad ideas get pulled out of their hiding places (echo chambers) into a space where they likely get defeated.

In theory I agree. I'm just pessimistic that reason would prevail in a place like America in these situations. If people here can see literal Nazis giving the salute while holding "trans people are groomers" banners showing up at a pride event and still be transphobic, it doesn't feel like anything could "defeat" that idea in their eyes. I would like to believe in what you say, but in my experience living in America as a trans person it doesn't feel like letting fascism fester and spread in broad daylight helps much of anything.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 26, 2023, 09:53 PMI would like to believe in what you say, but in my experience living in America as a trans person it doesn't feel like letting fascism fester and spread in broad daylight helps much of anything.

Here, I'd say it festers and spreads in the dark, like promoted by algorithms onto people's news feeds, Facebook feeds, youtube suggestions and incel forums and online echo chambers where the ideas go unchallenged. Then they are defeated in broad daylight.

But if you think these ideas are actually competitive just out and about in the US, that is of course deeply worrying 😐

Yes for every book other than the Quran. If you burn a quran that's like sending out a beacon for crazy Muslims to come cut your head off.  I think that poses a public safety hazard.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 26, 2023, 07:52 PMThis reminds me of how it was here some years back. Since we moved to this town, we've participated in the local pride parade (which was today actually).

In 2016, the parade was tiny compared to today and members of The Nordic Resistance Movement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Resistance_Movement) were standing on street corners and taking pictures of everyone, like they were documenting who the participants were.

The year after, they held a demonstration here against the "gay lobby" (whatever that is). We're talking uniformed nutbags marching through the streets under fucking banners.

The result? It led to a huge debate in the local newspaper and elsewhere about stuff like freedom of speech, hate groups, etc. Many felt the police had acted wrongly because they had protected the Nazis (who were, despite everything, behaving peacefully) against people who tried interfering with the demonstration.

Anyways.. after that, the pride parade BLEW UP. After those Nazis were here, I'm sure the number of pride parade participants quadrupled and it was like the whole town was out to cheer it on.

So I'm not necessarily of the opinion that allowing hateful expression necessarily leads to more hate. It can have the opposite effect too and it can be good to get the trolls out of the caves and into the sun for all to see.

I'm generally for expressing various ideas in public so they can battle it out. That way, bad ideas get pulled out of their hiding places (echo chambers) into a space where they likely get defeated.

this seems to presume that hateful ideas have no memetic potential. I think that the fact we saw westerners getting converted to go fight for ISIS shows you exactly how psychologically potent propaganda can be, even from people who you would regard as absolute theocratic lunatics.  Ideas are great and all but people are driven more by presentation.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 27, 2023, 01:50 AMthis seems to presume that hateful ideas have no memetic potential. I think that the fact we saw westerners getting converted to go fight for ISIS shows you exactly how psychologically potent propaganda can be, even from people who you would regard as absolute theocratic lunatics.  Ideas are great and all but people are driven more by presentation.

That'd be a strawman.

I don't wanna go on a rant, but suffice to say I have a pretty firm grasp of meme theory and what might make an idea competitive or not. Firmer than most, I think, it being based in evolutionary theory.

Tell me why I'm wrong then lol. Why do you think the good ideas will necessarily win in the end?

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 27, 2023, 01:35 AMYes for every book other than the Quran. If you burn a quran that's like sending out a beacon for crazy Muslims to come cut your head off.  I think that poses a public safety hazard.

Agreed. I voted yes before I saw that in the OP it was a Quran. No no no.

Burn every single other holy text but NOT the Quran. It's like you guys don't learn. Don't burn the Quran or draw pictures of Mohammad to make fun of him. Crazy Muslim extremists will come for you and shoot up/bomb where you are.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Aug 28, 2023, 02:33 AMAgreed. I voted yes before I saw that in the OP it was a Quran. No no no.

Burn every single other holy text but NOT the Quran. It's like you guys don't learn. Don't burn the Quran or draw pictures of Mohammad to make fun of him. Crazy Muslim extremists will come for you and shoot up/bomb where you are.

But also at the same time understand that burning any book other than the quran is just gay.  And the punishment for that is people mocking you and going "I bet you wouldn't do that with the Quran!"

One of ny favorite videos of all time was WBC burning a Quran that was wrapped in the American flag.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 28, 2023, 03:09 AMBut also at the same time understand that burning any book other than the quran is just gay.  And the punishment for that is people mocking you and going "I bet you wouldn't do that with the Quran!"

I wouldn't personally burn any other book but I'm okay with people burning them just not the Quran. Also who cares if people mock you and say you wouldn't do that with a Quran. Damn skippy I wouldn't. The wrath that would be brought down upon your head would be swift by the crazies.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 28, 2023, 12:40 AMTell me why I'm wrong then lol. Why do you think the good ideas will necessarily win in the end?

I'm hopeful, but I don't think that necessarily has to happen. You're wrong in assuming I believe only good ideas are competitive.

Trying to add some more to this topic, burning the Quran is obviously very directly attacking Islam. That can create a mobilization in opposition and also have a segregating effect, helping to create an environment where influencing religious people with better ideas only becomes more difficult. It doesn't have to happen, but it can.

A less direct way to fight ideas that I'd generally prefer to causing high levels of conflict is working to change the environment that ideas exist in. Religion and other falsehoods thrive in an environment where people don't know what's true or false, so a good education available to all that helps people separate fact from fiction will help create an environment where those ideas do worse.

Certain misogynistic memes do great in an environment made up of mostly frustrated male virgins. Including girls into that environment could change that drastically.

Part of Meta's social medias became environments where memes promoting eating disorders, suicide and violence against certain minorities became competitive. They could make it less so by making their algorithms not promote violence and help steer vulnerable teenagers towards healthier choices.

So I think people should sometimes focus more on the environments bad ideas thrive in because if you don't change that, you can possibly beat a bad idea down, but it may just come back up again - or another bad one will take its place.

I say we burn every religious text and start from zero.

Of course if someone was like 'shall I burn the Qur'an?' I'd be like nonono please don't, but that's not the same as thinking it should be punished by law. It's just a really dumb thing to do

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 28, 2023, 08:32 AMI'm hopeful, but I don't think that necessarily has to happen. You're wrong in assuming I believe only good ideas are competitive.

Trying to add some more to this topic, burning the Quran is obviously very directly attacking Islam. That can create a mobilization in opposition and also have a segregating effect, helping to create an environment where influencing religious people with better ideas only becomes more difficult. It doesn't have to happen, but it can.

A less direct way to fight ideas that I'd generally prefer to causing high levels of conflict is working to change the environment that ideas exist in. Religion and other falsehoods thrive in an environment where people don't know what's true or false, so a good education available to all that helps people separate fact from fiction will help create an environment where those ideas do worse.

Certain misogynistic memes do great in an environment made up of mostly frustrated male virgins. Including girls into that environment could change that drastically.

Part of Meta's social medias became environments where memes promoting eating disorders, suicide and violence against certain minorities became competitive. They could make it less so by making their algorithms not promote violence and help steer vulnerable teenagers towards healthier choices.

So I think people should sometimes focus more on the environments bad ideas thrive in because if you don't change that, you can possibly beat a bad idea down, but it may just come back up again - or another bad one will take its place.

I would love to hear how this one is supposed to work.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 05, 2023, 04:25 PMI would love to hear how this one is supposed to work.

Yeah, I'd imagine dudes are in those spaces because they've already been rejected by girls.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 05, 2023, 04:25 PMI would love to hear how this one is supposed to work.

I'd assume by some special kind of young lady stumbling over a misogynistic incel community, signing up and actually staomach sticking around. And maybe this happening more than once.

Not saying it's likely.