Quote from: SGR on Dec 06, 2023, 06:34 PMI think that lack of enthusiasm may be a big reason why Biden might lose. Trump has a very enthusiastic and loyal base that's going to vote for him regardless - Biden doesn't really have that. I think many people who voted for Biden in 2020 weren't voting for him so much as they were voting against Trump. Now that Biden's been in office for 3 years, life still sucks and hasn't gotten better for young people (I should know), I think that for many, apathy has set in a bit. Where they might've voted for Biden in 2020, they might just stay home this time.

^ I'm sorry to hear your verdict on life, SGR. I hope things aren't too grim for you for too long. You're right about the dynamic of people voting Biden just to get Trump out of office in 2020, and perhaps, as you say, young people might be deciding to stay at home in 2024. That could cause a real prob for the US, which is, according to Liz Cheney, "sleepwalking into a dictatorship". 

Here's a totally biased list of Biden accomplishments, because it comes from the official White House website. Some are rather vague and most are drops-in-the-ocean stuff, so I'm sure they don't have much immediate impact on you. Even so, isn't there anything on there that makes you think, "oh, yeah. That's a good thing done." 

Spoiler
TOP ACCOMPLISHMENTS

Lowering Costs of Families' Everyday Expenses

More People Are Working Than At Any Point in American History

Making More in America

Rescued the Economy and Changed the Course of the Pandemic

Rebuilding our Infrastructure

Historic Expansion of Benefits and Services for Toxic Exposed Veterans

The First Meaningful Gun Violence Reduction Legislation in 30 Years

Protected Marriage for LGBTQI+ and Interracial Couples

Historic Confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson and Federal Judges of Diverse Backgrounds

Rallied the World to Support Ukraine in Response to Putin's Aggression

Strengthened Alliances and Partnerships to Deliver for the American People

Successful Counterterrorism Missions Against the Leaders of Al Qaeda and ISIS

Executive Orders Protecting Reproductive Rights

Historic Student Debt Relief for Middle- and Working-Class Families

Ending our Failed Approach to Marijuana

Advancing Equity and Racial Justice, Including Historic Criminal Justice Reform

Delivering on the Most Aggressive Climate and Environmental Justice Agenda in American History

More People with Health Insurance Than Ever Before
 
Source and details: https://www.whitehouse.gov/therecord/
[close]


To get lost is to learn the way.

https://twitter.com/theblaze/status/1732585805128892673

It's one thing to say that demographics is used as a political tool (it is) and that immigration policy of a govt is open to debate (a discussion within a political community what are the condition of membership in it and at what rate should others be able to join is not racist. A political community by definition has an outside). Endorsing the explanatory logic of the most racist theory to come out of the French far right since WW2 is a different thing. This guy is a disaster. 

Practitioner of Soviet Foucauldian Catholicism

Agreed. What the actual fuck


#273 Dec 08, 2023, 04:29 PM Last Edit: Dec 08, 2023, 05:07 PM by Nimbly9
It isn't that hard to talk about tbh. It's short game / long game dynamics at play.  Democrats want large scale amnesty for people who came here illegally because it adds millions of potential Democrat voters to the registry.  Republicans make a stronger distinction between people who came here through illegal means versus those who wait years in line for an opportunity, so they aren't ever going to embrace amnesty-oriented policies even if such a policy might actually turn those people into Republican voters long-term.

They are thinking about it like this - "Even if we can convince a percentage of those people as they get older to give the Republican platform a chance, we're still talking eons of time in a political sense". In order to do something about that narrative, they'd have to come up with their own take on immigration reform that makes sense and so far they've done very little about it.  And they have nobody to blame but themselves for not having a good answer to some of these issues.

This is from 10 years ago but still fairly relevant in regards to any conversation about what Vivek is most likely looking at.

Politico - Immigration reform could be bonanza for Dems


Quote from: Lisnaholic on Dec 08, 2023, 05:03 AM^ I'm sorry to hear your verdict on life, SGR. I hope things aren't too grim for you for too long. You're right about the dynamic of people voting Biden just to get Trump out of office in 2020, and perhaps, as you say, young people might be deciding to stay at home in 2024. That could cause a real prob for the US, which is, according to Liz Cheney, "sleepwalking into a dictatorship". 

Here's a totally biased list of Biden accomplishments, because it comes from the official White House website. Some are rather vague and most are drops-in-the-ocean stuff, so I'm sure they don't have much immediate impact on you. Even so, isn't there anything on there that makes you think, "oh, yeah. That's a good thing done." 

Spoiler
TOP ACCOMPLISHMENTS

Lowering Costs of Families' Everyday Expenses

More People Are Working Than At Any Point in American History

Making More in America

Rescued the Economy and Changed the Course of the Pandemic

Rebuilding our Infrastructure

Historic Expansion of Benefits and Services for Toxic Exposed Veterans

The First Meaningful Gun Violence Reduction Legislation in 30 Years

Protected Marriage for LGBTQI+ and Interracial Couples

Historic Confirmation of Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson and Federal Judges of Diverse Backgrounds

Rallied the World to Support Ukraine in Response to Putin's Aggression

Strengthened Alliances and Partnerships to Deliver for the American People

Successful Counterterrorism Missions Against the Leaders of Al Qaeda and ISIS

Executive Orders Protecting Reproductive Rights

Historic Student Debt Relief for Middle- and Working-Class Families

Ending our Failed Approach to Marijuana

Advancing Equity and Racial Justice, Including Historic Criminal Justice Reform

Delivering on the Most Aggressive Climate and Environmental Justice Agenda in American History

More People with Health Insurance Than Ever Before
 
Source and details: https://www.whitehouse.gov/therecord/
[close]

I didn't mean it to be a verdict on life, just how a lot of young people are probably feeling now - inflation and the absolute insanity of real estate prices and high interest rates. For me personally, a few years back, buying a house was very well within reach, and then COVID happened and those fucking houses got driven up over $150k in price, making it a lot more difficult. Not only that, but the real estate market, at least in my area, is still insanely hot. And we've got rich boomers from out of state that are buying up these houses, sight unseen, as a vacation home or with plans for an AirB&B. So some of the houses I've planned to check out are under contract within days before I can even see them. Other houses have an offer deadline 24 hours from the time you see them - make one of the biggest financial decisions of your life in 24 hours? Really?

I'm technically a millennial, one of the last. And we're, I think, the first generation in a long time to have it worse than the previous generation (in America). It's just frustrating.

And no doubt that Biden has his accomplishments, but his administration's messaging is poor. And I'm guessing a lot of young people, myself included, would have to think long and hard if we were asked how Biden has made our lives better.


#275 Dec 08, 2023, 07:40 PM Last Edit: Dec 08, 2023, 07:54 PM by SGR
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 08, 2023, 04:29 PMIt isn't that hard to talk about tbh. It's short game / long game dynamics at play.  Democrats want large scale amnesty for people who came here illegally because it adds millions of potential Democrat voters to the registry.  Republicans make a stronger distinction between people who came here through illegal means versus those who wait years in line for an opportunity, so they aren't ever going to embrace amnesty-oriented policies even if such a policy might actually turn those people into Republican voters long-term.

They are thinking about it like this - "Even if we can convince a percentage of those people as they get older to give the Republican platform a chance, we're still talking eons of time in a political sense". In order to do something about that narrative, they'd have to come up with their own take on immigration reform that makes sense and so far they've done very little about it.  And they have nobody to blame but themselves for not having a good answer to some of these issues.

This is from 10 years ago but still fairly relevant in regards to any conversation about what Vivek is most likely looking at.

Politico - Immigration reform could be bonanza for Dems

So this is kinda funny, Vivek said in the debate: '[The Great Replacement theory] is not some grand right-wing conspiracy theory, but a basic statement of the Democratic party's platform.' and CNN's Van Jones was 'literally shaking' listening to him say it:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/i-was-shaking-listening-to-him-van-jones-says-vivek-ramaswamys-debate-remarks-one-step-away-from-nazi-propaganda/

Vivek's campaign found this from Van Jones in 2021.  :laughing:  :laughing:

https://twitter.com/VivekGRamaswamy/status/1732961353411833935

Van Jones doth protest too much. It looks, y'know, maybe a little disingenuous when you're criticizing Vivek for what he said, when you're on camera saying "The request from the racial justice left: we want the white majority to go from being a majority to being a minority and like it."


Quote from: SGR on Dec 08, 2023, 04:48 PMI didn't mean it to be a verdict on life, just how a lot of young people are probably feeling now - inflation and the absolute insanity of real estate prices and high interest rates. For me personally, a few years back, buying a house was very well within reach, and then COVID happened and those fucking houses got driven up over $150k in price, making it a lot more difficult. Not only that, but the real estate market, at least in my area, is still insanely hot. And we've got rich boomers from out of state that are buying up these houses, sight unseen, as a vacation home or with plans for an AirB&B. So some of the houses I've planned to check out are under contract within days before I can even see them. Other houses have an offer deadline 24 hours from the time you see them - make one of the biggest financial decisions of your life in 24 hours? Really?

I'm technically a millennial, one of the last. And we're, I think, the first generation in a long time to have it worse than the previous generation (in America). It's just frustrating.

And no doubt that Biden has his accomplishments, but his administration's messaging is poor. And I'm guessing a lot of young people, myself included, would have to think long and hard if we were asked how Biden has made our lives better.

Yes, I'm sorry, SGR. I didn't mean to say that your casual remark was like your final philosophic summary of life. My apologies.
I'm really sorry if covid robbed you of your chance to buy a house, and I hope you are able to try again even if you have to aim lower in terms of what you can buy. I sympathise with what you say about houses, because that has so long been true in the UK too, at least in the popular south-east of the country. Houses are just beyond the reach of most first-time buyers, and apartments sell so fast that you have to make snap decisions or risk being "gazumped" (= someone comes in with a higher offer and you lose the chance to buy.)

So, yeah, for millenials and later generations, a lot about life sucks - but as usual, with my pro-Democrat agenda, I'd like to mention that inflation and property prices are common probs around the world: I suspect that Biden is not to blame, and Biden can't fix it, but even so he'll be better for America than MAGA Republicans, dismantling abortion rights, voting rights, Obamacare, etc, etc. Then people will have even more cause to say, "we have it worse than previous generations".

To get lost is to learn the way.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 08, 2023, 04:29 PMIt isn't that hard to talk about tbh. It's short game / long game dynamics at play.  Democrats want large scale amnesty for people who came here illegally because it adds millions of potential Democrat voters to the registry.  Republicans make a stronger distinction between people who came here through illegal means versus those who wait years in line for an opportunity, so they aren't ever going to embrace amnesty-oriented policies even if such a policy might actually turn those people into Republican voters long-term.

They are thinking about it like this - "Even if we can convince a percentage of those people as they get older to give the Republican platform a chance, we're still talking eons of time in a political sense". In order to do something about that narrative, they'd have to come up with their own take on immigration reform that makes sense and so far they've done very little about it.  And they have nobody to blame but themselves for not having a good answer to some of these issues.

This is from 10 years ago but still fairly relevant in regards to any conversation about what Vivek is most likely looking at.

Politico - Immigration reform could be bonanza for Dems

But it doesn't and you know why? They aren't able to vote so that's not even an argument. Also the so called illegals that people complain about ARE actually legal. If you are an asylum seeker you are at the beginning of the legal process to come into the country. Immigrants is what this country was founded on but all of a sudden the most patriotic party seems to forget how the nation that they love so much came to be and that their ancestors were immigrants as well at one point in time unless they are native Americans.

Republicans should back immigrants more a prime example is in Florida where Cubans come to the states then want to shut the door behind them and are all of a sudden anti-immigrants and share the values of Republicans so they end up voting red.

Vivek was a whole ass clown in that debate and by far the worst performance he has ever had. It might have been his most entertaining to watch but debate wise he is all over the place and falling apart. Jumping super hard behind conspiracy theories like was mentioned earlier by jadis to break out gags that stupid legal pad was lame. I hated it. He lost me completely I don't even care now.

I was this cool the whole time.

It is beginning to feel like Vivek is just a proxy for Trump, given his absence in the debates.


#279 Dec 11, 2023, 07:17 PM Last Edit: Dec 11, 2023, 07:27 PM by Nimbly9
Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 11, 2023, 11:42 AMBut it doesn't and you know why? They aren't able to vote so that's not even an argument. Also the so called illegals that people complain about ARE actually legal.

You should try that argument over at a U.S. embassy sometime.  I'd love to hear what they'd say about it.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 11, 2023, 11:42 AMRepublicans should back immigrants more a prime example is in Florida where Cubans come to the states then want to shut the door behind them and are all of a sudden anti-immigrants and share the values of Republicans so they end up voting red.

I don't disagree.  The smart thing for Republicans to do politically would be to stop complaining about how the Democrats give "free" phones and hotel rooms and other stuff to illegals and their incessant whining about shifting demographics and the "rule of law" and just commit to being the vanguard at passing some big ass amnesty laws.  They'd wipe Democrats off the map forever if they did that within a decade or two, but that would require a massive sea change in thinking about immigration policy that I doubt they have the capability for.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 11, 2023, 11:42 AMVivek was a whole ass clown in that debate and by far the worst performance he has ever had. It might have been his most entertaining to watch but debate wise he is all over the place and falling apart. Jumping super hard behind conspiracy theories like was mentioned earlier by jadis to break out gags that stupid legal pad was lame. I hated it. He lost me completely I don't even care now.

He's right about Nikki Haley and the neocons so tbh I could care less about conspiracy theories.  We already know the world is full of conspiracies - law of averages works in Vivek's favor here. Remember MK Ultra? That was real despite elites up in Washington and elsewhere saying it wasn't for years and years. Someone gonna take responsibility for that over on capitol hill? Probably not.

Quote from: DJChameleon on Dec 11, 2023, 11:42 AMIf you are an asylum seeker you are at the beginning of the legal process to come into the country. Immigrants is what this country was founded on but all of a sudden the most patriotic party seems to forget how the nation that they love so much came to be and that their ancestors were immigrants as well at one point in time unless they are native Americans.

The U.S. has a broken system in general for anyone who wants to even visit here, much less live here.  I would know, seeing as I've been dealing with it for someone special to me from overseas for over a year.  But very few in our political ruling class are going to tell you open borders is a good idea because they've seen how badly its gone over in Europe.  Nobody wants to risk being complicit, even indirectly, of some future 9/11-type event in their country that came about as a result of letting someone in from X or Y country.


Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 08, 2023, 04:29 PMIt isn't that hard to talk about tbh. It's short game / long game dynamics at play.  Democrats want large scale amnesty for people who came here illegally because it adds millions of potential Democrat voters to the registry.  Republicans make a stronger distinction between people who came here through illegal means versus those who wait years in line for an opportunity, so they aren't ever going to embrace amnesty-oriented policies even if such a policy might actually turn those people into Republican voters long-term.

They are thinking about it like this - "Even if we can convince a percentage of those people as they get older to give the Republican platform a chance, we're still talking eons of time in a political sense". In order to do something about that narrative, they'd have to come up with their own take on immigration reform that makes sense and so far they've done very little about it.  And they have nobody to blame but themselves for not having a good answer to some of these issues.

This is from 10 years ago but still fairly relevant in regards to any conversation about what Vivek is most likely looking at.

Politico - Immigration reform could be bonanza for Dems
people were making this argument 10 years ago,  i honestly remeber hearing a similar segment on npr in line 2012, but the recent trends with both Hispanic and black voters seem to cast the idea that these are Democrat voters into doubt

I also think you are overlooking the elephant in the room: the Republican base themselves are rabidly anti immigrant. If they were to pivot outright with a pro immigration policy, that actually very likely would hurt whichever republican politicians embraced that policy, because they stand to lose more white voters than they stand to gain Hispanics.

But what is the other option besides amnesty? How many of them do you realistically think it's feasible to even deport? Republicans aren't even living in reality when they speak about this issue.


Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 11, 2023, 07:17 PMYou should try that argument over at a U.S. embassy sometime.  I'd love to hear what they'd say about it.


Xenophobes mix asylum seekers in with illegal immigrants. I'm not saying there aren't any illegal immigrants but the ones that have come to NYC specifically over the past year and a half are different. They have gone through criminal background checks and have medical backgrounds done on them along with giving them any shots they need to get their health status up to date. They have it happen in Texas when they cross the border and load up onto the buses and they are checked again once they get to NYC. I know because I have talked to some of the Asylum Seekers that were bussed upstate. I was part of a welcome party with a local community group so they aren't scared away by fear mongering idiots in the red party.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 11, 2023, 07:17 PMI don't disagree.  The smart thing for Republicans to do politically would be to stop complaining about how the Democrats give "free" phones and hotel rooms and other stuff to illegals and their incessant whining about shifting demographics and the "rule of law" and just commit to being the vanguard at passing some big ass amnesty laws.  They'd wipe Democrats off the map forever if they did that within a decade or two, but that would require a massive sea change in thinking about immigration policy that I doubt they have the capability for.

They are too busy gerrymandering districts to care about putting together a comprehensive amnesty plan/law.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 11, 2023, 07:17 PMHe's right about Nikki Haley and the neocons so tbh I could care less about conspiracy theories.  We already know the world is full of conspiracies - law of averages works in Vivek's favor here. Remember MK Ultra? That was real despite elites up in Washington and elsewhere saying it wasn't for years and years. Someone gonna take responsibility for that over on capitol hill? Probably not.

That's the thing, it doesn't matter if he's right or wrong. He's still ends up looking like a lunatic for siding with these conspiracy theories. He might as well go all in and say that Q endorses him.  :laughing:

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 11, 2023, 07:17 PMThe U.S. has a broken system in general for anyone who wants to even visit here, much less live here.  I would know, seeing as I've been dealing with it for someone special to me from overseas for over a year.  But very few in our political ruling class are going to tell you open borders is a good idea because they've seen how badly its gone over in Europe. Nobody wants to risk being complicit, even indirectly, of some future 9/11-type event in their country that came about as a result of letting someone in from X or Y country.

This is more fear mongering talking points from Fox News imo. Specifically the bolded part. We have let a lot of immigrants in so far, I'm not pro-open borders but I think the amount of people that we have let in so far is fine. We just need federal funding to get their shit together and provide the funds to house some of these individual and for stupid republicans not to fight back so hard. There are plenty of housing areas available upstate NY that could take some of the pressure off of NYC but the Republicans in power upstate are fighting tooth and nail not to have immigrants come to their areas which would end up being a bonus for local businesses because they would in turn end up having a better workforce.

I was this cool the whole time.

#282 Dec 11, 2023, 11:05 PM Last Edit: Dec 12, 2023, 12:05 AM by Nimbly9
You say it's a talking point, but can you really blame them? Most of the hijackers who ended up blowing up the twin towers came to the U.S. originally on tourist visas after all.  Unfortunately, the immigration system is still reeling from that incident even now. The paranoia from people in government regarding self-identified asylum seekers coming here that evade background checks or falsify information or run off somehow is palpable.

See, it doesn't matter to our red and blue overlords if 99.9% of their fears are unfounded. Their attitude is an understandable but ultimately punitive overcorrection to a problem they don't really know how to solve.  But you can't have a truly just society without allowing for some risk.  Everything is a trade-off.  They just aren't willing to do it.




Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 11, 2023, 07:17 PMBut very few in our political ruling class are going to tell you open borders is a good idea because they've seen how badly its gone over in Europe.  Nobody wants to risk being complicit, even indirectly, of some future 9/11-type event in their country that came about as a result of letting someone in from X or Y country.
No,  I don't agree at all lol.  It's not a security concern.  That concern is just inherit to sharing a massive border with Mexico and another with Canada,  though that one isn't as notorious both pose an inherit security threat to a certain extent.  But all things considered  we have probably the most secure set up in the entire world.  There are issues with drug trafficking and other types of trafficking of course, but a potential terror threat coming through the southern border is not necessarily any more likely than them just flying here commercially with a valid passport. There is no border policy that protects you from a future 9/11. Only a robust and effective intelligence agency can do such a thing.

And you can point to Muslims in Europe which is a common scare tactic but the reality is,  whatever you want to say about muslim immigrants in Europe doesn't really apply to Central and southern American immigrants to the United states.  There is organized crime, but not so much in the way of Jihad.  And culturally they really aren't nearly as foreign as someone from say North Africa or the middle east.

The main concern is and has always been demographics.  In other words maintaining a white majority. We don't like to say that part out loud.  But our parents used to. 


Quote from: Jwb on Dec 11, 2023, 11:50 PMNo,  I don't agree at all lol.  It's not a security concern.  That concern is just inherit to sharing a massive border with Mexico and another with Canada,  though that one isn't as notorious both pose an inherit security threat to a certain extent.  But all things considered  we have probably the most secure set up in the entire world.  There are issues with drug trafficking and other types of trafficking of course, but a potential terror threat coming through the southern border is not necessarily any more likely than them just flying here commercially with a valid passport. There is no border policy that protects you from a future 9/11. Only a robust and effective intelligence agency can do such a thing.

And you can point to Muslims in Europe which is a common scare tactic but the reality is,  whatever you want to say about muslim immigrants in Europe doesn't really apply to Central and southern American immigrants to the United states.  There is organized crime, but not so much in the way of Jihad.  And culturally they really aren't nearly as foreign as someone from say North Africa or the middle east.

The main concern is and has always been demographics.  In other words maintaining a white majority. We don't like to say that part out loud.  But our parents used to.

Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 11, 2023, 11:05 PMSee, it doesn't matter to our red and blue overlords if 99.9% of their fears are unfounded. Their attitude is an understandable but ultimately punitive overcorrection to a problem they don't really know how to solve.  But you can't have a truly just society without allowing for some risk.  Everything is a trade-off.  They just aren't willing to do it.