Something Completely Different

i've never seen it used except in a negative context

"trans women frequent suffer from cis male abuse"

not

"i love my kind cis male husband"

i call others what they want to be called - please call me a man refering to my sex or gender - no qualifier needed - thanks

i didn't mean to post this in the secret forum - please move to the lounge

I would only ever point out someone as being cis if it was absolutely necessary for context. I would hope everyone would do the same for trans people.

if you need context for me i prefer "a man who was born with a beautiful ding dong"

let's be specific

For the record, I have zero problem being referred to as cis. It's not a slur. The OP reads like a white person complaining about being called white.

QuoteIt's not a slur.

What else do you call a word that's almost always used to identify an enemy?

The only people who use the term cis have something bad to say about men but want to be sure they're not including trans men.

Anyway if I can't dictate how I'm referred to I'm reserving the right to return the favor.

Stop being so melodramatic. It's just a descriptor.

i already have a descriptor

man

That's one descriptor, but there are endless others as well, like your nationality, your race, your age, your height, your weight, your employment status, your sexual orientation, and your assigned sex and gender identity.

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 06, 2023, 05:34 PM

QuoteIt's not a slur.

What else do you call a word that's almost always used to identify an enemy? 

Thats not what a slur is, it's more nuanced than that. The fact that you use 'almost' indicates the main difference: a slur is an inherently abusive word, regardless of context. It's more than just an identifier. 'Cis white male'can be used discriminatingly (just like 'black people' can be used in a racist statement) but in itself it's just a descriptor.

I'm announcing I'm offended by it so if it's used to describe me I'll return serve with slurs that other folks don't like.

Ok Tucker.

@Hawk, that's illogical and unacceptable. Are you being serious or attempting a parody of what you think being woke means?

I'm completely serious. Cis is hate speech and I'm not going to tolerate it. I know everything about what bigotry is growing up when I did in the deep south and can smell hate all over that word. I also know what happens when you let others "other" you they keep kicking and kicking until they're curb stomping your grandchildren. I'm not turning a blind eye to it. I call people what they want to be called. I expect the same.

Quote from: Janszoon on Feb 06, 2023, 07:54 PMOk Tucker.

Show me the clip of Tucker going off on the police and the rich and capitalism like I do, Hillary.

You're right, you're more in the ballpark of the anti-government right wing extremists than the Fox pundits. Thanks for the correction, Timothy.

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 06, 2023, 08:09 PMI'm completely serious. Cis is hate speech and I'm not going to tolerate it. I know everything about what bigotry is growing up when I did in the deep south and can smell hate all over that word. I also know what happens when you let others "other" you they keep kicking and kicking until they're curb stomping your grandchildren. I'm not turning a blind eye to it. I call people what they want to be called. I expect the same.

yeah no you're making some big errors in reasoning there. Objecting when people 'other' you is fine, but 1. You can do that without pretending something is (as bad as) a slur when it's not (see my earlier post) 2. Pretending people calling you 'cis' in a derogatory way is comparable to racism and other severe discrimination (or that you can use those slurs in an equivalent way) is nonsensical and offensive. It's like saying it's fair to beat someone with a baseball bat as retaliation for being bitch-slapped

I'm sorry you feel like your identity is being attacked, Hawk. I will respect your wishes and not refer to you as such.

However I do not think it's comparable to a slur because it's not used to reinforce the discrimination and oppression of a marginalized group, nor has it ever been.

QuoteIt's like saying it's fair to beat someone with a baseball bat as retaliation for being bitch-slapped

I actually have no problem with that at all. In fact, I think that's how it should be.

Cis male, is that a heterosexual male? I don't think it's a term I've ever encountered except in text on a forum. While I may be foggy on the definition, it doesn't seem like a slur to me. Isn't it just a neutral descriptor?

OH, how often do you encounter this term as a way to describe you and in what situations?

QuoteCisgender (often shortened to cis; sometimes cissexual) is a term used to describe a person whose gender identity corresponds to their sex assigned at birth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender)

Quote from: Janszoon on Feb 06, 2023, 10:18 PM

QuoteCisgender (often shortened to cis; sometimes cissexual) is a term used to describe a person whose gender identity corresponds to their sex assigned at birth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender)

Thanks Jans. I don't feel like this is a term that's been weaponized myself. I obviously haven't encountered it much.

never irl because everyone knows i'm a man

it's hate speech and sexist because it implies my manhood doesn't stand on its own

it's hateful because it's always used in contrast to trans people with the implication that i'm somehow an oppressor simply because i was born with a penis and grew from a boy to a man

it's the creation of a narrative that insists i'm lesser since that struggle isn't my own

if they want to call themselves men then they shouldn't hide from the default position of being a part of patriarchal oppression

and trans women can take up their womanhood with the terfs - good luck with that btw

Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 06, 2023, 10:31 PMThanks Jans. I don't feel like this is a term that's been weaponized myself. I obviously haven't encountered it much.

I don't feel that it's been weaponized either.

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 06, 2023, 10:35 PMit's hate speech and sexist because it implies my manhood doesn't stand on its own

It used to be there were men and women. Now people are trying to accommodate, in language, that you also have a gender identity regardless of what size your gametes are (what your biological sex is). In order to also communicate gender identity, you need an extra word so that's apparently cis for when your identity conforms to your biological sex.

"Male" doesn't clearly communicate anything about gender identity, so to do that, you need something more. I don't see what the problem is.

Quote from: OHit's hateful because it's always used in contrast to trans people with the implication that i'm somehow an oppressor simply because i was born with a penis and grew from a boy to a man

it's the creation of a narrative that insists i'm lesser since that struggle isn't my own

if they want to call themselves men then they shouldn't hide from the default position of being a part of patriarchal oppression

and trans women can take up their womanhood with the terfs - good luck with that btw

It's a little hard to comment on the implication etc. as it's not an expression that's much used here or that I've felt targeted by.

It does sound useful, though. A problem we have in Norway is we haven't had a nuanced enough language about these things to communicate clearly whether we're talking about gender identity or biological sex. It makes discussions about it nearly impossible and always very heated.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jT2cTmJ/AB10-C96-B-AA27-406-D-82-F6-4-C639-FE16128.jpg)

in everyone of these examples cis is a slur - everyone of them suggests that their anatomy puts them on the wrong side otherwise why mention it

QuoteIn order to also communicate gender identity, you need an extra word so that's cos for when your identity conforms to your biological sex.

the word is trans

if cis means non-trans it's by definition exclusionary

Quotewhen your identity conforms to your biological sex

male female man and woman

you don't need a qualifier in that case unless they're trans just like you can assume people are norwegian and if they're not and you need to you point out that they're foreign

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 06, 2023, 11:40 PM

QuoteIn order to also communicate gender identity, you need an extra word so that's cos for when your identity conforms to your biological sex.

the word is trans

if cis means non-trans it's by definition exclusionary

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 06, 2023, 11:35 PMin everyone of these examples cis is a slur - everyone of them suggests that their anatomy puts them on the wrong side otherwise why mention it

no. If you say you need a word for when sex and gender are different (trans) but you don't need a work for when sex and gender are the same (cis), you're saying that you only need a word for the former because the latter is the default option (your later post about not needing a qualifier is an example of that). In that way, you're othering trans people. that's exclusionary. the word cis exists so that cis and trans people are treated on an equal footing linguistically. once again: it'sn not a slur. please read the posts of everyone here who's tried to explain that. I'm getting tired of this but honestly my goal is not to attack you. I think this is an important subject and I think you should understand it

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 06, 2023, 11:40 PMthe word is trans

Yeah, but if you're hanging with your trans posse and you wanna describe a dude as decidedly not trans, isn't it fine to have a word for that that's on equal footing as trans?

Edit:

As MM says, this is just linguistic equality. Anything else is othering trans people.

marie i'd fine with that if it wasn't almost always used as fire power against men

you make this best argument possible for it not being a slur but the only problem is it's used a slur and that makes it a slur

QuoteAs MM says, this is just linguistic equality. Anything else is othering trans people.

trans are subjected to all kinds of discrimination- embracing a slur that only means i'm not one of them hardly feels like i'm doing them a favor and i'm definitely not doing myself a favor

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 07, 2023, 12:08 AMmarie i'd fine with that if it wasn't almost always used as fire power against men

you make this best argument possible for it not being a slur but the only problem is it's used a slur and that makes it a slur

The screenshot seemed pretty weak in terms of being offensive. I realize these are your feelings and you're allowed to have them, but there will always be people using labels to enable prejudice. Any broad descriptor of people will be used for that, also trans.

I usually just ignore that kind of stuff. Cis male is like billions of people. It doesn't describe you.

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 07, 2023, 12:08 AMmarie i'd fine with that if it wasn't almost always used as fire power against men

you make this best argument possible for it not being a slur but the only problem is it's used a slur and that makes it a slur

for the last time, that's not how a slur works. Read about it.

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 07, 2023, 12:08 AMmarie i'd fine with that if it wasn't almost always used as fire power against men

you make this best argument possible for it not being a slur but the only problem is it's used a slur and that makes it a slur

The ruling class cannot be slurred per say as they are the ones that put the oppression onto other people.  Same with being racist towards white people, impossible.  Fire power against men is fine and dandy in certain contexts, while not all men deserve it, it's the fact that so many cis men are intolerable bigots that's the reason it's usually used in a negative context.  By itself, no cis male is not a slur.  It means men who are not transgender.  They don't fully understand the trans experience as they are not that, which is fine in itself but it's the fact that so many men abuse their power that it becomes a problem and thus people use the term cis male in a negative context.

the only ruling class are the rich

rich trans people are golden

a rich trans person who claims they're being oppressed by a poor white man is a counter-revolutionary and should be treated as such

poor white people cannot be racist against rich black people because the rich of all demographics hold all the cards and all the power

they teach you these counter-revolutionary ideas because colleges are the propaganda units of capitalism

rich black trans people eat where they want, live and travel where they want, receive the healthcare they want and are shielded from violence with literal walls and locked cars and so on

the poor look for food in the garbage, live exposed to the elements, do not receive healthcare and are regularly victims of violence because they have no walls or locked doors to hide behind

you might be right that the ruling class cannot be slured, at least not in a way with any venom but the only criterion to be ruling class is money because the only person who doesn't accept money for services is some lady who makes wedding cakes in Kentucky

Quote from: Marie Monday on Feb 07, 2023, 09:25 AM

Quote from: TheNonSexual OccultHawk on Feb 07, 2023, 12:08 AMmarie i'd fine with that if it wasn't almost always used as fire power against men

you make this best argument possible for it not being a slur but the only problem is it's used a slur and that makes it a slur

for the last time, that's not how a slur works. Read about it.

i have read about it - the difference is i've actually thought about it

Ok boomer

I don't necessarily expect you to get along, but don't let this thread degenerate into mere trolling or throwing of insults.

This thread started as mere trolling.

Calling this thread to a halt at this point rather than everything that went before seems ill-considered.

I'm not trying to degenerate this thread, I'm just giving up on the discussion because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I think I've shown much more patience and politeness in this conversation than you can expect, especially as a person with a history of gender-related bullying.

it's not a troll just because you don't like it

i've been called tucker (tucker carlson as if i'm remotely right wing) timothy (timothy mcveigh lol no offense taken) boomer and by default a troll

any word that's regularly used in a derogatory fashion is a slur - retarded has a medical non-offensive technical meaning as well but everyone knows it's a slur

cis is regularly used in a derogatory way therefore it's a slur -

like would i really say i love cis women or would i just say i love women

i love women sounds normal
i live cis women sounds abnormal

you know why? because cis is a sexist slur

Quote from: Marie Monday on Feb 07, 2023, 08:36 PMCalling this thread to a halt at this point rather than everything that went before seems ill-considered.

I'm not trying to degenerate this thread, I'm just giving up on the discussion because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I think I've shown much more patience and politeness in this conversation than you can expect, especially as a person with a history of gender-related bullying.

I agree. You've shown a lot of restraint here and this thread was clearly created antagonize people.

Quotethink I've shown much more patience and politeness in this conversation than you can expect, especially as a person with a history of gender-related bullying.

the implication that i'm saying something bigoted is ridiculous

Quote from: Janszoon on Feb 07, 2023, 08:48 PM

Quote from: Marie Monday on Feb 07, 2023, 08:36 PMCalling this thread to a halt at this point rather than everything that went before seems ill-considered.

I'm not trying to degenerate this thread, I'm just giving up on the discussion because I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. I think I've shown much more patience and politeness in this conversation than you can expect, especially as a person with a history of gender-related bullying.

I agree. You've shown a lot of restraint here and this thread was clearly created antagonize people.

if i thought everyone agreed there would be no point in the thread - having a different opinion and expressing it is the cornerstone of discussion- and that's what i mean by wokeness going to far - the belief that an opposing opinion is an act of hostility

I think that if you meet an opinion or argument that you don't agree with in a space like this which is made for discussion, the best thing you could achieve would be to change the other person's mind about it. The only practically feasible way to do that is to engage the other person in a civil manner.

In a way, I think that's one of the great potentials of a forum rather than f.ex. the many facebook group echo chambers. So I hope people will see that opportunity and rise to that challenge. However, I understand it's not easy or even likely to succeed, so I'm appreciative of whatever patience and tolerance you can muster.

At some point, most meaningful arguments that could be made have been made and there's little further interesting discussion to be made. We might be nearing that point here.

sup guys :)

Hey, welcome jwb! :thumb:

Elon Musk says 'cisgender' and 'cis' are slurs (https://nypost.com/2023/06/21/elon-musk-says-terms-like-cisgender-are-considered-slurs-on-twitter/)

If only he cared that much about all the anti-trans slurs thrown at every slightly visible trans person on a daily basis on his shitty right wing echo chamber of a website.

Transphobes having a victim complex and making it all about themselves, as usual.

Quote from: Psy-Fi on Jun 22, 2023, 12:59 PMElon Musk says 'cisgender' and 'cis' are slurs (https://nypost.com/2023/06/21/elon-musk-says-terms-like-cisgender-are-considered-slurs-on-twitter/)

No wonder his daughter hates him.

The rise of terminology like cisgender and the pronouns thing is kinda interesting when you contrast it with Europe and the U.S.'s actual overall attitudes towards gender affirming care and all that. I've seen many people say that Europe is some kind of gold standard but most of the countries clearly have second thoughts on it, especially in regards to people below the age of 18. If anything, they seem even more stringent about it than conservative states here in the U.S.

I'd actually be fine with not saying the word "cisgender" if there were no longer a meaningful purpose to its use. All we need to do for that to happen is to just acknowledge and respect trans people's genders. If people just treated trans women as women, for example, there would be no real need for the distinction, we'd all just be women.

If right wingers don't like the word "cisgender", then they should stop necessitating its use by creating such division between cis and trans, lol.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Jun 22, 2023, 02:35 PMThe rise of terminology like cisgender and the pronouns thing is kinda interesting when you contrast it with Europe and the U.S.'s actual overall attitudes towards gender affirming care and all that. I've seen many people say that Europe is some kind of gold standard but most of the countries clearly have second thoughts on it, especially in regards to people below the age of 18. If anything, they seem even more stringent about it than conservative states here in the U.S.

This should probably have it's own thread but what are your thoughts on states banning gender surgery for minors?

I know I quoted you but this is an open ended question. Anyone can respond with their thoughts.

I don't think bottom surgery for minors is medically advantageous, but it's also happening so rarely that I think it's not the real issue. The idea that kids are just walking into the doctors office and getting bottom surgery is a disingenuous boogeyman from transphobes used to drum up support for wider bans on hormones and blockers, which actually are more effective if started early.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 22, 2023, 04:56 PMThis should probably have it's own thread but what are your thoughts on states banning gender surgery for minors?

I know I quoted you but this is an open ended question. Anyone can respond with their thoughts.

I think until we have a better idea of how effective gender-affirming care in general is (in the long term) its better to be cautious than not for minors. As Mrs. Waffles stated, its a rare thing for any kind of surgery to get slotted in as solution uno anyway.

As far as adults go, that's their business and whether it helps or not is up to them at that point. Most of the studies done don't seem to see a ton of benefits to most forms of gender affirming care, at least in regards to younger people.  There may be newer studies that add more nuance to the discussion, but a lot of the European countries seem to have already made up their mind about it.

https://www.city-journal.org/article/yes-europe-is-restricting-gender-affirming-care

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Jun 22, 2023, 09:00 PMI think until we have a better idea of how effective gender-affirming care in general is (in the long term) its better to be cautious than not for minors. As Mrs. Waffles stated, its a rare thing for any kind of surgery to get slotted in as solution uno anyway.

As far as adults go, that's their business and whether it helps or not is up to them at that point. Most of the studies done don't seem to see a ton of benefits to most forms of gender affirming care, at least in regards to younger people.  There may be newer studies that add more nuance to the discussion, but a lot of the European countries seem to have already made up their mind about it.

https://www.city-journal.org/article/yes-europe-is-restricting-gender-affirming-care

Just saying, that site seems very right wing biased and that particular article is very clearly worded with anti-trans sentiment, so pardon me if I take anything it has to say with more than just a grain of salt.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 22, 2023, 09:13 PMJust saying, that site seems very right wing biased and that particular article is very clearly worded with anti-trans sentiment, so pardon me if I take anything it has to say with more than just a grain of salt.

It is a fact that these countries are extremely averse in regards to prescribing puberty blockers and the like, much less surgeries.  I've seen commentary that somehow Europe is more progressive on the issue than places like California, but that doesn't appear to be the case.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Jun 22, 2023, 10:48 PMIt is a fact that these countries are extremely averse in regards to prescribing puberty blockers and the like, much less surgeries. Do you disagree with that or no.

I don't know anything about other countries, that wasn't what I was remarking on. I was just letting you know where your information is coming from so you can maybe take that into consideration when you post bold claims like "most of the studies done don't seem to see a ton of benefits to most forms of gender affirming care" so matter of factly.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 22, 2023, 11:04 PMI don't know anything about other countries, that wasn't what I was remarking on. I was just letting you know where your information is coming from so you can maybe take that into consideration when you post bold claims like "most of the studies done don't seem to see a ton of benefits to most forms of gender affirming care" so matter of factly.

Look at it this way. If they believed in gender affirming care's benefits as far as younger demographics were concerned, their policies and approach would be different than they seem to be. Their skepticism seems to come from a different place than, say, places like Florida or Tennessee that just see it as some kind of frontline for a culture war.

Anyway, I personally don't see a term like "cisgender" as a slur since we live in an era where these distinctions "exist".

Personally I don't see a meaningful difference between their "skepticism" and that of American right wingers insofar as being used to justify denying trans people healthcare. But that's just me.

I'm just so sick of cis people saying they know us better than we do. They can take their "skepticism" and shove it. I'm not gonna play nice anymore.

That

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 22, 2023, 11:52 PMPersonally I don't see a meaningful difference between their "skepticism" and that of American right wingers insofar as being used to justify denying trans people healthcare. But that's just me.

I'm just so sick of cis people saying they know us better than we do. They can take their "skepticism" and shove it. I'm not gonna play nice anymore.

you saying i see no distinction because they are denying them healthcare sounds highly dogmatic to me

It's like you assume it's impossible they changed their standards because they were no longer sure of them based on some of the results they were getting.  They were on the cutting edge of providing gender affirming care to minors and yet reversed course for some reason.  Which i don't claim to be intimately familiar with.  But it seems like a stretch to say the least to lump that in with some performative anti-trans culture war shit from the states. Unless you have just decided in advance that the only possible resistance to gender affirming care would be one which is rooted in transphobia. So are we completely writing off the prospect that delaying puberty might just have serious health implications?

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 23, 2023, 04:18 AMThatyou saying i see no distinction because they are denying them healthcare sounds highly dogmatic to me

It's like you assume it's impossible they changed their standards because they were no longer sure of them based on some of the results they were getting.  They were on the cutting edge of providing gender affirming care to minors and yet reversed course for some reason.  Which i don't claim to be intimately familiar with.  But it seems like a stretch to say the least to lump that in with some performative anti-trans culture war shit from the states. Unless you have just decided in advance that the only possible resistance to gender affirming care would be one which is rooted in transphobia. So are we completely writing off the prospect that delaying puberty might just have serious health implications?

If there are proven to be serious biological health risks, then yes, of course I would not write those off. And fine, that very well could be the case, but it has been my experience as a part of this community for nearly 20 years that a lot of the discourse around minors taking blockers (which it has always been my understanding are in fact non-permanent and reversible) has been a moral or a "what if they regret it" thing, and in my experience one of the biggest causes of regret or detransition has been being forced to deal with the amount of transphobic harassment they experience from others rather than being unhappy with their transition itself.

So that's what I was really referring to, the moral or social argument against it. This whole thing was a reaction to Nimbly saying the studies "don't seem to show a lot of benefits" or whatever. Like I said I will gladly concede if a reputable source on the adverse health effects is provided. I just tend to approach this stuff with a bit of my own skepticism, especially considering the site he linked was a very clearly right-biased source.

Late night edit:

I apologize for my forwardness. I do admit I have a tendency to lash out when people bring up trans discourse. I hope the people on here can understand just how exhausted we get from all the attacks, slurs, legal assaults on our rights, threats of violence and constant debates over our the validity of our existence, usually from powerful and influential people who very likely have never had any meaningful conversation with a trans person in their lives. Living in this current political and social climate and dealing with so many disingenuous bad faith posts online has made me extremely on edge whenever non-trans people comment on trans issues. Again I apologize if anyone felt I came off as trying to bite people's heads off.

So my take on states banning stuff pertaining to minors and how the right wing is carrying it like a badge of honor. It's so funny how they usually want as little government to be involved in regulations when it comes to companies and other things. Anytime there is an issue they feel is morally wrong they want the government to get heavily involved in your personal life ie overturning ROE V WADE.

Speaking of the over turning of that, I think today is the one year anniversary of that happening and I'm going to do some door knocking for planned parenthood. I do believe in the cause but mostly doing this because I'm getting paid 200 bucks for 3 hours of work not a bad come up. Chasing bags left and right lately.

Anyways back to what I was saying, I feel like it should be the parents ultimate decision because they know their child better than the fucking government. If their teen wants the surgery then go ahead and get it for them. Protect Trans Kids!

Quote from: DJChameleon on Jun 23, 2023, 11:20 AMSo my take on states banning stuff pertaining to minors and how the right wing is carrying it like a badge of honor. It's so funny how they usually want as little government to be involved in regulations when it comes to companies and other things. Anytime there is an issue they feel is morally wrong they want the government to get heavily involved in your personal life ie overturning ROE V WADE.

It's always hilarious to me that they claim to want small government since they consistently advocate for a large military, aggressive policing, harsher prison sentences, laws to control people's personal lives, book bans, etc. You know, all the hallmarks of a large, oppressive government.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 23, 2023, 04:32 AMIf there are proven to be serious biological health risks, then yes, of course I would not write those off. And fine, that very well could be the case, but it has been my experience as a part of this community for nearly 20 years that a lot of the discourse around minors taking blockers (which it has always been my understanding are in fact non-permanent and reversible) has been a moral or a "what if they regret it" thing, and in my experience one of the biggest causes of regret or detransition has been being forced to deal with the amount of transphobic harassment they experience from others rather than being unhappy with their transition itself.

So that's what I was really referring to, the moral or social argument against it. This whole thing was a reaction to Nimbly saying the studies "don't seem to show a lot of benefits" or whatever. Like I said I will gladly concede if a reputable source on the adverse health effects is provided. I just tend to approach this stuff with a bit of my own skepticism, especially considering the site he linked was a very clearly right-biased source.

Late night edit:

I apologize for my forwardness. I do admit I have a tendency to lash out when people bring up trans discourse. I hope the people on here can understand just how exhausted we get from all the attacks, slurs, legal assaults on our rights, threats of violence and constant debates over our the validity of our existence, usually from powerful and influential people who very likely have never had any meaningful conversation with a trans person in their lives. Living in this current political and social climate and dealing with so many disingenuous bad faith posts online has made me extremely on edge whenever non-trans people comment on trans issues. Again I apologize if anyone felt I came off as trying to bite people's heads off.

sorry for the late reply.  Been working a lot.

You don't need to apologize, i wasn't offended.  I was just pointing out why what you said sounded dogmatic to me.


I don't know that much about puberty blockers iah but the idea that whatever effects come from delaying puberty can be completely reversed seems intuitively implausible to say the least.

I don't say that there is no value in it, obviously if you want to transition then there is a certain utility to the idea of avoiding puberty but it's not without its trade offs. For example if you don't go through male puberty then you might not grow enough penile tissue for the bottom surgery.  All of this shit is like mad science to me that people are just experimenting with and them acting indignant at any sign of skepticism.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 27, 2023, 04:09 AMsorry for the late reply.  Been working a lot.

You don't need to apologize, i wasn't offended.  I was just pointing out why what you said sounded dogmatic to me.


I don't know that much about puberty blockers iah but the idea that whatever effects come from delaying puberty can be completely reversed seems intuitively implausible to say the least.

I don't say that there is no value in it, obviously if you want to transition then there is a certain utility to the idea of avoiding puberty but it's not without its trade offs. For example if you don't go through male puberty then you might not grow enough penile tissue for the bottom surgery.  All of this shit is like mad science to me that people are just experimenting with and them acting indignant at any sign of skepticism.

I gotcha, thank you.

Honestly I do understand and sympathize with your point of view to some extent. Transition is a big step to take for young people, which is why I do believe in medical evaluation, diagnosis and working closely with experienced doctors and support networks. And as far as I have read, puberty blockers are not meant to outright avoid puberty in all cases, just to stall it until the kid can be certain they want to continue further with transition. Those who do not can get off blockers and puberty will resume. That's what I have always read, if there are new findings from reputable sources, I will gladly re-evaluate.

But another side of the equation is how poorly out trans people are treated by the world at large. I still strongly believe very many people who do decide to get off blockers or detransition or regret starting transition do so not because they are not trans, but because of transphobes and the cruelty of the internet, media and political sphere that are committed to harassing, dismissing and demeaning trans people at every turn.

And as for the "concerned parents" who are afraid their kid is being infected by wokeness and was "transed" or whatever the conservatives say these days, literally all the parents need to do is not sign the parental consent form. Which is what my mom did. I wasn't even allowed to think about hormones until I was 18. Whatever my opinion is on children starting transition, it's actually kind of a moot point because medical transition is not happening behind parents' backs and the discourse around "the evil woke schools are giving kids hormones and surgery" is a disingenuous right wing moral panic. It's a non-issue. If the right wing parents want to deny their child hormones, they can do that.

I personally dream of a world where transitioning isn't as big of a deal. I dream of a world where some girls just feel happier living as boys, and vice versa, and that would be seen as the perfectly normal and valid thing it is. It is not "mad science", trans people have gotten medical transition for at least 50 years. It's no more mad or experimental than any other long term healthcare treatments, it's just stigmatized more because of society's frankly outdated puritanical views on gender. There is a literal laundry list of prescription and OTC drugs that are more dangerous than hormones. Speaking for myself, I'd rather choose to live as myself and feel normal in my skin than live in fear of potential medical problems.

My main point is that all of this stuff, from blockers to hormones to surgery, it is not something that is just given to kids willy-nilly. I don't think, with the world and society in its current state, that it's right for kids to just walk into a doctor's office and get gender affirming healthcare. And that's not what's happening, that was never what was happening. And if the science ends up being bad on blockers, I will support efforts to find other options to help youth transition. I'm here to help trans people in any way I can, I want to meet them with kindness, respect and understanding, and provide them with the kind of resources that I did not have when I started my transition in 2004.

I did not mean to come off as indignant, I admitted I lashed out and I apologize for that. Like I said I am so utterly exhausted by bad faith trans discourse that I do admit I sometimes take perfectly legitimate concerns and desire for information and clarity and treat it with distrust by default. I'm trying to work on that.

These rants are not solely or even mostly directed at you, either. I am not trying to imply that you are anti-trans or that you espouse the popular right wing views on youth transition, for the record. I just want to put this stuff out there to try to set the record as straight as I can for everyone reading, to use my nearly two decades of experience with gender transition to make the facts and my stance on what is proper handling of these issues clear.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 27, 2023, 05:05 AMI gotcha, thank you.

Honestly I do understand and sympathize with your point of view to some extent. Transition is a big step to take for young people, which is why I do believe in medical evaluation, diagnosis and working closely with experienced doctors and support networks. And as far as I have read, puberty blockers are not meant to outright avoid puberty in all cases, just to stall it until the kid can be certain they want to continue further with transition. Those who do not can get off blockers and puberty will resume. That's what I have always read, if there are new findings from reputable sources, I will gladly re-evaluate.

I did say delaying puberty, to be fair. And yes i think even just delaying puberty could cause long term side effects that are irreversible. Delaying a critical point of human development such as puberty seems like something that shouldn't be underestimated  in terms of potential consequences.

The use of these types of drugs for precocious puberty tells us right off the bat that the timing of puberty is important at least in so far as it can be harmful if it happens too early. But it's not at all obvious what the effects of a delayed puberty could be.

QuoteBut another side of the equation is how poorly out trans people are treated by the world at large. I still strongly believe very many people who do decide to get off blockers or detransition or regret starting transition do so not because they are not trans, but because of transphobes and the cruelty of the internet, media and political sphere that are committed to harassing, dismissing and demeaning trans people at every turn.

see this sorta sounds like you are invalidating the identity of said detransitioners by saying they're repressed trans people who caved to social pressure and not truly detransitioning because they no longer feel trans. Correct me if i have that wrong.

QuoteI personally dream of a world where transitioning isn't as big of a deal. I dream of a world where some girls just feel happier living as boys, and vice versa, and that would be seen as the perfectly normal and valid thing it is. It is not "mad science", trans people have gotten medical transition for at least 50 years. It's no more mad or experimental than any other long term healthcare treatments, it's just stigmatized more because of society's frankly outdated puritanical views on gender. There is a literal laundry list of prescription and OTC drugs that are more dangerous than hormones. Speaking for myself, I'd rather choose to live as myself and feel normal in my skin than live in fear of potential medical problems.

I said mad science specifically in regard to delaying puberty in order to make transitioning more effective or whatever. That is absolutely a fairly new phenomenon where the science is far from actually being settled. Despite the fact that it has become orthodoxy in the left to present it as such. That's frankly a PR move for the movement or whatever, and i can almost understand the motive but that doesn't make it less dishonest.

I don't disagree with you that there's a lot of posturing to sift through in terms of people's opinions on topics like this.  I also find that tiresome.

As for specifically the thing in sweden where they rolled it back to only being practiced in a clinical setting, a big part of the rationale is a massive unexplained surge in underage people seeking care for gender dysphoria, almost all of whom are AFAB. It seems they are being cautious based both on shaky evidence of the efficacy of these interventions as well as a massive recent unexplained spike in youths who are trying to get said care.

Here are the highlighted conclusions from a report commissioned by the Swedish government concerning gender affirming care for youths:

QuoteConclusions

We have not found any scientific studies which explains the increase in incidence in children and adolescents who seek the heath care because of gender dysphoria.

We have not found any studies on changes in prevalence of gender dysphoria over calendar time, nor any studies on factors that can affect the societal acceptance of seeking for gender dysphoria.

There are few studies on gender affirming surgery in general in children and adolescents and only single studies on gender affirming genital surgery.

Studies on long-term effects of gender affirming treatment in children and adolescents are few, especially for the groups that have appeared during the recent decennium.

The scientific activity in the field seems high. A large part of the identified studies are published during 2018 and 2019.

Almost all identified studies are observational, some with controls and some with evaluation before and after gender affirming treatment. No relevant randomised controlled trials in children and adolescents were found.

We have not found any composed national information from Sweden on:
– the proportion of those who seek health care for gender dysphoria that get a formal diagnosis
– the proportion starting endocrine treatment to delay puberty
– the proportion starting gender affirming hormonal treatment
– the proportion subjected to different gender affirming surgery

https://www.sbu.se/en/publications/sbu-bereder/gender-dysphoria-in-children-and-adolescents-an-inventory-of-the-literature/

QuoteMy main point is that all of this stuff, from blockers to hormones to surgery, it is not something that is just given to kids willy-nilly. I don't think, with the world and society in its current state, that it's right for kids to just walk into a doctor's office and get gender affirming healthcare. And that's not what's happening, that was never what was happening. And if the science ends up being bad on blockers, I will support efforts to find other options to help youth transition. I'm here to help trans people in any way I can, I want to meet them with kindness, respect and understanding, and provide them with the kind of resources that I did not have when I started my transition in 2004.

I did not mean to come off as indignant, I admitted I lashed out and I apologize for that. Like I said I am so utterly exhausted by bad faith trans discourse that I do admit I sometimes take perfectly legitimate concerns and desire for information and clarity and treat it with distrust by default. I'm trying to work on that.

These rants are not solely or even mostly directed at you, either. I am not trying to imply that you are anti-trans or that you espouse the popular right wing views on youth transition, for the record. I just want to put this stuff out there to try to set the record as straight as I can for everyone reading, to use my nearly two decades of experience with gender transition to make the facts and my stance on what is proper handling of these issues clear.

again your apologies aren't necessary here. If you say something that i think warrants an apology i will let you know. I would rather hear your honest thoughts than have you constantly second guessing yourself based on the percieved optics of the situation.

The "surge" of trans people is pretty explainable as information and general acceptance and support are a lot more accessible now than they used to be. Both positive and negative, the media's relentless coverage of trans people has helped more people give a name to their feelings of dysphoria. I don't think there's much truth to the "social contagion" theory. It's not actually a common thing to feel like another gender and I just don't buy that it's a trendy thing among the kids so everyone wants to do it. Not saying that's what you're saying of course, just common rhetoric used when talking about spikes in trans identification.

And I support detransition for any reason, and of course there are people who genuinely no longer see themselves as trans. I did not mean to imply that I think all of them are like that. But I do know people who regret transitioning because their lives were ruined by their own communities so I stand by what I meant.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 28, 2023, 01:45 AMThe "surge" of trans people is pretty explainable as information and general acceptance and support are a lot more accessible now than they used to be. Both positive and negative, the media's relentless coverage of trans people has helped more people give a name to their feelings of dysphoria. I don't think there's much truth to the "social contagion" theory. It's not actually a common thing to feel like another gender and I just don't buy that it's a trendy thing among the kids so everyone wants to do it. Not saying that's what you're saying of course, just common rhetoric used when talking about spikes in trans identification.

you put surge in quotation marks, yet this is what I'm reading:

QuoteSweden, like many other western countries, has in recent years seen a sharp rise in diagnoses of gender dysphoria.

According to the Swedish health authority, the trend is particularly visible among 13- to 17-year-olds assigned female at birth, with an increase of 1,500 per cent between 2008 and 2018.

Experts say the reasons for this increase remain largely a "mystery".

"Tolerance has been high in Sweden for at least the last 25 years, so you can't say it has changed," Landen said when asked if it was simply a result of a more accepting society.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/02/16/as-spain-advances-trans-rights-sweden-backtracks-on-gender-affirming-treatments-for-teens

Somehow you have the answer even though the experts don't.  Why is the rise so densely concentrated in AFAB teens if it is merely a result of trans kids feeling accepted? And what societal shift can you even point to in sweden that would lead to a 1500% spike in a single decade. You are just throwing out boiler plate talking points without actually trying to wrestle with the figures, imo

QuoteAnd I support detransition for any reason, and of course there are people who genuinely no longer see themselves as trans. I did not mean to imply that I think all of them are like that. But I do know people who regret transitioning because their lives were ruined by their own communities so I stand by what I meant.

you made it sound like the major explanation for why people detransition.  If not then i don't even know why you brought it up.

On the detransition subject, I did not mean to imply that is the primary reason, I said "many" not "most". I brought it up because a common rationale for banning youth transition is "what if they aren't really trans" and I wanted to offer an alternative potential explanation. That's all.

But maybe you're right, I admit I am not as educated on the subject at the scale we're talking about. All I have is my own experience and that of my close community of trans friends, and that is the perspective I speak from.

I'm deathly afraid of people using statistics like this to justify anti-trans legislation so I do everything I can to speak in defense of my people. But fair enough, I am not the right person to have this debate and I would like to excuse myself from this particular discussion. Thank you.

We are social animals and more or less everything about our selves is the product of "social contagion." We're shaped by social forces so diverse and multiple that no one could fully appreciate their workings on one's self.

In fact, the power of the idea of "gender," of "gender theory," comes from the realization that "one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman." To imagine that one carries a masculine or feminine essence, that there's a Platonic idea of maleness or femaleness within us that is independent of the culture we live in and the pressures it exerts is... just that: Platonic idealism. Which is to say, ultimately reactionary.

Quote from: jadis on Jun 28, 2023, 10:55 AMWe are social animals and more or less everything about our selves is the product of "social contagion." We're shaped by social forces so diverse and multiple that no one could fully appreciate their workings on one's self.

In fact, the power of the idea of "gender," of "gender theory," comes from the realization that "one is not born, but rather becomes, a woman." To imagine that one carries a masculine or feminine essence, that there's a Platonic idea of maleness or femaleness within us that is independent of the culture we live in and the pressures it exerts is... just that: Platonic idealism. Which is to say, ultimately reactionary.

I used the term "social contagion" in the sense that conservatives use it. They think trans identity is a youth trend among "woke leftists" and not a legitimate feeling and identity. Of course it is a social and cultural thing, I do not believe in innate masculine or feminine identity independent of culture either. But gender dysphoria, regardless of the root cause, is still a thing that manifests in people on its own, almost certainly against their own will, as if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be trans and open themselves up to a lifetime of the shit I've been through.

There are also multiple schools of thought on this mind you, not all trans people are agreed as we are not a monolith. Some think anyone should be able to identify as any gender in any situation, even if they do not have dysphoria, without pursuing medical transition or presenting a differently gendered appearance, and some think you need to have dysphoria and physically transition to be truly trans. My thoughts on that are... complex, and not really relevant to this topic.

Personally I do not think I have an innate "feminine essence", I transitioned because I felt intense dysphoria and knew being in a culturally female identity was what felt right and natural. But of course that is not independent of culture, because everything (aside from genitalia and body shape) that we perceive as "masculine" or "feminine" is culture and therefore not innate. But that culture is inescapable and it does lead to the very real diagnosable mental phenomenon of dysphoria manifesting in people.

So yes, I agree that trans identity is cultural. But that does not make it less legitimate.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 28, 2023, 02:59 PMI used the term "social contagion" in the sense that conservatives use it. They think trans identity is a youth trend among "woke leftists" and not a legitimate feeling and identity. Of course it is a social and cultural thing, I do not believe in innate masculine or feminine identity independent of culture either. But gender dysphoria, regardless of the root cause, is still a thing that manifests in people on its own, almost certainly against their own will, as if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be trans and open themselves up to a lifetime of the shit I've been through.

There are also multiple schools of thought on this mind you, not all trans people are agreed as we are not a monolith. Some think anyone should be able to identify as any gender in any situation, even if they do not have dysphoria, without pursuing medical transition or presenting a differently gendered appearance, and some think you need to have dysphoria and physically transition to be truly trans. My thoughts on that are... complex, and not really relevant to this topic.

Personally I do not think I have an innate "feminine essence", I transitioned because I felt intense dysphoria and knew being in a culturally female identity was what felt right and natural. But of course that is not independent of culture, because everything (aside from genitalia and body shape) that we perceive as "masculine" or "feminine" is culture and therefore not innate. But that culture is inescapable and it does lead to the very real diagnosable mental phenomenon of dysphoria manifesting in people.

So yes, I agree that trans identity is cultural. But that does not make it less legitimate.

Absolutely

(https://i.ibb.co/hshvz0y/5-B120011-7-A5-E-4772-B719-CD940-C3752-E5.jpg)

I would like to formally congratulate Dr. Peterson on coming out as trans! Love to see people living their truth. <3

I lol'd

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jun 28, 2023, 02:59 PMI used the term "social contagion" in the sense that conservatives use it. They think trans identity is a youth trend among "woke leftists" and not a legitimate feeling and identity. Of course it is a social and cultural thing, I do not believe in innate masculine or feminine identity independent of culture either. But gender dysphoria, regardless of the root cause, is still a thing that manifests in people on its own, almost certainly against their own will, as if anyone would actually CHOOSE to be trans and open themselves up to a lifetime of the shit I've been through.

There are also multiple schools of thought on this mind you, not all trans people are agreed as we are not a monolith. Some think anyone should be able to identify as any gender in any situation, even if they do not have dysphoria, without pursuing medical transition or presenting a differently gendered appearance, and some think you need to have dysphoria and physically transition to be truly trans. My thoughts on that are... complex, and not really relevant to this topic.

Personally I do not think I have an innate "feminine essence", I transitioned because I felt intense dysphoria and knew being in a culturally female identity was what felt right and natural. But of course that is not independent of culture, because everything (aside from genitalia and body shape) that we perceive as "masculine" or "feminine" is culture and therefore not innate. But that culture is inescapable and it does lead to the very real diagnosable mental phenomenon of dysphoria manifesting in people.

So yes, I agree that trans identity is cultural. But that does not make it less legitimate.

Not trynna start shit but just pointing out you seemed pretty open to the idea that detransitioners might be socially influenced in their decision, yet you seem completely incredulous that social influence could ever work in the opposite direction. It's not at all obvious to me why that would be the case.


To be clear, i actually do think social contagion plays a pretty negligible role in the traditional mtf and ftm version of trans people. But all the non binary type shit is a lot more abstract and less specific. My intuition is that social contagion could play a larger role in this group, though i don't know the data to be fair.

The artcles dealing with the situation in sweden and other European countries specified that the really noticeable jump in is the particular demo of young females.  That's also the demo that dominates the various versions of non binary.  I would be willing to bet money that the non binary contigency makes up the bulk of the spike, rather than trans men who are actually kind of rare even in the trans community.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 29, 2023, 03:02 AMNot trynna start shit but just pointing out you seemed pretty open to the idea that detransitioners might be socially influenced in their decision, yet you seem completely incredulous that social influence could ever work in the opposite direction. It's not at all obvious to me why that would be the case.

It's more that I'm just confused, honestly. It might be happening, I really don't know, but yeah, I really would be a bit shocked if people were actually transitioning because they think it's "cool" and a trend among young progressives. But I haven't spoken to many trans teenagers.

It's just, speaking specifically about medical transition and presentation, I don't understand why anyone would go through the absolute hellish ordeal of transition as a minor because they perceive it as a cool thing to do or something that will be a positive change for them. The only positive change for me was the lifting of the horrible cloud of dysphoria, and if the kids are purely socially influenced and don't really have dysphoria it feels like it just doesn't compute to me. I think some people detransition (partly, in some cases, mind you) to avoid negative social effects, but I dunno about transitioning to gain positive social effects, my experience has been the complete inverse of that.

But honestly, I may still be stuck in 2004. I haven't set foot in a school in over 15 years; I am kind of a part of a more old school trans experience, so for all I know the kids could have an very different perception of what being trans means. Like I said before, trans people are not a monolith, so yeah, perhaps it is wrong of me to act like a spokesperson for the community. I don't have all the answers.

It goes without saying that things have changed pretty dramatically since 2004.

As i indicated in the portion of my post you didn't quote, non binary identity types are much more prominent than they were in 2004 to be sure.

Case in point:

QuoteIt goes without saying that things have changed pretty dramatically since 2004.

As i indicated in the portion of my post you didn't quote, non binary identity types are much more prominent than they were in 2004 to be sure.

That is true, for sure. It's not an identity I have much experience with or knowledge about so I did not comment on them.

Believe it or not I have no actual opinion on stuff like nonbinary, genderfluid, xenogender, neopronouns or other identities like that, their identities are their business and it is not my place to speak on it. I use the pronouns they identify with because that's just common respect. But like I was saying before, not every area of the gender spectrum and associated communities is in my personal wheelhouse of expertise. I'm just some random lady, lol.

But constantly having to defend my own identity from the barrage of scrutiny and skepticism does sometimes suck me into debates where I am confronted with shit I just don't have the answer to.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 29, 2023, 04:48 AMCase in point:

Abrosexual sounds like the most non-committal thing ever.

Quote from: Jwb on Jun 29, 2023, 03:02 AMNot trynna start shit but just pointing out you seemed pretty open to the idea that detransitioners might be socially influenced in their decision, yet you seem completely incredulous that social influence could ever work in the opposite direction. It's not at all obvious to me why that would be the case.


To be clear, i actually do think social contagion plays a pretty negligible role in the traditional mtf and ftm version of trans people. But all the non binary type shit is a lot more abstract and less specific. My intuition is that social contagion could play a larger role in this group, though i don't know the data to be fair.

The artcles dealing with the situation in sweden and other European countries specified that the really noticeable jump in is the particular demo of young females.  That's also the demo that dominates the various versions of non binary.  I would be willing to bet money that the non binary contigency makes up the bulk of the spike, rather than trans men who are actually kind of rare even in the trans community.

I'd constantly hear people talk of how there are no longer any butch lesbians left in NYC cause they're all ftm now...

 

Helping Trans Kids Means Admitting What We Don't Know (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/helping-trans-kids-means-admitting-what-we-dont-know.html?utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=di&utm_medium=s1)

Geez, this is like the second weird thing you've posted about trans people today. At this point I'm just amused at how much we seem to live rent-free in your head.

QuoteGeez, this is like the second weird thing you've posted about trans people today. At this point I'm just amused at how much we seem to live rent-free in your head.

Weird how?

Quote from: jadis on Aug 14, 2023, 03:27 PMWeird how?

For one, the way it seems to care more about building up "the left" as a strawman. Like, oh no, trans people and trans allies aren't buying our skepticism of trans healthcare, so let's try to paint them as irrational by saying "wahhh, the mean old lefties called me Hitler when I'm just asking questions!!!"

It then goes on to try to debase the trans side's use of the "just asking questions" adage as being irrational as well, like it's so preposterous that we would be skeptical of their skepticism.

For the record, I think if there is concrete scientific study that trans healthcare for teens has long term negative medical effects, that is something to listen to and take seriously. I have made that clear many times on here. But if this magazine wanted to make that point, they could present the facts without all that whining.

Tbh I don't know if "just the facts and none of that whining" is a standard vocal trans activists and advocates can be said to abide by... Not from what I've seen.

If there's one rhetorical tendency I have seen is the inflationist one: the moment you question any claim made in the name of trans advocacy you're labelled as a genocidal Nazi by people who appear to have the emotional maturity of toddlers. In that sense I think the article is rather understated, if anything.

Where is the lie:

QuoteProgressive activists have not just embraced the gender-affirming care model; they have begun treating any disagreement with it as hateful denial that trans people exist. Indeed, they have frequently denied that any debate exists within the medical community at all... Over the last half-decade, as more and more reporting has revealed a persistent divide inside the medical community, the attempts on the left to deny its existence have grown increasingly strained. Rather than acknowledge the debate within the medical community and the genuine sources of concern, activists have continued to wish away its existence and attack those journalists who try to report on it.

The meme about "just asking questions" as a shorthand for bigotry does stigmatize asking questions, which is the single most important intellectual tool that we have. If you're asking questions, you're "just asking questions." That is poison. 

The problem isn't asking questions, the problem is us answering the questions and the questioners not accepting our answers. You really think the vast majority of trans discourse is coming from people who are asking questions out of genuine curiosity with no preconceived agenda?

Maybe there are some people who are questioning us out of genuine concern for the trans community, but when you've been existing online as a trans person for long enough, you tend to be able to spot bad faith discourse pretty easily. And I don't think everyone who is skeptical of trans healthcare and methodology is a genocidal Nazi, I don't think most trans people actually think that. We're just exhausted from having to defend ourselves from all the inquisitions and having our identity and right to exist nitpicked by bad faith "questioners" that some people lash out.

And that doesn't absolve the skeptics, either. Whether they have malicious intentions or not, them trying to question the legitimacy of trans healthcare is not helping us. Maybe we can have a more levelheaded discussion about the potential harm of puberty blockers without calling anyone Nazis when trans identity isn't being constantly attacked by the actual Nazis. But in my humble opinion, this is not the right time to be "just asking questions".

We all have preconceived agendas. This is why I like this article: it says that we should admit there's a lot we don't know and we should be open to changing our minds.

I'm not sure the tweets documented on this page (https://terfisaslur.com/) can be described as just some people lashing out.

QuoteMaybe there are some people who are questioning us out of genuine concern for the trans community, but when you've been existing online as a trans person for long enough, you tend to be able to spot bad faith discourse pretty easily.

With something as monumental as the redrawing of lines between men and women, the "trans community" are not the only ones affected by it. There are many genuine concerns to be had about a myriad of things here. Just one example that I already posted here of how "trans healthcare" can be driven by homophobia:

Quotea 60 something gay historian I'm friends with has a friend who was the first surgeon to perform transition operations on children in the state of NY. This doctor said that he stopped performing this procedure because he's come to perceive a pattern of latent homophobia of the parents who brought their young sons to him. The underlying train of thought, he said, is that "if our son gonna be a sissy, let him just be a woman and get this over with..."

Another worrying thing I've seen IRL is incels who transition while retaining all of their bottomless resentment toward biological women. The concerns one has here are not about the trans community.

The lines between men and women were redrawn like 70 plus years ago when documented medical transition began happening. This is not a new thing lol.

But honestly I don't want to keep debating you on this. I've said what I have to say, and really the root of this is just that your posting these links, both in this thread and the standup comic segment you posted in that thread, is honestly just really making me uncomfortable.

I took what you said to heart about me posting about my D/s relationship making you uncomfortable. I'm making an effort to dial back the more obviously kink coded things in regular threads. I don't want you to shy away from posting what you want. All I want to do is let you know that a lot of these links you post that have these takes on trans identity (not even specifically talking about this particular article) just really make me feel hurt.

I know I contribute by clicking those articles, but I sometimes feel like the onus is on me to counter what I feel those articles get wrong about trans people and stand up for my community.

This is how I feel. Make of it what you will.

Things that make us uncomfortable can be interesting though, or at least teach us something interesting.

For instance, in one of your responses you wrote

QuoteThey literally cite that right wing anti-trans person who got juice dumped on her in New Zealand, such an unbiased and reliable source.

In other words, part of the case against someone's reliability is a violent act done to them. Once you assault someone, that person's credibility completely goes out of the window because now s/he really has it out for you. The logic here is peculiar but not uninteresting.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 16, 2023, 12:07 AMThings that make us uncomfortable can be interesting though, or at least teach us something interesting.

For instance, in one of your responses you wrote

In other words, part of the case against someone's reliability is a violent act done to them. Once you assault someone, that person's credibility completely goes out of the window because now s/he really has it out for you. The logic here is peculiar but not uninteresting.

Lol, I wasn't saying the fact that she was juiced was a reason she wasn't credible, I just thought it was a funny fact. I could have said "that far right anti trans person whose rallies are regularly attended by literal nazis calling for violence against trans people", that would have been a bit more proper to get my point across I guess.

Fun fact: My sister was actually at that rally and witnessed that glorious event in real time. So proud of her :)

I'd chime in, but I feel like that whole trans debate against an american backdrop takes place in an environment I don't know and much less understand.

If it were here, I'd probably say most people just wanna figure out the best way to help kids/young people with gender dysphoria. They want them to have a good quality of life for as long as possible, but just diverge a little on the best way to achieve that. There's a lot of common ground and discussing it is a good idea.

But my current impression of the US is it seems like there's no space for people of slightly differing views to have this discussion, at least not in a way that's healthy. I can see one reason for this is that the issue has become politicized (why oh why?), but there's probably a lot more going on as well that I don't understand. It sucks because if you want to change people's minds, talking about it in an echo chamber isn't going to do that and neither is being aggressive or attacking people - whatever side you're on or what your views are.

So this post probably isn't worth much and my impression might even be very wrong, but that's my current two Norwegian kroners.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 16, 2023, 09:35 AMI'd chime in, but I feel like that whole trans debate against an american backdrop takes place in an environment I don't know and much less understand.

If it were here, I'd probably say most people just wanna figure out the best way to help kids/young people with gender dysphoria. They want them to have a good quality of life for as long as possible, but just diverge a little on the best way to achieve that. There's a lot of common ground and discussing it is a good idea.

But my current impression of the US is it seems like there's no space for people of slightly differing views to have this discussion, at least not in a way that's healthy. I can see one reason for this is that the issue has become politicized (why oh why?), but there's probably a lot more going on as well that I don't understand. It sucks because if you want to change people's minds, talking about it in an echo chamber isn't going to do that and neither is being aggressive or attacking people - whatever side you're on or what your views are.

So this post probably isn't worth much and my impression might even be very wrong, but that's my current two Norwegian kroners.

I agree with the sentiment, of course our only goal is to help trans people. In a perfect world I would agree with all of what you said. It's a difficult area for us, because as much as we would like to "reach across the aisle" and hear out different approaches, it's also true that there are a massive amount of bad actors out there and a lot of trans people feel like if you give the side that thinks trans healthcare should be more restricted an inch, they will take a mile.

I would be more receptive to the idea of puberty blockers being harmful if I knew we could all have a levelheaded discussion about it where I knew everyone actually had trans people's happiness as the goal. But it is hard for me to be completely trusting when that article spends more time whining about "the left" than providing concrete points against blockers.

So I would like to once again say that if there is in fact raw evidence acknowledged by both sides that blockers don't help trans people and should not be used, I will gladly honor that evidence. But as it stands I have reason to be skeptical of the other side's intentions and I stand by that.

I admit part of my skepticism is rooted in the fact that Jadis has posted several articles on here in the past that are, let's just say less generous toward trans identity. I admit I may be making assumptions about his motivations for posting these articles and questioning those motivations was part of why I engaged in the first place.

I'm just so exhausted from trans discourse from all sides honestly.

I gladly take this opportunity to repost this wonderful article https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/gender-neutral and if anyone wants to discuss it, having read it in its entirety, I'm all for it

QuoteI would be more receptive to the idea of puberty blockers being harmful if I knew we could all have a levelheaded discussion about it where I knew everyone actually had trans people's happiness as the goal. But it is hard for me to be completely trusting when that article spends more time whining about "the left" than providing concrete points against blockers.

Chait's entire point is that we are in the dark about the a lot of the long-term effects of something like puberty blockers and thus would be best advised to adopt some humility. Which is an idea alien to the twitter left.

Re the highlighted part: I am not sure I'd place the onus of proof entirely on those who are against chemically interfering with the body's natural development.

QuoteSo I would like to once again say that if there is in fact raw evidence acknowledged by both sides that blockers don't help trans people and should not be used, I will gladly honor that evidence. But as it stands I have reason to be skeptical of the other side's intentions and I stand by that.

You define the issue from the outset as "helping trans people". There are other ways to frame this.

Some see the issue as girls (it's becoming increasingly prevalent among girls (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/24/an-explosion-what-is-behind-the-rise-in-girls-questioning-their-gender-identity)) hitting puberty being uncomfortable within or alienated from their bodies.

QuoteThe definition of gender dysphoria is controversial in itself, and in England there is no consensus among clinicians over whether an adolescent's desire to transition should be quickly affirmed or they should be encouraged to pause before changing their name and starting hormone treatment.

The Cass report revealed there was "a lack of agreement, and in many instances a lack of open discussion" about the best approach to take.
"The disagreement and polarisation is heightened when potentially irreversible treatments are given to children and young people, when the evidence base underlying the treatments is inconclusive," it added.

Anyone looking for clarity from NHS England's most recent draft guidelines on how to support under-18s experiencing what it calls "gender incongruence" may not find it helpful.

Published in October, the draft seems to put greater emphasis on the possibility that, for some, particularly pre-pubescent, children, this may be a "transient phase".

Quote from: jadis on Aug 16, 2023, 03:02 PMYou define the issue from the outset as "helping trans people". There are other ways to frame this.

I define that as the issue because "helping trans kids" is literally in the title of the article. That's... what we're talking about.

And I stand by what I said about that "wonderful" article the first time you posted it. I think it's very much unhelpful beard stroking from someone who makes a hell of a lot of assumptions about trans "ideology" as if that were a real thing beyond "trans people deserve the right to healthcare and to be able to live their lives free of discrimination and hateful attacks".

The writer strikes me as someone whose exposure to trans people has been limited to the contingent of hard left very online gender anarchists, who, believe it or not, do not actually represent the breadth of the trans community. And the dig about respecting pronouns, as if repeatedly calling a cis woman "he" or "sir" wouldn't also be harassment that an employee could be penalized for. Honestly there are a million undercooked takes on trans identity in that article, but I have a kitchen to clean so I'm not going to bother.

I've made my position clear. It's clear to me that you have a different position. I've given you the benefit of the doubt and I have debated you in good faith. I even agree with some of your points on puberty blockers, for the record. But I cannot continue to give good faith arguments when you never seem to give me an ounce of credit that maybe I, as a trans person, know what I'm talking about.

You know what, for the sake of my own mental health, I'm done with trans discourse. I have more important things in my life than endlessly debating internet strangers in favor of my identity. Have a nice day.

The bottom line of Smith's piece is that Marty's critique of "gender ideology" is too sweeping. You haven't read it.

Quotea lot of assumptions about trans "ideology" as if that were a real thing beyond "trans people deserve the right to healthcare and to be able to live their lives free of discrimination and hateful attacks".

It is as simple as that once you decide that the only meaningful and legitimate metric is self-ID, and dismiss as bigoted and illegitimate the legion of questions that arise about the effects of, say, biological men declaring that they are women. That's where we differ. Personally I'm fascinated with the phrase "trans women are women." It really takes some proverbial balls to adopt as a motto a statement as stunningly circular as this and I love it. But we are still none the wiser about what any of its three terms actually mean. Least of all the verb "to be." 

If being born a woman is no longer the criterion of being one, what is then? Surgery? Hormones? Female clothing? None is universal so we're left with self-ID and anyone declaring oneself a woman must be recognized as one. 

What are some other categories the inclusion within which is based on self-ID? Or that have undergone a shift in scope from "XX chromosomes" to "it is whatever you want it to be"? Seems like pretty momentous stuff. There's more at stake here than the simple politeness of addressing someone by their chosen pronouns.

Are trans women women for the purposes of medical statistics? How about statistics on violent crime? Spousal abuse? I suppose some would reply to that with "let's not get literal minded, it can be sorted through common sense." Oh yeah? What yardstick of "common sense" do we adopt in each case so as to not make anyone feel excluded and discriminated against?

The answers to all of those questions are all out there and have been debated on for years. You can easily google them to find out what the consensus from the trans community is on these issues. Like I've always said, trans people are not a monolith and I cannot speak for the entire community, so me trying to give you definitive answers to those questions is not productive for anyone.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 16, 2023, 05:27 PMThe bottom line of Smith's piece is that Marty's critique of "gender ideology" is too sweeping. You haven't read it.

It is as simple as that once you decide that the only meaningful and legitimate metric is self-ID, and dismiss as bigoted and illegitimate the legion of questions that arise about the effects of, say, biological men declaring that they are women. That's where we differ. Personally I'm fascinated with the phrase "trans women are women." It really takes some proverbial balls to adopt as a motto a statement as stunningly circular as this and I love it. But we are still none the wiser about what any of its three terms actually mean. Least of all the verb "to be." 

If being born a woman is no longer the criterion of being one, what is then? Surgery? Hormones? Female clothing? None is universal so we're left with self-ID and anyone declaring oneself a woman must be recognized as one. 

What are some other categories the inclusion within which is based on self-ID? Or that have undergone a shift in scope from "XX chromosomes" to "it is whatever you want it to be"? Seems like pretty momentous stuff. There's more at stake here than the simple politeness of addressing someone by their chosen pronouns.

Are trans women women for the purposes of medical statistics? How about statistics on violent crime? Spousal abuse? I suppose some would reply to that with "let's not get literal minded, it can be sorted through common sense." Oh yeah? What yardstick of "common sense" do we adopt in each case so as to not make anyone feel excluded and discriminated against?

Possibly putting my foot in it - and if so I'm sorry (I don't wanna write anything hurtful/inconsiderate) - but with a background in biology, it is relatively clear to me what the biological definition of a female is. It's an organism that will, if given time enough or opportunity to express their biology, express the large kind of gametes (eggs) - unlike the male of its species which is the kind that would express small gametes (sperm).

If you're a human, that's decided by sex chromosomes. If you're a hymenopteran, that means you're diploid (have two sets of chromosomes) rather than haploid (have one set of chromosomes).

We need these definitions in biology to explain nature, evolution, ecology.

But trans isn't about population ecology, so when I think of this discussion, I always think that it's about gender identity - not biological sex - and then it doesn't really hinge on stuff like chromosomes anymore.

In essence, I think the biological definition is useful for population ecology, for medicine, etc. but not necessarily how we talk about / treat people in society.

Exactly. Nobody is saying we change our biological sex. There are relevant cases, for example, where I have to look up something medical that is filed under "male" and I'm not offended because I recognize that I was born a biological male. But Guybrush is completely correct in saying that there is the identity element, which is the gender I feel comfortable presenting as and being seen as in the societal landscape. Why is it so hard to have enough respect to just treat me as I want to be treated? The questions you're asking have their time and place, but trans people know ourselves better than you do and random strangers scrutinizing our identity up and down is not something we appreciate. In a lot of cases the answers to your questions vary greatly on context anyway, and I agree that "trans women are women", while true, doesn't say everything it really needs to.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 16, 2023, 08:41 PMPossibly putting my foot in it - and if so I'm sorry (I don't wanna write anything hurtful/inconsiderate) - but with a background in biology, it is relatively clear to me what the biological definition of a female is. It's an organism that will, if given time enough or opportunity to express their biology, express the large kind of gametes (eggs) - unlike the male of its species which is the kind that would express small gametes (sperm).

If you're a human, that's decided by sex chromosomes. If you're a hymenopteran, that means you're diploid (have two sets of chromosomes) rather than haploid (have one set of chromosomes).

We need these definitions in biology to explain nature, evolution, ecology.

But trans isn't about population ecology, so when I think of this discussion, I always think that it's about gender identity - not biological sex - and then it doesn't really hinge on stuff like chromosomes anymore.

In essence, I think the biological definition is useful for population ecology, for medicine, etc. but not necessarily how we talk about / treat people in society.

The word "gender" by now means many contradictory things. When it first came into use, in the 1970s, it referred to "sexed" social roles in a given historical context, that there's social, not just biological, determination to how femaleness (it was formulated by radical feminists) is "constructed" in any particular time and place.

But in certain current usage gender means something like "the true sex of our soul, which doesn't always align with the sex of our body." As you can see, the conceptual logic is reversed into something I like to call "Tumblr Cartesianism."   

There's no doubt that the idea of gender (as it was coined along the "Paris-Berkley axis" in the 1970s) is one of the most consequential and fascinating ideas to ever come out of the academia. But when one invests the disconnect between sex and gender with the weight of a dogma and proceeds to entrench it legally, there are shall we say unintended consequences. That's how you get Lia Thomas's cock in the girls' changing room.

"I'm a woman, just like anybody else on the team," says Lia Thomas (https://www.si.com/college/2022/03/03/lia-thomas-penn-swimmer-transgender-woman-daily-cover). Clearly, she has her identity as a woman, which is her own private business. But the swimmers forced to compete against her and share the locker room with her chose to emphasize things other than her gender identity and self-perception when they spoke about the situation.

If I were to put it very simply, I'd say those sort of troubles or conflicts are not so much trans people's problems as it is sport's problems. The times change, sports should change too.

There's a definition of sex we use in biology. If they want, they could (or already have) make up one or more definitions of sex to use in sports. Possibly, they could abolish sex/gender in some cases and let people of different sexes compete based on their likeness in other biological parameters - like more similar to weight classes in boxing.

Similarly, the changing rooms or policies about who gets to use them can be changed.

It would seem weird to me to limit people's freedoms because it causes headaches in some sport they may or may not be interested in.

If there is further interest in continuing with the trans stuff, perhaps moving it to its own thread, or maybe TR's "cisgender is a slur" thread could be a good home for this discussion?

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 17, 2023, 12:23 AMIf there is further interest in continuing with the trans stuff, perhaps moving it to its own thread, or maybe TR's "cisgender is a slur" thread could be a good home for this discussion?

Yes, this is off-topic here and so I've been thinking the same thing. I could merge it with that thread, although I abhor the title which seems to invite all sorts of silliness.

As OP doesn't seem to be around, maybe I could just change it 🤔

Edit:

Split aaand.. merged!

As far as trans-relevant news goes in 2023, this is the most curious point  - if Sweden and Norway (and I believe the U.K. and Finland to a lesser degree) are doing a 180 on some kinds of gender affirming care (which appears to be the case), then people should be paying attention and asking themselves why some of the most progressive countries on the planet are getting cold feet when they've been the biggest advocates for decades, especially when its the progressive politicians putting on the brakes and not some right-wing change of the guard.  Clearly there is more going on than we are aware of.  and it would be nice to get more clarity on their thought processes because it seems so different from what the U.S. says.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 16, 2023, 11:26 PMIf I were to put it very simply, I'd say those sort of troubles or conflicts are not so much trans people's problems as it is sport's problems. The times change, sports should change too.

There's a definition of sex we use in biology. If they want, they could (or already have) make up one or more definitions of sex to use in sports. Possibly, they could abolish sex/gender in some cases and let people of different sexes compete based on their likeness in other biological parameters - like more similar to weight classes in boxing.

Similarly, the changing rooms or policies about who gets to use them can be changed.

It would seem weird to me to limit people's freedoms because it causes headaches in some sport they may or may not be interested in.

Yet somehow these issues end up being women's problems. The one aperçu I love in Marty's book (and which the Tablet article doesn't mention) is that gender is really all about women. Every time we're out to transgress, subvert, redefine etc the paradigm of the relations between the sexes, it's woman's place in the world that's being called into question or redefined. For good or for ill. The last thing this entails is the braindead conservative position that we should stop questioning our gender mores, turn the clock back and settle for (or rather violently enforce) the way things were in the good old times. It means being more rather than less critical.     

What you say is "we'll find a solution, logistics is not the issue." What if, though, the problems that arise in the real world esp with regard to women are a more reliable indicator of what the issue actually is? 

There are no weight classes in swimming. There are hardly any female swimmers the size of Lia Thomas and it's also a matter of muscle density, not just size. Most importantly, no one impinges on Lia Thomas's freedom to compete with other swimmers who have the same anatomy. Surely in sports anatomy is of the essence? What is then this "freedom" someone like Lia Thomas is seeking? Freedom to do what exactly? I'm not suggesting she's a sexual predator btw, there's no evidence for that. But the narcissistic entitlement to invade women's spaces dripping from her every word is, in my view, deeply revealing of what swaths of the M to F crowd are really about, which is to say an aggressive men's rights movement.

QuoteIf they want, they could (or already have) make up one or more definitions of sex to use in sports.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm sure they can make up as many definitions as they want, but what would the effects be? When you make up definitions out of thin air and then enforce them in material reality, the consequences tend to be wild. 

It's pretty laughable that you consider MTF trans identity an "aggressive men's rights movement" considering how literally every trans woman I've ever known has been heavily anti-patriarchy and pro-feminism, with a big percentage of that being lesbians who want nothing to do with men.

I know you've posted some sussy stuff about trans people, but this is something else haha.

Oh I'm sure they're all against patriarchy and pro feminism, against all the bad things and support all the good things. These big words like patriarchy or imperialism or capitalism are incredibly cheap. Most of the time all they mean is "I'm one of the good ones so shut up."

But just as your typical anti-imperialist inevitably ends up condoning or perpetrating the type of atrocities he opposed, MTFs reek of male entitlement. They sound not at all like women and a lot like that which they claim to abhor.

Also I'm not entirely surprised that "trans lesbians" want nothing to do with men (what can be more natural for them than self-loathing?) and prefer the company of women. Lia Thomas, a bepenised trans lesbian, sure does.

Wow, you're really going full mask off with the transphobia and misgendering today.

Tell us how you really feel, geez lol.

Are there any prominent examples of FTM overachieving athletes in traditionally biological male spaces?  Pretty much every "controversy" I've seen out there in regards to sports seems to be MTF in women's sports.

https://apnews.com/article/transgender-treatment-regret-detransition-371e927ec6e7a24cd9c77b5371c6ba2b

^^^^ article is about transgender regret rates. It says that the regret is mostly do to unsupportive family and transphobia. AKA abuse. Far different than sOcIaL pReSsUrEs. The rate of detransition used be higher because people would bring their gay child who likes to cross dress in thinking they were trans, but since being trans isn't a choice of course they detransition because they weren't trans in the first place.

FTR the year these idiots that don't actually care about women's sports started whining about Lia Thomas a cis gendered woman, Kate Douglass, broke a record for winning 3 different categories while Lia didn't get gold in any.

But they don't know that. Probably never even heard of Kate Douglass because nobody really actually cares about women's swimming.

Also, OH is a cissy.

I feel like the trans phenomenon is really complex and it's important that we don't needlessly complicate it further with something as useless as hate.

But being able to say that 2+2=4 is not hate. When you see a person with a dick and sexual interest in women demanding to be labeled a lesbian and let into female spaces, it can be tricky to keep a straight face.

Not accepting someone's view of themselves is not hate. It's a basic right in a pluralistic democracy.

No it's hate, ignorant and bigoted.

And it's not a phenomenon, trans people have existed for a long time. It's just now entering the zeitgeist as we evolve as a culture.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 17, 2023, 11:31 PMI feel like the trans phenomenon is really complex and it's important that we don't needlessly complicate it further with something as useless as hate.

But being able to say that 2+2=4 is not hate. When you see a person with a dick and sexual interest in women demanding to be labeled a lesbian and let into female spaces, it can be tricky to keep a straight face.

Not accepting someone's view of themselves is not hate. It's a basic right in a pluralistic democracy.

What about a person like me, with a dick and a sexual interest in men? Do I meet your standards for having legitimate trans identity, oh great gatekeeper?

As I've already stated, I have zero interest in anyone's "identity". All this talk of identity is an American secular religion. Nothing but monotony and circularity. 

How society classifies gender, that's not only interesting but pertains to all of us.

I mean you certainly have a decently sized list of preconceived notions about our identities for someone with "zero interest".

But whatever you say.

Bitches ain't shit is universal

I am fascinated with the trans phenomenon, know quite a few trans people, have a professional interest in gender theory and so forth. And I find that "identity" is not a particularly useful or interesting category.

Maybe you and I just have different definitions of the term "identity" then.

It feels a bit weird to hear you say you are "fascinated" by us considering how extremely shallow and reductive (to say the absolute least) your takes on trans women are, but go off.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 18, 2023, 12:21 AMI am fascinated with the trans phenomenon, know quite a few trans people, have a professional interest in gender theory and so forth. And I find that "identity" is not a particularly useful or interesting category.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/327/176/e02.jpg)

I find that what you have to say about the issue is shallow and reductive. This is a story about, among others things, how our relationship to our bodies gets redefined in the digital era of online avatars and universal access to pornography; about how ideas seeping from the humanities get to impact medical knowledge; how the momentous advances of feminism are beset on all sides by men of all stripes driven to distraction by women and so on and so forth. All you've got is the circular mantra of identity.

Sure, Jan.

Obviously your mind on us trans people is made up, so I won't debate you on this anymore. Today was very enlightening regarding exactly what you think of us, so I do appreciate you being open and honest about it instead of trying to keep up the impression that you're not a transphobe. Thanks!

Quote from: jadis on Aug 18, 2023, 01:24 AMI find that what you have to say about the issue is shallow and reductive. This is a story about, among others things, how our relationship to our bodies gets redefined in the digital era of online avatars and universal access to pornography; about how ideas seeping from the humanities get to impact medical knowledge; how the momentous advances of feminism are beset on all sides by men of all stripes driven to distraction by women and so on and so forth. All you've got is the circular mantra of identity.

People have always been obsessed with chasing identity unfortunately. Look at all the religious identification and seemingly endless permutations of tribalism.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 17, 2023, 07:22 PMYet somehow these issues end up being women's problems. The one aperçu I love in Marty's book (and which the Tablet article doesn't mention) is that gender is really all about women. Every time we're out to transgress, subvert, redefine etc the paradigm of the relations between the sexes, it's woman's place in the world that's being called into question or redefined. For good or for ill. The last thing this entails is the braindead conservative position that we should stop questioning our gender mores, turn the clock back and settle for (or rather violently enforce) the way things were in the good old times. It means being more rather than less critical.     

What you say is "we'll find a solution, logistics is not the issue." What if, though, the problems that arise in the real world esp with regard to women are a more reliable indicator of what the issue actually is? 

There are no weight classes in swimming. There are hardly any female swimmers the size of Lia Thomas and it's also a matter of muscle density, not just size. Most importantly, no one impinges on Lia Thomas's freedom to compete with other swimmers who have the same anatomy. Surely in sports anatomy is of the essence? What is then this "freedom" someone like Lia Thomas is seeking? Freedom to do what exactly? I'm not suggesting she's a sexual predator btw, there's no evidence for that. But the narcissistic entitlement to invade women's spaces dripping from her every word is, in my view, deeply revealing of what swaths of the M to F crowd are really about, which is to say an aggressive men's rights movement.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm sure they can make up as many definitions as they want, but what would the effects be? When you make up definitions out of thin air and then enforce them in material reality, the consequences tend to be wild. 

I hear the weight class talking point a lot

Tbh women aren't even barred from the men's league. They technically can try out for the NBA etc they just won't make the cut.

But the same is true for most white men.  So we also need our own leagues pls and thx in advance :)

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Aug 18, 2023, 03:23 AMPeople have always been obsessed with chasing identity unfortunately. Look at all the religious identification and seemingly endless permutations of tribalism.

The view I represent here sees "identity" as a distinct and modern phase of how we conceptualize our selves  https://newleftreview.org/issues/i217/articles/eric-hobsbawm-identity-politics-and-the-left  I don't have any links in English, but the guy who was most horrified by what he saw as this new phenomenon was actually Foucault, the guy who showed us that sexuality has an ever-shifting history rather than an immutable nature.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 18, 2023, 04:02 AMI hear the weight class talking point a lot

Tbh women aren't even barred from the men's league. They technically can try out for the NBA etc they just won't make the cut.

But the same is true for most white men.  So we also need our own leagues pls and thx in advance :)

If you're a white guy seeking a career in professional basketball you should try the Russian and Ukrainian leagues imo. Two fantastic countries where basketball could use a boost

Women demanding inclusion in male sports is a cumtown bit lol

The whole thing about female-only spaces becomes funnier/more poignant after you read about the long and arduous struggles for women-only bathrooms in factories during the industrial revolution. Back then, the idea of a bathroom for women was unheard of, so they had to share it with men and would get raped on the reg. To avoid getting raped, they would fast during the work day to avoid needing the bathroom. Or go in large groups. So it's a bit ironic that once it looks like women get to live their lives with a degree of independence from male-cooked narratives, there is a vocal minority of fellas with some very strong opinions on who gets to enter women's bathrooms and locker rooms. 

It's funny to me to watch Jadis seethe about """fellas""" like me gaining access to women-only spaces like he knows so much better than all my cis women friends who respect my womanhood. Way to speak over women, you sexist.

And just out of curiosity, Jadis, what is your opinion on trans men? Surely they must have some secretly sinister reason for transitioning just like you think trans women do.

There's nothing secret about the following scenario: young girls feeling general misery, unease, discomfort with their bodies, not being who they're "meant" to be and so forth, and medics "medicalizing" it and labeling it as different conditions to be treated. In the 19th century it used to be called hysteria and in the 1990s it used to be called "multiple personalities disorder"* and now it's called gender dysphoria. There is a particularly dark history of medics deciding that the problem lies in the female reproductive system, which has to be removed, as in the theory of menstruation as a "nerve reflex" (https://brill.com/display/book/edcoll/9789004418240/B9789004418240_s005.xml) in the late 19th and early 20th century. On this view, the current explosion in the number of young girls reporting gender dysphoria (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/24/an-explosion-what-is-behind-the-rise-in-girls-questioning-their-gender-identity) is broadly akin to the enormous increase in cases of anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa in the 1980s.

On a personal note I can add that my response to this phenomenon is one of overwhelmingly greater empathy than toward lesbians of the bepenised persuasion. 



*https://www.amazon.com/Creating-Hysteria-Multiple-Personality-Disorder/dp/0787947946
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1998/04/06/the-politics-of-hysteria

Ok, so what about trans women like me who are exclusively into men? Where do we rank on your empathy tier list?

As with everything else, depends on who you are as a person. I'm the opposite of a rigid ideologue. At any rate, I'm really polite to everyone IRL

I used to be close friends for years with someone who was a beautiful gay guy and who first came out as nonbinary during the pandemic and then started transitioning. I supported this friend very closely and in particular repeatedly told them it was fine to drop out of a PhD program if your heart was no longer in it and you were going through stuff, because the main thing is avoiding self-loathing and self-flagellation and the rest will take care of itself. When we travelled to Montreal last year we even came to Quebec City (where they were living with their mother, not particularly happily) esp to hang out with them, only they were not happy I brought my gf along cause she wasn't smart enough to participate in our conversation. That kinda derailed things between us, which - I suspect - in turn made their (or whatever pronouns they use now) rants against heteros (read: against biological women such as his mother) on instagram stories even more vicious and unhinged.

Thank you for answering my questions. I appreciate your politeness and your general respect for people's pronouns. I think part of respecting people is taking them at their word about who they are instead of assuming the worst of them and questioning their intentions on everything.

At the end of the day all I can offer is my own trans experience and that of my close community. We're a very diverse bunch with different feelings on transition. I stand by what I said about your take being reductive, but really, at this point as long as you support my people's legal right to live our lives as we are, I don't honestly care that much about your little analyses of us.

I'm gonna keep living my best life with my wonderful fiance and my supportive community, and I'm not going to let transphobia grind me down. :)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8955456/

^^^^^^^^^^^

The brain anatomy of trans people is shifted towards the sex their gender identity aligns with.

It's not just an iDeNtItY phenomenon that's amplified by social media.

https://cadehildreth.com/gender-spectrum/

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This explains how both gender & sex are a bimodal spectrum rather than a binary.

Speaking of gender identity as if there is no biological basis to it just because it makes YOU uncomfortable is shallow and reductive.

Proves that you're just a bigot acting in bad faith with no true intentions to understand. I'm an uneducated dumbass with the same access to this information as anybody else so there is no excuse to keep being ignorant.

^ He's not acting in bad faith.  It's just that even if you are right, it doesn't really explain what is going on.

In Sweden, officials have seen a massive uptick in dysphoria diagnoses among 13- to 17-year-olds assigned female at birth, with an increase of 1500% between 2008 and 2018, and there is no explanation from a biological standpoint that can account for that considering they've been progressive and opening and welcome on these matters for decades.  The explanation we have in the U.S. of why more people would suddenly come out and identify as transgender makes sense if they were afraid to do so before, but that explanation doesn't fly in Nordic countries.

That article's explanation of the intersex phenomenon isn't correct though. "Intersex" is an outcome of having abnormalities of the sex chromosomes, which means that the person who was born intersex would have been either male or female if those abnormalities hadn't occurred. It's not a third category any more than saying people with methemoglobinemia are a "new" race of blue people.

These distinctions are why there is a ton of investment going into prenatal gene-editing applications in Europe focused around manipulating and removing/adding chromosomes, because most of these scientists view someone being born as intersex as a detrimental outcome for that person. It would result in them having to do long-term hormonal therapy or surgeries later on in life depending on their orientation.  It has nothing to do with identity (which is a nonfactor at the prenatal stage) and everything to do with creating better medical outcomes for the most amount of people long-term in society in a more significant way.

Lots of high emotions in this thread despite there being only civil discourse.

I understand wanting to be taken at your word, but Mrs. Waffles, I'm seeing a lot of projection and taking any discussion of the topic personally. For example, jadis referred to "fellas" and "lesbians with penises," both categories which you are not indicated to be in, yet I'm seeing a lot of "you think x about me" kinds of reductive and reactionary statements in response.

Lucem has a lot of links at the ready because he battles transphobia (among other things) in his community literally on the daily, but you both are seeming to react to everything being said emotionally, defensively, battle-ready, and as such missing the points that jadis is making that are not even that wild...

It's easy to call everything a "bad faith argument" but not everything is - jwb wasn't making bad faith arguments about trans issues on mb and jadis isn't doing it here.

At the end of the day there are a lot of questions, and a lot of people have varying degrees of familiarity with the topics at hand. And there are a lot of new and gray areas now that trans rights are very much at the forefront of the sociocultural stage - we have to be able to talk about them and through them without taking questions as attempts to discredit who you are internally.

The trans community at large doesn't need you "have their back" or defend their right to exist. Objective discourse can and SHOULD happen, even without a clear outcome.

Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Aug 18, 2023, 09:03 PMLots of high emotions in this thread despite there being only civil discourse.

I understand wanting to be taken at your word, but Mrs. Waffles, I'm seeing a lot of projection and taking any discussion of the topic personally. For example, jadis referred to "fellas" and "lesbians with penises," both categories which you are not indicated to be in, yet I'm seeing a lot of "you think x about me" kinds of reductive and reactionary statements in response.

Lucem has a lot of links at the ready because he battles transphobia (among other things) in his community literally on the daily, but you both are seeming to react to everything being said emotionally, defensively, battle-ready, and as such missing the points that jadis is making that are not even that wild...

It's easy to call everything a "bad faith argument" but not everything is - jwb wasn't making bad faith arguments about trans issues on mb and jadis isn't doing it here.

At the end of the day there are a lot of questions, and a lot of people have varying degrees of familiarity with the topics at hand. And there are a lot of new and gray areas now that trans rights are very much at the forefront of the sociocultural stage - we have to be able to talk about them and through them without taking questions as attempts to discredit who you are internally.

The trans community at large doesn't need you "have their back" or defend their right to exist. Objective discourse can and SHOULD happen, even without a clear outcome.

I responded to the "fellas" thing because I read it as Jadis accusing trans women in general of being men. I acknowledged his emphasis on lesbians, which is why I asked him if he thought the same about straight trans women like myself.

For the record I don't think Jadis's arguments are in bad faith at this point, he has been open about his opinions and I respect that. I also have no real problem with anything JWB has said.

I react defensively not to defend myself, but my community. I feel like Jadis has been attacking the integrity of trans people as a group; not everything he's posting is that, but I do think some of it is. I am exposed to transphobic rhetoric online on the daily, and it does bother me if it just goes unchallenged, so yeah, I do want to defend my people. I agree that Jadis has been polite, which I commended him on, and I agree that his takes on trans people are saner than your average conservative. I still think they are transphobic, and if me reacting the way I did to him trying to delegitimize trans experiences, not just mine, is "taking it personally" then I guess I am.

I have strong emotions because this kind of rhetoric, when espoused by those with power, does in fact contribute to actively harming my livelihood at the moment. But you're right in a lot of ways. I just don't know how to debate Jadis when most of what he has posted is just opinions and conjecture.

I'm not going to try to defend trans people anymore. We've come to a point where this feels like an endless cycle, and you probably know by now that I am not very good at debating. So I'm not going to challenge him anymore. As I said in my last post, he can think whatever he wants about trans people. I have nothing left to say.

I'm mostly just trying to impress upon you that no one here is actively against you or the experience of trans-ness - I just feel like I can relate to the urge to defend an entire community and know how depleting it can be, and in retrospect I see a lot of ways in which I have tendencies to react to my own inner workings rather than the topic objectively at hand. It's difficult to remove yourself from something that affects you on literally every level - I get that - I guess just wanted to express that you can give yourself a break, and you don't need to represent anyone but yourself here. I personally am more interested in hearing individual experiences than running through the same tired talking points at large. Like I'm certainly not saying this is a safe place lol, but generally I don't think you need to worry about defending tran-ness in general here. You know what I mean?

Quote from: jadis on Aug 17, 2023, 07:22 PMYet somehow these issues end up being women's problems. The one aperçu I love in Marty's book (and which the Tablet article doesn't mention) is that gender is really all about women. Every time we're out to transgress, subvert, redefine etc the paradigm of the relations between the sexes, it's woman's place in the world that's being called into question or redefined. For good or for ill. The last thing this entails is the braindead conservative position that we should stop questioning our gender mores, turn the clock back and settle for (or rather violently enforce) the way things were in the good old times. It means being more rather than less critical.     

What you say is "we'll find a solution, logistics is not the issue." What if, though, the problems that arise in the real world esp with regard to women are a more reliable indicator of what the issue actually is? 

There are no weight classes in swimming. There are hardly any female swimmers the size of Lia Thomas and it's also a matter of muscle density, not just size. Most importantly, no one impinges on Lia Thomas's freedom to compete with other swimmers who have the same anatomy. Surely in sports anatomy is of the essence? What is then this "freedom" someone like Lia Thomas is seeking? Freedom to do what exactly? I'm not suggesting she's a sexual predator btw, there's no evidence for that. But the narcissistic entitlement to invade women's spaces dripping from her every word is, in my view, deeply revealing of what swaths of the M to F crowd are really about, which is to say an aggressive men's rights movement.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm sure they can make up as many definitions as they want, but what would the effects be? When you make up definitions out of thin air and then enforce them in material reality, the consequences tend to be wild.

I don't really know Lia Tomas or what she says, nor exactly what you mean by wild consequences, though I'm not saying you're wrong.

What I mean, for clarity, is that sports can say - just as an example - that Lia Tomas has too much testosterone to compete in the women's league. I'm not saying that's practical or good, but they can make their own definitions to try and solve problems in terms of fairness.

That's a better way to handle the problem rather than telling Lia Tomas and other MTF persons that they can't or shouldn't identify as women.

So I'm just very simple and practically minded. Most people are not involved in sports, so let's not solve sports' problems by limiting the freedom and happiness of that huge majority of people that are not professional athletes.

About women being under attack, I do understand what you mean as women are generally much more intimidated by men than vice versa. But there's also the matter of helping trans people whose happiness we should all be interested in. I think in many cases, problems are basically logistical or have simple practical solutions and addressing that can make most people a little happier.

Not specifically to Jadis, but about the biology of trans people, I do think there have always been people who felt trapped in the wrong sex. There were cave women and cave men who felt this way. A minority of them were possibly XXY males or other sorts of unusual chromosomal types, but probably just a minority. I think it's more likely a mix between possibly some genetic components and the prenatal environment, such as hormones.

In addition to that group, it makes sense to me that you will also have  some people who don't have a trans biology, but are unhappy with their sex or confused. I think being simply confused to the point where you demand medical treatment at a very young sounds like a very small minority, but it makes sense to have some measures to protect them f.ex. if we're unsure if drugs might harm them.

As someone who often subscribe to utilitarianism, I'm admittedly probably a bore. I just think - without letting prejudice, normatives or preconceived notions getting in the way - how do we increase the quality of life for more people and for longer time spans?

The right of people to identify as whatever they want is as basic and unnegotiable in a liberal democracy as one's right to say "I will not be compelled to express an opinion on X." 

But someone's self-identification cannot be the basis for legal classifications that impact us all. This is where it stops being someone's private matter. The chain of events that led to Lia Thomas's cock being unleashed in the girls' changing room was triggered by amending a legal classification to one based on how people self-ID rather than what they were born as. This is a problem that's not confined to professional sports. It will arise in every office or public building erected after the women's entry into the job market during the industrial revolution, when we cottoned on to the reality that women need their own spaces where men are barred from. In every prison. 

A great example of logistical adjustments helping solve problems is the (occasional) addition of accessible toilets for the disabled. But the problem of someone like Lia Thomas seeking access to female-only spaces is of a different nature.

I'm harping on Lia Thomas's cock and will keep doing so because it's a brilliant example that goes straight to the heart of the matter. The way she speaks is very instructive too btw. In addition to the bit I already quoted about being a woman just like her teammates, see her response to the statement "Lia is a human being who deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. But it's not transphobic to say I disagree with where she's swimming":

QuoteThat argument is disingenuous to Thomas. There is no such thing as half-support: Either you back her fully as a woman or you don't. "The very simple answer is that I'm not a man," she says. "I'm a woman, so I belong on the women's team. Trans people deserve that same respect every other athlete gets."

In other words, this is not about finding a workable compromise that everyone can live with, which is how things are done in society. It's about something else, whatever you name it. I will say though that this tone is exactly what I meant apropos of male entitlement. "I deserve respect, full support, and access to the girls' locker room."

Part of the problem is that compassion and the desire to make everybody's lives better is NOT, in liberal circles, typically invoked apropos the feelings of the female swimmers who were exposed to Lia Thomas's cock. They did not feel that their lives were made better by the inclusion of Lia Thomas into their space.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 19, 2023, 11:46 AMThe right of people to identify as whatever they want is as basic and unnegotiable in a liberal democracy as one's right to say "I will not be compelled to express an opinion on X." 

But someone's self-identification cannot be the basis for legal classifications that impact us all.

Maybe. I haven't thought too hard on it, but am willing to try. Which arenas / spaces are being claimed or invaded?

The ones I can think of:

• Women's sports
• Men's sports
• Women's locker rooms
• Men's locker rooms
• Women's toilets
• Men's toilets

What else is there?

Let me chalk off half your list: men's sports, men's locker rooms and men's toilets will not be meaningfully impacted by any of this (in fact, making all of these open to whoever seems to me like a good idea).

Women's prison will, and are.

Healthcare: there are women who feel very strongly that intimate examinations and procedures on them should be carried out by other women. Having this standard can get you labeled as a bigot in today's climate.

Sleeping quarters in educational institutions. Like dorms and whatever it's called in boarding schools. Also, someone I know is offering a course centered around a study trip to Rome. At the hotel they will stay in, there will be four students sharing a room.

I mean, toilets alone is a huge part of our lives. We have to piss and shit all the fucking time.

I didn't post a picture of JWB I posted a picture of the guy in his pfp, Sam Hyde, doing a Nazi solute with another Nazi.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 19, 2023, 01:02 PMLet me chalk off half your list: men's sports, men's locker rooms and men's toilets will not be meaningfully impacted by any of this (in fact, making all of these open to whoever seems to me like a good idea).

Women's prison will, and are.

Healthcare: there are women who feel very strongly that intimate examinations and procedures on them should be carried out by other women. Having this standard can get you labeled as a bigot in today's climate.

Sleeping quarters in educational institutions. Like dorms and whatever it's called in boarding schools. Also, someone I know is offering a course centered around a study trip to Rome. At the hotel they will stay in, there will be four students sharing a room.

I mean, toilets alone is a huge part of our lives. We have to piss and shit all the fucking time.

I feel like you may be exacerbating some of these problems.

Like we don't typically piss and shit all the time in public restrooms. I mostly do it at home. At work, toilets are a single toilet behind a door for one person at a time. The public restrooms I visit the most are in airports, I believe.

Furthermore, trans people are relatively rare and shouldn't bother too many women. What I mean is it's not like public restrooms will fill up with trans people, even if they're included. And you also seem to forget that many women will welcome trans women in public restrooms. They won't be considered a nuisance to everyone.

About gynecologists. Women can change doctors (at least here) and if you can't trust a male gynecologist, I do feel like in some cases, that's a personal problem and shouldn't necessarily be the gynecologist's problem.

Overall, I assume the threat a trans woman represents to a woman will, on average, be many times less the average threat posed by a heterosexual cis male.

What's the harm a trans woman would inflict on others throughout her life by inclusion to restrooms and dormitories compared to the benefits to that trans person's life from being included?

As stated before, I think practical solutions can help significantly in maximizing benefits and minimizing harm.

I also do think there are significant, but less tangible benefits to a more liberal society, such as hopefully a greater acceptance for expressions of individuality and a further moving away from oppressive, religious values and dogma.

Do you feel like denying trans women's inclusion is best for overall happiness? Or what is your end goal / want for society's treatment of trans people?

I linked an article proving that being trans isn't just an identity you choose yet he still uses language insinuating that it is.


Also, trans women are far more likely to be sexually assaulted if you force them to use men's bathrooms than a cis woman by a trans woman or the nefarious myth of the cis male pretending to be trans to infiltrate the bathrooms.

So basically he's putting the comfort of cis transphobes over the safety of trans people. Totally not bigoted, totally not sea lioning, totally not in bad faith.

Also very weird that trans men are always left out of the conversation.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 19, 2023, 01:02 PMLet me chalk off half your list: men's sports, men's locker rooms and men's toilets will not be meaningfully impacted by any of this (in fact, making all of these open to whoever seems to me like a good idea).

Women's prison will, and are.

Healthcare: there are women who feel very strongly that intimate examinations and procedures on them should be carried out by other women. Having this standard can get you labeled as a bigot in today's climate.

Sleeping quarters in educational institutions. Like dorms and whatever it's called in boarding schools. Also, someone I know is offering a course centered around a study trip to Rome. At the hotel they will stay in, there will be four students sharing a room.

I mean, toilets alone is a huge part of our lives. We have to piss and shit all the fucking time.

I always thought the public bathrooms argument was weak as fuck. Transwomen have been using women's bathrooms forever and no one has been the wiser because in women's bathrooms there are fucking stalls. You go take care of your business inside of a personal stall and that's it. Everyone has to use the bathroom so I don't know why this is something people thing is a great fucking argument.

Also my public library did something cool. They have all inclusive bathrooms. Men/women can use the same bathroom they have a sign advising that you lock the door once you enter knowing that no one is inside after you knock. Men, women and trans individuals all use the same bathroom space not at the same time since you can lock the door but it's still a cool progressive thing to do. Prior to this it was only listed as male/female to separate the two. I'm so used to going to the right one because in the past when I worked at the library that was the male one but if it's locked I just hop over to the left one instead.

Yup. You all know what I look like, you think I'd feel safe if I had to use the men's bathroom at some dingy gas station on a road trip? Get the heck outta here lol.

And this is anecdotal, and it's my liberal city privilege speaking I'd imagine, but I've been using women's bathrooms for over a decade and I've had way more positive interactions with cis women in there than negative ones.

Imagine forcing Buck Angel to use the women's bathroom.

 :laughing:

Another thing about cis women that are scared of trans women using the bathroom because they might get raped. It's not the transwomen that you have to be afraid of. You just have to be afraid of rapists! Rapists are not going to stop doing what they are doing because of a silly little gender sign on the door.

Tore, first of all, not all of us live in Norway. It's a fucking jungle out there.

More importantly, there's a tacit assumption that it's women who should make compromises, to be more accommodating. What's more patriarchal than that?

QuoteOverall, I assume the threat a trans woman represents to a woman will, on average, be many times less the average threat posed by a heterosexual cis male.

Are we talking post-op or bepenised?

QuoteFurthermore, trans people are relatively rare and shouldn't bother too many women.

Once gaining access to the girls' locker rooms through self-ID alone becomes a universal reality, expect every last incel and every single weird uncle in the US of A to self-ID as a woman. 

QuoteWhat's the harm a trans woman would inflict on others throughout her life by inclusion to restrooms and dormitories compared to the benefits to that trans person's life from being included?

Awful. Dripping with progressivism of the ideological, reality-denying kind. What's the harm of the inclusion of biological men in those spaces where women are supposed to be free from the male gaze and penis? Creating a situation where a teenage boy could have access to a girls' bedroom is completely insane.

QuoteDo you feel like denying trans women's inclusion is best for overall happiness? Or what is your end goal / want for society's treatment of trans people?

There can hardly be an "end goal" in any field with many moving parts. One can rather have strategic objectives. Those that seem to me non-negotiable are maintaining women-only spaces and reining in the medicalization of children. No less important is avoiding an all-out backlash against gay and lesbian rights (beyond the homophobic hard right, that is), which the current abuses of "gender theory" seem to invite.

Jadis, there's a certain perspective that you're clinging on to, but it seems contrived to me. For example - in order to maintain it, you seem to have to exaggerate problems for certain people (cis women) while diminishing or rather ignoring the troubles of others (trans women).

I was hoping an answer to my last question would provide some insight into your inner workings on the subject, but not so. Overall, I get the impression there's some deep rooted values in you or something that require accommodation through some mental gymnastics.

I'm sorry if that's a complete strawman fabrication. It's just the impression I get. I'd love it if you'd convince me I'm wrong.

The troubling part is there is absolutely no evidence proving these things are an issue. Plenty of evidence suggesting forcing trans women to use male bathrooms will result in sexual assault, though.

So the idea that transphobic cis women shouldn't have to sacrifice their comfort to prevent sexual assault is just dumb.

And if you think it's patriarchal to have cis women let trans women in their bathrooms it's because you don't see trans women as women.

Well I was trying to conceal it but it's mask off now, you're on to my deep rooted Catholicism (typical of a guy born in the Soviet Union and specializing in the fundamentalist Christianity espoused by Michel Foucault)

You're an intelligent guy and I like you but I despise the Nordic brand of well-meaning liberal do-goodery. For instance, if you guys had your way every single Israeli would've been slaughtered by an Islamist mob. If I have any ideological convictions it's that the road to hell if paved with the good intentions of various hommes de bien. 

Calling guys with dicks "women" is an example of insane mental gymnastics but there's cultural conditioning that renders you oblivious to it.

Another thing you don't appreciate is that the medicalization of gender identity in America is an insanely profitable business. 

 :laughing:

My intuition is 2nd to none.

"Cultural conditioning" you mean like religion? I don't mean this as a roast or an attack on your faith, but it feels like you're trying to say that you can see through the "cultural" elements that we're oblivious to, but religion is culture. What makes your cultural conditioning more valid than ours?

And frankly it's not an excuse for transphobia either. My partner was raised Christian and still identified as such when we started dating. He never had any problem with me being trans.

I appreciate your candor, @jadis , and like you too even if you have a conservative streak.

And I don't disagree that calling biological males women is an example of mental gymnastics (though one I'm generally willing to do). In the future, maybe there will be a treatment that can actually turn a biological male into a biological woman or vice versa.

My own secret value that I haven't yet voiced is that I generally wish we placed less expectations on sex/gender and either think the whole biz isn't so important or just be more open to the fact that some men wear dresses and some women have big arms and love to tinker with car engines. But I'm humble to the fact that this view is unlikely to help anyone, may be irrelevant and is pulled out of the arse of someone (me) who ofc never really felt trans people's struggle firsthand.

Wow. You think you know how surreally dumb the average American is but no, you have no idea. Really wasn't trying to fool anyone with that low-effort stab at sarcasm.

In awe.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 19, 2023, 07:43 PMMy own secret value that I haven't yet voiced is that I generally wish we placed less expectations on sex/gender and either think the whole biz isn't so important or just be more open to the fact that some men wear dresses and some women have big arms and love to tinker with car engines.

Yes! If there's one thing that reinforces outdated gender stereotypes it's the idea that if a little boy has no interest in sports there is a problem the solution to which involves hormones and surgery. I told this story about five times on this forum, but,

Quotea 60 something gay historian I'm friends with has a friend who was the first surgeon to perform transition operations on children in the state of NY. This doctor said that he stopped performing this procedure because he's come to perceive a pattern of latent homophobia of the parents who brought their young sons to him. The underlying train of thought, he said, is that "if our son gonna be a sissy, let him just be a woman and get this over with..."

Or, if someone is shall we say a butch dyke, then she was born in the wrong body and should be subjected to medicalization. Not saying it as a gotcha or trying to invert someone's arguments against me, but I genuinely see this as bigotry.

Part of my problem with the MtF thing is the minstrelsy. Their performance of femininity is rarely anything but the most annoying and offensive stereotypes real women would rather move away from. 

If we're up for voicing our biases, I'm all for asserting that trans women are women, but I definitely have some internalized and undefined feelings about trans women that insist they have the same lived experience as ciswomen. Even though I have no trouble accepting that you (general) have *always* been a woman internally, it doesn't negate the time spent benefiting from living the male experience. Transwomen and ciswomen have a lot of crossover in terms of shared experiences, but it irks me when people refuse to say that the differences are valid. This is not a new idea, of course, but one that comes up a lot.

Also for the record I think jadis is speaking about identity not as a modifier in terms of it not being significant - I think it's moreso that he's saying he wants to move past that entire part of the conversation - because it is already known/accepted that identity is not a choice and it wastes time to virtue signal about it.

Most trans women I know do go through a phase of performative femininity early in transition as a defense against being misgendered and as a way to "prove their womanhood" to skeptical onlookers. But a lot of them settle into a more neutral style as they get further into transition and more comfortable being themselves.

I'm obviously an outlier on that, I dressed like an androgynous emo punk for over a decade before I switched my style up to be more hyper femme. That wasn't because I think my current style is emblematic of womanhood as a whole, I just like vintage glamour and my partner and I like having our little fun aesthetic. There are some things we do just because we like it.

It's frustrating because if we're not feminine enough, we're just men faking it. If we're too feminine, we're putting on a minstrel show. We can't win.

Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Aug 19, 2023, 08:04 PMIf we're up for voicing our biases, I'm all for asserting that trans women are women, but I definitely have some internalized and undefined feelings about trans women that insist they have the same lived experience as ciswomen. Even though I have no trouble accepting that you (general) have *always* been a woman internally, it doesn't negate the time spent benefiting from living the male experience. Transwomen and ciswomen have a lot of crossover in terms of shared experiences, but it irks me when people refuse to say that the differences are valid. This is not a new idea, of course, but one that comes up a lot.

Also for the record I think jadis is speaking about identity not as a modifier in terms of it not being significant - I think it's moreso that he's saying he wants to move past that entire part of the conversation - because it is already known/accepted that identity is not a choice and it wastes time to virtue signal about it.

I actually completely agree with this, which is why I personally don't try to assert my experience as being "the female experience". And of course I was socialized for 15 years under the idea that I was a boy, so saying there are no ingrained differences between cis and trans women socially or mentally is not something I agree with either.

But I also don't think there is necessarily a completely universal "female experience" across every single culture either. As it stands though I totally get you on this and I don't claim to speak for cis women on these issues. I don't have room to talk on some of them and I don't demand to.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 19, 2023, 07:43 PMAnd I don't disagree that calling biological males women is an example of mental gymnastics (though one I'm generally willing to do). In the future, maybe there will be a treatment that can actually turn a biological male into a biological woman or vice versa.

It is certainly possible, but I think if we understood human biology to that extent, hospitals and medical professionals would be focusing on analyzing fetuses at key prenatal stages to eliminate anything that would be considered "abnormal" in their genetic code since parents will be very proactive about that kinda thing if it is possible to do.  "Design your kid" and all that jazz.

That would cover everything from pre-cancer factors to repairing cell damage to unusual chromosome alignments.  With the way AI is going, they'll be able to analyze all these factors in an instant once they scan someone and then use something similar to CRISPR to make modifications.

One sci-fi series that showcased a more likely kind of future as far as biological sex/gender subject matter is concerned was Altered Carbon, where people are regularly transferring themselves between bodies. You could even grow a female version of yourself (genetically) in a lab somewhere and transfer your consciousness into it.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Aug 20, 2023, 12:27 AMIt is certainly possible, but I think if we understood human biology to that extent, hospitals and medical professionals would be focusing on analyzing fetuses at key prenatal stages to eliminate anything that would be considered "abnormal" in their genetic code since parents will be very proactive about that kinda thing if it possible to do it.  "Design your kid" and all that jazz.

That would cover everything from pre-cancer factors to repairing cell damage to unusual chromosome alignments.  With the way AI is going, they'll be able to analyze all these factors in an instant once they scan someone and then use something similar to CRISPR to make modifications.

One sci-fi series that showcased a more likely kind of future as far as biological sex/gender subject matter is concerned was Altered Carbon, where people are regularly transferring themselves between bodies. You could even grow a female version of yourself (genetically) in a lab somewhere and transfer your consciousness into it.

Yes, as it necessitates the exclusion/inclusion of whole X or Y chromosomes, it sounds well beyond the scope of CRISPR and more like something you do to a stem cell before growing it into a fetus, but.. if we're talking sci-fi, who knows what they'll come up with eventually.

 

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 19, 2023, 01:49 PMI didn't post a picture of JWB I posted a picture of the guy in his pfp, Sam Hyde, doing a Nazi solute with another Nazi.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Aug 20, 2023, 12:27 AMIt is certainly possible, but I think if we understood human biology to that extent, hospitals and medical professionals would be focusing on analyzing fetuses at key prenatal stages to eliminate anything that would be considered "abnormal" in their genetic code since parents will be very proactive about that kinda thing if it is possible to do.  "Design your kid" and all that jazz.

That would cover everything from pre-cancer factors to repairing cell damage to unusual chromosome alignments.  With the way AI is going, they'll be able to analyze all these factors in an instant once they scan someone and then use something similar to CRISPR to make modifications.

One sci-fi series that showcased a more likely kind of future as far as biological sex/gender subject matter is concerned was Altered Carbon, where people are regularly transferring themselves between bodies. You could even grow a female version of yourself (genetically) in a lab somewhere and transfer your consciousness into it.

Quote from: Guybrush on Aug 20, 2023, 01:39 AMYes, as it necessitates the exclusion/inclusion of whole X or Y chromosomes, it sounds well beyond the scope of CRISPR and more like something you do to a stem cell before growing it into a fetus, but.. if we're talking sci-fi, who knows what they'll come up with eventually.

none of this is going to happen

We're going to try to create AI to unlock these really complicated problems for us and instead they'll just fuck us square in the ass like the born suckers that we truly are

Only species on earth to design our own replacements.   

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 19, 2023, 01:49 PMI didn't post a picture of JWB I posted a picture of the guy in his pfp, Sam Hyde, doing a Nazi solute with another Nazi.

Oops, didn't catch this.

Sorry Lucem, that was my bad then.

(I removed his post with a photo)

I agree that when it comes to legislation things should be considered carefully and the unwillingness of some trans people and allies (not nearly all of them) to do that is not helpful. But neither is the attitude of many people who are critical about all this. For instance, you can discuss these things without sliding in remarks about 'real' women or the idea of a woman with a penis being ridiculous, which is also unhelpful, uncalled for, and just shows underlying irrational bias.
Then there is the old Women's Safety argument, which always focuses on the safety of cis women (as some people here have pointed out). I'm not saying this should not be considered, just that it should be done so on another basis than implicitly drawing the line of 'women' at that point, which is what usually happens.

Being someone who is gender nonconforming, I've had my worries about the implications of the gender developments, but I think they're doing for more good than harm. That debate gets soured by assumptions of what men or women are supposed to be, on both sides

When I had questions I got roasted by MB.

But I educated myself and now I know more about the topic than the people that were giving me shit.

With their questions (excluding JWB) they got answers but they don't like them so they moved goal posts and still got treated with more respect than I did.

Y'all need to do better at recognizing bad faith actors. I wouldn't be hostile towards someone if I knew their questions were legitimate.

Excluding me meaning you're saying I'm not a bad faith actor? You don't think I'm a nazi anymore or what?

I have to say you don't exactly seem like the bastion of knowledge on the topic you seem to think you are.  You're using peer pressure rather than an actual argument to try to sway people to your side because that's how you were probably convinced as well. 

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 20, 2023, 04:55 PMWhen I had questions I got roasted by MB.

But I educated myself and now I know more about the topic than the people that were giving me shit.

By who?

Good for you for educating yourself, but be wary of overcompensation. Some people get hurt and want others to experience the same, some people get hurt and want to prevent others from having the same experience.

Personally I'm just over the entire "EdUcAtE yOuRsElF" bitchy attitude surrounding all of identity politics. But I live in a liberal bubble of the softest, most oppressed, most victimized (white) queer people to ever experience hurt feelings, so I am generally irritated by the idea of people feeling entitled to only having positive emotions and never being questioned about anything because of how they ~identify. Not saying that's happened here, just a general gripe.

He sounds like he has fuckin stockholm syndrome lol.

LF like I had questions too guys but they roasted me into submission, so i decided to reeducate myself like a pavlovian dog responding to negative stimuli.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 20, 2023, 09:11 PMExcluding me meaning you're saying I'm not a bad faith actor? You don't think I'm a nazi anymore or what?

I have to say you don't exactly seem like the bastion of knowledge on the topic you seem to think you are.  You're using peer pressure rather than an actual argument to try to sway people to your side because that's how you were probably convinced as well. 

I don't think you're a Nazi or a bad faith actor. I think you're a troll. Batlord has had way worse 4Chan avatars. He's also a troll.

But Sam Hyde, the Nazi soluting Azov Battalion supporting cunt is absolutely a Nazi.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 20, 2023, 11:55 PMHe sounds like he has fuckin stockholm syndrome lol.

LF like I had questions too guys but they roasted me into submission, so i decided to reeducate myself like a pavlovian dog responding to negative stimuli.

I linked actual articles, you moron.

And I also didn't "reeducate" myself because I wasn't educated in the first place which is why I was asking questions.

I did it because I have a little something called empathy and a spine. I don't become a bigot out of spite. You Yakubian snow creature.

Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Aug 20, 2023, 11:16 PMBy who?

Good for you for educating yourself, but be wary of overcompensation. Some people get hurt and want others to experience the same, some people get hurt and want to prevent others from having the same experience.

Personally I'm just over the entire "EdUcAtE yOuRsElF" bitchy attitude surrounding all of identity politics. But I live in a liberal bubble of the softest, most oppressed, most victimized (white) queer people to ever experience hurt feelings, so I am generally irritated by the idea of people feeling entitled to only having positive emotions and never being questioned about anything because of how they ~identify. Not saying that's happened here, just a general gripe.

I'm not a dick to people asking questions in good faith. I'm a dick to people asking questions in bad faith. Because there is an epidemic of hateful and genocidal transphobia. Nothing to do with projection.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 21, 2023, 12:23 AMI'm not a dick to people asking questions in good faith. I'm a dick to people asking questions in bad faith. Because there is an epidemic of hateful and genocidal transphobia. Nothing to do with projection.

But is it not possible that your perception of good/bad faith questions is fallible?

Also you didn't answer my question.

No. I haven't been wrong yet. Dude literally outed himself.



Other than elph I don't remember. I remember Marie & WWWP being understanding.

Doesn't matter. It's not the point. Im not holding a vendetta, I understand why they assumed I would be transphobic. I'm white trash from Utah.

Fuck I do sound like I have Stockholm syndrome.  :laughing:

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 21, 2023, 12:13 AMI don't think you're a Nazi or a bad faith actor. I think you're a troll. Batlord has had way worse 4Chan avatars. He's also a troll.

But Sam Hyde, the Nazi soluting Azov Battalion supporting cunt is absolutely a Nazi.

saying I'm a troll is kind of a cop out answer to me. I'm somebody who does troll, but that doesn't mean everything i say is trolling.

When i made the comment about white men deserve our own NBA that was trolling. But none of the shit i said on that MB thread was trolling.  So if you have a problem with any of that, just understand it was not trolling.  Regardless of what that makes you think of me.

Regarding sam hyde, sure he seems like a nazi but he's a funny nazi.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 21, 2023, 12:19 AMI linked actual articles, you moron.

And I also didn't "reeducate" myself because I wasn't educated in the first place which is why I was asking questions.

I did it because I have a little something called empathy and a spine. I don't become a bigot out of spite. You Yakubian snow creature.

you want a nobel prize for knowing how to copy and paste a random article you googled?

Your artcle really doesn't even mean much in terms of most of the controversies surrounding the trans issue, which is mostly around stuff like puberty blockers, affirming  care, trans women in sports etc. 

All your article says is they looked at the brains of 72 people, 24 of whom were cis men, 24 cis women and 24 trans women. And in looking at their brain structures and trying to predict sex, they found that trans women's brains were somewhere between cis men and cis women although still closer to cis men.

So assuming this is even something we can extrapolate from 72 individuals to the entire population, what would it meaningfully change about any of the above controversies i mentioned? When you answer that effectively i will give you your nobel prize.

Gender affirming care should not be a controversy. The only reason it currently is is because conservatives invented a moral panic a couple years ago over something that has been done since the 1950s. Trans people's lives being improved by HRT is not some wild hypothesis.

The brain study is, if nothing else, evidence that there is something different about trans people's brains, something that, if the long and storied history of trans people means anything, has been positively affected by gender affirming care/HRT.

Cis people undergo hormone treatments as well for their health issues and nobody complains about it. It's not about the treatment itself but the moral crusade against gender nonconformity and an effort by the right to de-legitimize trans people.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 21, 2023, 02:58 AMCis people undergo hormone treatments as well for their health issues and nobody complains about it. It's not about the treatment itself but the moral crusade against gender nonconformity and an effort by the right to de-legitimize trans people.

100%

Every auntie has been using HRT for issues like hormonal acne and menopause since literally forever.

I'd like to see cismen be denied their T and see how morally panicked they become then. See how quickly their lackluster boners inspires a complete overhaul to the healthcare system. Boner pills are more accessible (and exempt from taxes) than tampons. Now in colorful chewable form promo code DUDEBRO.

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 21, 2023, 01:32 AMI remember Marie & WWWP being understanding.

Meeting people where they are since 1990  8)

Quote from: Lucem Ferre on Aug 21, 2023, 01:32 AMNo. I haven't been wrong yet. Dude literally outed himself.

Wait are you referring to this? v

Quote from: jadis on Aug 19, 2023, 05:57 PMWell I was trying to conceal it but it's mask off now, you're on to my deep rooted Catholicism (typical of a guy born in the Soviet Union and specializing in the fundamentalist Christianity espoused by Michel Foucault)

You're an intelligent guy and I like you but I despise the Nordic brand of well-meaning liberal do-goodery. For instance, if you guys had your way every single Israeli would've been slaughtered by an Islamist mob. If I have any ideological convictions it's that the road to hell if paved with the good intentions of various hommes de bien. 

Calling guys with dicks "women" is an example of insane mental gymnastics but there's cultural conditioning that renders you oblivious to it.

Another thing you don't appreciate is that the medicalization of gender identity in America is an insanely profitable business. 

Because this is so obviously a joke it's embarrassing to see you all self-congratulatory.

I mean I get now that the religion thing was a joke but the rest of that post tracks with everything else he's been saying, which is still really transphobic rhetoric. He's mask off as far as being open that he doesn't see trans people's gender as legitimate, to say nothing of all the other, even more unhinged takes on us he's posted.

It reads as absolute hyperbole to me, ticking all the boxes on purpose.

Idk about any of his posts on the topic outside of the thread though, so.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 21, 2023, 02:58 AMGender affirming care should not be a controversy. The only reason it currently is is because conservatives invented a moral panic a couple years ago over something that has been done since the 1950s. Trans people's lives being improved by HRT is not some wild hypothesis.

The brain study is, if nothing else, evidence that there is something different about trans people's brains, something that, if the long and storied history of trans people means anything, has been positively affected by gender affirming care/HRT.

Cis people undergo hormone treatments as well for their health issues and nobody complains about it. It's not about the treatment itself but the moral crusade against gender nonconformity and an effort by the right to de-legitimize trans people.

the controversy over affirming care largely centers around puberty blockers and treatment of minors. As well as the explosion of specifically young AFAB individuals in sweden and parts of europe who are identifying as trans. That's why they shelved the affirmative care model in sweden outside of a clinical setting. Because they were apprehensive about applying this model to a larger and larger pool of patients.  Especially since they didn't know how to explain the rise.  We have honestly been over this already.


And showing that you might find some differences in brain scans of trans women specifically doesn't demonstrate the efficacy of said care. Nor does it really reinforce the idea of gender identity being some sort of soul like quality you are born with. 

Think about it.  The gender theory on the left is based purely on self id. It literally is just an identity issue. If you are going to try to use brain scans to say that transness is a result of different gendered brain structures, then that would imply that if we have trans individuals who's brain scars don't resemble the expected outcome then we would disqualify them from being trans. But we would never do that because the entire point is just self ID. If you say you are a gender then you are that gender.  That's literally all there is to it.

That's why when they say they're seeing such an explosion of AFAB teens identifying as trans in europe, that does look at least superficially like an element of social contagion. I've yet to hear a good counter explanation by anyone for why they would have such a massive spike in specifically that one demographic.

As for cis people using HRT... it's not the hormones itself that creeps people out. It's the brave new world style approach of just artificially delaying the most important stage of normal human development to aid you in the process of changing superficial aspects of your biology to resemble the opposite sex. You have to realize there's no comparison between taking puberty blockers to delay an early puberty vs doing it to make for a more successful transition.

I don't think gender identity is a "soul-like" quality. And I also didn't say that people with that type of brain scan are the only legitimate trans people. If the science of it is correct, it might just be an potential explanation for some of us as to why our brains develop gender dysphoria, nothing more, nothing less.

Believe it or not, my ideas on transgender identity are actually fairly conservative and rooted in a more "old school" trans experience compared to the people on "the left" that you refer to. I'm not necessarily even saying there's no cause for concern with regards to some of what you've talked about. At the end of the day I think adults should have the right to undergo gender-affirming care, and to say the only things the right is attacking are blockers and sports is blatantly untrue. I am literally experiencing this firsthand; my clinic, which is affiliated with a Catholic hospital, has already banned gender surgery for all ages with the intent of banning hormone therapy.

It would be nice if we could focus on the issues that are legitimate concerns. But the right is not doing that. They're coming for all of us.

Dysphoria is something of a black box. The medical world has a ton of hypotheses about why it happens and what the causes are, but there's very little consensus. It might be another decade before they really know.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Aug 21, 2023, 03:32 PMDysphoria is something of a black box. The medical world has a ton of hypotheses about why it happens and what the causes are, but there's very little consensus. It might be another decade before they really know.

Yes, but there's some evidence still.

Quote from Wikipedia:

Evidence from studies of twins suggests that genetic factors play a role in the development of gender dysphoria. Gender identity is thought to likely reflect a complex interplay of biological, environmental, and cultural factors.

Sources cited:

• Gender Identity Disorder in Twins: A Review of the Case Report Literature (https://doi.org/10.1111%2Fj.1743-6109.2011.02567.x)
• Transsexuality Among Twins: Identity Concordance, Transition, Rearing, and Orientation (https://doi.org/10.1080%2F15532739.2013.750222)
• Approach to the Patient: Transgender Youth: Endocrine Considerations (https://doi.org/10.1210%2Fjc.2014-1919)

Hard to explain fully for sure as there's a wealth of variables to untangle and about genetics, there's f.ex. probably not a lot of identical twins out there with divergent gender identities.

Quote from: Marie Monday on Aug 20, 2023, 01:11 PMBeing someone who is gender nonconforming, I've had my worries about the implications of the gender developments, but I think they're doing for more good than harm. That debate gets soured by assumptions of what men or women are supposed to be, on both sides

I mean, a lot of it sure does look like some postmodern gay conversion therapy...

Quotegirls struggling with lesbianism are encountering pressure from peers and social media to identify as 'trans', and clinicians are going along with this 'self-diagnosis'. Lucy Bannerman in an article in The Times of 8 April 2019 concerning the Tavistock's Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) writes that 'So many potentially gay children were being sent down the pathway to change gender, two of the clinicians said there was a dark joke among staff that "there would be no gay people left".

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/9002/pdf/

Or consider this lady https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/parenting/a43702/transgender-child-kimberly-shappley/

If that's true, and I'm not necessarily saying it isn't, it's definitely something that has changed since I was a teenager since everyone in my life back then went to great lengths to try to convince me that I was a gay man and dissuade me from pursuing transition at all costs.

Clearly a vastly different social situation from what we know, but interesting regardless 
https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29832690

QuoteMarie, aged 37, is now staying in Kayseri after leaving Iran five months ago. She grew up as a boy, Iman, but was confused about her sexuality and was declared by an Iranian doctor to be 98% female.

"The doctor told me that with the surgery he could change the 2% male features in me to female features, but he could not change the 98% female features to be male," she says.

After that, she thought she needed to change her gender.

Hormone therapy seemed to bring positive changes. She grew breasts, and her body hair thinned. "It made me feel good," she says. "I felt beautiful. I felt more attractive to the kinds of partners I used to have."

But then she had the operation - and came away feeling "physically damaged".

She had a brief marriage to a man but it broke down, and any hope she had that life would be better as a woman was short-lived.

"Before the surgery people who saw me would say, 'He's so girly, he's so feminine,'" Marie says.

"After the operation whenever I wanted to feel like a woman, or behave like a woman, everybody would say, 'She looks like a man, she's manly.' It did not help reduce my problems. On the contrary, it increased my problems...

"I think now if I were in a free society, I wonder if I would have been like I am now and if I would have changed my gender," she says. "I am not sure."

Based on my experience and that of people around me, this kind of pressure doesn't seem that common. It's more likely something that gets amplified in sensationalist stories. In any case, what's wrong is obviously the pressure to align with a certain norm or trend, whether that's identifying as trans (as in this article) or as cis (as Mrs. Waffles describes). It has always been that way and the problem has always been there, it's just the the direction to which it points has changed in some cases.

Not sure about that. One thing you hear all the time in places with huge queer communities like NYC and Montreal is "where have all the butch dykes disappeared?"

There is no equivalence between "pressure to be cis" and the other thing. "Learning to accept yourself as nature made you" is not the same as "you're gay so we'll cut your dick off."

There are approaches in between those two extremes, though.

And people change things nature gave them all the time, it's called medicine and surgery. HRT has had incredible mental benefits for me and most trans people in addition to physical changes. Just like how getting on ADHD meds helped me mentally and getting various surgeries helped me physically. It's healthcare, and quite frankly my life would be much worse had I never pursued it.

I don't doubt that some areas of LGBT culture might not be discerning enough of different identities regarding trans vs. cis queer people, but that's a problem with those people and their attitudes, not a problem with trans people existing.

I like how "you should not think of your gender nonconformity as a medical condition necessitating a cascade of intervention" is an extreme position.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 22, 2023, 11:22 AMI like how "you should not think of your gender nonconformity as a medical condition necessitating a cascade of intervention" is an extreme position.

Gender dysphoria is a medical condition.

And I didn't mean extreme as in radical, I meant it in the sense that it's one end of the spectrum between "you're definitely cis, never do anything" and "you're definitely trans, let's chop your dick off" as responses to someone questioning their gender.

Perhaps I could have worded that better.

QuoteGender dysphoria is a medical condition.

I strongly suspect a link between your absolute certainty on this issue and your rushing to affirm my identity as a Soviet-born Foucauldian catholic.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 22, 2023, 12:13 PMI strongly suspect a link between your absolute certainty on this issue and your rushing to affirm my identity as a Soviet-born Foucauldian catholic.

I don't honestly feel that bad about being roasted like that, I admit I'm pretty sheltered. I don't know who Foucault is and I have little knowledge of what religions were commonly practiced in the Soviet Union. You're not hurting my feelings by calling me dumb for that, haha.

But my "certainty" on gender dysphoria comes from... you know, having had it.

See, in less PC times, meaning like five minutes ago, your medicalization (https://www.jstor.org/stable/23876179) would've taken a completely different path. 

Also I like how you think the gays and lesbians I know in Montreal and NYC are not "discerning" enough to know the difference between trans and cis. The idea that they don't reify labels and are instead attuned to socially determined movement and shifts between categories is so outside the realm of present day identity politics that it's literally unthinkable from within that realm.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 22, 2023, 01:36 PMSee, in less PC times, meaning like five minutes ago, your medicalization (https://www.jstor.org/stable/23876179) would've taken a completely different path. 

Also I like how you think the gays and lesbians I know in Montreal and NYC are not "discerning" enough to know the difference between trans and cis. The idea that they don't reify labels and are instead attuned to socially determined movement and shifts between categories is so outside the realm of present day identity politics that it's literally unthinkable from within that realm.

You do realize I was diagnosed with gender dysphoria nearly 20 years ago, right? You also realize that people have been medically transitioning since the 50s, right?

I don't know what your point is by linking that article. If you're trying to say that I would have been seen as "r-slur" in the 70s, not only is that wrong considering that there were plenty of trans people in the 70s, but even if that weren't the case, I don't think "people in the 70s didn't understand shit about trans people" is quite the gotcha you think it is. 

And by "not discerning" I meant moreso that the communities you're talking about who are "pressuring people to be trans" or whatever are not right to try to speak for others' gender identity. I'm literally agreeing with you, I think dysphoria should be diagnosed by a professional and if these queer communities are telling people they are trans at the slightest hint of gender nonconformity, I don't think that's right. But given all the other misinterpretations of trans people's experiences you've posted, I'm not sure I can trust that what you're saying about those communities is the whole story.

Nah it's a cheap gag about how someone as dense as you would've been put in this category (https://www.jstor.org/stable/23877291) back in the day. Not linking it to transness.

The larger point, that medical knowledge is subject to social pressures and shifting moral imperatives, I have no hope of communicating. But I'll try, once again: just because thousands of women in the 1990s got diagnosed with Multiple Personality Disorder doesn't mean that's a thing. With that vast array of conditions whose symptoms are only accessible linguistically, i.e. through stuff the patient says, the medical paradigm changes all the time, based on things like social pressures and shifting moral imperatives.

I understand exactly what you're saying, which is that you don't think being trans is legitimate. We've been through this.

You can question this stuff all you want, but none of it will change the fact that transitioning has been a massive improvement to my life in so many ways. I'm living my best life as a woman; I have no time for people who think my happiness is wrong. :)

I didn't say that and I don't think that. I don't apply any standard of "legitimacy" to people's identities. Everyone should be free to do whatever they want to their own bodies and to conceive of themselves in whatever manner they prefer. 

What I do say is that there are sharp limits to how far a liberal democracy could bend to accommodate this or that identitarian claim without infringing on hard-won rights based not on identity but on biological reality. The categories that inform our laws should be based on sex rather than self-ID. I think that Jessica Yaniv should define herself however she wants to. I also know that the moment we accept the absurdly circular mantra of "trans women are women" as the basis for a legal definition, that's when Jessica Yaniv has a legal basis to coerce femal beauticians into giving her dick and balls a Brazilian wax. That's all I'm saying. 

Good to know, though you could have fooled me with all your talk earlier in the thread about how trans women are actually misogynistic predatory men.

Some of them clearly are, as are some cis men. The point is to keep both out of single-sex women's spaces.

But that whole unpleasantness only needs to arise once political claims are made.

Quote from: jadis on Aug 22, 2023, 11:00 AMNot sure about that. One thing you hear all the time in places with huge queer communities like NYC and Montreal is "where have all the butch dykes disappeared?"

There is no equivalence between "pressure to be cis" and the other thing. "Learning to accept yourself as nature made you" is not the same as "you're gay so we'll cut your dick off."

that's a wildly unfair way of exaggerating and phrasing, in the first place because being trans doesn't necessarily mean getting surgery. In which case, identifying as trans can just be a matter of learning to accept yourself as nature made you.

Adding to this, as I said before, when it comes to impactful things like surgery and laws, of course care needs to be taken. But these are practical matters and I believe in most cases there are pragmatic solutions that retain everyone's dignity. What is very telling is that generally, people who voice their worries about these things don't focus on the such solutions, but on the identity aspect, which indicates what they're really concerned with. And that's a fair discussion to be had too, if done respectfully, but not when the two are dishonestly mingled.

When it comes to the identity matter, more good than harm will be done. That's what I was trying to say before. Ultimately, someone's gender should carry as little weight as possible and making gender identity flexible is the most natural way to achieve that imo

There should be absolute clarity regarding the law, that would make "practical solutions" easier to put forward and would disengage them from the political realm. Disengaging from the political realm is an impossibility when discussing say the Canadian penitentiary system, where a self-ID based categorization resulted in women being locked up with male sex offenders. There are things that are nonnegotiable, where no half-way compromise is feasible. Legal definitions cannot be drawn on the basis of self-ID.

I never focus on anyone's identity. I have focused on Lia Thomas's penis being unleashed in the female locker room and on Jessica Yaniv's cock and balls vis-à-vis the whole vaxing situation. That's not identity. You're born with this shit. I have it too, just like Lia Thomas and Jessica Yaniv, and I don't even know or care what my fucking identity is.

I thought the issue with Lia was that her AMAB body gave her an unfair advantage in swimming, not that she made cis women uncomfortable in the locker room.

@jadis I'm not talking about half-way compromises. I'm talking exactly about not focusing on gender when you don't have to make things about gender, and yet people always do that; the question of whether someone with a penis who identifies as a woman is a 'real' woman does not have to enter into these solutions, but you were talking about that too. I'll admit to not having read the discussion very thoroughly though, so I could be misjudging things

There can be more than one issue, as the case of Lia Thomas attests.

Quote"We were not forewarned beforehand that we would be sharing a locker room with Lia. We did not give our consent, they did not ask for our consent, but in that locker room we turned around, and there's a 6'4" biological man dropping his pants and watching us undress, and we were exposed to male genitalia," Gaines said.

Quotenother important aspect of this is the concerns of the female swimmers allegedly being ignored by UPenn officials. The letter speaks of incidents in which team members allegedly "have raised their concerns with the coach, trying to get Thomas ousted from the female locker room, but got nowhere."

"'Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,' a UPenn swimmer stated. 'But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there's nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room.'"

Imagine that, if you will, for a second — female swimmers must either accept a male walking around naked, exposing male genitalia, or else be forced not to use the female locker room.

"'It's really upsetting because Lia doesn't seem to care how it makes anyone else feel. ... The 35 of us are just supposed to accept being uncomfortable in our own space and locker room, for like, the feelings of one.'"

Quote from: Marie Monday on Aug 22, 2023, 05:31 PM@jadis I'm not talking about half-way compromises. I'm talking exactly about not focusing on gender when you don't have to make things about gender, and yet people always do that; the question of whether someone with a penis who identifies as a woman is a 'real' woman does not have to enter into these solutions, but you were talking about that too. I'll admit to not having read the discussion very thoroughly though, so I could be misjudging things

Fair enough. I usually refer to "biological women" cause that's what I mean but there was one slip: the one time I got annoyed in this thread, it was when Tore spoke about "mental gymnastics" re something that's to me as straightforward as it comes, i.e. keeping biological men out of same-sex female spaces. 

Beyond insisting on the biological basis for legal definitions, I'm no more invested in any idea of a "real woman" (what would this even mean) than in the idea of a "real man" or whatever. These are outdated and violent gender ideologies (and btw I happy to have occasion to use the word "gender" in its original sense, as it was used by 1970s feminists).

I personally have never been in a situation like Lia's, but I still think there can be more nuance to those situations. I'm sure seeing my shriveled up and barely visible wiener would make some people uncomfortable, but by that same token I would feel extremely unsafe in a locker room full of jacked, probably transphobic men. We've also been through this discussion before. I don't claim to know the answer, but I don't think a law that forces trans women into male locker rooms would be a great solution.

@jadis Yeah just to be clear I objected to some things you said here but I never considered you a raging transphobe or something like that.
Do keep in mind though that using a biological basis (as in, biological sex) for such laws is not always as straightforward and suitable a solution as it seems. A trans woman is not safe in a biological men's locker room, for instance.

Edit: oh nvm I didn't see lexis post yet when I wrote the above

Quote from: Marie Monday on Aug 22, 2023, 05:56 PM@jadis Yeah just to be clear I objected to some things you said here but I never considered you a raging transphobe or something like that.

On a personal level I'm always happy to hear you have a positive opinion of me.

But I also don't mind those labels all that much cause I know my position and what's behind it, and if someone thinks it makes me a bigot I can live with that.

QuoteDo keep in mind though that using a biological basis (as in, biological sex) for such laws is not always as straightforward and suitable a solution as it seems. A trans woman is not safe in a biological men's locker room, for instance.

You never get a perfect solution that pleases everyone in the realm of politics. There's a price to everything.

The price of tolerance for ID-based definitions was paid by, for example, the indigenous woman in Canada locked up with a "trans woman" whose affect and body language reminded her of her abuser, dredging up years of horror. Here I can only restate my position that it's imperative there be no loopholes in the legal categorization of the sexes.

Once that is in place, I'm all for logistical solutions that would reduce risks for trans women.   

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Aug 21, 2023, 05:58 AMI don't think gender identity is a "soul-like" quality. And I also didn't say that people with that type of brain scan are the only legitimate trans people. If the science of it is correct, it might just be an potential explanation for some of us as to why our brains develop gender dysphoria, nothing more, nothing less.

Believe it or not, my ideas on transgender identity are actually fairly conservative and rooted in a more "old school" trans experience compared to the people on "the left" that you refer to. I'm not necessarily even saying there's no cause for concern with regards to some of what you've talked about. At the end of the day I think adults should have the right to undergo gender-affirming care, and to say the only things the right is attacking are blockers and sports is blatantly untrue. I am literally experiencing this firsthand; my clinic, which is affiliated with a Catholic hospital, has already banned gender surgery for all ages with the intent of banning hormone therapy.

It would be nice if we could focus on the issues that are legitimate concerns. But the right is not doing that. They're coming for all of us.

i agree with the bolded. I just think that is ultimately inconsequential in terms of determining whether trans people deserve access xyz care.  Even if they don't have different brain structures, the arguments would be and are the same. So its an irrelevant sort of appeal to nature in my book and doesn't actually change the conversation behind it.

The way that i see it, there is a broader ideology concerning gender which a lot of the activists adhere to which ranges from just being deeply critical of gender roles to full on gender abolition.  And so the more complicated configurations of gender identities that are currently emerging in the modern context are coming from this ideological decoupling of gender from sex and critical analysis of gender roles.  It's at the very least partially ideological.  It makes sense that waves of AFAB teens would identify as non binary rather than us see an explosion in people actually going full on ftm or mtf. Because it's more ambiguous and requires less actual dedication but you still get the label of being trans, which has become trendy among wanting to feel marginialized white people.

Yeah the more I discuss this stuff the more I realize I'm definitely coming at it from my own ingrained paradigm, or as I've described it, a more "old school" trans experience, which I feel is distinct from the stuff that is closer to gender abolition and gender anarchy and such. That stuff did exist in my day too but it felt to me at the time like most trans people were either MTF or FTM and generally more concerned with blending in than a lot of gen z trans culture.

I don't think my trans experience is more correct or superior of course, but my posts on this subject are definitely more informed by the kind of trans experience I had as a young transitioner.

I honestly feel very out of touch with a lot of younger trans people and modern trans culture.

I think that the way it is connected is  transgender people a few decades were obviously more conventional on average in terms of presentation, but the general idea that sex and gender are distinct identity categories that don't have to correspond is something that has relatively recently emerged as a sort of mainstream opinion. 

And it was introduced basically to be inclusive towards trans people, which at that time were overwhelmingly  associated with mtf. So i understand the motive behind that.  But from that you almost naturally will construct the current model which does rest more or less exclusively on self id, for better or worse. 

Meaning the only metric by which you can determine someone's gender identity is based on what they themselves conceptualize their gender as. Which is essentially boundless. There's no emphasis on clear categorization. If anything the emphasis seems to be more so on seeing exactly how obscure and self indulgent one can get when categorizing their own gender.  Which is the exact opposite vibe i get from trans women who, at the very least, are very clear about what they want to be. But i do think this type of thinking flows fairly naturally from decoupling sex and gender.  Which is what makes it a complicated dynamic.

I can relate to feeling out of touch with it though. Obviously i am also pretty out of touch with the non binary squad. I only ever hear about this shit online tbh. I used to be what you might consider transphobic in that i basically regarded it as a mass delusion that society was indulging out of some sense of misguided politeness.

But what has shifted my thinking is coming to terms with the fact that there isn't an obvious better answer than transitioning.  It seems like such a drastic step that i had a hard time coming to terms with it. But if there's not a better answer I'm not going to sit here and be stubborn about it.

I think that's a big part of what people say about you get more conservative as you get older.  It's not even that.  You stay the same and society just keeps evolving without you until you no longer recognize it and people are chastizing you for not getting on board with something to you that seems literally  insane and completely alien.

I can only imagine the kind of fucked up cyber punk dystopian future these little demons have in store for me if i ever have the honor of living long enough to no longer be able to wipe my own ass. Shit is going suck lol.

Quote from: Jwb on Aug 23, 2023, 02:32 AMI think that's a big part of what people say about you get more conservative as you get older.  It's not even that.  You stay the same and society just keeps evolving without you until you no longer recognize it and people are chastizing you for not getting on board with something to you that seems literally  insane and completely alien.

Yup. I always still treat the younger generation of trans people with respect and try to meet them with support and understanding, I'm not nearly qualified to speak on their experiences after all, but sometimes I can't help but feel like my community has expanded to encompass so many more different experiences and attitudes in the past 20 years that I feel like I'm expected to be able to keep up with, but I just can't keep up with all of them.

But I also feel a bit detached from a lot of IRL and online LGBT communities in general for other reasons than generational; I grew up hanging in a lot of very queer punk circles, and as I've gotten older I've felt less and less like I identify with a lot of the adjacent culture to that. I guess these days I kinda just want to be a suburban normie, have my heteronormative-ass marriage and embrace my uncool mom energy.

People also assume that because I'm trans I undoubtedly agree with every "leftist" position and talking point, which is very much not true.

Lots of stunning revelations in this interview with the author of Time to Think: The Inside Story of the Collapse of the Tavistock's Gender Service for Children about the medical malpractice at that London clinic.


The author is an investigative journalist at the BBC, impressively impartial and I would say rather politically correct. Very much treading on eggshells around the language to let the facts she uncovered speak for themselves all the better. Overall, she shows impeccable professional ethics and each time when there isn't enough data to support a conclusion she says so explicitly. But part of the malpractice scandal is precisely the lack of data from the clinic.

Timecode for "the part of the story that people in big metropolitan cities are finding the hardest to accept", namely the undercurrent of homophobia, esp as internalized by children: https://youtu.be/X2Ix_-1LkdY?si=o2gobRhE4bnTDNOb&t=3197  "I was a lesbian... and all that was ignored"

Wish that I had the time to read the book right now, since I'm quite taken by the issue. Except I'll be very busy in the coming week and then it's off to Nice, where I want to be rereading something like Nietzsche or Baudelaire instead of disturbing facts about puberty blockers and medical conferences sponsored by the firms producing them.

What I've Learned About Women and Men in Sports (https://genspect.org/martina-navratilova-five-years-later/)

A feminist perspective on MTF transgenderism: 

QuoteGender ideology represents the literal embodiment of male entitlement to women, and the sexualized power hierarchy that feminists once described as gender, or sex role stereotypes. This eroticization of power and powerlessness has the effect of naturalizing women's subordinate role in society. When men perform a parody of femininity and claim this farce is what women truly are, they are fundamentally deconstructing women's humanity, reducing half the human population to a demeaning and objectified fantasy; but crucially, they are redirecting women back to the restrictive roles that afforded them power over the female sex in the first place.

The belief that womanhood can be attained through a combination of desire reframed as devout suffering, alongside the purchasing of products — clothing, cosmetics, surgeries — is, at its core, a belief that women are commodities which men are entitled to possess. It is a belief system that attempts to define women as fetish objects and reduces women to the Freudian castrated male.

https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

Anyone who uses the phrase "gender ideology" unironically should be mocked relentlessly for the rest of their life.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 02, 2023, 12:02 AMA feminist perspective on MTF transgenderism: 

https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

One of the reasons I have been reluctant to join in these discussions before is I don't really know what's going on.

Like this citation: "When men perform a parody of femininity and claim this farce is what women truly are."

Is that a good description of what's happening?

I would think a trans woman and a bio female are different. If they weren't, there wouldn't be any need for hormone treatment.

If they are merely asking to be treated the same, the above citation wouldn't be a good fit.

I assume both of those things are probably happening at once. Or does the "trans movement" have a unified goal and it is to erase any distinction between gender identity and biology?

Yeah that article assumes the absolute worst of trans women, as if anything it talks about applies to all of us.

As far as the "parody of femininity" line goes, the author does realize that not every trans woman is Dylan Mulvaney, right? Most of us are not even close to exaggerated performative feminine stereotypes, and while I don't doubt that there are some people who that applies to, it's so ironic that the author claims we're dehumanizing and stereotyping women because that's exactly what the author is doing to us. Surely everything we do is part of some sinister plot to debase and demean women and force them into gender roles, this makes complete sense and is in no way projecting.

Speaking for myself, I dress hyperfeminine now, but for the first 17-18 years of being out as trans I dressed like a pretty androgynous punk, most of what I wore was band t-shirts and skinny jeans and the occasional *gasp* skirt. Imagine spewing such utter vitriol at people who committed the heinous unforgivable crime of... wearing certain articles of clothing and referring to themselves with different pronouns. The unmitigated gall of us trans women, right?

Does this author have the same problem with drag queens? They perform exaggerated hyperfemininity and cartoon stereotypes of womanliness way more than any trans women. Just interested to know their take on that.

At the end of the day they can read whatever they want into the trans experience, but this is the opposite of unbiased and logical. Do I think there are no trans women who this applies to? Of course not, but even then, is this really a productive argument? What does the author want to do to solve this supposed pressing issue? Again, they're perfectly entitled to their reductive and presumptuous opinions on us, but I think there's a point where I just have to say "I'm sorry you feel that way" and live my own life alongside the many supportive cis friends in my life who love and embrace me as I am. Can't please everyone after all.

The link is not to an article. It's to a compilation, over 30 minutes long, of videos uploaded by MTFs to various social media platforms. I would strongly recommend to watch it all the way through even if it's challenging and at certain points you want to look away.

The sparse voiceover commentary comes mostly from an article by Geneviève Gluck. The bit I quoted appears in the video at some point.

Quote from: Queen Boo on Sep 02, 2023, 03:50 AMAnyone who uses the phrase "gender ideology" unironically should be mocked relentlessly for the rest of their life.

When it was coined by radical feminists in the 1970s, "gender" was a non dogmatic descriptive tool to help us better understand how the differences between the sexes play out in a specific society, especially how men oppress women.

Nowadays it's an ideology in the most basic and trivial sense of that word: a denial of observable reality in the service of an agenda. It's a mantra that works in the same way as THE ultimate ideological statement:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female"

Quote from: jadis on Sep 02, 2023, 03:24 PMNowadays it's an ideology in the most basic and trivial sense of that word: a denial of observable reality in the service of an agenda.

What reality are trans people denying? Nobody is trying to say "I've changed my birth sex" or "I have no differences that distinguish me from a cis person of whatever sex".

It's still a descriptive tool. And trans people existed in the 70s, there's no "nowadays" about what you're describing.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 02, 2023, 03:24 PMWhen it was coined by radical feminists in the 1970s, "gender" was a non dogmatic descriptive tool to help us better understand how the differences between the sexes play out in a specific society, especially how men oppress women.

Nowadays it's an ideology in the most basic and trivial sense of that word: a denial of observable reality in the service of an agenda. It's a mantra that works in the same way as THE ultimate ideological statement:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female"

Interesting, have you ever considered getting a life?

I don't know if Cole has been brought up before in this discussion but after I read her story I just knew that Republicans would reach out to her to use her as an example to spearhead their bills to ban gender surgery in teens because of this one case.

Chloe Cole is just being used as a pawn and is definitely an outlier imo.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/i-was-told-transitioning-would-save-me-it-destroyed-my-life/ar-AA1fQgao?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b4ac3e3453204b078d7e6141170885f9&ei=32

Quote from: DJChameleon on Sep 03, 2023, 06:36 PMI don't know if Cole has been brought up before in this discussion but after I read her story I just knew that Republicans would reach out to her to use her as an example to spearhead their bills to ban gender surgery in teens because of this one case.

Chloe Cole is just being used as a pawn and is definitely an outlier imo.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/i-was-told-transitioning-would-save-me-it-destroyed-my-life/ar-AA1fQgao?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b4ac3e3453204b078d7e6141170885f9&ei=32

She says she's never met anyone who transitioned as a child who is not in a horrible situation. What a lame appeal to authority, like girl you're 19. Sit down.

But for real, I actually don't think minors should undergo surgery in most cases. It very rarely even happens now, at least bottom surgery. Not familiar with top surgery for trans men though. But I get what you mean, they want to ban all gender affirming care and detransitioners who support that, even if they mean well, are helping the wrong guys.

To the republicans the 99 percent of successful happy trans people are invalidated by the sliver of detransitioners. Not that they even believe that happy trans people should even exist, to them we're all just perverted groomers.

I can't think of any exceptions to the rule of no mascetomies for 15 year olds. Other than like breast cancer or something serious like that.  Sounds to me like this person did get fucked and has a legit grievance. 

Quote from: Jwb on Sep 04, 2023, 02:42 AMI can't think of any exceptions to the rule of no mascetomies for 15 year olds. Other than like breast cancer or something serious like that.  Sounds to me like this person did get fucked and has a legit grievance. 

I'm inclined to agree, but I think that's a problem with her specific doctors and not the entire idea of trans healthcare for kids as a whole. I'm skeptical that there is some widespread phenomenon of manipulative doctors pushing kids into medically transitioning, which is the narrative she seems to be pushing.

Speaking for myself, and yes, this was many years ago, my parents would not let me even see a hormone doctor until I was 18, and after that I went through lots of psychological and medical evaluations before finally getting on hormones.

I think there has to be a middle ground between ignoring dysphoria and saying "tough shit, wait till you're 18" and "we need to get you on HRT now and and give you bottom surgery ASAP". But the right is disingenuously twisting the data in order to fearmonger, what else is new.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 04, 2023, 03:03 AMI think there has to be a middle ground between ignoring dysphoria and saying "tough shit, wait till you're 18" and "we need to get you on HRT now and and give you bottom surgery ASAP". But the right is disingenuously twisting the data in order to fearmonger, what else is new.

Agreed.

Completely ignoring the dysphoria that teens experience is how you end up with trans kids suicides sky rocketing. The right wing want to protect kids so much from surgery that they don't care if they un alive themselves from the psychological damage they are going through in the process.

Quote from: Jwb on Sep 04, 2023, 02:42 AMI can't think of any exceptions to the rule of no mascetomies for 15 year olds. Other than like breast cancer or something serious like that.  Sounds to me like this person did get fucked and has a legit grievance. 

Same with putting 12 year olds on the drug they use to chemically castrate sex offenders. There is a reason why the Tavistock Gender Identity Clinic was shut down in disgrace and faces a massive class action lawsuit (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/tavistock-gender-clinic-lawyers-latest-b2143006.html), one of the biggest in British history.

Quote"These children have suffered life-changing and, in some cases, irreversible effects of the treatment they received which has resulted in long-term physical and psychological consequences for them."

The reality behind the pink and fuzzy euphemism "gender-affirming care" is so fucking grim.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Sep 04, 2023, 01:35 PMAgreed.

Completely ignoring the dysphoria that teens experience is how you end up with trans kids suicides sky rocketing. The right wing want to protect kids so much from surgery that they don't care if they un alive themselves from the psychological damage they are going through in the process.

Well if it makes you feel any better, technology and science will definitely solve these problems in our lifetime.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Sep 03, 2023, 06:36 PMI don't know if Cole has been brought up before in this discussion but after I read her story I just knew that Republicans would reach out to her to use her as an example to spearhead their bills to ban gender surgery in teens because of this one case.

Chloe Cole is just being used as a pawn and is definitely an outlier imo.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/other/i-was-told-transitioning-would-save-me-it-destroyed-my-life/ar-AA1fQgao?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=b4ac3e3453204b078d7e6141170885f9&ei=32

This is just an anecdote but I've seen trans people on Twitter who claim to have known Chloe when she was still transitioning and that she was completely shallow and obsessed with attention and showed little to no empathy for others in the community, she would be completely insensitive and refer to herself as a "hermaphrodite"

She clearly has serious issues, and no transition obviously wasn't the answer for her, do the doctors hold some responsibility? Sure I guess, though I think even she admits she wasn't exactly honest with them in the first place.

I'd have more sympathy for her if instead of taking responsibility for her own bad decisions she didn't choose to wage war against the entire trans community and become a propaganda puppet for a fascist political party.

It's kinda rich how the party of "personal responsibility" is so eager to blame an entire community because this one person screwed up wouldn't you say?

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Sep 04, 2023, 04:16 PMWell if it makes you feel any better, technology and science will definitely solve these problems in our lifetime.

Technology is great. Nothing beats technology for solving a narrowly defined problem but the notion that X is a problem to be solved is a value judgment. And just like that we're back in the realm of conflicting meanings and desires rather than technocratic fixes. 

For instance, you appear to be granting that the problem to be solved is what DJChameleon says it is. I find that the way he poses the problem makes it a function of the US culture wars, which I see as extremely deleterious.   

Not to mention that transgenderism on the scale it exists today, especially the unprecedented epidemic among young girls (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/24/an-explosion-what-is-behind-the-rise-in-girls-questioning-their-gender-identity), is, if anything, an example of a problem created by technology and science. Don't feel comfortable in your body? We have just the high tech fix for that! 

Quote from: jadis on Sep 04, 2023, 07:53 PMTechnology is great. Nothing beats technology for solving a narrowly defined problem but the notion that X is a problem to be solved is a value judgment. And just like that we're back in the realm of conflicting meanings and desires rather than technocratic fixes.

For instance, you appear to be granting that the problem to be solved is what DJChameleon says it is. I find that the way he poses the problem makes it a function of the US culture wars, which I see as extremely deleterious.   

Not to mention that transgenderism on the scale it exists today, especially the unprecedented epidemic among young girls (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/24/an-explosion-what-is-behind-the-rise-in-girls-questioning-their-gender-identity), is, if anything, an example of a problem created by technology and science. Don't feel comfortable in your body? We have just the high tech fix for that! 

He's just pro science and technology for everything if you haven't noticed by now.

The whole reverse aging topic that came up in the past.

Quote from: Queen Boo on Sep 04, 2023, 06:26 PMThis is just an anecdote but I've seen trans people on Twitter who claim to have known Chloe when she was still transitioning and that she was completely shallow and obsessed with attention and showed little to no empathy for others in the community, she would be completely insensitive and refer to herself as a "hermaphrodite"

She clearly has serious issues, and no transition obviously wasn't the answer for her, do the doctors hold some responsibility? Sure I guess, though I think even she admits she wasn't exactly honest with them in the first place.

I'd have more sympathy for her if instead of taking responsibility for her own bad decisions she didn't choose to wage war against the entire trans community and become a propaganda puppet for a fascist political party.

It's kinda rich how the party of "personal responsibility" is so eager to blame an entire community because this one person screwed up wouldn't you say?

it's kind of ironic how some trans people have to basically throw detransitioners under the bus because their identity somehow makes your uncomfortable with your own identity. 

Like you can chastise them for getting used by the right but the left has no sympathy for them anyway because it's like every detransitioner is some sort of blemish on the trans movement. 

Quote from: Jwb on Sep 04, 2023, 08:57 PMit's kind of ironic how some trans people have to basically throw detransitioners under the bus because their identity somehow makes your uncomfortable with your own identity. 

Like you can chastise them for getting used by the right but the left has no sympathy for them anyway because it's like every detransitioner is some sort of blemish on the trans movement. 

That's the only thing I'm chastising them for. I have nothing but sympathy and support for detransitioners who don't try to use their experience to delegitimize trans people.

You can say that but the reason they get used by the right is because the left has absolutely no use for their story.

Quote from: Jwb on Sep 04, 2023, 09:15 PMYou can say that but the reason they get used by the right is because the left has absolutely no use for their story.

I dunno, i personally don't see many "left" people saying anything bad about detransitioners other than that they are doing a shitty thing by allying with the right against trans rights. Maybe I'm not terminally online enough, the only social media I use where that would come up is various trans discords, so maybe on other sites? I dunno I've just not really seen what you're talking about.

I didn't say they were going around saying bad things about detransitioners.  I said the left has no use for their story. It doesn't fit their narrative.  So they were never going to try to highlight anything that can be perceived as a negative externality of the current gender care.  Which detransitioners inherently are. 

These are not just online issues,

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 04, 2023, 09:22 PMI dunno, i personally don't see many "left" people saying anything bad about detransitioners other than that they are doing a shitty thing by allying with the right against trans rights. Maybe I'm not terminally online enough, the only social media I use where that would come up is various trans discords, so maybe on other sites? I dunno I've just not really seen what you're talking about.

These are definitely things I see examples of irl in various queer communities in the SF Bay Area both micro- and macro-cosmically. It's certainly not a uniquely online issue.

Quote from: Jwb on Sep 04, 2023, 09:26 PMI didn't say they were going around saying bad things about detransitioners.  I said the left has no use for their story. It doesn't fit their narrative.  So they were never going to try to highlight anything that can be perceived as a negative externality of the current gender care.  Which detransitioners inherently are. 

Well I dunno then, I guess I'm not "the left" because if someone is struggling with gender issues, the last thing I'm thinking of with regards to having sympathy for them is "does this person fit our narrative". That's not how I think about other people. You can detransition and have a conversation about these issues without making it an "us vs. them" thing.

I will happily have a conversation about this with any detransitioner, but when the right wing and the prospect of banning trans healthcare get involved, it's not a matter of "not valuing the detransitioners' story" anymore.

Quote from: Jwb on Sep 04, 2023, 09:26 PMI didn't say they were going around saying bad things about detransitioners.  I said the left has no use for their story. It doesn't fit their narrative.  So they were never going to try to highlight anything that can be perceived as a negative externality of the current gender care.  Which detransitioners inherently are. 

Or you get excommunicated/ostracized from the same queer communities that purport to be radically inclusive.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Sep 04, 2023, 08:08 PMHe's just pro science and technology for everything if you haven't noticed by now.

The whole reverse aging topic that came up in the past.

And I made some great points on those posts too.  If I had a Greatest Hits album I'd include them.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Sep 04, 2023, 09:55 PMAnd I made some great points on those posts too.  If I had a Greatest Hits album I'd include them.

I was just stating an obvious fact. I love science and technology in general. Certain things just aren't at that point yet but I know soon.

I like how it's "the 99 percent of successful happy trans people" vs "a sliver of detransitioners"... One of the problems with that British gender clinic that got shut down was that they struggled with gathering data for various reasons. That was the case in the most centralized health service in the developed world. Following a comprehensive inquiry, it emerged that the proportion of those who were unhappy was not exactly a sliver.

I wonder whether the private clinics in the US do a better or worse job at collecting and reporting data... 

Welp, it's been nice knowing you all.

https://www.them.us/story/kosa-senator-blackburn-censor-trans-content (https://www.them.us/story/kosa-senator-blackburn-censor-trans-content)

Biden supporta that bill too.  #mindblown

If you go to the journalist's byline, the article they wrote after this one is just complaining about Shane Gillis having a hit Netflix special (https://www.them.us/story/shane-gillis-netflix-comedy-special-lgbtq-comedians-to-watch-instead) lol

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 08, 2023, 06:43 PMWelp, it's been nice knowing you all.

https://www.them.us/story/kosa-senator-blackburn-censor-trans-content (https://www.them.us/story/kosa-senator-blackburn-censor-trans-content)

Yikes. I got curious about the bill and read the Wikipedia article on it. At first the goal seems innocent enough, to protect children from harm in social media.

Quote from: WikipediaSenator Blackburn, co-author of the bill, has argued that some education about racism and the civil rights movement overlaps with critical race theory, which she labels a "dangerous ideology" that can inflict "mental and emotional damage" upon children.[14] She has also explicitly stated that the bill will be used to censor content involving the transgender community.[15] EFF columnist Jason Kelly states that in the framework provided by the bill, that KOSA could be used to censor education about racism in schools since it could be claimed that it impacts mental health.[16]

The word harm is not very specific.

I'd wanna use it to protect children against things like religious indoctrination. These guys thinks of critical race theory and transgender content.

Shouldn't legislation be more concise? It does make it look like another unfortunate strategic move in the cultural war you got going on.

This is such a Portland story. If anyone thinks the homeless guys in NYC are intimidating they should spend a week in Portland among the methheads, the casual violence in on a completely another level. 

Portland trans activist 'destroyed and defecated inside teen girl's car over 'transphobia' claims: Car towed away because it was considered a 'biohazard' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12470501/Portland-trans-activist-destroyed-defecated-inside-teen-girls-car-transphobia-claims-Car-towed-away-considered-biohazard.html)


Also Vivien Shemansky is a hall of fame name for a trans cutie

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/09/09/04/74964577-12470501-Footage_captured_the_moment_Shamansky_was_hauled_away_by_police_-a-23_1694230608933.jpg)

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2023/09/09/04/74966211-12470501-Shemansky_has_documented_her_struggles_with_gender_dysphoria_on_-a-22_1694230608925.jpg)

You know, @jadis. A lot of people do fucked up shit. There's drugged up violence, poo shenanigans and murder happening in every major US city every day. Elsewhere too.

But if it just so happens the perpetrator is trans or described in any such way, you're sure to take notice because I get the impression you're googling for it every day. Nevermind that atrocities, often worse, are committed by all sorts of people, most of them not trans.

I find it offensive. I mean what if you regularly reported on crime, but only if it was specifically perpetrated by someone described as black. Maybe you'd think that was a little off?

Your repeated reporting on "trans crimes" is off and, I'd think, hurtful to some of our members.

QuoteI'd wanna use it to protect children against things like religious indoctrination. These guys thinks of critical race theory and transgender content.

I haven't read the specific legislation so can't comment on it.

I am not a fan of religious indoctrination. But at least they don't teach you that if you don't like playing with dolls as a girl and prefer blue to pink you were "born in the wrong body" (if this isn't cult-like indoctrination then I don't know what is) and should be put on the drug used chemically castrate pedophiles, then take cross sex hormones and eventually undergo double mastectomy and have your uterus cut out and get a barely functional sausage made from your thigh meet. 

I don't google for it lol, I just follow a few Twitter accounts that deliver the good shit.

The race analogy is always there implicitly when someone is talking about a "marginalized group" in the American context (and increasingly we're all Americans these days). And it makes zero sense. No one's rights got trampled by the political demands of the civil rights movement. With transgenderism, it's a different story. I believe it's important to highlight who are some of the people that are getting access to women-only spaces.

You're welcome to ban me. Your call.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 10:37 AMI don't google for it lol, I just follow a few Twitter accounts that deliver the good shit.

The race analogy is always there implicitly when someone is talking about a "marginalized group" in the American context (and increasingly we're all Americans these days). And it makes zero sense. No one's rights got trampled by the political demands of the civil rights movement. With transgenderism, it's a different story. I believe it's important to highlight who are some of the people that are getting access to women-only spaces.

You're welcome to ban me. Your call.

No one's rights are being trampled by trans people having the right to exist and transition and live their lives. Civil rights is not a perfect analogy, but it's interesting that you bring it up as I'd think some of the people who benefited from racial segregation thought their rights were being trampled by black people having access to what were once whites-only spaces.

It's very curious to me that you're so paranoid about trans people attacking cis women. It reminds me of Trump-esque "ban Muslims from entering the country because some of them could be terrorists" rhetoric.

I feel very strongly about everyone's right to live their lives as they choose. That's the best thing about the modern world. But, and we've been through this a thousand times, political claims that touch upon all of society is a different matter.

Forget attacking. The two most widespread sex crimes, by a huge margin, are exhibitionism and voyeurism. Men's very presence in single sex spaces for women is always a violation. 

Though the violation I'm way more paranoid about is the medicalization of mostly gay, often autistic children because they fail to conform to the most retarded and arbitrary gender norms. The way these kids are lied to when they're told that they can become members of the opposite sex upon growing up (impossible, not a thing) is beyond medical malpractice.   

If I had a penny each time a dense and ignorant American compared something to Trump I'd be a very rich man.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 10:37 AMI don't google for it lol, I just follow a few Twitter accounts that deliver the good shit.

The race analogy is always there implicitly when someone is talking about a "marginalized group" in the American context (and increasingly we're all Americans these days). And it makes zero sense. No one's rights got trampled by the political demands of the civil rights movement. With transgenderism, it's a different story. I believe it's important to highlight who are some of the people that are getting access to women-only spaces.

You're welcome to ban me. Your call.

It's so bizarre. You already know there are crazy, awful people of every sort. If you let anyone in anywhere, you'll also let some bad ones in. It ALSO means there's bad people already there, like there are crazy, pooping, dick fondling, meth headed cis women in women spaces too.

And getting hung up on this, aren't you also just swallowing the bait? There are so many actually important issues for society, like racism, drug use, gun violence, conspiracy theory, religion. If anything, republicans harping on trans issues and blowing them up seems like, besides being awful, like a way to shift focus away from issues that are much more important and where they're not helping.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 11:46 AMThough the violation I'm way more paranoid about is the medicalization of mostly gay, often autistic children because they fail to conform to the most retarded and arbitrary gender norms. The way these kids are lied to when they're told that they can become members of the opposite sex upon growing up (impossible, not a thing) is beyond medical malpractice. 

You're also conveniently ignoring the fact that they may experience very real gender dysphoria which may push them towards a poorer quality of life, substance abuse and suicide. In other words, you seem completely one sided. You want to protect people or children? Only as long as they're not trans as you haven't shown a shred of concern or empathy for any trans people.

So are you discussing from a place of wanting to help or from a place of judgment?

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 11:46 AMI feel very strongly about everyone's right to live their lives as they choose. That's the best thing about the modern world. But, and we've been through this a thousand times, political claims that touch upon all of society is a different matter.

Forget attacking. The two most widespread sex crimes, by a huge margin, are exhibitionism and voyeurism. Men's very presence in single sex spaces for women is always a violation. 

Though the violation I'm way more paranoid about is the medicalization of mostly gay, often autistic children because they fail to conform to the most retarded and arbitrary gender norms. The way these kids are lied to when they're told that they can become members of the opposite sex upon growing up (impossible, not a thing) is beyond medical malpractice. 

If I had a penny each time a dense and ignorant American compared something to Trump I'd be a very rich man.

Political claims like "women should have the right to vote" and "gay people should have the right to marry who they want"? Those do impact society and there was and is plenty of opposition to them.

Changing your gender is not impossible just because you think it is. We're not transitioning to impress you.

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 09, 2023, 12:00 PMYou're also conveniently ignoring the fact that they may experience very real gender dysphoria which may push them towards a poorer quality of life, substance abuse and suicide. In other words, you seem completely one sided. You want to protect people or children? Only as long as they're not trans as you haven't shown a shred of concern or empathy for any trans people.

So are you discussing from a place of wanting to help or from a place of judgment?

I get this vibe too. It seems kind of telling that he considers Twitter feeds of anti-trans articles to be "delivering the good shit", like he's happy about reading stories of trans people suffering.

And I know he's going to come back and say "those kids aren't really trans, they were transed by Big Pharma indoctrinating them!!!" like he's the grand authority and arbiter of who kids are.

Edit: Maybe it would be a better idea to move this discussion to the "cis male" thread lol.

I agree with Guybrush too. @jadis as I've said before I share some of your concerns and I think they're valid, it's just that you discuss them in a way that's sometimes disrespectful, one-sided, and generalising. For instance, you can be worried about the importance assigned to gender and its implications for some people (like gender nonconforming autistic kids) without being hostile to trans people or dismissing ways to deal with gender dysphoria that work for some people. You can also be concerned with the safety of cis women without the same hostility, and without dismissing the safety of trans women in a disproportionate way. It frustrates me because I do think these kind of discussions are important and should happen, but it's no good if it's not constructive

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 09, 2023, 12:00 PMYou're also conveniently ignoring the fact that they may experience very real gender dysphoria which may push them towards a poorer quality of life, substance abuse and suicide. In other words, you seem completely one sided. You want to protect people or children? Only as long as they're not trans as you haven't shown a shred of concern or empathy for any trans people.

So are you discussing from a place of wanting to help or from a place of judgment?

You have to be a monster to not feel concern and sympathy for kids suffering of gender incongruence, which usually comes with a host of other mental health conditions and frequently difficult situations in life. They should be given supportive and empathetic counseling, their parents should be taught how not pile on the pressure on them but rather make them feel okay with who they are. I've heard of a mother who made an enormous difference in her life's daughter by simply telling her "come honey, we're gonna buy you a whole new wardrobe of clothes that will make you feel good about your body."

Studies conducted by clinics including the Tavistock in London have shown that the vast majority of these kids will grow up to be gay and lesbians adults for whom those feelings are a distant memory. Until, that is, the clinics decided that the "affirming" approach is the right one (where else in medicine does the patient get to dictate the doctor what their condition is all about?). Now these kids are defined as "trans" and put on the path to medicalization: chemical castration, cross-sex hormones and surgical intervention.

The path of understanding, empathy and self-acceptance is being blocked by solutions that profit the pharma industry and that lend continuing relevancy to certain NGOs that otherwise would've become obsolete after the victories of the gay rights movement. 

You only seem to think in the greatest of extremes, Jadis.

"Making kids feel okay with who they are" is a great ideal! But you think being trans is not "who they are", you are speaking for them and impressing your values on them. I think it's way more common for parents to enforce being cis on their kids. How is that any better than your idea that doctors are enforcing them on the path to identifying as trans?

For the record, I do not support gender surgery for minors, or even hormones necessarily. But I think once that kid is 18 they can live their life and do what makes them comfortable. You have no right to come in and say to an adult "you're not really trans, you were brainwashed by Big Pharma as a kid!!!"

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 12:23 PMYou have to be a monster to not feel concern and sympathy for kids suffering of gender incongruence, which usually comes with a host of other mental health conditions and frequently difficult situations in life. They should be given supportive and empathetic counseling, their parents should be taught how not pile on the pressure on them but rather make them feel okay with who they are. I've heard of a mother who made an enormous difference in her life's daughter by simply telling her "come honey, we're gonna buy you a whole new wardrobe of clothes that will make you feel good about your body."

Studies conducted by clinics including the Tavistock in London have shown that the vast majority of these kids will grow up to be gay and lesbians adults for whom those feelings are a distant memory. Until, that is, the clinics decided that the "affirming" approach is the right one (where else in medicine does the patient get to dictate the doctor what their condition is all about?). Now these kids are defined as "trans" and put on the path to medicalization: chemical castration, cross-sex hormones and surgical intervention.

The path of understanding, empathy and self-acceptance is being blocked by solutions that profit the pharma industry and that lend continuing relevancy to certain NGOs that otherwise would've become obsolete after the victories of the gay rights movement. 

@jadis You know, you explain what the world is like, but I find it a little difficult to believe at face value.

You're an academic and an intelligent guy. Surely, you must be aware that the twitter accounts that are feeding you information are not actually giving you a nuanced view of what goes on in the real world. Instead, they're cherry picking. They ignore happy trans stories, instead only serving you "good shit" about transpeople groping prison guards and pooping in cars. When those cherry picked bits of information come to inform your perception of the whole world, you're likely no longer reliable when speaking about the big picture.

It's a well known logical fallacy. Are you protecting yourself from making this mistake?

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 09, 2023, 12:04 PMPolitical claims like "women should have the right to vote" and "gay people should have the right to marry who they want"? Those do impact society and there was and is plenty of opposition to them.

Changing your gender is not impossible just because you think it is. We're not transitioning to impress you.

The facile cliché that the trans thing is a civil rights issue on par with women's rights and gay rights is just that.

Being a woman is the biological reality of 51 percent of the population. Being gay or lesbian are sexual orientations. Being trans is an identity. There's a world of difference.

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 09, 2023, 12:42 PM@jadis You know, you explain what the world is like, but I find it a little difficult to believe at face value.

You're an academic and an intelligent guy. Surely, you must be aware that the twitter accounts that are feeding you information are not actually giving you a nuanced view of what goes on in the real world. Instead, they're cherry picking. They ignore happy trans stories, instead only serving you "good shit" about transpeople groping prison guards and pooping in cars. When those cherry picked bits of information come to inform your perception of the whole world, you're likely no longer reliable when speaking about the big picture.

It's a well known logical fallacy. Are you protecting yourself from making this mistake?

Well-meaning and not particularly knowledgeable and thus tacitly assuming others know even less: the usual Tore alright.

I spent years on north American campuses, where the trans issue is all the rage and have had trans students, colleagues and even a close friend. I know older trans people in Montreal, who transitioned decades before the current craze (and are typically very critical of it). Not least, I actually read academic gender theory, both because it can be fascinating in its own right and a significant proportion of its followers adopt Foucauldian language or are in some kind of dialogue with Foucault.

I do enjoy spicy stories about trans cuties wilding out and thus I follow a couple of Twitter accounts that aggregate both social media posts by actual trans people and the odd tabloid story, but it doesn't mean I think all trans people are anything like those monsters. I'm sure most are as inoffensive as Mrs. Waffles. That doesn't change the larger point that men should not be in single-sex spaces designated for women. 

You're accepting activist slogans without giving them a second thought. When we use the same word to designate the motivations for transitioning of these charmers (https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b) (please watch this video till the end. It doesn't represent all trans people, just a very distinct subset) and of a 13 year old girl uncomfortable with her body... you should start wondering whether we need to become more critical of the language instead of bundling a range of different things under the umbrella of "dysphoria." 

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 01:53 PMThe facile cliché that the trans thing is a civil rights issue on par with women's rights and gay rights is just that.

Being a woman is the biological reality of 51 percent of the population. Being gay or lesbian are sexual orientations. Being trans is an identity. There's a world of difference.

Is the brain not considered part of biology? And please explain to me how gay rights are a legitimate cause but trans rights are not.

I'd also like to let everyone know that the site Jadis linked is a "free speech" video hosting site that is a popular destination for far right videos that would be banned on the real Youtube for hate speech. So keep in mind exactly where the video's spin is coming from.

And you do realize that your rhetoric hurts all trans people, right? Not just the "monsters"? I'm glad you think I am "inoffensive" but whether it is your intention or not, you are parroting the same talking points that are leading to politicians and even individual clinics (such as mine) attempting to ban gender-affirming care, and not just for minors.

I'm also not at all sure that there is a world of difference between sexual orientation and gender. Take for instance the fact that gender, as distinct from sex, plays a large role in the sexual orientation of many people. I haven't thought about this properly yet so I may have more to say about it later

QuoteI do enjoy spicy stories about trans cuties wilding out and thus I follow a couple of Twitter accounts that aggregate both social media posts by actual trans people and the odd tabloid story, but it doesn't mean I think all trans people are anything like those monsters. I'm sure most are as inoffensive as Mrs. Waffles. That doesn't change the larger point that men should not be in single-sex spaces designated for women. 

So if your point is "I don't hate trans people, I hate predators", I'm gonna blow your mind here, so do I. And so does every trans person worth listening to. There are bad minorities who do awful things and even reinforce negative stereotypes. That being true is not grounds for legal discrimination against us or denial of our healthcare, and it does not make the existence of trans people less legitimate.

And as for enjoying stories like that, maybe you should ask yourself why you enjoy reading about awful trans people so much. If you mean to come off like you respect us on a baseline human level, you're not doing a very good job. It makes me feel very weird to know that you get a kick out of affirming your bias against trans people like that.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 09, 2023, 02:14 PMIs the brain not considered part of biology? And please explain to me how gay rights are a legitimate cause but trans rights are not.

I'd also like to let everyone know that the site Jadis linked is a "free speech" video hosting site that is a popular destination for far right videos that would be banned on the real Youtube for hate speech. So keep in mind exactly where the video's spin is coming from.

And you do realize that your rhetoric hurts all trans people, right? Not just the "monsters"? I'm glad you think I am "inoffensive" but whether it is your intention or not, you are parroting the same talking points that are leading to politicians and even individual clinics (such as mine) attempting to ban gender-affirming care, and not just for minors.

Gladly. Gay rights is a justifiably popular cause, because it's really about equal rights. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to the claim that gay marriage should be legal it means nothing. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to Lia Thomas's desire to participate in women's swimming races or to the demand that a female beautician do a Brazilian on someone's cock and balls, it is very clear what are the rights being violated.

You can add as many letter and symbols to the LGB as you please, it will never make your cause anything like the gay rights movement. 

But all there is in that video is tiktoks etc of actual trans people. The 95% of the speech is done by trans people themselves. The little voiceover that accompanies it is taken mostly from one feminist essay that is not "hateful."

What hurts trans people is the political claims of trans activists. Lia Thomas hurts trans people.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 02:57 PMGladly. Gay rights is a justifiably popular cause, because it's really about equal rights. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to the claim that gay marriage should be legal it means nothing. When you say "but other people have rights" in response to Lia Thomas's desire to participate in women's swimming races or to the demand that a female beautician do a Brazilian on someone's cock and balls, it is very clear what are the rights being violated. 

Is it impossible to treat specific cases and issues with nuance instead of going to the extreme to debase trans people, misgender them and make grand sweeping statements about their group?

I'm aware of what the video is, I skimmed through it a bit. And if the voiceover is this,

QuoteGender ideology represents the literal embodiment of male entitlement to women, and the sexualized power hierarchy that feminists once described as gender, or sex role stereotypes. This eroticization of power and powerlessness has the effect of naturalizing women's subordinate role in society. When men perform a parody of femininity and claim this farce is what women truly are, they are fundamentally deconstructing women's humanity, reducing half the human population to a demeaning and objectified fantasy; but crucially, they are redirecting women back to the restrictive roles that afforded them power over the female sex in the first place.

The belief that womanhood can be attained through a combination of desire reframed as devout suffering, alongside the purchasing of products — clothing, cosmetics, surgeries — is, at its core, a belief that women are commodities which men are entitled to possess. It is a belief system that attempts to define women as fetish objects and reduces women to the Freudian castrated male.

Then yes, it is hella hateful. Painting a minority as being wicked by default and insinuating their identity is illegitimate, and in this case an affront to human decency even, is actually quite hateful.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 10:13 AMBut at least they don't teach you that if you don't like playing with dolls as a girl and prefer blue to pink you were "born in the wrong body" (if this isn't cult-like indoctrination then I don't know what is) and should be put on the drug used chemically castrate pedophiles, then take cross sex hormones and eventually undergo double mastectomy and have your uterus cut out and get a barely functional sausage made from your thigh meet. 

Didn't catch this. I'm sure it's a real thing. Probably happens all the time.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 09, 2023, 02:50 PMSo if your point is "I don't hate trans people, I hate predators", I'm gonna blow your mind here, so do I. And so does every trans person worth listening to. There are bad minorities who do awful things and even reinforce negative stereotypes. That being true is not grounds for legal discrimination against us or denial of our healthcare, and it does not make the existence of trans people less legitimate.

And as for enjoying stories like that, maybe you should ask yourself why you enjoy reading about awful trans people so much. If you mean to come off like you respect us on a baseline human level, you're not doing a very good job. It makes me feel very weird to know that you get a kick out of affirming your bias against trans people like that.

I don't think the majority of trans people I regard as detestable are necessarily predators. What they are is a group of entitled and aggressive men who have no business in single sex spaces for women but who really, really want to access them. The vast majority of sex crimes are crimes of opportunity, which is why we should minimize those. Including the opportunities for voyeurism and exhibitionism. 

Respect is earned. But I'll do a much better job of showing it when the conversation regarding political claims becomes tethered to reality.

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 09, 2023, 03:13 PMDidn't catch this. I'm sure it's a real thing. Probably happens all the time.

Literally happens all the time in places like Canada and Cali. Not in the Norwegian village where you live though.

The most shocking thing about the current craze is the rise in FtM among young girls. It's absolutely unprecedented. Until the last decade and a half the whole trans phenomenon was restricted to middle aged fetishists and a sliver of young boys. Now it's spread like wildfire among young girls.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 03:15 PMRespect is earned. But I'll do a much better job of showing it when the conversation regarding political claim becomes tethered to reality.

no, there is a baseline of respect that is the default until forfeited and does not need to be earned. And with the way you're talking you sometimes let go of that respect for trans people categorically, which is unfair

Quote from: Marie Monday on Sep 09, 2023, 03:25 PMno, there is a baseline of respect that is the default until forfeited and does not need to be earned. And with the way you're talking you sometimes forfeit that respect for trans people categorically, which is unfair

[I'll preface the following by saying that it refers to MtFs, not the girl thing] 

IMO it works like that IRL, not so much online where we lead with our opinions rather than our embodied presence.

The thing with vocal trans activists is that they don't exactly give you a lot of space to afford them that baseline of respect. When you're leading with political claims it becomes a different matter. 

Above all, respect implies a degree of recognition, which is key. What we all want deep down is recognition by other people. When I desire someone what I need is to receive from that person the recognition of myself as desired... or if you do extreme sports or whatever you want a recognition from other people that you're a badass. What many trans people want is the recognition of themselves as members of their chosen gender. Which is as human a desire as any other. But human desires drive political claims and political claims fuel conflicts, resolving which is a matter of strategy.

Speaking for myself (and IMO this should be a broad-based position), I will gladly respect the hell out of any André the Giant lookalike's self-ID as a teenage thot once the two non-negotiables (women-only spaces and the mass medicalization of gender non-conforming children) are off the table.

I know all that but that's not quite what you're doing. The lack of respect extends further, towards people who don't deserve it

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 04:29 PMSpeaking for myself (and IMO this should be a broad-based position), I will gladly respect the hell out of any André the Giant lookalike's self-ID as a teenage thot once the two non-negotiables (women-only spaces and the mass medicalization of gender non-conforming children) are off the table.

I get that. But your constant rude mocking jabs at trans women like this one give me the impression that there is something deeper to your attitude toward us. Comments like this and plenty of other stuff you've said are just disrespectful in general, not to mention the multiple times you have directly insulted me to my face.

I want to take you at your word, but this behavior gives a more disingenuous impression.

Quote from: Marie Monday on Sep 09, 2023, 04:40 PMI know all that but that's not quite what you're doing. The lack of respect extends further, towards people who don't deserve it

Like who? People like the older trans geezers I mentioned, who have no pretensions of being women despite having undergone vaginoplasties (I think they did, not sure actually)? They don't mind catching a few strays. One of them at least, who I spoke to quite in depth years ago.  

Respect and recognition are precious commodities and will be dealt out conditionally (okay writing this made me laugh cause it makes me sound like a tough negotiator whereas IRL I'm a pussy who's extremely cautious as to my language for obvious reasons).

If you're a trans person who agrees that my position is tenable, I want you to make your voice heard against the maximalist demands of the activist wing so that they pipe the fuck down.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 09, 2023, 04:52 PMI get that. But your constant rude mocking jabs at trans women like this one give me the impression that there is something deeper to your attitude toward us. Comments like this and plenty of other stuff you've said are just disrespectful in general, not to mention the multiple times you have directly insulted me to my face.

I want to take you at your word, but this behavior gives a more disingenuous impression.

I wonder what deeply buried prejudice lies behind my remarks on a group of people a sizable proportion of which I designated a few replies ago as entitled creeps who are precisely one opportunity away from flashing or peeping... Like I said, recognition and respect in this situation should be conditional.

My more derogatory remarks to you were concerning you as a person. I form my opinion of people based on what they say and how they say it. I know trans people who are really interesting and knowledgeable and cool.

Whatever dude. There are creeps in all walks of life, yet you're fixated on trans people because you are prejudiced and you are rude and disrespectful to constantly misgender and mock the "entitled" people who more than likely are not as much of heinous sex pests as you think and are more often than not just trying to live their lives.

I'm sure you know a lot of interesting trans people who are super cool with knowing that your respect and decency toward trans people hinges on whether they've met your standards of being "the right kind of trans people" or not. Just because you know trans people who are as judgmental as you does not make your disrespectful behavior justified.

I would never misgender cis people or make snide comments about their cisness, even though there are some cis-dominated spaces that make me uncomfortable and a lot of the actions done in the name of cisness really cheese me off. You doing so to trans people does not make you a noble warrior crusading to protect cis people everywhere, it just makes you look pathetic to keep posting these transphobic articles and then trying to save face by pretending you care about trans people.

Like, do you treat every trans person this way? Like some AMAB person introduces themself as "she/her" and you're like "nuh uh, you have to prove to me that you're a legit trans woman and not a perverted man in a dress before I treat you with respect".

As always, you talk straight past me with braindead activist cliches.

Yes, I happen to focus on the creeps in one particular walk of life: those who want to access women's spaces and rewrite laws to be based on subjective self-ID rather than reality. They are free to live their lives in a way that doesn't impinge on others in ways that cannot be accommodated in a liberal democracy that prizes the participation of (biological) women in public life. I don't give a solitary shit what precise proportion of them are dangerous predators or flashers or voyeurs because none of them should be anywhere near single sex female spaces. Even the nice ones (anecdotally, the more menacing ones are almost always the straight guys/"trans lesbians", but in this discussion it doesn't matter).

For the thousandth time, I don't subscribe to a distinction re what trans people are "valid" or "real" or "legitimate" and which are not. I don't think in those categories, it's none of my business. But between a young gender nonconfirming girl brainwashed by Tiktok into cutting her breasts and ovaries and a bepenised middle aged accountant who wants to be affirmed in his identity of a cute hoe with hot tits, I know what my reaction to each is. 

I would love it if you talked more about how cisness makes you uncomfortable. Please do. I promise to play nice and ask only nonjudgmental questions if any or just to shut up.

It's pretty funny how you call my points "cliches" while yourself using the most tired, hackneyed stereotypes of trans people you can think of.

Also I did not say cisness makes me uncomfortable. I'm not going to answer your question anyway, I've had quite enough of your questions, non-judgmental or otherwise. I'm going to enjoy my ladies' luncheon with my gal pals and have an afternoon free of all this negativity. Sorry to disappoint you.

Quel dommage !

I've been too tied up to keep an eye on this the last few hours and still am, but let me be clear about this:

Any further discussion on this topic is going to be:

• According to the rules
• In line with our goals

That means no nastiness, no ad hominems. That means I expect rhetoric that ultimately promotes friendship and trust.

I will hold myself to this as well. Those who cannot are free to discuss something else.

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 09, 2023, 11:51 AMIt's so bizarre. You already know there are crazy, awful people of every sort. If you let anyone in anywhere, you'll also let some bad ones in. It ALSO means there's bad people already there, like there are crazy, pooping, dick fondling, meth headed cis women in women spaces too.

And getting hung up on this, aren't you also just swallowing the bait? There are so many actually important issues for society, like racism, drug use, gun violence, conspiracy theory, religion. If anything, republicans harping on trans issues and blowing them up seems like, besides being awful, like a way to shift focus away from issues that are much more important and where they're not helping.

Can we get some details on the dick fondling situation by cis women in women-only spaces?

I didn't have much time to post yesterday, but my feeling about the discussion is that it's stuck. A
I think it also may have become needlessly polarized.

Still, I'll write some of my thoughts in the hope of maybe bringing some nuance and hopefully center things a bit more.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 09, 2023, 07:20 PMCan we get some details on the dick fondling situation by cis women in women-only spaces?

It happens all the time. Just check out your pornhub premium account.

But joking aside, I thought it'd be interesting to see, so I googled just quickly.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/09/683711899/two-woman-charged-in-alleged-attack-on-trans-woman-in-north-carolina-bar

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/suspects-in-beating-of-transgender-woman-chrissy-lee-polis-could-face-hate-crime-charges/

It doesn't say explicitly dicks were fondled, though.

A Harvard study from 2019 concludes that risk to transgender teenagers of getting raped can be reduced by allowing them access to restrooms that match their gender identification:

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/trans-teens-bathroom-policies-sexual-assault-study/index.html

Hence, I get the impression that granting such access should reduce overall sexual assault, not increase it. I hope that would be in everyone's moral interest (to reduce harm/suffering to trans people). Despite the news stories shared, I don't think transpeople represent much of a threat in terms of sexual assault.

I'm not actually a fan of gendered bathrooms at all, preferring to just have bathrooms, but I'll admit that may not be feasible everywhere or in every society and doesn't necessarily make for a good argument here.

Anyways, I also have some scattered comments to the discussion that took place yesterday.

The first is that participants in this discussion, despite appearances, share a lot of common ground. Most have acknowledged some of the stuff brought up by Jadis and I haven't seen anyone saying kids should undergo chemical castrations or surgery asap. We generally seem to think a more careful approach is better.

Gender affirming care has been needlessly equated to medicalization and surgery.

From AAMC.org (https://www.aamc.org/news/what-gender-affirming-care-your-questions-answered):

Quote from: AAMCSurgery, including to reduce a person's Adam's Apple, or to align their chest or genitalia with their gender identity, is rarely provided to people under 18.

"The goal is not treatment, but to listen to the child and build understanding — to create an environment of safety in which emotions, questions, and concerns can be explored,"

Second, about the quote or idea that transpeople are males invading women only spaces, I've addressed it before. I can quickly reiterate my utilitarian point about how I believe it helps a lot more transpeople and helps keep them safe than it is a hindrance or threat to women. I think the quote ignores the obvious personal goal of people who transition; simply to express on the outside who they feel they are on the inside (not to attack women). It seems unfair to demonize them, even if there's some validity to the concerns.

About trans women competing against biological women and having unfair advantages, I also addressed this. To reiterate, I think sports should be free to define these things to ensure fairness and rewarding competition. Hence, I myself am open to excluding bio males from bio females' competition. I am also open to using other parameters than sex so that possibly more women can compete against men. I think my stance would possibly anger some people (?), but I'm good at compartmentalizing and don't care for sports 😄 And sometimes bio sex is important, like in medicine or forensics. Sports can be like that too, unless they can ensure a level playing field by other parameters (I'd like to see that).

All these things are points I believe I've made before, but then everyone else also seem to have reiterated theirs. It may be a sign this discussion is currently at an impasse.

Thank you for your levelheaded response! I agree that this discussion is at an impasse and I think at this point we might just have to agree to disagree between whatever you want to call the different sides of this debate.

I think we can hopefully all agree that there are a lot of trans people who are fine, ordinary citizens of earth who just want to live their lives. There are also wackjobs among the trans contingent, same as literally any other denomination of people. In my personal experience I know more trans women who are afraid of entering women's spaces than ones who would enter an establishment and demand their dick be fondled, but apparently Jadis has had the opposite experience, so I feel like it's boiling down to a "he said she said" kind of thing almost.

Anyone who physically attacks a trans person should be dealt with by the police. The salient point about single sex spaces is that of sexual threat: it's posed by men, to women and men. The protected class is women.

I can only reiterate my extremely low opinion of your well-intentioned "utilitarianism" that proposes "solutions" at the expense of 51 percent of the population.

"Puberty blockers" is for the most part lupron, which is the drug administered to violent sex offenders to chemically castrate them. It is also used to treat precocious puberty, where it is reported to have caused a range of side effects. For how they actually work for gender dysphoric teenagers, see case of the shuttered Tavistock clinic. Before 2014, when they adopted the "affirmative" approach and started administering it to confused gay and lesbian kids, the vast majority of them outgrew the dysphoric feelings they had and became gay and lesbian adults. With puberty blockers, transition became universal. You may want look into Sweden's decision to discontinue puberty blockers for gender dysphoric minors. 

Let's introduce a new idea:

The biggest taboo among the MTFs is the "autogynephilia" theory, which basically posits that for a sizable proportion of them it's a sexual fetish where one is turned on by the thought of oneself as a woman. Ray Blanchard's two types of transsexual are the homosexual and the autogynephilic heterosexuals. Autogynephilia is an identification with the desired sex which can become a desire to actually be the desired sex (why this concept has become controversial is explained by Blanchard himself here: https://quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/). Thus it is first and foremost a fetish or a paraphilia. One of its implications is that autogynephilic guys may well very closely imitate their idea of a women while at the same time displaying very typical heterosexual male behavior.

Again, it's a huge taboo in the trans community and they will brand it a "discredited" theory. I think it has its problems that are common to all of scientia sexualis, but empirically it has some truth. I dare anyone to watch this till the end and say there's nothing to it https://odysee.com/@Skirt_Go_Spinny:7/Wrong-Ans-Only-1:b

It's closely related to the centrality of porn to present-day transgenderism. Luckily, here we don't have to rely on taxonomies drawn by a sexologist but can turn to the first hand account by Andrea Long Chu, a writer I like a lot.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Egb-sHdWAAAFD2B.jpg) 

QuoteI think we can hopefully all agree that there are a lot of trans people who are fine, ordinary citizens of earth who just want to live their lives. There are also wackjobs among the trans contingent, same as literally any other denomination of people. In my personal experience I know more trans women who are afraid of entering women's spaces than ones who would enter an establishment and demand their dick be fondled, but apparently Jadis has had the opposite experience, so I feel like it's boiling down to a "he said she said" kind of thing almost.

My point is that biological men have no business is women-only spaces, including those who are fine, ordinary citizens who just want to live their lives. Societal classifications cannot be drawn on the basis of subjective self-ID. You can insinuate all you want about my "experience" in women's spaces, that changes nothing.

Sissy/bimbo kink is not the same thing as being a trans woman. Speaking as someone who is heavily involved in both kink and trans communities, I actually think there is a nuanced discussion that could be had here, but I'm not discussing it with someone who thinks that this applies to all trans women, and more importantly thinks that a person associating their transness with kink means they are not worthy of being respected as the gender they present as and identify with.

This hits close to home as someone who does take on a stereotypical hyperfeminine role and presentation in my kink identity. I don't claim that my kinks or others' are totally inoffensive and healthy, but having them is not a justification for gatekeeping trans identification, from anyone.

If they are happy transitioning and it makes them feel comfortable in their skin and they're not hurting anybody, what right do you have to say they are not "proper" trans people? You do not define our identity and you do not get to decide what any of it means, much less try to stop us from transitioning.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 10, 2023, 10:33 AMMy point is that biological men have no business is women-only spaces, including those who are fine, ordinary citizens who just want to live their lives. Societal classifications cannot be drawn on the basis of subjective self-ID. You can insinuate all you want about my "experience" in women's spaces, that changes nothing.

I'm aware of your thoughts on this. I think my cis women friends, who regularly invite me to women-only spaces and have shown me kindness and understanding regarding my transness, would disagree with you. You are saying they're wrong in doing so and acting like you represent all cis women. Believe whatever you want, but your idea of what trans people are is not shared by all cis people and they're not dumb or wrong for not sharing it.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 10, 2023, 10:33 AMSocietal classifications cannot be drawn on the basis of subjective self-ID. You can insinuate all you want about my "experience" in women's spaces, that changes nothing.

Interesting aside (maybe); in Norway, we have the Sami indigenous people. They have a special political influence in the north of Norway where they've lived for a long time and keep their reindeer herds.

You can register yourself as a Sami person. The basic requirement is that you feel like you're a Sami person. Essentially, that too is about identity.

This is just an example from Norway. I assume there may be many more. I ofc realize sami people have little to do wth American politics etc, but am just mentioning it so we don't assume basing legislation on identity is entirely unique.

About other things brought up, I may post more later.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Sep 10, 2023, 10:50 AMSissy/bimbo kink is not the same thing as being a trans woman. Speaking as someone who is heavily involved in both kink and trans communities, I actually think there is a nuanced discussion that could be had here, but I'm not discussing it with someone who thinks that this applies to all trans women, and more importantly thinks that a person associating their transness with kink means they are not worthy of being respected as the gender they present as and identify with.

This hits close to home as someone who does take on a stereotypical hyperfeminine role and presentation in my kink identity. I don't claim that my kinks or others' are totally inoffensive and healthy, but having them is not a justification for gatekeeping trans identification, from anyone.

If they are happy transitioning and it makes them feel comfortable in their skin and they're not hurting anybody, what right do you have to say they are not "proper" trans people? You do not define our identity and you do not get to decide what any of it means, much less try to stop us from transitioning.

I LOVE the idea that I'm "gatekeeping" the trans identity or trying to prevent adults from doing whatever they please with their bodies. Hilarious. 

I said maybe ten times in this thread that I have zero interest in the "legitimacy" of this or that gender identity. You literally cannot comprehend that because you are invested in this kind of talk.

There is an empirical, observable phenomenon of people "transitioning": my attitude is let's look at the vastly different manifestations of this, the array of motivations people have for transitioning. Because, among others, this is where it becomes genuinely interesting and you get talented people like ALC writing about it in ways that go beyond canned activist cliches.

That changes nothing about society's ability to accommodate certain political claims without impinging on certain groups' rights. But, as I've said, I'm keenly aware that not all trans people are as dull as you.

Quote from: jadis on Sep 10, 2023, 11:22 AMI'm keenly aware that not all trans people are as dull as you.

What the hell?

First, take some time off.

Second, you are barred from the Secret forum.

If you want to stick around, consider making an apology. It will be in your interest.

Fuck you, dullard

Quote from: jadis on Sep 10, 2023, 11:29 AMFuck you, dullard

I'll leave this post alone as another reminder of the imbecile you can be.

To anyone else who wants to discuss this further, this is what I expect:

Quote from: Guybrush on Sep 09, 2023, 07:06 PMAny further discussion on this topic is going to be:

• According to the rules
• In line with our goals

That means no nastiness, no ad hominems. That means I expect rhetoric that ultimately promotes friendship and trust.

I will hold myself to this as well. Those who cannot are free to discuss something else.

jadis, I think all your information is interesting and, as I'm sure everyone here knows, I'm not in disagreement with your points because I'm also looking at the big picture.

That being said, many trans issues are not really solvable ones in the present day as far as guaranteeing outcomes or the like (see: the detransitioners), so I don't think you will change their minds on every point since you all vary greatly in your respective personal experiences.

I've had some pretty heated arguments as well, but we all need to make the effort to be respectful or it destroys the point of even having these kinds of discussions.

Lol how to discredit and reduce yourself to a bully in 15 easy steps. Professors hate him!

On further reflection, I've decided to dump this thread in the graveyard. It's not that we can't discuss this topic, but if so, I'd prefer it if we start anew in something other than Toy Revolver's old thread.

If the topic interests you, you are free to make a new thread as long as it is in accordance with our rules.