I read a disturbing article on the Irish TV station RTE website today, which notes that people are not only condemning a man for murder, but praising him, making him into a local hero. It's that guy who shot the healthcare CEO. Article here.
The killing of a CEO in the age of social media (https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/1215/1486518-luigi-mangione/)
I just wonder how far this will go? If people start making up their own justification for murder, how long before it's "the government takes all my wages in taxes so I'll kill an IRS employee" or "MacDonald's fucked up my order so I'm killing one of them" or even "My delivery was late so I'm off to blow up a UPS hub"? Is it really getting like that over there now? Is it going to get worse? Particularly under the incoming administration, can we expect to see a sort of "softening" of the law against murder, a case of "he/she had it coming"?
Typically after a gun violence "outrage" there are calls to strengthen gun control laws. Noticeably, not so after this one.
From a newsletter...
QuoteLuigi Lawyers Up: Luigi Mangione, the man accused of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson, has retained high-profile attorney Karen Friedman Agnifilo in New York. (Karen's husband is leading the defense for Diddy.) Interviewed before she was hired by Mangione, Agnifilo acknowledged that a "not guilty by reason of insanity defense" might be the best strategy. Mangione is now expected to waive extradition from Pennsylvania, where he is currently held on several charges; this means he'd voluntarily be transferred to New York, where he faces more severe charges, including second-degree murder.
Public Option: GoFundMe, the famous crowdfunding site, blocked attempts to raise money for Mangione. Instead, GiveSendGo, a Christian alternative that has drawn controversy for hosting far-right fundraising campaigns, is hosting an anonymous legal defense campaign. As of today, it's raised more than $100,000.
This is what concerns me. If it becomes normal to "defend", apart from in a legal way, this kind of murder, where will it all end? I expect attention will now be diverted to the much more serious mass shooting in Wisconsin, but even without that, this guy has way too many "fans". It's fucking scary.
I know you're not on Twitter TH so you'll have to take my word for it but this guy is being absolutely worshipped on there. He's like the biggest rock star of 2024. He's got legions of women wanting his cock after his selfies got leaked and the vast, vast majority of people regard him as a hero.
I don't think you understand how much he's loved unless you've seen it for yourself.
You're right that I don't go near social media, but I can believe it. Guy will probably end up in fucking congress or something. What's wrong with the world/Americans/insert old man-ism here?
I bet John Hinckley and JWB (the real one) wish they were living now. They'd be fucking (social) media darlings. ::)
I mean, to be fair, what did he do? He hid and shot a man in the back, a defenceless man, a man he did not know and, whatever your view of health insurance etc is, that's fucking Robert Ford level of cowardice.
The healthcare CEO in question has been responsible for far more deaths than the average serial killer, yet because he is responsible in a law abiding way this is being seen as a moral panic kind of thing by some. What it is is class warfare, I think that despite the pearl clutching, these people cannot be held to empathetic standards because using reason and conscious against your oppressors is pointless. That doesn't get them paid.
In America, and largely across the globe but in a much more obviously fascistic sense here (especially as the years progress) violence is being made of our very lives daily, and no one bats an eye that we are forced to breath in toxic chemicals and work until we are disabled in order to survive, and doing anything less of that is seen as weak and disposable. I am very glad that this is leading to further class consciousness in Americans and hope that real change will come of it. For too long, people's health and ability has been a game to these rich people, this CEO even enlists AI to deny people of healthcare claims! If that isn't morally apprehensible behavior, idk what to tell you. You can talk about what a poor guy this was all day but he has a severe death count and I'm glad he got what he deserved.
I would hope one wouldn't think that a KKK member or a nazi or any member of an actively intolerant group actively killing people deserved a second chance either, while they are disinterested in seeing other points of view. Applying morality to those without is a game not worth playing. The American healthcare system sees dollar signs in people's pain and suffering, their disability, their deaths. This was bound to happen and I wholeheartedly hope it continues to happen.
I wonder if people were advocating for compassion for those enabling the conditions for the French revolution to take place? Probably, but in much different ways than now.
Read about the paradox of tolerance
Quote from: Trollheart on Dec 17, 2024, 04:25 AMI bet John Hinckley and JWB (the real one) wish they were living now. They'd be fucking (social) media darlings. ::)
John Hinckley is alive and well and on YouTube...
John Hinckley Talks About New DocumentarySays he has a new album out called 'Lonely Dreamer.'
Quote from: tristan_geoff on Dec 17, 2024, 07:29 AMI would hope one wouldn't think that a KKK member or a nazi or any member of an actively intolerant group actively killing people deserved a second chance either, while they are disinterested in seeing other points of view. Applying morality to those without is a game not worth playing. The American healthcare system sees dollar signs in people's pain and suffering, their disability, their deaths. This was bound to happen and I wholeheartedly hope it continues to happen.
Hold on a sec, who is the arbiter of morality, and how is morality defined? Is your morality different (better or worse) than mine or everyone else? Noting that morality and tolerance are not the same.
Quote from: Buck_Mulligan on Dec 17, 2024, 05:06 PMHold on a sec, who is the arbiter of morality, and how is morality defined? Is your morality different (better or worse) than mine or everyone else? Noting that morality and tolerance are not the same.
I'm talking about using moral appeals to those oppressing you, the oppressed class being everyone that isn't rich that lives inside of a human body.
Yeah so like I said, if someone is seen as pissing you off it's okay to just shoot them in the street? Jesus Christ. I'm not saying the healthcare industry has not a lot to answer for, nor am I saying this guy didn't quite possibly condemn many people to death with the stroke of a pen. That's still not a reason for people to take the law into their own hands. So next it's this company is poisoning our air, let's shoot the CEO? Or any of the other, more minor examples given in one of my other posts? If you have a grievance take your Glock or AR-15 to the street? You don't think that sort of thinking will result in chaos and mass murder? Is that what you want?
I don't support murder, and ultimately I don't think much will change because of this one, but frankly at this point in America it's clear that there are some people who our current power structure protects and enables to abuse and extort the poor, marginalized and disabled. To those groups who have been abused by this system, going through the 'proper channels' to achieve change feels functionally impossible. The people feel powerless and abandoned, so many are struggling to survive, financially and health wise (and as this is America those two are directly linked), and while I don't think murdering rich CEOs will accomplish change either, I don't think it's the downtrodden people expressing their frustration with this inhumane system and finding catharsis in the statement made by Mangione's actions that we need to be vilifying here.
There I must disagree with you, but I guess you need to be an American to understand. I just can't condone anyone not only taking a life to make a point, but the outpouring of sympathy and support for him for his act of murder. I just couldn't see this happening in Ireland, but then, it's a different situation over here. I also though can't condone anyone saying "I hope this happens more." That's just sick. No pun intended.
I don't condone it either, perhaps I wasn't clear. I was meaning to say i understand and sympathize with the sentiment of being fed up with the inhumane American healthcare system that is being expressed by those who celebrate the shooting. I don't personally think such actions are productive, and I don't think Mangione should have shot the CEO. But I'm also not going to cry too hard about it and I'm not going to judge the moral character of the people who are victims of the disgusting inequalities in this country too hard either.
Quote from: tristan_geoff on Dec 17, 2024, 06:21 PMI'm talking about using moral appeals to those oppressing you, the oppressed class being everyone that isn't rich that lives inside of a human body.
I'll just note that you didn't answer my questions.
Quote from: Lexi Darling on Dec 17, 2024, 07:59 PMI don't condone it either, perhaps I wasn't clear. I was meaning to say i understand and sympathize with the sentiment of being fed up with the inhumane American healthcare system that is being expressed by those who celebrate the shooting. I don't personally think such actions are productive, and I don't think Mangione should have shot the CEO. But I'm also not going to cry too hard about it and I'm not going to judge the moral character of the people who are victims of the disgusting inequalities in this country too hard either.
If you don't think the killing is productive and are also unwilling to criticize those who celebrate it you're sitting on the fence trying to have it both ways.
Quote from: Trollheart on Dec 17, 2024, 06:45 PMYeah so like I said, if someone is seen as pissing you off it's okay to just shoot them in the street? Jesus Christ. I'm not saying the healthcare industry has not a lot to answer for, nor am I saying this guy didn't quite possibly condemn many people to death with the stroke of a pen. That's still not a reason for people to take the law into their own hands. So next it's this company is poisoning our air, let's shoot the CEO? Or any of the other, more minor examples given in one of my other posts? If you have a grievance take your Glock or AR-15 to the street? You don't think that sort of thinking will result in chaos and mass murder? Is that what you want?
I am not saying that someone should be able to kill someone simply for pissing them off, it seems that you have conveniently ignored a lot of the structural issues I brought up. Are you familiar with the trolley problem?
As far as the law goes, well you see how police in America act. The law at one point condoned slavery, and continues to marginalize many. I don't think the law is or has ever been the standard of morality.
Quote from: Buck_Mulligan on Dec 17, 2024, 08:02 PMI'll just note that you didn't answer my questions.
My apologies, I thought that you had asked because you misunderstood what I was trying to illustrate.
I typed out a reply and it went away but basically, I don't think anyone has a higher or more inherently correct frame of morality, there are as many ways to interpret as there are people.
I also hope that thru so many historical examples proving otherwise, people won't just line up to die and give up.
Quote from: Buck_Mulligan on Dec 17, 2024, 05:06 PMHold on a sec, who is the arbiter of morality, and how is morality defined? Is your morality different (better or worse) than mine or everyone else? Noting that morality and tolerance are not the same.
Also I have no idea what you're trying to prove or say by asking this, seems like a red herring
Quote from: tristan_geoff on Dec 17, 2024, 09:55 PMI am not saying that someone should be able to kill someone simply for pissing them off, it seems that you have conveniently ignored a lot of the structural issues I brought up. Are you familiar with the trolley problem?
As far as the law goes, well you see how police in America act. The law at one point condoned slavery, and continues to marginalize many. I don't think the law is or has ever been the standard of morality.
No I haven't, but you seem to be condoning this because of a situation that exists in America where health insurance/care benefits the companies and the mega-corporations, and using that as an excuse to exult in - and, more importantly in your case, wish for further - murder of people. I mean, the system may be fucked, but that doesn't mean you can take it out on one man. He is or was a human, with a family and friends. It's not fair, in my view, to use him as a figurehead, symbol or scapegoat to assuage the anger felt in America at healthcare. You're as much as saying (well, you are saying) it's justified, so where does it stop? When does it not become justified? When is murder not murder and a form of vigilante justice on behalf of the "people"?
If your idea is that this, and (you hope) further deaths will push the healthcare sector into thinking more kindly and humanely about their business, a) you're wrong: all you'll get is more security around the buildings, bodyguards being hired and places like the healthcare centres moving online to stop having to deal face-to-face with people who may want to kill them and more crazies who think they can change things (if that's what Mangione was about, and I freely admit I don't know his motive(s)) and b) you'll end up with a form of terrorism. Be nice to us or we'll kill you. Perfect start to Trump 2.0! ::)
I assume the "trolley situation" is the same as ours here - people left on trolleys in ERs for hours/days before being seen? If not, tell me what it is, as I have no idea. But whatever it is, it doesn't justify murder and your cry for more of the same is, frankly, disturbing. Assuming you're not just trolling, which I don't think you are.
Hypothetical question for you: what if that had been your father, or brother? Would you still think it had been justified? In the furore and media attention to the killer, I've heard little about what this man was like. Maybe he
was scum. He still didn't deserve to die, and his death is not going to change the situation that has persisted for how many decades now in America?
And frankly, to conflate this was slavery is beneath you. It doesn't even make sense.
This actually is an interesting discussion, but not necessarily on the morals of this particular case - more in the abstract. Murder is obviously morally wrong. But people can devise their own moral frameworks and justifications, if not to make a murder right explicitly, then at least to make it sympathetic and understandable. What many online have done to this health care CEO effectively is dehumanized him (always the first step to make killing someone morally justifiable). He is no longer a father of two children, a husband, and a person with very human dreams and aspirations, but rather a symbol of classist evil in a Marxist sense - a faceless cog in a machine who bears moral responsibility and guilt for not only the inadequacies of the health care company he served as CEO under, but for the inadequacies of the American health care system as a whole. His murder has been, by many, taken as an outlet or a proxy for frustrations with the American health care system as a whole, particularly by people who have their own horror stories with it (or know someone who has).
It's not fair to him of course - the system, its structure, its incentives and its results (or lack thereof) didn't start with this CEO, and it won't end or be resolved with his murder - or with his wife, children and family crying at his funeral and wishing the man they loved was with them for every Christmas they've yet to experience. Engaging in stochastic terrorism and wishing for these kinds of murders to continue may be gross morally, but it's not beyond explanation or understanding for why some might feel that way. But it also won't accomplish anything - as the faceless CEO you privately celebrate the death of is epehmeral, and will only be replaced by another faceless CEO who will ultimately serve the same purpose.
It probably goes sociologically deeper though. We like to think of ourselves (we humans) as sophisticated, moral, righteous, civilized - and we often look back at generations long since past as very primitive in comparison. They were but mouth-breathing moral troglodytes while we, in all of our 21st century wisdom, are arbiters of virtue. This of course is a lie we tell ourselves to, much like a large portion of our moral grandstanding and performative outrage, make ourselves feel better and find community and belonging. I think probably, in 200 years, people will judge us just as harshly as we judge people from 200 years ago today (which isn't to say we haven't made serious improvements since then).
We share almost 99% of our DNA with chimpanzees. Like them, we probably share some kind of inherent bloodlust (https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/nf-2016-A056/html?lang=en#:~:text=Data%20from%20diverse%20contexts%20show,people%2C%20at%20least%20when%20male.) that culture, religion, civilization, and the state monopoly on (lawful) violence has largely been able to suppress.
"Abstract"
Appetitive aggression describes a biologically-driven form of aggressive behaviour and violence characterized by positive affect. In contrast to reactive aggression, which has the function of resisting a threat, and reducing concomitant negative emotional arousal and anger, appetitive aggression underlies the pleasure of violence. A prototypical example is hunting, which can in turn transfer to the hunting of humans and can even result in bloodlust, and killing for its own sake. At the physiological level, this morally illicit pleasure is accompanied by an adrenalin surge, the release of cortisol and endorphins. In order to activate reward systems via appetitive aggression, their moral and cultural restraints need to be overridden. For example, armed groups work to dehumanize the enemy. Once initiated, a positive feedback loop is generated: As the individual commits more acts of violence with elements of positive affect, the tendency to commit them grows, and they begin to be perceived more positively. A latent passion for fighting and dominance can probably be evoked in almost all men and in some women. The cumulative outcome of whole groups, tribes, or communities enacting this aggression is war and destruction, to the point of trying to extinguish entire ethnic groups:"... and yes, human beings, hundreds of thousands of otherwise normal people, not professional killers, did it." (from "The Killers in Rwanda Speak" by Jean Hatzfeld, 2005). Thus, appetitive aggression, the disposition towards a lust for violence, is by no means a psychopathological anomaly but an intrinsic part of the human behavioural repertoire. Morality, culture and the state monopoly on violence constitute the guards that regulate aggression potential and to channel it into socially useful forms.
When a system is failing people (or at least, some people), I don't think it's difficult to understand why some would feel sympathy or some kind of kinship with a figure who breaks the rules of said system to attack, even with violence, a purveyor of said system (even if the analysis of the figure was wrong, morally or practically). In a sense, since we're talking about an American story, that's kind of how America as a country began in the first place. And if you know anything about Americans, we often make folk heroes out of outlaws - those who directly defy authorities, sometimes even with violence, skirt the boundaries of the law, even if they're driven by a Randian selfishness - and sometimes we even make folk heroes out of them just because they had the balls to do something crazy and give us a story we'd tell for generations. There is something very American about that. Some examples?:
DB Cooper:
(https://cdn.britannica.com/31/194231-004-CA208504/FBI-sketch-DB-Cooper.jpg)
Bonnie and Clyde:
(https://blogs.bu.edu/guidedhistory/files/2014/12/640px-Bonnieclyde_f.jpg)
John Dillinger:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/John_Dillinger_mug_shot.jpg/800px-John_Dillinger_mug_shot.jpg)
Jimmy Hoffa:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/James_R._Hoffa_NYWTS_%28cropped%29.jpg)
Jesse James:
(https://journalism-history.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/jessejames.jpg?w=640)
American pop culture has certainly helped too. People love anti-heroes, in real life and in fiction, especially if they're good looking:
Batman? Dexter? Travis Bickle? Michael Corleone? Walter White? There's a machiavellian aspect to them that Americans just eat up, especially if it's in direct defiance of government and the authorities. Need more proof? Look to who America just re-elected:
(https://dims.apnews.com/dims4/default/c926a28/2147483647/strip/true/crop/2700x2700+0+0/resize/599x599!/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.apnews.com%2F92%2F03%2F069ad1da98c67475656d4bf59318%2F8a78038c24a84b58846d4024c2e25136)
The NY D.A.has thrown the book at Mangione, upping the charges to murder one, because of an alleged terrorism component, the desire to create fear. The D.A. held up an NY Post front-page that referenced wanted posters for other CEOs and a deck of cards with the faces of CEOs.
Defense lawyers think terrorism is a reach too far.
The left like to think because they have the right beliefs, it entitles them to behave in a way that people wouldn't normally condone.
Killing people - wrong
Killing people because you don't agree with something - fine
You can find so many examples of this.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 17, 2024, 11:40 PMThe left like to think because they have the right beliefs, it entitles them to behave in a way that people wouldn't normally condone.
Killing people - wrong
Killing people because you don't agree with something - fine
You can find so many examples of this.
This is not exclusive to the left lol. Look at the comments online every time a trans person is killed and you'll see countless right wingers celebrating.
Quote from: Lexi Darling on Dec 17, 2024, 11:55 PMThis is not exclusive to the left lol. Look at the comments online every time a trans person is killed and you'll see countless right wingers celebrating.
Yeah usually very, very extreme people that basically everyone including the right would condemn. I didn't say nobody on the right acts like that. That isn't the point I'm making. The left definitely believes they can do bad things and be justified because they believe they're the 'good guys'.
Quote from: Buck_Mulligan on Dec 17, 2024, 10:46 PMThe NY D.A.has thrown the book at Mangione, upping the charges to murder one, because of an alleged terrorism component, the desire to create fear. The D.A. held up an NY Post front-page that referenced wanted posters for other CEOs and a deck of cards with the faces of CEOs.
Defense lawyers think terrorism is a reach too far.
Most Wanted CEO's Playing Cards (https://www.comradeworkwear.com/products/most-wanted-ceo-playing-cards)
Quote from: Trollheart on Dec 17, 2024, 10:29 PMNo I haven't, but you seem to be condoning this because of a situation that exists in America where health insurance/care benefits the companies and the mega-corporations, and using that as an excuse to exult in - and, more importantly in your case, wish for further - murder of people. I mean, the system may be fucked, but that doesn't mean you can take it out on one man. He is or was a human, with a family and friends. It's not fair, in my view, to use him as a figurehead, symbol or scapegoat to assuage the anger felt in America at healthcare. You're as much as saying (well, you are saying) it's justified, so where does it stop? When does it not become justified? When is murder not murder and a form of vigilante justice on behalf of the "people"?
If your idea is that this, and (you hope) further deaths will push the healthcare sector into thinking more kindly and humanely about their business, a) you're wrong: all you'll get is more security around the buildings, bodyguards being hired and places like the healthcare centres moving online to stop having to deal face-to-face with people who may want to kill them and more crazies who think they can change things (if that's what Mangione was about, and I freely admit I don't know his motive(s)) and b) you'll end up with a form of terrorism. Be nice to us or we'll kill you. Perfect start to Trump 2.0! ::)
I assume the "trolley situation" is the same as ours here - people left on trolleys in ERs for hours/days before being seen? If not, tell me what it is, as I have no idea. But whatever it is, it doesn't justify murder and your cry for more of the same is, frankly, disturbing. Assuming you're not just trolling, which I don't think you are.
Hypothetical question for you: what if that had been your father, or brother? Would you still think it had been justified? In the furore and media attention to the killer, I've heard little about what this man was like. Maybe he was scum. He still didn't deserve to die, and his death is not going to change the situation that has persisted for how many decades now in America?
And frankly, to conflate this was slavery is beneath you. It doesn't even make sense.
(https://www.schooltools.at/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/trolley-problem.png)
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 17, 2024, 11:40 PMThe left like to think because they have the right beliefs, it entitles them to behave in a way that people wouldn't normally condone.
Killing people - wrong
Killing people because you don't agree with something - fine
You can find so many examples of this.
This isn't a left vs right issue. The support behind Luigi is actually bipartisan because every American can relate to being denied coverage for a health procedure that they needed from an insurance company while others have had family members die because of this very act.
Your perspective is going to be different with your kush health system across the pond. Both you are TH wouldn't understand how bad it is over here.
(https://www.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/20/2022/01/FT_22.01.04_Jan6_feature-jpg.webp?w=1200&h=628&crop=1)
If you don't know the image Jan 6th rioters who were on the right. They continue to this day to justify their actions as being okay even though one of their own was killed during this action. Trumpito is about to pardon all of them soon too.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 18, 2024, 03:13 AMThis isn't a left vs right issue. The support behind Luigi is actually bipartisan because every American can relate to being denied coverage for a health procedure that they needed from an insurance company while others have had family members die because of this very act.
This is true, as is evidenced by the reaction Ben Shapiro and Matt Walsh received after doing their usual tired demonization of the people cheering on Mangione.
(https://i.ibb.co/W2fPVrf/IMG-8831.jpg)
I'm not talking about this issue on it's own. I'm pointing out a trend I've noticed repeatedly, over and over again. The left justify their actions by claiming they are somehow 'punching up' and how they're doing it for the right reasons.
You mention Jan 6th. Again, plenty on the right actually condemned that.
read a book
Something that we haven't discussed is the fact that they want to bring up terrorism charges against Luigi and it's super clear why. They want to send the message that the poor peons shouldn't mess with the upper class and to attempt to deter copycats instead of dealing with the issues that caused the murder in the first place. Enacting changes to a broken system that will of course take time.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/luigi-mangione-indicted-first-degree-murder-charge-grand-jury-unitedhe-rcna184313 (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/luigi-mangione-indicted-first-degree-murder-charge-grand-jury-unitedhe-rcna184313)
SGR touched a little bit on the point that his murderous actions won't change anything but it did in fact change one thing so far. Another insurance company changed a bad policy where they would stop paying for anesthesia if your surgery goes on for too long. They ended up reversing that policy decision while they were shuffling to take down pictures of upper management off of their website. They are starting to realize that you can't constantly have your boot pressed on the necks of the lower class forever without resistance. Peaceful protesting is easy to ignore. It takes violence to enact real change. This is what history tells us look at the French revolution for example.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 18, 2024, 05:32 AMSomething that we haven't discussed is the fact that they want to bring up terrorism charges against Luigi and it's super clear why. They want to send the message that the poor peons shouldn't mess with the upper class and to attempt to deter copycats instead of dealing with the issues that caused the murder in the first place.
Or because it's terrorism.
Not sure what difference it'd make to any potential murderers anyway. Anyone doing the same will go to prison for life regardless. An extra charge isn't going to deter anyone.
(https://i.imgur.com/VEo9sL3.png)
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 18, 2024, 07:03 AMOr because it's terrorism.
Not sure what difference it'd make to any potential murderers anyway. Anyone doing the same will go to prison for life regardless. An extra charge isn't going to deter anyone.
right, because murder is only ok if you have money and status.
I need everyone that feels sad that the CEO got killed to email someone in American congress about the recent school shooting in Madison, Wisconsin.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 18, 2024, 07:03 AMOr because it's terrorism.
Not sure what difference it'd make to any potential murderers anyway. Anyone doing the same will go to prison for life regardless. An extra charge isn't going to deter anyone.
How is a regular murder terrorism?
None of the school shooters that occur on a regular basis has ever been charged with terrorism.
If more CEOs were murdered I'm sure gun laws would be changed pronto but in the mean time it's thoughts and prayers.
Quote from: tristan_geoff on Dec 18, 2024, 07:26 AMright, because murder is only ok if you have money and status.
Murder isn't OK at all.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 18, 2024, 10:39 AMHow is a regular murder terrorism?
None of the school shooters that occur on a regular basis has ever been charged with terrorism.
If more CEOs were murdered I'm sure gun laws would be changed pronto but in the mean time it's thoughts and prayers.
Its politically motivated therefore it's terrorism.
I like how you and Tristan continue to prove my point about the left.
I think it comes off as very biased to say the left 'believe they can do bad things and be justified because they believe they're the good guys', everyone thinks they're the good guys. And as a trans person who used to be on Twitter, condoning violence is absolutely not an uncommon sentiment on the right, I've been told to 'become a statistic', or that some chud would beat me to a pulp if I used a women's bathroom and so many other vile things by countless accounts for years. Why are you so willing to believe that these are total outliers on the right? January 6th, Charlottesville, Trump directly addressing the Proud Boys, while maybe violent far-righters are not the majority of republican voters, I also don't think the marxist/anarchist/far left types who praise Mangione's actions as some kind of precursor to a bloody revolution are the majority of the left either. The overwhelming sentiment I've seen online (from both sides) has been "I don't support murdering people but I understand why he did it".
I don't know why you're carrying all this water for the right at a time when the policymakers they vote for and support are the ones currently enabling state sanctioned violence against pregnant women and trans people via denials of healthcare. Huge right wing influencer figures like Matt Walsh and Chaya Raichik are emboldening stochastic terrorism against marginalized people by vilifying and dehumanizing them; someone tried to bomb a children's hospital because they happened to provide gender affirming care. Violence and murder come in many forms besides shootings, and I don't think the view that violence by 'the good guys' is justified is as fringe on the right as you think it is, considering the right just elected Mr. "Bloodbath" himself.
I've already said why. I already know people on the right will do bad shit as well. But the right will condemn it. The left don't, they believe they're entitled to behave in certain ways. Look at this thread. We've got two people calling for more killings and justifying it because they think they're the good guys. You wouldn't get it the other way round.
It's not biased. Plenty of criticism of the right has been posted on here. There are legitimate criticisms of the left as well. And I mention it because I've seen a big part of why the Tories were able to constantly keep winning elections was because of the way the left behaved over here.
Your "points" exist in a vacuum where the far right doesn't equal totalitarianism. Let nazis rule the world, ok. Lots of people are fighting for theirs and others lives on the left, while the right is fighting for political power. That is the difference.
😂😂😂
The right won't condemn it, they'll say they do and then do absolutely nothing to prevent it, "thoughts and prayers" etc. Actions speak louder than words.
And like, the right lie a lot lol. Trump lies about damn near everything. "They said they condemn violence" means nothing coming from a party who enthusiastically support charlatans like Trump.
And why is it so comical to you that Tristan called the far right totalitarian lol. Nazis are far right, that's just a fact lol. I dunno why your response is to laugh hysterically at Tristan's statement, as if it were such a crazy notion that the right (the party for tax cuts for the rich and against universal healthcare) would prioritize money, power and the preservation thereof over the lives of the poor and marginalized who are struggling.
Anyway I'm going to argue on this anymore. I've made the points I wanted to, make of them what you will.
We were talking about the right not Nazis. And they proved my point again. 'The difference is we're fighting for our lives'.
So you think it's OK when you do it. As I've been saying.
I think it's fallacious to even frame this as right vs. left, it's rich vs. poor, powerful vs. powerless. As DJ and I have pointed out, it's not just the left who support Mangione.
Tristan uses they/she pronouns btw.
While the US health system is far from perfect, it seems the insurance cos are not the biggest financial culprit. I did a quick comparison on Charles Schawb of United Health Group, and Hospital Corporation of America, the biggest in each sector of the healthcare industry. United's net profit margin is 3.5%, Hospital's is three times larger at 10.5%.
I visit five specialist doctors on a regular quarterly basis and I know they bill my insurance much more than my primary care physician does. So there's plenty of blame to go around.
I'm not talking only about this one incident. And framing it as power vs powerless is an attempt to justify the sort of behaviour I'm talking about.
I'm not going to engage in this tomfoolery any longer. I suggest you read about politics somewhere other than Infowars?
A recent poll of 1000 people by Emerson College found that overall 68% disapproved of the shooting. In the 18-29 age group 24% said they "somewhat" approved, and a further 17% said they definitely approved.
Quote from: tristan_geoff on Dec 18, 2024, 04:55 PMI'm not going to engage in this tomfoolery any longer. I suggest you read about politics somewhere other than Infowars?
I'm British. I don't read Infowars.
Fuck a healthcare CEO. Finally something the right and left can agree on in America.
Any principled case for non-violence should consider all types of violence including systemic and cultural.
For example, condemning political violence in apartheid Africa would ring hollow if you did not accompany it with a call to end segregation.
I do not mean to compare this rich madman to oppressed Africans. Only to say it is not a position of peace when you only condemn acts of direct violence. The healthcare system we have is violent.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 18, 2024, 03:07 PMI've already said why. I already know people on the right will do bad shit as well. But the right will condemn it. The left don't, they believe they're entitled to behave in certain ways. Look at this thread. We've got two people calling for more killings and justifying it because they think they're the good guys. You wouldn't get it the other way round.
It's not biased. Plenty of criticism of the right has been posted on here. There are legitimate criticisms of the left as well. And I mention it because I've seen a big part of why the Tories were able to constantly keep winning elections was because of the way the left behaved over here.
Just like you claim that the right condemns the bad stuff there are people on the right that don't. There are people on the left that condemn the bad stuff that people on the left let slide. It's the same on both sides. You are just wanting to view it under a specific scope to prove some point that doesn't exist.
It's a bipartisan support for what has happened mostly from younger folks but the older people on the left condemn it across the board.
You keep saying it's more than just this issue but if you have really looked at the bigger picture or even read anything that SGR said in his long post. You'd realize that the mainstream media has been pushing that same message about humanizing a father has passed away without even acknowledging all the lives that have been lost while he has been in his role.
Quote from: Buck_Mulligan on Dec 18, 2024, 04:49 PMWhile the US health system is far from perfect, it seems the insurance cos are not the biggest financial culprit. I did a quick comparison on Charles Schawb of United Health Group, and Hospital Corporation of America, the biggest in each sector of the healthcare industry. United's net profit margin is 3.5%, Hospital's is three times larger at 10.5%.
I visit five specialist doctors on a regular quarterly basis and I know they bill my insurance much more than my primary care physician does. So there's plenty of blame to go around.
United Health Group has the largest percentage of claim denials though.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 18, 2024, 06:18 PMJust like you claim that the right condemns the bad stuff there are people on the right that don't. There are people on the left that condemn the bad stuff that people on the left let slide. It's the same on both sides. You are just wanting to view it under a specific scope to prove some point that doesn't exist.
It's a bipartisan support for what has happened mostly from younger folks but the older people on the left condemn it across the board.
I know some will condemn it but not nearly enough. It is absolutely not the same, you just don't see the same behaviour on the right and if you think otherwise you're not being honest with yourself. There's always an excuse as to why it's different.
Do you think there are no legit criticisms of the left? Do you think the left is perfect? I've seen you criticise the right plenty of times, you need to accept that maybe the left has it's own faults as well.
QuoteYou keep saying it's more than just this issue but if you have really looked at the bigger picture or even read anything that SGR said in his long post. You'd realize that the mainstream media has been pushing that same message about humanizing a father has passed away without even acknowledging all the lives that have been lost while he has been in his role.
You can condemn the killing and also criticise the health industry.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 18, 2024, 07:18 PMYou can condemn the killing and also criticise the health industry.
Sure, but it's a very liberal position. It's not the left that's championing this guy, it's Americans excluding the establishment Republicans and Democrats.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 18, 2024, 07:18 PMI know some will condemn it but not nearly enough. It is absolutely not the same, you just don't see the same behaviour on the right and if you think otherwise you're not being honest with yourself. There's always an excuse as to why it's different.
Do you think there are no legit criticisms of the left? Do you think the left is perfect? I've seen you criticise the right plenty of times, you need to accept that maybe the left has it's own faults as well.
You are being completely disingenuous and lying to yourself if you think the right always condemns this stuff.
You've only seen me critize the right because that's what you choose to see. I've criticized the left as well. I critize establishment Democrats all the time.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Dec 18, 2024, 07:18 PMYou can condemn the killing and also criticise the health industry.
Just like Chris Rock said yeah it's sad that a guy died but no one cares when a drug dealer dies like oh well so what. I don't and many others don't have to sympathize with his death especially in the face of the what he has done within the health care system and the numerous lives that have been lost. I'm not going to care about one guy over the lives of many that he's been involved with killing.
I don't know why you think we should sympathize with a serial killer essentially.
There's a reasonable argument against any murder. Conservatives posturing like they're Tolstoy ain't it though.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 18, 2024, 08:28 PMYou are being completely disingenuous and lying to yourself if you think the right always condemns this stuff.
This whole post is full of shit I didn't say.