Something Completely Different

Hey guys 🙂

The Velvet Underground is one of those bands where I like the debut and the odd song, but while I've heard Loaded and White light/white heat, they didn't stick with me for some reason. Maybe I wasn't ready back then? Either way, I believe I am now.

So I was hoping you'd share some favorites and if you wanna post some Reed, Cale or a bit of Nico or related, that would be cool too.

To start, I adore the song These Days sung by Nico from her album Chelsea Girl, but which I believe may also have ended up on some special re-releases of Velvet Underground & Nico.

The only thing I think about the Velvet Underground is "seldom."  Never liked them.  Can we talk about things that are NOT Reddit fare?  I tried with Don Ellis but I figure if he gets crickets, I don't belong here.

Crickets is the risk of going too niche, so I generally aim for something people know.

I read your Don Ellis thread, but haven't replied yet as I'm not familiar and wanted to get a quick listen to some of it first.

I knew Lars would be the new rostasi lol

Quote from: Marie Monday on Nov 29, 2023, 12:04 PMI knew Lars would be the new rostasi lol

Well the community is called "Something Completely Different."

There's all sorts of things that we could talk about:

Yaala Yaala
Sublime Frequencies
Synthwave and all of its offshoots
Rave
Sampled albums (a la The JAMs 1987 (What the Fuck Is Going On?)
Singles genres
Early academic electronic music a la Creel Pone
Early industrial such as The Sperm
Don Ellis
Stan Kenton
Herbie Mann
Third Stream
Alan Silva
Gabber
Schranz
Songs with great titles such as Chris Liebing's "The Biggest Ten Inch I've Ever Seen (Major Rush Mix)"
Radio 538 and how much fun it can be
Radio shows from Perfumed Garden all the way to what just hit Mixcloud yesterday
Radio shows from continents other than Europe and North America
Alternative sites such as ours, hearthis.at, and so on.
Disco as played in gay clubs versus the mainstream pop stuff people call disco but it's too slow
Hi NRG
How Divine might have claimed the title of "Filthiest Person Alive" with that raunchy nightclub act rather than the punchline to Pink Flamingos
The greatness that was ROIR in their heyday
Early gamer music ("You Are Dead" from Total Distortion comes to mind immediately)
Those yeah moments in music that make your toe shoot up in your boot.
The real reason why it's okay for Robert Plant, David Bowie, Marc Bolan, The B-52's, Patty Waters, Linda Sharrock, and Diamanda Galas to make THAT vocalese sound and they're great but if Yoko does the same exact thing she's untalented.
Why mega sales does NOT equal musical greatness by a long shot.

and this is what I thought of in about half a second.  Haven't even gotten started.  The point is that there's lots more music than what American rock critics fell over themselves praising and/or what sold by the truckload (Crazy Frog, koff koff).

The problem is that all of that stuff is SUPER TRITE and consequently it's boring which is why if this is going to be the meat of something called "Something Completely Different" I'm reconsidering whether I belong here or not.  I've seen it discussed to death for 30 years on the internet.  There's nothing new to say other than debunking a whole lot of misconceptions and I'm sick to the tits of doing that about Zappa.  Left that thread -- you won't be seeing me there any more. 

Now, consider I'm just saying -- there's an elephant in the room and it needs to be pointed out.

I have four of their albums in my record collection. 'The Velvet Underground & Nico,' 'Loaded,' 'VU,' and 'Another View.' Those are the ones I liked enough to buy copies of but I probably haven't listened to any of them in their entirety for several years. Never got into any of the other albums I heard of theirs but I haven't heard all of the ones that have been released over the years since they disbanded.

They had their moments but overall I think of them as a second-tier act.

@larsvsnapster I understand what you're saying, but we do have to consider the amount of overlap across SCD's collective musical tastes and familiarity with disparate genres and scenes. Plus the cultural element, sometimes with more niche areas of music there just isn't all that much a lot of us can say about them, at least speaking for my own cultural frame of reference.

Believe me, a large part of my music taste is the absolute furthest thing from mega popular or "stuff American rock critics liked", but I also have to consider the appeal to the audience here, this forum has 70 members and the regulars probably number something around half of that.

I'd gladly engage in any discussion about a lot of the stuff you listed, for the record.

Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 29, 2023, 10:55 AMCrickets is the risk of going too niche, so I generally aim for something people know.

Did you completely miss out on what consuming music was like before the internet? (That's not a spritzo.) I can't tell you how much fun it was to go crate digging, not to have tonnes of albums, but to hear what was new and hip and happening and maybe unbelievably weird or not necessarily radio friendly while you were doing it.  That's how I heard the Velvet Underground in the first place (to tie in with the subject).  I was ambivalent about them but put off forever when Bettie Serveert did that Bettie Serveert plays The Velvet Underground Songbook Live at the Dramminsdramminshollinshollins album or whatever it was called -- it's not like I'm an expert on either of them. But it's also how I heard the absolute greatness that was the early Destroy All Monsters when Thurston and Byron made that triple CD anthology and got it out through their Father Yod imprint.  It led me to Forced Exposure. You need a resource?  There's a smashing one! 

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 29, 2023, 03:51 PM@larsvsnapster I understand what you're saying, but we do have to consider the amount of overlap across SCD's collective musical tastes and familiarity with disparate genres and scenes. Plus the cultural element, sometimes with more niche areas of music there just isn't all that much a lot of us can say about them, at least speaking for my own cultural frame of reference.

Reactions! That's how my musical taste got formed, and it wasn't just my reactions.  It would be others reactions, and a lot of the time reactions to my tastes.

I got into DJ culture because someone told me I was getting old, because they had the JAMs, Orbital, 808 State, and a whole lotta breakbeat while I was still faffing about with Yes and ELP.  I thought, you know that is a very valid point, don't want to turn into my parents.  So he would play great stuff to me while we were at work, and showed me how repetition can be the coolest thing.  He also showed me that NOT knowing anything about what you're listening to can lead to more expansive enjoyment.  So I booked a table at the next record show, cherry picked some then essentials that I thought I might return to, lugged about 40,000 pieces there, put a sign up that said "everything must go, bulk offers accepted" and sold the lot in about 2 hours.  I then bought a new fresh collection of everything new, and learned of what might be one of the greatest things in music -- the DJ promo mix on cassette.  That became the radio and if you met a DJ you asked "got a tape?" and they would GIVE them to you.  You never knew what you were listening to because they didn't give tracklists, but that turned out to be a grand thing because when something familiar dropped at the club the place would just go ballistic and I can't describe the feeling of sudden euphoria when that happens -- it's better than when the cheeba hits the back of your neck. 

Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 29, 2023, 04:59 PMDid you completely miss out on what consuming music was like before the internet? (That's not a spritzo.) I can't tell you how much fun it was to go crate digging, not to have tonnes of albums, but to hear what was new and hip and happening and maybe unbelievably weird or not necessarily radio friendly while you were doing it.  That's how I heard the Velvet Underground in the first place (to tie in with the subject).  I was ambivalent about them but put off forever when Bettie Serveert did that Bettie Serveert plays The Velvet Underground Songbook Live at the Dramminsdramminshollinshollins album or whatever it was called -- it's not like I'm an expert on either of them. But it's also how I heard the absolute greatness that was the early Destroy All Monsters when Thurston and Byron made that triple CD anthology and got it out through their Father Yod imprint.  It led me to Forced Exposure. You need a resource?  There's a smashing one! 

I remember consuming music before I was using the internet, for me that was buying the latest Korn CD at Sam Goody because I liked the song I saw on TRL.

Not everyone was or is a record collecting connoisseur of the obscure. Even most people I know who are closer to you in age liked Fleetwood Mac and Abba and Led Zeppelin in the 70s and have never heard a single Velvet Underground song, let alone anything more underground than that. The average person on this forum's taste would absolutely blow their minds.

It takes all kinds, we have people from all walks of life here. If you want to make threads on any of those topics you listed, go for it! Be the change you wish to see on the forum.

Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 29, 2023, 12:32 PM*Monologue*

yep that's exactly what I mean
That doesn't mean I completely disagree with you, I'm just laughing at the way you make your point. Anyway, can we discuss the Yoko Ono vs. those other singers topic because I'm interested. I was also interested in the Don Ellis thing, for the record, I'm just busy. I haven't even reacted to grindy's Louis Cole thread yet. Don't mistake lack of immediate reaction for lack of interest

Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 29, 2023, 04:59 PMDid you completely miss out on what consuming music was like before the internet? (That's not a spritzo.) I can't tell you how much fun it was to go crate digging, not to have tonnes of albums, but to hear what was new and hip and happening and maybe unbelievably weird or not necessarily radio friendly while you were doing it.  That's how I heard the Velvet Underground in the first place (to tie in with the subject).  I was ambivalent about them but put off forever when Bettie Serveert did that Bettie Serveert plays The Velvet Underground Songbook Live at the Dramminsdramminshollinshollins album or whatever it was called -- it's not like I'm an expert on either of them. But it's also how I heard the absolute greatness that was the early Destroy All Monsters when Thurston and Byron made that triple CD anthology and got it out through their Father Yod imprint.  It led me to Forced Exposure. You need a resource?  There's a smashing one! 

Thanks, I'll check those things out 🙂

I was young, but of course I remember exploring music before the internet. But you may remember it more fondly in any case as I'm from a tiny Norwegian town and there was one similarly tiny music store. I'd get CD gift cards for a birthday or whatever and would more or less just have to find something. Whatever you picked, you ended up listening to here in those days.

The first time I really listened to The Velvet Underground was the first time I had sex. Not penetrative, but.. I was 16 and she was 18. We'd just become boyfriend and girlfriend and spent our first night together. I went down on her, something I'd been fantasizing about for a while. She came and I got the worst case of blue balls I've ever had 🙂

And we listened to The Velvet Underground & Nico 👌

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 29, 2023, 05:23 PMNot everyone was or is a record collecting connoisseur of the obscure.

Actually I'm as far from a record collector as you can get.  The purge happened 35 years ago, and I was completely digital by 1996, initially just ripping CD's, backing them up and then selling them back in a different town or through the old GEMM website.  Usenet was a fantastic resource for it being unpoliced.  Napster happened and I completely ate it up, and that turned into Soulseek, still going strong after all these years.  It was always "I need to get out of buying all this rotating plastic and miles of magnetic ribbon -- it's useless and worthless."  Nowadays there's so much coming from radio shows around the world that I get those to fulfill the mystery aspects.  The so-called avant-garde is maybe 1.5% of my listening, but I do hear at least two collections of some sort a week.  This last week's music was almost exclusively vaporwave -- I think there was one crustpunk radio show in there.  I'm not going for obscurity, per se, and I hear current mersh hits frequently without knowing what they are. 

Quote from: Marie Monday on Nov 29, 2023, 05:29 PMAnyway, can we discuss the Yoko Ono vs. those other singers topic because I'm interested.

Sure.  I had my epiphany on a trip to Japan.  Naturally I turned on pop radio to check it out.  I was familiar with YMO, Sadistic Mika Band, and a few others, mostly from the glam and early techno eras.  I was listening to a flashback type show, with about 20% of the selections being older than 4 years.  They played Yoko's "Josejoi Banzai" -- which didn't get released in the West for years.  It fit in with everything else perfectly -- time frame was early 80's, when odd singers were all over the place.  I remember the next song they played after Yoko was Lene Lovich "Lucky Number" and I couldn't believe how well they fit in sequence.  Apparently the focus of the show I was listening to was hiccupy singers who make odd animal noises frequently -- yes they played the B-52s too. 

So I started thinking of Yoko's vocalese and when I listened to Yoko Ono Plastic Ono Band and Life with the Lions with free jazz ears, they made absolute total sense.  Although she wasn't doing anything all that new in that context, she instantly became better than that other group with the guy she was married to in it.  And then I started hearing her everywhere else, including all those people I mentioned.  Especially Marc Bolan.  Here we've got the UK just going gaga over him and he's up on the stage going "AEiAEIAIEIAEIAEIAEIEEEEEE!!" just like Yoko! It took a bit to work out the gravity of what I was perceiving, but it was like this big flashing neon sign that said HYPOCRACY becoming permanently burned into my brain.  It's intensified to the point that if I ever look at other music forums that's all I see.  This community is a little different, and my concern is to keep it that way.

When I say "record collector" I include people who are collectors in spirit. People who have a taste for and a hunger to seek out and discover esoteric and niche stuff. Walking encyclopedias of musical knowledge.

I don't mean to imply that I think you only like avant-garde stuff, just that from what you've posted it does appear to me that you have a more obscure, niche and eclectic taste in general. Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure we have plenty of overlap in our tastes.

Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 29, 2023, 06:56 PMI don't mean to imply that I think you only like avant-garde stuff, just that from what you've posted it does appear to me that you have a more obscure, niche and eclectic taste in general. Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure we have plenty of overlap in our tastes.

I actually have been making monster hit packs monthly for over 25 years.  They're generally 500-700 songs, everything in every chart I can come across for the current month.  In two days I'll be doing it for November 2023.  I hear far more mersh and top 40 stuff than the esoteric stuff in regular listening.  After 1988 or so everything gets a chance as long as I keep names and artists out of it so that I can listen without prejudice.  Believe it or not the most cutting edge techniques are in the hits, although I can't say I like the current trends of whispering and cursive singing.  I could do without all the epithets in trap as well, but I still give it a chance just to be musically knowledgeable.  I have heard damn near every Rihanna or Taylor Swift song that's ever been on the charts, but the big thing I notice about them is that they do not have anything to suggest their tunes are theirs -- they fit in so well with everything else that it does blur. 

Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 29, 2023, 06:47 PMSure.  I had my epiphany on a trip to Japan.  Naturally I turned on pop radio to check it out.  I was familiar with YMO, Sadistic Mika Band, and a few others, mostly from the glam and early techno eras.  I was listening to a flashback type show, with about 20% of the selections being older than 4 years.  They played Yoko's "Josejoi Banzai" -- which didn't get released in the West for years.  It fit in with everything else perfectly -- time frame was early 80's, when odd singers were all over the place.  I remember the next song they played after Yoko was Lene Lovich "Lucky Number" and I couldn't believe how well they fit in sequence.  Apparently the focus of the show I was listening to was hiccupy singers who make odd animal noises frequently -- yes they played the B-52s too. 

So I started thinking of Yoko's vocalese and when I listened to Yoko Ono Plastic Ono Band and Life with the Lions with free jazz ears, they made absolute total sense.  Although she wasn't doing anything all that new in that context, she instantly became better than that other group with the guy she was married to in it.  And then I started hearing her everywhere else, including all those people I mentioned.  Especially Marc Bolan.  Here we've got the UK just going gaga over him and he's up on the stage going "AEiAEIAIEIAEIAEIAEIEEEEEE!!" just like Yoko! It took a bit to work out the gravity of what I was perceiving, but it was like this big flashing neon sign that said HYPOCRACY becoming permanently burned into my brain.  It's intensified to the point that if I ever look at other music forums that's all I see.  This community is a little different, and my concern is to keep it that way.

but where do you think those double standards came from? her being 1.eccentric 2.a woman 3.japanese, all of the above, or something else? Maybe part of it is also that she took this type of vocal to a slightly more intense level than those other artists; I mean that they stayed just on the safe side of the line and she was the one who took a tiny extra step to make it daring and exciting. Most of those other singers still try to please the listener; for instance, they try to keep it more or less 'sexy' in the conventional rock star way but Yoko, while still keeping it sensual, does so entirely on her own terms without trying to keep the listeners comfortable

Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 29, 2023, 09:22 PMdamn near every Rihanna or Taylor Swift song that's ever been on the charts, but the big thing I notice about them is that they do not have anything to suggest their tunes are theirs -- they fit in so well with everything else that it does blur. 

I agree, and I would say the exact same thing about most music in most genres. Like ambient drone and 90s death metal aren't exactly known for every artist having a particularly unique stamp.

Pop music is mostly a producers and songwriters game anyway, you very much can spot their hallmarks and idiosyncrasies more so than the singer a lot of the time.

Quote from: Marie Monday on Nov 29, 2023, 10:01 PMbut where do you think those double standards came from? her being 1.eccentric 2.a woman 3.japanese, all of the above, or something else? Maybe part of it is also that she took this type of vocal to a slightly more intense level than those other artists; I mean that they stayed just on the safe side of the line and she was the one who took a tiny extra step to make it daring and exciting. Most of those other singers still try to please the listener; for instance, they try to keep it more or less 'sexy' in the conventional rock star way but Yoko, while still keeping it sensual, does so entirely on her own terms without trying to keep the listeners comfortable

You think so?  I don't hear it that way.  Like everyone else I first heard her doing her thing through Two Virgins and that one's fantastic for simply being a document of two people falling in love as they're actually doing it.

I find Patty Waters far more extreme than Yoko with the vocalese purely because she focusses on dynamic extremes, but Dick Higgins took that quite a bit further.  That danger music series from Higgins was meant to be conceptual rather than actually performed but there are somewhat painful videos and recordings of people attempting to realise the vocal shredding ones in particular, and in some cases injuring themselves permanently.  Yoko knew Dick Higgins very very well, and they worked together, so I'm sure that's part of where it came from.  Diamanda Galas emerged about 15 years after Yoko did, and by that time the vocalese had its own tradition as part of the set of extended techniques for the voice.  That that vocalese still has the ability to shock and repel 50 years on -- but only if it comes from Yoko -- that seems super dodgy to me. 

The only plausible explanation that I can think of about the anti-Yoko thing doesn't have anything to do with whether she's eccentric -- I find her down to earth but willing to express herself like a child, and if that's eccentric so be it.  I find it to be racist rather than sexist.  That she's Japanese has something to do with it, but nothing she ever did sounds that far off from other pop music in Japan.  She grew up with the same formative eastern influences that everyone else did, and so it wasn't really all that much of a surprise that even though she sounds a lot like John when she's doing her pop stuff, someone like Cui Jan (from China, whose entire musical influence seems to be Lionel Richie) can be played right upside her and it still has a certain homogeneity that music from East naturally carries.  I've looked for the weirdness in her stuff for years, and I just simply can't find it.  Everything she's ever done I can find some sort of precedent.  She smashed out of nowhere to Beatles fans, and I don't have to tell you how prejudiced that lot can be. 

not lacking precedent doesn't mean it's not weird. It's hard to explain what makes her 'weird' to people but I suspect you don't see it because your view of music may be rather clinical. I agree that racism is probably a factor

So, uhm, someone made a cute video for After Hours.


I like the song even if the bass is a little weird.

With VU, I always considered John Cale and Nico to be the more interesting artists, so they are the ones whose post-VU careers I have dipped into occasionally. Here's just a couple of tracks I've enjoyed:-

Catchiest track from John Cale's 1996 album, Walking On Locusts:-



Here's the great scene-setter for Nico's live album, Behind The Iron Curtain, 1986. Maybe it's the song title, but doesn't it evoke those cold dark plains of Northern Europe when all you want to do is get out of the wind? Her band at the time was called Faction, so a lot of credit to them for this atmospheric gem.
 

Yes!! That's the stuff, @Lisnaholic 🙂

I enjoyed both those songs and agree with you about Cale and Nico. Both are interesting and I know some of their stuff, yet I haven't taken the deep plunge with either.

Thank you for sharing!

^ Thanks, Guybrush ! I'm glad you liked those tracks and I'll be happy to hear what material you come across if you do "take the deep plunge".

If you haven't heard it already, Church Of Anthrax (1971) will be a real highlight, I think. It's the only album John Cale and Terry Riley made together, and what's strange is how it sounds so little like either of them! It's intricate, and fast-paced, except for one track that really shouldn't've made it to the final album, imo.

 

Only post Velvet Underground thing I've heard besides the odd Lou Reed solo track is the recording of Nico's performance with Tangerine Dream at the Reims cathedral in 1974. Fascinating story behind that show actually.

But honestly the VU themselves were really hit or miss in my book. Well, maybe not miss exactly but a good amount of their stuff is not really my thing. But the songs of theirs I do like, I really like. Venus in Furs and All Tomorrows Parties rule.

Quote from: Lisnaholic on Dec 01, 2023, 12:00 AM^ Thanks, Guybrush ! I'm glad you liked those tracks and I'll be happy to hear what material you come across if you do "take the deep plunge".

If you haven't heard it already, Church Of Anthrax (1971) will be a real highlight, I think. It's the only album John Cale and Terry Riley made together, and what's strange is how it sounds so little like either of them! It's intricate, and fast-paced, except for one track that really shouldn't've made it to the final album, imo.

 

good stuff