Global politics

[Nimbly9]

Aside from people getting their brain signals mixed up and confusing the actions of the state of Israel with jewish people in general, why would US Americans not like Jews?

Is it a christian thing?

Some of it is the white Christians, some of it is the African-American community and a few other places.  The idea is that major financial institutions like BlackRock and organizations like Disney, as well as major film studios, favor Jewish leadership over people from other kinds of backgrounds.  So instead of white supremacy its like a form of systemic Jewish supremacy that emphasizes control over wealth in these particular industries (finance and entertainment) and presumably locks out people of color (and also locks out God-fearing Christians) from those opportunities.

[Jwb]

Yeah I don't feel like trying to convince you of anything.

You seem to regard the insane rise in antisemitism as a natural response to a conflict in a faraway country rather than evidence of a civilizational disease.

I find it's concerning that according to the new Harvard poll two thirds of US Zoomers believe this



But I'm also too familiar with the rhetoric — where Israel is painted as the global summum malum, while concern about antisemitism is viewed as evidence that those concerned are up to something — that brought us here to be surprised by it. I don't think you can combat a hate as deeply ingrained with good arguments and concessions that the state of Israel is far from perfect.   

You really think it's more effective to just endlessly play the victim card? It's incredibly frustrating. I'm not going to even look at whatever chart it is or anything else that you post until you start treating this convo like a 2 way street.


It seems to me that you are interested in trying to convince me.  You are just either unwilling to risk getting in an actual argument with me where it's not just you lecturing me like one of your students,  or maybe you think the discussion will get heated and cause animosity,  or maybe you simply realize in the back of your mind that you actually don't have a satisfactory response.

It certainly doesn't make sense for you to in one post try to change my mind with the cheap tactic of "you're too smart for this" and then in the next post act disinterested in changing my mind.  I'm frustrated more by the condescension combined with the lack of an attempt to make a real argument than anything else

[Jwb]

Also,  I would think we are both smart enough to realize neither of us are changing each other's minds.  Probably on any topic.

The point of these discussions is to air out arguments on both sides.  For the sheer sake of doing so.  That's all it's ever been.

[Jwb]

I don't really want to debate but suffice to say the use of the word anti-zionist is manipulated by antisemites with the goal of having it seem like everyone who doesnt believe in the traditional religious jewish homeland is on their side and having their own position seem acceptable. That means we should be careful with it, and 'anti' also implies something far less neutral than you are. Anyway I'm sure jadis knows more about that than I do. I haven't followed the discussion but I'd genuinely like to read your thoughts on why a Jewish state is not strongly desirable (if not necessary) for their safety and stability

I forgot to respond to this. I had already addressed this point in a previous post which I assumed was in this thread,  but I think it was actually in the other thread before I moved the discussion over here.

Basically, I acknowledge that in let's say Theodor Herzl's day,  it could have seemed like a compelling argument that the only way Jews would be safe was through a nation state of their own.  Herzl in some ways never got to see how correctly placed his fears were, as he died 40 years before the holocaust happened.

But Europe is a different place than it was 100 years ago. And so is the United states.  That's not to say antisemitism isn't an issue in these societies,  but it's not nearly on the level that it used to be.  And liberal democracies where people are supposed to share equal rights are the favored structure. These societies are supposed to be safe for all groups,  including jews.  I think that is largely the case, and I think it's better to invest in structures like these that are open ended and capable of theoretically absorbing immigrants from any population,  as opposed to investing in nationalist projects which then lead to further division and animosity,  particularly in the region where you set this up.

It's funny to imagine we are talking about a group that supposedly faces opposition every where they go,  that we're going to import them to a strip of land in one of the most tumultuous regions in the world and let them try to work on building a state there, while there's already people living there who view you as foreigners.  I don't think this would work out well with any group, but if you're going to argue that jews are especially hated then this makes that prospect even more dubious.

We often hear about,  and you sort of yourself referred to, the almost universal quality of antisemitism.  How it's global and enduring.  I think there's reasons for this perception,  many of which are based in Jewish tradition, but that it is somewhat over simplified.  Sometimes I even hear this type of talking point from apparent anti-semites, who say something along the lines of no matter where these people go they end up causing problems. 

The fact is,  jews are a somewhat insular group and that has often been a source of alienation and distrust, so they did get persecuted here and there by different groups prior to Christianity. They also lived in a tumultuous part of the world.  Having a state where they had one was even in ancient times a vulnerability that lead to multiple conquests and periods of exile.

But with that being said,  the lions share of antisemitism can attributed to Christian europe. It's not nearly as deep and mysterious as some make it seem.  They were the people who were accused of killing Christ.


The scientific antisemitism of the 19th century just grew out of what was an long standing animosity for Jews in Europe, and even the rise of rabid  antisemitism in the middle east in the 20th century is in part attributed to nazi propaganda being spread to that region of the world,  in combination with the mass migration of jews to Palestine and subsequent creation of Israel.

So I don't think any of this has actually made jews safer.  I think that is a zionist myth,  and frankly one that you don't even need to tell in order to make the argument that Israel has a right to defend itself and not be annihilated.  You can easily make that argument based purely on the sovereignty that is afforded to any nation state.  So I think this is a distraction.

Ultimately I would really like it if we didn't solely focus on antisemites or the supposed genocidal undertones to terms like anti-zionist, if we actually talk about what is happening right now in Israel.  Because the only plausible genocide scenario I can see is the Israelis ethnically cleansing Gaza.

[Marie Monday]

Seeing as I'm such a dumb yokel, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain this comment.

Why is it ironic that a Scandinavian would ask about what motivates anti-Semitism in the US?

idk about scandinavians specifically but you have to see that asking what motivates antisemitism anywhere is really very naive

[Guybrush]

idk about scandinavians specifically but you have to see that asking what motivates antisemitism anywhere is really very naive

Jadis posts a chart that says 67% of what I assume represent US citizens aged 18 to 24 describe Jews, as a class, as oppressors.

Maybe I am naive for not immediately understanding why this is. I guess I'm naive, then. 

Some of it is the white Christians, some of it is the African-American community and a few other places.  The idea is that major financial institutions like BlackRock and organizations like Disney, as well as major film studios, favor Jewish leadership over people from other kinds of backgrounds.  So instead of white supremacy its like a form of systemic Jewish supremacy that emphasizes control over wealth in these particular industries (finance and entertainment) and presumably locks out people of color (and also locks out God-fearing Christians) from those opportunities.

Thanks, friend 👌

[Marie Monday]

Jadis posts a chart that says 67% of what I assume represent US citizens aged 18 to 24 describe Jews, as a class, as oppressors.

Maybe I am naive for not immediately understanding why this is. I guess I'm naive, then. 

well, you were asking why Americans don't like jews and given that they have received hatred from every population they have shared a country with, I felt it was a naive question. If it's specifically about why jews are considered oppressors, that's also always been a way in which antisemitism has manifested and been justified, and it always keeps popping up in new variations, so not much cause for surprise either. I suspect that it's worse among young people for two reasons: 1. young people are generally more left wing so they don't like the Israeli government and exremely rich people (and are too naive to recognise the 'jews are rich' claim for what it is) 2. this young generation has grown up at a time when the aftershock of the holocaust has died out (and its last survivors are disappearing) and I think the realisation of the seriousness of antisemitism is dwindling, but I may be overthinking there

[Jwb]

Not to say our history has been perfect but again I think you are painting with a broad brush saying every country that has interacted with jews has had the same dynamic.  There are certainly better and worse places historically for Jews to live,  as well as better and worse time periods. I think America has not persecuted jews as much as certain European countries by a wide margin. America tended to aim more of its mob violence towards the black population.

In regard to the poll, there's a common perception of jews as the sort of man behind the red curtain pulling the strings. They tend to be high iq on average and have a culture that has always valued scholarly pursuits. As such they naturally have played a sort of outsized role in many domains,  which is perfect conspiracy fodder for those with that mindset.

[Marie Monday]

oh sure I'm not saying their treatment has been equally bad everywhere, but some level of hate and oppressor/invisible power conspiracy seems to be quite universal

[Jwb]

Yes but that doesn't automatically explain why it is naive to be surprised by such a high percentage of young Americans believing that.  America is not a rabidly antisemitic society nor does it have a history of being so.  Not to mention that America,  and particularly American Christians,  as Netanyahu himself notes,  are the biggest source of financial and ideological support for Israel worldwide.

So actually,  no.  Tore wasn't being naive by being surprised by such a stat. Very likely it has directly to do with all of the carnage that has happened in Gaza since Oct 7. Notice that the older you get in the poll, the less likely you are to believe the proposition.  That tracks pretty well with how different age demos in this country feel about Israel.

[Guybrush]

Thanks @Jwb

I know about being scapegoats for Jesus' murder, being money lenders in a time when christians weren't allowed to, conspiracy theories blossoming in WW2 Germany and elsewhere, but I'm definitely surprised if anti-semitism is increasing - possibly by a lot - in the younger demographic today. Of course there's the ongoing conflict, but it might be fueled by rhetoric outside of that and it's worth poking around in. I'm sure some sociologists are trying to do just that.

I'm asking about the US because Jadis brought up numbers from the US. I don't know if a current trend with anti-semitism among young people is a universal trend for universal reasons, though it might be.

[Marie Monday]

Yes but that doesn't automatically explain why it is naive to be surprised by such a high percentage of young Americans believing that.  America is not a rabidly antisemitic society nor does it have a history of being so.  Not to mention that America,  and particularly American Christians,  as Netanyahu himself notes,  are the biggest source of financial and ideological support for Israel worldwide.

So actually,  no.  Tore wasn't being naive by being surprised by such a stat. Very likely it has directly to do with all of the carnage that has happened in Gaza since Oct 7. Notice that the older you get in the poll, the less likely you are to believe the proposition.  That tracks pretty well with how different age demos in this country feel about Israel.

yeah but that wasn't his initial question and I was reacting to that

[Guybrush]

yeah but that wasn't his initial question and I was reacting to that

If you were a bit more generous in your assumptions, you might assume I was writing in reply to points brought up during the discussion. Sometimes - or even usually - I simply don't have time to write a carefully worded post that noone can misinterpret. A basic assumption that I'm following the thread is then nice.

This environment where my question is dismissed as ironic because it comes from a Scandinavian and then dismissed as naive, what does that achieve? I don't think it helps create an environment where meaningful discussion can actually flourish. Instead, you end up wasting energy on things which are completely besides what you were actually interested in, like this post and the one I wrote before it.

It's a big part why I have little taste for these discussions.

[DJChameleon]

If you were a bit more generous in your assumptions, you might assume I was writing in reply to points brought up during the discussion. Sometimes - or even usually - I simply don't have time to write a carefully worded post that noone can misinterpret. A basic assumption that I'm following the thread is then nice.

This environment where my question is dismissed as ironic because it comes from a Scandinavian and then dismissed as naive, what does that achieve? I don't think it helps create an environment where meaningful discussion can actually flourish. Instead, you end up wasting energy on things which are completely besides what you were actually interested in, like this post and the one I wrote before it.

It's a big part why I have little taste for these discussions.

The bolded is exactly why political discussions nowadays suck and people can't even be civil. They are either too up their own butt and feel superior about themselves to just have a general discussion OR the tribalism is so real that they are blinded by with team/talking points they subscribe to and just end up resorting to slinging insults at the other side.

[Marie Monday]

nah dude pointing out that something is naive is hardly uncivil. I still think even in its most generous interpretation the question was a bit naive, and a face-value interpretation followed the disussion guybrush was replying to perfectly well. I see nothing weird about having interpreted it that way. I know I sometimes get impatient or dismissive in discussions, I'll take your point on that, but 1. I'm used to posting MB spicy style but already water it down here, I honestly don't think it's that bad and 2. I'm tired and upset about the Israel/Palestine conflict so patience is not my greatest virtue there