What makes a song a classic? I guess it needs to be instantly recognisable (your Stairways to Heaven, your Bats out of Hell, your Satisfactions), usually needs to have been in the charts or on the radio and often is a genre-crossing song, though not always. Anyhoo, post up your favourite classics. Three per member, no pushing and shoving please or I'm turning around and we're going back home.
"After the Gold Rush" - Neil Young
"Born in the USA" - Bruce Springsteen
"The Whole of the Moon" - The Waterboys
Classics in my eyes should span generations in appeal. They should be songs that your granddad can enjoy, and songs that even your dumb zoomer cousin can admit to enjoying.
Couldn't agree more. They may also - probably will and have - crop up as covers by later artists.
"Father and Son" - Cat Stevens
"House of the Rising Sun" - Animals
"No Woman No Cry" - Bob Marley and the Wailers
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 01:14 AMCouldn't agree more. They may also - probably will and have - crop up as covers by later artists.
Woah, woah, woah - what happened to "three per member"? Now it's "three per post"? :laughing:
I will say though, I might amend my original qualification for classic. There are many classic rap songs for example that most won't be able to get their grandfather to enjoy because they simply didn't grow up with the genre and so they detest it as being 'foreign and weird'. So maybe I'd add to that - "...or, if in 45 years, a young man now who will be a grandfather then can enjoy it...along with his then grandkids..."
I didn't mean three per member and stop, duh. I meant three per member at a time, so yeah, three per post but even so that wouldn't really work as someone might make a triple post, putting up nine videos.
Ah, you know what I mean. Where's my cup of milky tea and the toast with the crusts cut off?
To your other suggestion: yeah, rap and punk are sort of genres that will never really be appreciated or even understood by those outside the genre. I mean, "God Save the Queen" might be a punk classic, but it ain't appearing on any "Songs of the 80s" compilations or anything, while even a band like NWA or Public Enemy may have huge hits, but the general population won't know or recognise them. So yeah, classic would definitely need to be, for want of another phrase, something anyone can enjoy.
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 02:08 AMTo your other suggestion: yeah, rap and punk are sort of genres that will never really be appreciated or even understood by those outside the genre. I mean, "God Save the Queen" might be a punk classic, but it ain't appearing on any "Songs of the 80s" compilations or anything
Well that might also just be because it's from the 70s. :laughing:
Quote from: Lexi Darling on Jan 31, 2025, 02:18 AMWell that might also just be because it's from the 70s. :laughing:
I just KNEW some smartarse was going to say that! :laughing: :banghead: I freely admit I am not a fan of the Gender Guns. Just an example as I really couldn't think of another punk song that could conceivably fit the criterion.
And I'm still waiting for that cup of milky tea.
And I only like brown bread: what's this white shit?
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 03:34 AMI just KNEW some smartarse was going to say that! :laughing: :banghead: I freely admit I am not a fan of the Gender Guns. Just an example as I really couldn't think of another punk song that could conceivably fit the criterion.
And I'm still waiting for that cup of milky tea.
And I only like brown bread: what's this white shit?
Come on Trolls, really?
The first one I can't see, the second one I don't know ("Eloise" would be my pick for a Damned song people other than their fans know) and Iggy? Sure but again we're talking "Real Wild Child" if you want to get outside the punk arena. This is what I mean: other than the Weapons of Fornication I can't think of a single punk band who, famous as they may be within their fanbase, would be known outside of that, much less considered a classic. Even GSTQ is only really known due to the controversy it kicked off. That's the problem with punk (and hip-hop to an extent): loved and adored by its fans, but unknown to others. Ask any man, woman or gender fluid person walking down the street to name a classic punk song, ten to one they'll have a stab at Johnny and the boys, but will all go for the same song, if they even know it.
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 04:01 AMThe first one I can't see, the second one I don't know ("Eloise" would be my pick for a Damned song people other than their fans know) and Iggy? Sure but again we're talking "Real Wild Child" if you want to get outside the punk arena. This is what I mean: other than the Weapons of Fornication I can't think of a single punk band who, famous as they may be within their fanbase, would be known outside of that, much less considered a classic. Even GSTQ is only really known due to the controversy it kicked off. That's the problem with punk (and hip-hop to an extent): loved and adored by its fans, but unknown to others. Ask any man, woman or gender fluid person walking down the street to name a classic punk song, ten to one they'll have a stab at Johnny and the boys, but will all go for the same song, if they even know it.
I get it. They certainly didn't reach any kind of critical mass in their day, that's for sure - and to your point, most people couldn't name them. But, I still think they could fit my criterion, that being that your granddad could enjoy them (they're not "too aggressive, noisy or scary" [think where rock music went after with hair metal, thrash/death metal, nu metal, etc]) but they still have enough edge and attitude that your dumb zoomer cousin could hear them and think: "Yeah, that's kinda lit, I like that". :laughing: I don't think the fame, popularity, or collective mass consciousness of a song alone is the most important contributor to what makes it a classic. Real classics you can show to large numbers of varied people who've never heard of it before, and they'll still like it. There are of course so many songs out there that are downright excellent, but just weren't released in the 'right place/right time' to really catch on contemporarily.
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 04:01 AMAsk any man, woman or gender fluid person walking down the street to name a classic punk song, ten to one they'll have a stab at Johnny and the boys, but will all go for the same song, if they even know it.
Just to belabor the point a bit, I'd be willing to bet that I could walk down the street in many, maybe most places in America and ask 10 random people to name a classic Al Green song, and my hit rate at best would be 1/10 on a bad day or 3/10 on a good day (obviously, the older the demographic I ask, the better my hit rate would be), and there's probably a lot of reasons for that - firstly just how far removed we are from the '70s, but also how people consume music now (treating much of it as disposable or less valuable) - but it certainly isn't indicative of whether or not Al Green has classics, because he does. And I'd be willing to bet that many of those people who couldn't actually name the tracks would know them/recognize them if they heard them.
I guess all I'm saying is that we might need a broader, or looser definition of what might qualify a track as a classic. As time goes on, many of these songs we hold as 'classics' today will fall off in popular memory, even though some will remain. Does that make them 'less classic'?
Yeah I take your point but don't agree with it. To me, a classic is like a great novel - everyone, whether they've heard/read it or not, will know (of) it, from the youngest to the oldest and regardless of status. Look at say Nineteen Eighty-Four or David Copperfield or Les Miserables or Moby Dick: everyone knows these, or has heard of them. Admittedly, much of this is due to the fact they have consumed them in other media - TV, film or even as part of maybe some album soundtrack that might mention them (Sherlock Holmes being a good example of this being done more than once). But then take a great novel you like, but that isn't universally known. It doesn't make it any less of a classic in your eyes, but not in the eyes of those who consume the more classic literature. Everyone knows of Paradise Lost and Inferno, even if they have never, and would never read them.
It's the same, I feel, with classic music. Everyone knows Stairway to Heaven, everyone knows Sexual Healing, everyone knows Hotel California etc. So I think for a song to be regarded as a classic it must be a) instantly recognisable by all b) timeless, as in, its attraction doesn't dim with the passing of years/decades and c) a song that usually evokes some sort of feeling when heard, and I don't just mean emotion, as most songs do that: I mean a song that evokes memories. Does STH not make you feel like you were when you were younger and listening to it for the first time? Does Bat out of Hell not remind you of where you were the first time you heard it? And so on.
Anyway, I must admit, I didn't expect this to be a debate on what a classic song is: I thought we'd just post videos! :laughing: But whatever; it's good that it has at least sparked some interest, so on we go.
Here's some grandparent approved classics. Of course my youngest grandparent is 93, and I can't speak for zoomers, but I'm sure some good old swing has survived in public consciousness to some degree. Maybe not. But to be fair I don't know if zoomers know Cat Stevens or The Waterboys either.
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 03:31 PMYeah I take your point but don't agree with it. To me, a classic is like a great novel - everyone, whether they've heard/read it or not, will know (of) it, from the youngest to the oldest and regardless of status. Look at say Nineteen Eighty-Four or David Copperfield or Les Miserables or Moby Dick: everyone knows these, or has heard of them. Admittedly, much of this is due to the fact they have consumed them in other media - TV, film or even as part of maybe some album soundtrack that might mention them (Sherlock Holmes being a good example of this being done more than once). But then take a great novel you like, but that isn't universally known. It doesn't make it any less of a classic in your eyes, but not in the eyes of those who consume the more classic literature. Everyone knows of Paradise Lost and Inferno, even if they have never, and would never read them.
It's the same, I feel, with classic music. Everyone knows Stairway to Heaven, everyone knows Sexual Healing, everyone knows Hotel California etc. So I think for a song to be regarded as a classic it must be a) instantly recognisable by all b) timeless, as in, its attraction doesn't dim with the passing of years/decades and c) a song that usually evokes some sort of feeling when heard, and I don't just mean emotion, as most songs do that: I mean a song that evokes memories. Does STH not make you feel like you were when you were younger and listening to it for the first time? Does Bat out of Hell not remind you of where you were the first time you heard it? And so on.
Anyway, I must admit, I didn't expect this to be a debate on what a classic song is: I thought we'd just post videos! :laughing: But whatever; it's good that it has at least sparked some interest, so on we go.
I understand where you're coming from Trolls, I do. And to a large extent I do agree that your assessment is a fair one for many as to what constitutes a classic. But I would argue that our media ecosystem has become much bigger and more diverse over the past 50 years or so, the creation of art has become much more democratized, and our collective consumption of art (something that used to be rather constrained by language, the radio airwaves, the local theatre/book store, etc), which used to be pretty insular, is now very cosmopolitan in nature - and most of this is due to advancements in technology and the internet. Unlike when "Stairway to Heaven" came out in the '70s, or George Orwell's
1984 hit shelves in the late '40s, today we are absolutely spoiled for choice. Where once young people were probably largely reading many of the same books, listening to the same music, or watching the same movies, today I doubt that is the case.
So put simply, I think it's probably much more difficult for a piece of art (music, book or movie) to overcome the hurdles and pierce the popular consciousness enough to reach the same level of collective consumption and enjoyment that the classics you listed did years ago. And for probably many pieces of art that do manage that level of success and popularity today, it is often not for their artisitc excellence, integrity or ingenuity (hallmarks of a true 'classic'), but largely due to a giant corporate monetary backing and a sanitization of the content to the point that it can enjoyed almost equally by global audiences (e.g. Marvel movies).
To my point that maybe we should consider a looser definition of 'classic' to encompass songs that were released relatively recently that you think will become 'classic' over time, I'm glad you mentioned Melville's
Moby Dick - as that novel, released in the 1850s, didn't become truly popular until the 1920s (in fact, it sold badly and was critically panned at the time of release) - even with that, it needed not a corporate backing, but an academic institutional backing (it was included widely in American educational syllabi as required reading). Sometimes, all a piece of art needs is a second chance - maybe not now, but perhaps far in the future to a new set of open eyes and ears. Timing certainly plays a role. If part of the standard to be considered a 'classic' is that a track is 'timeless', the track should be just as worthwhile/valuable/enjoyable in the future as it is today. But imagine if "Stairway to Heaven" was released for the first time today. How do you think it would be received? Do you think it would have any chance of piercing the popular consciousness today? How much of why we'd view "Stairway to Heaven" as a classic track has to do with the impact it had in it's day, and the influence it's had over time vs. how much young people might genuinely enjoy the track removed from all that today?
I'm reminded of Kate Bush - she was never really that successful in America. Before 2022, you could probably ask 100 random millennials/zoomers on American streets to name a Kate Bush song and your hit rate might be 2%, maybe 3% at best. But then in 2022, highly popular Netflix series
Stranger Things used the song in the anticipated fourth season of the show as a recurring theme - and people absolutely loved it. So much so that after the release of the show, the song reached #1 on the charts in eight countries and hit a billion streams on Spotify in 2023. Now
that is the mark of a true classic. :)
Okay, you got me. I'm changing the title of the thread! :laughing:
(https://i.imgflip.com/9imsei.jpg)
Hip Hop is old enough to have classic songs that many people know. It's been around for 50 years.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Feb 01, 2025, 04:54 AM
Hip Hop is old enough to have classic songs that many people know. It's been around for 50 years.
I agree. You made me think again about my proposed 'granddad test', and I realized I was thinking specifically about my own grandfathers (both of whom have passed), who were both too set in their ways and their tastes to even try to appreciate different music genres by the time hip hop became more mainstream - when in reality, there are many men my father's age who are grandfathers (I hope to make him a grandfather soon), and even though he's not particularly into hip hop, he knows many of the tracks and likes some of them (after all, he was a young man in the '90s). He still has vivid memories of back when "Gin and Juice" was getting serious time on MTV.
One of my grandfathers actually really grew to like the metal music my dad grew up with (much to my grandmother's chagrin). But if he showed his own grandfather any music that even featured electric guitar, he'd have probably thought he was showing him devil music. So there's a limit to the usefulness of any kind of 'generation test' once you stretch it out long enough.
Some classics that came to mind:
In other words, songs you couldn't bring up in any other thread because everyone knows them already and it makes you seem like a bore who never pierced through the outer layer of the most mainstream offerings of whatever the genre is.
The basic B go to Karaoke song
Every September this song gets played lol
Dominates Halloween every year and you can't escape hearing it.
Good picks, Dj.. how I tire of them 😅
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 04:01 AMThe first one I can't see, the second one I don't know ("Eloise" would be my pick for a Damned song people other than their fans know) and Iggy? Sure but again we're talking "Real Wild Child" if you want to get outside the punk arena. This is what I mean: other than the Weapons of Fornication I can't think of a single punk band who, famous as they may be within their fanbase, would be known outside of that, much less considered a classic. Even GSTQ is only really known due to the controversy it kicked off. That's the problem with punk (and hip-hop to an extent): loved and adored by its fans, but unknown to others. Ask any man, woman or gender fluid person walking down the street to name a classic punk song, ten to one they'll have a stab at Johnny and the boys, but will all go for the same song, if they even know it.
you just dont like punk and hiphop, plenty of other people outside the specific scenes do. The classic punk sgr posted is hardly abrasive or inaccessible to everyone. Hell, London Calling is played and sung along at the start of every London football derby I've been too. The same goes for hiphop, a lot of it is as ubiquitous and mainstream as pop nowadays. The way you feel about these songs is the way I feel about some of the songs you consider classics.
I like the idea that every genre and subgenre has its classics. If it's a niche genre, most people won't know the songs, but anyone with a real interest in the genre should know them.
that's also true, but punk and hiphop absolutely have genre-transcending classics
some stone cold punk examples:
The Clash - London Calling
The Sex Pistols - God Save the Queen
Ramones - Blitzkrieg Bop
Patti Smith - Gloria
Dead Kennedys - Holiday in Cambodia
Gang of Four - I Found That Essence Rare
Bikini Kill - Rebel Girl
The Stranglers - No More Heroes
Joy Division - Love Will Tear Us Apart
if you adopt a broad definition of punk (justified imo) there's also Blondie, Nirvana, Talking Heads etc.
I've enjoyed reading how SCD, collectively, has moved towards defining what makes a song "classic", so I've compiled most of the main criteria you guys have worked out :-
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 30, 2025, 11:37 PMWhat makes a song a classic? I guess it needs to be instantly recognisable (your Stairways to Heaven, your Bats out of Hell, your Satisfactions), usually needs to have been in the charts or on the radio and often is a genre-crossing song, though not always.
Quote from: SGR on Jan 31, 2025, 12:30 AMClassics in my eyes should span generations in appeal. They should be songs that your granddad can enjoy, and songs that even your dumb zoomer cousin can admit to enjoying.
Quote from: Trollheart on Jan 31, 2025, 03:31 PMI think for a song to be regarded as a classic it must be a) instantly recognisable by all b) timeless, as in, its attraction doesn't dim with the passing of years/decades and c) a song that usually evokes some sort of feeling when heard, and I don't just mean emotion, as most songs do that: I mean a song that evokes memories.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Feb 01, 2025, 04:54 AMHip Hop is old enough to have classic songs that many people know. It's been around for 50 years.
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 01, 2025, 08:28 PMI like the idea that every genre and subgenre has its classics. If it's a niche genre, most people won't know the songs, but anyone with a real interest in the genre should know them.
Guybrush makes a really useful distinction I think, between songs recognized within a genre as being a "classic", and songs that, even outside the genre, are regarded as "classic." If there are two types of classic song, then the next obvious move is surely to give them different labels. My first clumsy attempt is to go for "genre classics" and "meta-genre classics", but if anyone has something more catchy, I'm open to persuasion.
(© Ms.J.Armatrading)Here's another criteria that could be used to decide if a song is a meta-genre classic: has it been translated, or sung (original language) around the world? Here are a couple of international classics, imo:-
(Californian group covering a Cuban song)
(With those dance moves, nobody bothered about translating the words, afaik.)
(International hit,
Budet Tak, although many people inexplicably prefer the version by some obscure Liverpool band.)
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 01, 2025, 08:38 AMIn other words, songs you couldn't bring up in any other thread because everyone knows them already and it makes you seem like a bore who never pierced through the outer layer of the most mainstream offerings of whatever the genre is.
^ LOL. Yeah, that's a good rule-of-thumb, working definition of a classic !