We don't have a thread for politics that are not American yet. In case you've heard about the Dutch elections you can probably imagine that I'm appalled and upset so I guess that's a fitting occasion for making this thread
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2KxL3sX/DT2023.jpg)
"Dutch Trump" looks a bit odd and somewhat creepy and alien-like.
In addition to that observation, it also looks like he's speaking from inside a padded cell.
Trump.
Wilders.
Johnson.
Milei.
What is it about this brand of politicians that inspires such terrible haircuts?
I know why Johnson was doing it but what's the excuse for the rest of them?
Ireland going all "far right" is very interesting.
A country that likes to pretend it is better than all of that.
Looks quite hostile in Dublin tonight.
https://twitter.com/DVATW/status/1727763004068966754
https://twitter.com/KeithWoodsYT/status/1727782478478229583
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Nov 23, 2023, 07:24 PMTrump.
Wilders.
Johnson.
Milei.
What is it about this brand of politicians that inspires such terrible haircuts?
I know why Johnson was doing it but what's the excuse for the rest of them?
I'm guessing they're all going for some type of "man of the common folk" look.
In Johnson's case, I prefer to think of him as an incorrigible drunkard.
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Nov 23, 2023, 10:30 PMI'm guessing they're all going for some type of "man of the common folk" look.
In Johnson's case, I prefer to think of him as an incorrigible drunkard.
Johnson plays the role of loveable idiot cos he knows people will buy it.
He makes out that he's dopey and like a silly old granddad but in reality he is much smarter and more cunning than that.
I fucking hate the shitty haired bellend. Used to boil my piss when I saw/heard people making an affection out of him referring to him as 'Boris' or worse, 'BoJo' 🤢
I like Bojo because it sounds like Bozo.
The terrible haircuts is definitely an appeal to the working class, seeing as working class people also tend to have terrible haircuts.
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Nov 24, 2023, 06:26 AMThe terrible haircuts is definitely an appeal to the working class, seeing as working class people also tend to have terrible haircuts.
Do we?
Leaving aside the fascinating topic of haircuts, there is furthur aspect of global politics that we could consider: this is a glance at how the globe has divided out, in terms of free and repressed populations, after the upheavals of the Colonial Era and the Cold War Era:
(https://open.lib.umn.edu/app/uploads/sites/173/2015/07/db41093dbcc5cdb520484b829cdf82a6.jpg)
To me, there are two disappointing things with this picture:-
(i) the old Cold War division is essentially still there, largely thanks to Putin, I suspect
(ii) So many African countries, many of which were given a fleeting chance at democracy, have succumbed to the control of repressive regimes.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Nov 24, 2023, 02:19 PMDo we?
that's a dignified and to-the-point response to such a twatty comment 8)
Quote from: Marie Monday on Nov 25, 2023, 04:14 PMthat's a dignified and to-the-point response to such a twatty comment 8)
Not really, seeing as my haircut sucks too. GG NO RE.
"AFUERA" - Milei DESTROYS Argentina Politicians by Becoming President
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Nov 25, 2023, 06:07 PMNot really, seeing as my haircut sucks too. GG NO RE.
??
Why Finland is blaming Russia for a sudden influx of migrants on its eastern border (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/finland-blaming-russia-sudden-influx-migrants-eastern-border-105152414)
^ I think that report from the Finnish border, and the rise of Gert Wilders are two elements or reactions to what may come to define this era of global politics.
"Post-Cold War" is an ok label as far as it goes, but 30 years later surely we deserve a title that isn't just, "the time that came after an earlier time".
My suggestion is The Era of Climate Migration.
Worsening climate, fewer crops, more fighting over decent land and fresh water: these are the things that push people to relocate, and that is going to become more and more common in the coming decades, I suspect. Europe and the US are already feeling the pressure: little wonder that voters are deperately turning to leaders with comment-worthy hairstyles.
Geert Wilders | Populist parties will grow 'stronger & stronger' unless people's fears are addressed
Recorded 3 months prior to his win...
Argentina's Milei on Dollarization, Central Bank, China (Full interview in english)
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Nov 23, 2023, 10:39 PMJohnson plays the role of loveable idiot cos he knows people will buy it.
He makes out that he's dopey and like a silly old granddad but in reality he is much smarter and more cunning than that.
I fucking hate the shitty haired bellend. Used to boil my piss when I saw/heard people making an affection out of him referring to him as 'Boris' or worse, 'BoJo' 🤢
Still my favorite Boris Johnson moment:
Gavin Newsom had a similar moment a few weeks ago:
My favourite Johnson moment was the time he hid inside a freezer to avoid answering a question. Or the time he became the only PM in British history to dodge a TV debate in the rubup to an election.
Pooooosy
Thanks, Mindy ! That's a very clear look at some of the problems underlying the present troubles in the Middle East. It's a useful counter-balance to the 24-hour news coverage that, understandably enough, focus on the latest hostage to be released, the latest hospital to be attacked.
Another historic overview is this:-
Guernica Everyday
(https://e00-elmundo.uecdn.es/especiales/2013/cultura/picasso/img/cabecera_guernica.jpg)
Back in 1937, Picasso and the world were shocked by the bombardment suffered by Guernica - I'm assuming that it was one of the first times that hostilities spilled, at great speed, beyond the battlefield. Back in the old days, attrocities advanced, village by village, at the speed of horses or soldiers marching. But thanks to modern techniques, an army doesn't even have to capture the intervening territory: they can just deliver destruction from afar.
I suppose I'm making an obvious point because it's been happening that way ever since. But there's an equally obvious point that aggressors keep setting to one side: you'll never win the hearts and minds of people by bombing them into the ground. One of the main things you achieve is to make a life-long intractable enemy of the civilians you are attacking: it's a super-efficient way to radicalize civilians against you.
Police raid Moscow gay bars after Supreme Court LGBTQ+ ruling (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/police-raid-moscow-gay-bars-after-supreme-court-105327174)QuoteRussian security forces have raided gay clubs and bars across Moscow less than 48 hours after the country's top court banned what it called the "global LGBTQ+ movement" as an extremist organization.
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Dec 02, 2023, 02:03 PMPolice raid Moscow gay bars after Supreme Court LGBTQ+ ruling (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/police-raid-moscow-gay-bars-after-supreme-court-105327174)
"Russian authorities reject accusations of LGBTQ+ discrimination."
Yeah, right.
Russia's morally degenerating into the future.
Yeah. And there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this is the long term goal of the American right wing as well.
Quote from: Mindy on Dec 01, 2023, 03:18 PM
very interesting that you posted this Mindy. I was working on a thread about the current situation in the middle east and the potential for it to spill into a wider regional conflict. But I gave up on it.
Here's a few videos I'd recommend.
Skip to 3:35 to avoid the intro and embedded ad. That's where the real video starts.
skip the embedded ad which starts at 1:23 and ends at 3:30.
long ass post
The key points are basically that since the Hamas attack on Oct 7th, there has been a lot of speculation about the potential causes or motivations behind the attack. Although we don't know that Iran or any other power had any insight whatsoever into the attack, let alone anything to do with it, they do have some plausible motivations, as well as known ties to Hamas, though not nearly as close as Hezbollah.
So it's not like it's outside of either their means or even their usual modus operandi of how they project soft power in the region. As such, there has been a lot of speculation in certain circles from day 1 over Iran's potential involvement in the attack.
The most prominent theory is that the normalization agreement that was being pursued between Israel and Saudi Arabia presented a severe threat to Iran, and as such they sought to throw a monkey wrench in that process via Oct 7th.
It's worth pointing out that the normalization process is not so much a peace agreement, as is often presented. There hasn't been any state of war between Israel and Saudi Arabia for quite some time.
In fact, over the years, they have grown closer militarily and have formed a covert alliance against Iran, as a response to the nuclear deal that Obama signed with Iran.
Netanyahu was by far the biggest critic of and the biggest obstacle to America trying to reach any sort of diplomatic understanding with the regime in Iran. Frustrated with the Obama administration for pursuing that route, Israel and Saudi Arabia grew closer in ties.
Though not so much officially, because of the optics. The vast majority of the Saudi population is very much anti Israel, and even though they are a monarchy and so you would think they could do what they want, the amount of radical religious thinking that exists in Saudi Arabia has always presented an internal threat to their rule. So they need the optics of at least getting something for the Palestinians in exchange for officially recognizing Israel and normalizing relations.
The details on what those concessions were going to be are vague, though the general impression is that it would involve some amount of increased autonomy for the Palestianian Authority or PA, the government of the West Bank, along with freezing the expansion of settlements. So really not much of a game changer for the Palestians in the West Bank, let alone in Gaza, which seems to have been left out of the considerations altogether.
Although the Saudis did negotiate some wins for themselves, including a defense pact with the United States and assistance with developing nuclear energy.
Which kind of emphasizes the point. Historically, the idea was that broader recognition of Israel by the Arab and even broader Muslim world was a bargaining chip that was to be withheld until they resolved the situation with the Palestinians, the assumed framework being a two state solution.
By seeking to normalize relations with Saudi Arabia and some of the gulf states which was seen as a launching pad for broader recognition of Israel in other Muslim countries, Israel was attempting to bypass the idea of having to resolve the Palestinian issue before getting broader recognition in that part of the world. Their mechanism for doing so was citing their mutual opposition to Iran as grounds for a common cause. Netanyahu makes this clear here:
you'll notice this video was posted less than a month before the Hamas attack. so this was what Netanyahu was saying about the prospective deal at the time. The red marker speech he refers to in this video was made in 2012, while the Obama administration was still considering negotiations with Iran.
Another dimension to consider is Saudi Arabia. They are enemies with Iran for a number of reasons. The obvious recent one being the prolonged civil war in Yemen, in which Iran is funding Shia militants known as the Houthis. These same rebels not coincidentally have declared war on Israel in response to the latest Gaza war. Yet another reminder that Iran has many such vectors of soft power in the region.
Even though concerns about Iran have drawn Saudi Arabia and Israel closer together, the Saudis are not so cut and dry as far as being an ally. Just 8 months ago they enraged Netanyahu and his regime as well as spooked the US when they apparently decided to enter into a normalization process with Iran, in a deal brokered by China.
And yet, despite this apparent pivot, we ended up back in the situation in the months leading up to Oct 7th, with the United States apparently putting extensive effort into brokering a normalization deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel.
Part of the reason the Saudis might have been drifting out of Washington's orbit could have been Biden's early disposition to the regime. I think this segment from Mehdi Hasan's show where he was criticizing this deal highlights a few important details. This video is long but really I'm only referencing 2 specific parts for clues. Here's the video and below I will identify the points I want to cite.
The first is at the very beginning of the video, around 2:20 where Hasan shows Biden on the campaign trail condemning Mohammed bin Salman and the Saudi regime. He then notes the subsequent change of attitude Biden has taken, including fist bumping MBS and touting the prospects of the normalization process as a "mega-deal."
14:07-15:30 He highlights concerns about Saudi Arabia getting nuclear energy because it's not clear they don't want nuclear weapons, including a video of MBS saying that if Iran got a nuke, Saudi Arabia would have to get one.
So these details combine to give some insight on not only the change of heart MBS had, but also how this deal could have easily ended up leading to a nuclear arms race between Saudi Arabia and Iran.
Another interesting detail is that in addition to us having clear statements from both Netanyahu and MBS regarding their attitudes towards the normalization process in the run up to Oct 7th, we also have a similar statement the leader of Iran. This is him from Oct 3.
So the Saudis are "betting on the wrong horse," and Israel will "soon be eradicated by the Palestinians." Obviously that doesn't prove anything as far as knowing what was going to happen, since I'm pretty sure they are always predicting Israel's eradication but it's pretty clear what their stance towards the prospective deal is and where their interests lie. Not that this should be any mystery, considering that Netanyahu made it crystal clear that Iran was a major target of said alliance.
Whatever progress was made on pursuing a normalization deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel doesn't seem to matter now because with Israel bombing Gaza, Saudi Arabia naturally pivoted once more, not necessarily towards Iran though somewhat distancing themselves from Isreal.
In fact you might wonder why any of this matters if say Hamas carried out the attacks without consulting Iran, which seems likely enough considering there's no hard evidence to the contrary. It would still matter because since the war in Gaza has started, Iranian proxies have not only been striking US assets (not personnel in most cases, from what I understand) but Hezbollah, their main proxy has also been ratcheting up tensions with Israel. Regardless of how the conflict started, the longer it goes on the more opportunities there are for it to expand.
Iran has a number of vectors for soft power in the region, but Hezbollah are by far their biggest asset. Iran gives them 700m annually in military aid and they are the largest non state military in the world, operating out of the failed state of Lebanon which has no control over them. They have a massive arsenal of missiles, some of which are quite advanced. Israel cannot properly defend against an all out missile attack launched by Hezbollah. That's an inherent vulnerability Israel has had for some time and it's also a useful form of deterrence for direct attacks against Iran. If the John Boltons of the world got their way for example, and we pursued a policy of regime change in Iran as we did in Iraq, Iran could unleash hellfire on Israel in retaliation via Hezbollah.
For that reason, Iran isn't necessarily eager to have Hezbollah launch their missiles at Israel and turn this into a two front war, because then they lose that significant deterrence.
So far they haven't gotten significantly involved in the conflict, despite posturing that they might be willing to do so. By providing a sense of ambiguity as to their intentions, they keep Israel on alert which potentially deviates some of their attention from the war. But so far I think it's safe to say they've been a non factor.
That's a good thing, because if they did get involved, unlike with Hamas, Iran might be implicated by default in the eyes of US and Israel. Their ties are far too close to overlook that relationship.
This is why I gave up on this post lol cause I don't know how to not go on tangent after tangent on this topic.
Hamas officials join Nelson Mandela's family at ceremony marking 10th anniversary of his death (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hamas-officials-join-nelson-mandelas-family-ceremony-marking-105398291)
Quote from: Jwb on Dec 04, 2023, 07:53 PMThis is why I gave up on this post lol cause I don't know how to not go on tangent after tangent on this topic.
I haven't read your whole post, JwB, but can totally relate to the above comment. The situation in Israel/Palestine reminds me of a phrase the journalist P.J. O'Rourke used about another part of the world:
"The conflict that passeth all understanding."
Putin running for reelection, almost sure to win another 6-year term (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/putin-running-for-re-election-almost-sure-to-win-another-6-year-term/)
I wanted to respond to you. Jadis. But I figured I would move the discussion to this thread where it seems more relevant.
Quote from: jadis on Dec 06, 2023, 01:07 PMC'mon man... we can revive it. You, me and the pseudo-lesbian...
I'll consider it. Are there no rules at all over there now? Like for instance can I be openly anti Semitic or do I have to stick to cryptofash sealioning? :p
QuoteWhat are the US interests in the region though (apart from good relations with the owners of the oil pumps, who are gravitating toward Israel anyway)? It's not a particularly straightforward question. During the Cold War it was a matter of supporting a democracy (however troubled) against the alliance between a bunch of Arab dictatorships and the Soviets. I think some of it holds surprisingly true for today, for all that changed.
It is not a straightforward question but often it seems to be treated as such. As if the fact that we are close allies means that our interests are one in the same.
Because as I mentioned the support we give them is not based on some strict strategic analysis. It's largely based on the domestic sentiment in the US toward Israel, whether you happen to agree with that sentiment or not I would hope we could agree that is ultimately where our undying support stems from.
Now we can agree it's not straight forward in any region exactly what our interests in that region are. This is especially true in the middle east.
So it's subjective for example whether you think it was wise for Obama to pursue the JCPOA with Iran. But it's not subjective that Netanyahu fiercely opposed it and made his stance firmly known.
So here we can get a clear example where at the very least a US administration had an agenda that Israeli leadership clearly opposed, and rather than fall in line anyway and try to work with the US on pursuing what it thought was a smart path forward, Netanyahu openly antagonized Obama. Even though we are the clear benefactor in the relationship, all the aid we give doesn't translate to much on terms of actual leverage.
They don't for a second ask the question, how does our unbending stance towards Iran undermine what the United states is trying to do? That would admittedly be an absurd question to ask if you are living in Israel and convinced that Iran cannot be trusted or negotiated with.
On the flip side, invariably if you talk to zionists in the United states the idea is well they live over there and it's the only democracy in the middle east and blah blah blah. Anything and everything to make it all work out for Israel.
Then, when a US president tries to do something that an Israeli prime minister disagrees with, that prime Minister and his cohorts can make the rounds on American cable news accusing said President of being "bad for Israel" Which in American politics is really no less severe a charge than saying he's "bad for America." If anything the Israel line would get more traction.
So not only do we appear to not have much leverage based on all the aid we give, it appears to me they have much more of an ability to influence our path than we do theirs.
QuoteRe the Holocaust, let's not forget the expulsion of some 800,000 Jews from Arab and Muslim countries in the subsequent decades.
I didn't forget. I think that makes the argument that creating a Jewish state in Palestine is about keeping the jews safe even weaker.
It's not like the middle east has the same deep history of pogroms and antisemitism that Christian europe did. Clearly something changed in the 20th century.
QuoteBut I agree there's a paradox here: on October 7 Israel was clearly the least safe place in the world to be a Jew; and yet a month later Jewish friends in Montreal started talking about Aliyah, (the "I'm not antisemitic, just antizionist" mobs in Montreal are so fucking bad (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/charkaoui-politicians-jewish-groups-react-1.7022426)).
https://www.france24.com/en/video/20231116-montreal-jewish-community-in-shock-over-synagogue-firebombing-school-shootings
I don't want to say too much here but for many it's a matter of wishing to live without having to hide the signs of their Jewishness, which is becoming increasingly difficult in France especially (https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/french-jews-fleeing-country).
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/02/antisemitism-jews-france-emmanuel-macron-israel-hamas-war
I think the challenge is on us to try to understand the painful nature of anti-Jewish persecution.
I can get having a knee jerk reaction to cringe protesters. But let's get real. If someone in Montreal
is seriously considering moving to Israel right now out of a concern for safety, I think they've lost the plot.
I can get wanting a Jewish state just because you want to be the predominant in group and not just a marginalized minority. But I don't think that's at all unique to them. That's every nationalist movement.
QuoteRe "the experiment"... Antisemitism always morphs and adjusts. Once the Jews were hated for their religion, then for their "race" and now it's for their state (takes an idiot to think that antisemitism always comes dressed in SS uniform). We should remind ourselves it's the problem of the antisemites, not Jews.
I'm sorry but the perpetual victim narrative isn't working. They have a state now. They're in power. They're not the oppressed masses of a polish ghetto. They're a first world country. They are "the only democracy in the middle east." So that comes with certain expectations, believe it or not. And the fact is that they are now in the position to oppress millions of stateless Arabs. My sympathy is rapidly waning for "the most persecuted people on earth," and if anything telling people that you have to choose between either 1) loving Israel or 2) being an antisemite, the result of that sort of false dichotomy is just going to push people in the direction of antisemitism.
@Jwb I'll be responding gradually cause some of these topics are bottomless, and I take this shit seriously.
First of all, I suspect you're a Zionist yourself, in the sense that you don't wish to see the annihilation of the only Jewish state in the world. That's what that word means today https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/100047-its-news-5.html#post2235554
Quote from: jadis on Dec 14, 2023, 11:32 PM@Jwb I'll be responding gradually cause some of these topics are bottomless, and I take this shit seriously.
First of all, I suspect you're a Zionist yourself, in the sense that you don't wish to see the annihilation of the only Jewish state in the world. That's what that word means today https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/100047-its-news-5.html#post2235554
OK well I read the post on MB you linked and there's quite a bit in there to address, but I feel like since you said you're going to be responding gradually, I'm not going to go on another list of tangents based on that MB post. Rather, if there is a particular point in there you want a response to you can let me know and I'll oblige.
Now to answer your question.. I really don't want to get caught up in semantics but I feel like zionist implies a particular dedication to the idea of the necessity of a Jewish state. That is not an idea that particularly resonates with me.
I'm not in favor of getting rid of the state of Israel. But that's based on pragmatism. They live there and basically you are talking about potentially displacing millions of people. So that has nothing at all to do with the jews deserving a state in Palestine. Its the same basic level of human rights and consideration that should be granted to any people. Including the Palestinians.
Quote from: Jwb on Dec 15, 2023, 04:41 AMOK well I read the post on MB you linked and there's quite a bit in there to address, but I feel like since you said you're going to be responding gradually, I'm not going to go on another list of tangents based on that MB post. Rather, if there is a particular point in there you want a response to you can let me know and I'll oblige.
Now to answer your question.. I really don't want to get caught up in semantics but I feel like zionist implies a particular dedication to the idea of the necessity of a Jewish state. That is not an idea that particularly resonates with me.
I'm not in favor of getting rid of the state of Israel. But that's based on pragmatism. They live there and basically you are talking about potentially displacing millions of people. So that has nothing at all to do with the jews deserving a state in Palestine. Its the same basic level of human rights and consideration that should be granted to any people. Including the Palestinians.
Feel free to address the MB post, I'm interested in what you find contentios about it. I'm for keeping this discussion as free form as possible so that many different points can be raised and there's an exchange of information and opinion that allows one to reframe things and not get stuck in the same blind alleys.
Semantics is very important here though. The way the Z word is being bandied around smuggles in the sense that an opposition to it, something called "anti-Zionist", is a legitimate position. It's not. It's an eliminationist lunacy, either dressed up in a liberationist word salad or transparently jihadist. Actually, it's increasingly both at the same time (as people try to negotiate the gap between their Fanon quotes and the honest, no-nonsense jihadism of Hamas, illiterate mass murderers who don't give a shit about the woke alibi for killing Jews (https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1734299951771869541)). I get that it makes no sense to group you (or me, for that matter) under the same umbrella as Dersh or whoever is the most vocal and visible advocate of Israel in the US these days. Maybe we can talk about upper case and low case Z, dunno. But it's important to be aware of and NOT take on board the massive amount of accumulated bs weighing down on this word.
@Jwb I really don't think that it's fair to have the same degree of consideration for the Jewish people having a state as for any other group of people. Jewish people historically face a particular threat outside a country of their own, and taking that into account is important (the same goes for any other group of people in a similar position, but I don't think any other group faces as global and enduring a threat). Otherwise I agree with your opinion on the existence of Israel (anyone deserving a state is nonsense) but I do think jadis is right about the semantics thing
The state of Israel has the right to exist, yo. Think of all the crap Moses went through. :laughing:
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/765/157/333.jpg)
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 15, 2023, 04:35 PM@Jwb I really don't think that it's fair to have the same degree of consideration for the Jewish people having a state as for any other group of people. Jewish people historically face a particular threat outside a country of their own, and taking that into account is important (the same goes for any other group of people in a similar position, but I don't think any other group faces as global and enduring a threat). Otherwise I agree with your opinion on the existence of Israel (anyone deserving a state is nonsense) but I do think jadis is right about the semantics thing
You don't think it's fair, but try to understand what I was saying and tell me which part you actually disagree with:
@jadis told me that I was a zionist because I don't want to annihilate the state of Israel. I simply pointed out that me not wanting to annihilate Israel is not based on any dedication to the idea of the necessity of a Jewish homeland as a safe haven for Jews, but just based sheerly on the pragmatic circumstances of the matter. They exist now and millions of people live there, regardless of any of the historical circumstances. That's why I wouldn't support annihilating the state of Israel , and yes that's the same logic that applies in my eyes to virtually every regime on the planet. There's nothing unique about my stance on Israel, in that regard.
Also, sorry if this part sounds especially unfair, but the historical persecution of the jews literally has nothing to do with my stance, in this regard. Even if they had never faced any persecution throughout their entire history, that wouldn't change my position on whether the state of Israel should be annihilated.
Pointing out said persecution would be relevant if I bought into the argument that the persecution they historically faced made the creation of a Jewish homeland a necessity in order to provide a safe haven for Jews. I have already given my thoughts on why that argument doesn't convince me. Given that I don't adhere to this line of thinking, nor do I think the Jews' ancient cultural ties to the land entitled them to attempt to make a Jewish state there, it seems strange to insist that I am a zionist based merely on the lack of a desire to annihilate Israel.
Another aspect to consider is that technically, if there was a possible one state solution where it wasn't the state of Israel but was replaced with a representative democracy that gave full rights to all residents, assuming they would be peaceful about it, I certainly wouldn't oppose it. Obviously I realize that isn't really a pragmatically feasible scenario given the antipathy on both sides for one another, but again, this is a mere pragmatic consideration. Not an ideological principle.
Quote from: Jwb on Dec 16, 2023, 03:20 AMAnother aspect to consider is that technically, if there was a possible one state solution where it wasn't the state of Israel but was replaced with a representative democracy that gave full rights to all residents, assuming they would be peaceful about it, I certainly wouldn't oppose it. Obviously I realize that isn't really a pragmatically feasible scenario given the antipathy on both sides for one another, but again, this is a mere pragmatic consideration. Not an ideological principle.
Israel doesn't seem to believe in the idea of a melting pot democracy, and considering the part of the world they occupy it isn't that hard to understand why they feel that way. It would be nice to think that they could become a real "representative democracy" at some point in the not-so-distant future though.
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 16, 2023, 01:05 AM(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/765/157/333.jpg)
Worst party ever.
Quote from: jadis on Dec 15, 2023, 01:42 PMFeel free to address the MB post, I'm interested in what you find contentios about it. I'm for keeping this discussion as free form as possible so that many different points can be raised and there's an exchange of information and opinion that allows one to reframe things and not get stuck in the same blind alleys.
Semantics is very important here though. The way the Z word is being bandied around smuggles in the sense that an opposition to it, something called "anti-Zionist", is a legitimate position. It's not. It's an eliminationist lunacy, either dressed up in a liberationist word salad or transparently jihadist. Actually, it's increasingly both at the same time (as people try to negotiate the gap between their Fanon quotes and the honest, no-nonsense jihadism of Hamas, illiterate mass murderers who don't give a shit about the woke alibi for killing Jews (https://twitter.com/amjadt25/status/1734299951771869541)). I get that it makes no sense to group you (or me, for that matter) under the same umbrella as Dersh or whoever is the most vocal and visible advocate of Israel in the US these days. Maybe we can talk about upper case and low case Z, dunno. But it's important to be aware of and NOT take on board the massive amount of accumulated bs weighing down on this word.
I've frequently heard people say the anti-zionist line and my interpretation is that the way the term is understood in colloquial use is that zionist/anti-zionist are just used interchangeably with terms like pro-israel and pro-palestine. The vast majority of people who I've heard say they were against zionism would nonetheless agree with me that Israel shouldn't be annihilated.
You can argue these terms are being widely misused, and frankly it seems like you and I don't even see eye to eye on how the term should be used, but I think that potential disagreement is far from the top of the list of the more meaningful and interesting differences we probably have. Which is why I said the thing about not getting bogged down in semantics. Not because I don't think it's important at all, but to a certain extent I do think these labels are more likely to serve as a distraction from the more meaningful discourse.
However, you do seem to suggest it's not just a matter of misuse but some more deliberate attempt to legitimize genocidal thinking. That could be an interesting angle if you could actually substantiate it. But other than that I find the question of who is or isn't a zionist much less worthy of attention than the basic question of what is to be done.
Quote from: Jwb on Dec 16, 2023, 03:20 AMYou don't think it's fair, but try to understand what I was saying and tell me which part you actually disagree with:
@jadis told me that I was a zionist because I don't want to annihilate the state of Israel. I simply pointed out that me not wanting to annihilate Israel is not based on any dedication to the idea of the necessity of a Jewish homeland as a safe haven for Jews, but just based sheerly on the pragmatic circumstances of the matter. They exist now and millions of people live there, regardless of any of the historical circumstances. That's why I wouldn't support annihilating the state of Israel , and yes that's the same logic that applies in my eyes to virtually every regime on the planet. There's nothing unique about my stance on Israel, in that regard.
Also, sorry if this part sounds especially unfair, but the historical persecution of the jews literally has nothing to do with my stance, in this regard. Even if they had never faced any persecution throughout their entire history, that wouldn't change my position on whether the state of Israel should be annihilated.
Pointing out said persecution would be relevant if I bought into the argument that the persecution they historically faced made the creation of a Jewish homeland a necessity in order to provide a safe haven for Jews. I have already given my thoughts on why that argument doesn't convince me. Given that I don't adhere to this line of thinking, nor do I think the Jews' ancient cultural ties to the land entitled them to attempt to make a Jewish state there, it seems strange to insist that I am a zionist based merely on the lack of a desire to annihilate Israel.
Another aspect to consider is that technically, if there was a possible one state solution where it wasn't the state of Israel but was replaced with a representative democracy that gave full rights to all residents, assuming they would be peaceful about it, I certainly wouldn't oppose it. Obviously I realize that isn't really a pragmatically feasible scenario given the antipathy on both sides for one another, but again, this is a mere pragmatic consideration. Not an ideological principle.
I don't really want to debate but suffice to say the use of the word anti-zionist is manipulated by antisemites with the goal of having it seem like everyone who doesnt believe in the traditional religious jewish homeland is on their side and having their own position seem acceptable. That means we should be careful with it, and 'anti' also implies something far less neutral than you are. Anyway I'm sure jadis knows more about that than I do. I haven't followed the discussion but I'd genuinely like to read your thoughts on why a Jewish state is not strongly desirable (if not necessary) for their safety and stability
QuoteI can get having a knee jerk reaction to cringe protesters. But let's get real. If someone in Montreal
is seriously considering moving to Israel right now out of a concern for safety, I think they've lost the plot.
How about Jews in Melbourne? Does a
spike in antisemitic abuse by 738 percent (https://www.news.com.au/national/australian-jews-suffer-738-per-cent-spike-in-antisemitic-abuse/news-story/33ed1f60ff568d31ce399b325bbc03a2) entitle you to seriously consider moving to Israel or are you still deluded if you do?
QuoteECAJ co-CEO Alex Ryvchin said Jewish families were now being forced to have "difficult conversations" about their place in Australia.
"Parents are speaking to their children about not disclosing their Jewishness in public, about hiding Jewish attire and symbols," he said.
Quote from: jadis on Dec 16, 2023, 02:55 PMHow about Jews in Melbourne? Does a spike in antisemitic abuse by 738 percent (https://www.news.com.au/national/australian-jews-suffer-738-per-cent-spike-in-antisemitic-abuse/news-story/33ed1f60ff568d31ce399b325bbc03a2) entitle you to seriously consider moving to Israel or are you still deluded if you do?
You would have to break it down for me, cause I don't know whether Melbourne is safer for Jews than Israel is. A 738 percent spike doesn't quite tell me whether Melbourne is safer than Israel or not.
If Israel is safer than Melbourne is, then either its really not that dangerous in Israel at all, or it is way more dangerous in Melbourne than I expected. Which one do you think it is?
The issue is whether you feel safe as a visibly Jewish person or whether you move around in the expectation of harassment that can escalate to violence. The latter has been the soul-destroying reality of Jews in certain parts of France and Belgium (to speak only of the parts of Europe I'm somewhat familiar with, read about and know people who fled them) since the second intifada. It appears that since October 7 this phenomenon has spread elsewhere in the West.
Whatever else is true of Israel, you can be visibly Jewish here.
t's also ironic that you are citing recent antisemitic spikes which are presumably based largely on backlash towards Israel as evidence in favor of the view that the existence of Israel makes Jews safer. Js lol
Quote from: jadis on Dec 16, 2023, 03:34 PMThe issue is whether you feel safe as a visibly Jewish person or whether you move around in the expectation of harassment that can escalate to violence. The latter has been the soul-destroying reality of Jews in certain parts of France and Belgium (to speak only of the parts of Europe I'm somewhat familiar with, read about and know people who fled them) since the second intifada. It appears that since October 7 this phenomenon has spread elsewhere in the West.
Whatever else is true of Israel, you can be visibly Jewish here.
You can be visibly Jewish in America. Minus the rockets. Plus the AR-15s to defend yourself.
That a people hated for their religion and for their race, for their supposed influence on world affairs and for their marginality, for their economical activity and for their intellectualism, their taste for abstraction and their dangerous sexuality etc etc would also be hated for their state with a burning passion!
You are smart enough to see through a pile of bs as transparent as this if it was on any other issue, but that you don't is the least surprising thing in the world. Some of literally the smartest people in the history of the world had trouble thinking through this one, not just billions of retards.
Just a little food for thought. Some good points along the lines of what jadis is talking about.
@jadis I would be much more likely to be convinced if you tried making an actual argument. So far you really haven't addressed any point I do make, so I don't think you've earned the right to try patronizing me just yet.
I simply won't be convinced by your pearl clutching over antisemitism. Try a new approach. Maybe one that doesn't grant a state carte Blanche to do whatever they want, shielded by an iron dome of antisemitism accusations.
Yeah I don't feel like trying to convince you of anything.
You seem to regard the insane rise in antisemitism as a natural response to a conflict in a faraway country rather than evidence of a civilizational disease.
I find it's concerning that according to the new Harvard poll two thirds of US Zoomers believe this
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBe3ZZYWkAEuGe6?format=png&name=small)
But I'm also too familiar with the rhetoric — where Israel is painted as the global summum malum, while concern about antisemitism is viewed as evidence that those concerned are up to something — that brought us here to be surprised by it. I don't think you can combat a hate as deeply ingrained with good arguments and concessions that the state of Israel is far from perfect.
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 17, 2023, 12:30 AMJust a little food for thought. Some good points along the lines of what jadis is talking about.
I really liked this one. Bits reminded me of the best article written on the heels of October 7 (and one of the best I've ever read on Israel-Palestine) https://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/israel-zionism/2023/11/ecstasy-and-amnesia-in-the-gaza-strip/
Quote from: jadis on Dec 17, 2023, 10:39 AMYeah I don't feel like trying to convince you of anything.
You seem to regard the insane rise in antisemitism as a natural response to a conflict in a faraway country rather than evidence of a civilizational disease.
I find it's concerning that according to the new Harvard poll two thirds of US Zoomers believe this
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBe3ZZYWkAEuGe6?format=png&name=small)
But I'm also too familiar with the rhetoric — where Israel is painted as the global summum malum, while concern about antisemitism is viewed as evidence that those concerned are up to something — that brought us here to be surprised by it. I don't think you can combat a hate as deeply ingrained with good arguments and concessions that the state of Israel is far from perfect.
That's such a stupid mis leading poll, they should have said Zionists and not Jews. They are just looking for reasons for people to be antisemitic when most people are just against Zionists in general the ones in power not your average jew off the street.
If there's one thing railing against "Zionists" is known for it's never spilling over into abuse of Jews, eh?
The poll shows both how loosely college students grasp these issues (you are no better), and how fraught all those terms are. When you obsessively demonize the only Jewish state in the world and believe that posters of kidnapped Israeli babies are "Zionist propaganda" I don't see how the barrier between hating imaginary Zionists and harming real Jews doesn't get blown the fuck up. It does, every time.
I always say that we're all Zionists as a way of trying to get the sting out of this word. But it's a quixotic effort when there's a huge weight of accumulated wisdom and mute prejudice weighing down on every single aspect of this topic.
I'm going to walk the fuck out of this conversation because I can already tell by your tone that you are the type of person that equates someone being pro-Palestinian with being pro- Hamas.
Bye have fun in this thread. I'm out.
Aside from people getting their brain signals mixed up and confusing the actions of the state of Israel with jewish people in general, why would US Americans not like Jews?
Is it a christian thing?
Supporting the Palestinian cause vs supporting Hamas is like the Jew/Zionist thing: a perfectly viable distinction until shit gets real.
The irony of a Scandinavian asking why would those weird racist Americans not like Jews.
Quote from: jadis on Dec 17, 2023, 12:54 PMThe irony of a Scandinavian asking why would those weird racist Americans not like Jews.
Seeing as I'm such a dumb yokel, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain this comment.
Why is it ironic that a Scandinavian would ask about what motivates anti-Semitism in the US?
Quote from: Guybrush on Dec 17, 2023, 12:49 PMAside from people getting their brain signals mixed up and confusing the actions of the state of Israel with jewish people in general, why would US Americans not like Jews?
Is it a christian thing?
Some of it is the white Christians, some of it is the African-American community and a few other places. The idea is that major financial institutions like BlackRock and organizations like Disney, as well as major film studios, favor Jewish leadership over people from other kinds of backgrounds. So instead of white supremacy its like a form of systemic Jewish supremacy that emphasizes control over wealth in these particular industries (finance and entertainment) and presumably locks out people of color (and also locks out God-fearing Christians) from those opportunities.
Quote from: jadis on Dec 17, 2023, 10:39 AMYeah I don't feel like trying to convince you of anything.
You seem to regard the insane rise in antisemitism as a natural response to a conflict in a faraway country rather than evidence of a civilizational disease.
I find it's concerning that according to the new Harvard poll two thirds of US Zoomers believe this
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GBe3ZZYWkAEuGe6?format=png&name=small)
But I'm also too familiar with the rhetoric — where Israel is painted as the global summum malum, while concern about antisemitism is viewed as evidence that those concerned are up to something — that brought us here to be surprised by it. I don't think you can combat a hate as deeply ingrained with good arguments and concessions that the state of Israel is far from perfect.
You really think it's more effective to just endlessly play the victim card? It's incredibly frustrating. I'm not going to even look at whatever chart it is or anything else that you post until you start treating this convo like a 2 way street.
It seems to me that you are interested in trying to convince me. You are just either unwilling to risk getting in an actual argument with me where it's not just you lecturing me like one of your students, or maybe you think the discussion will get heated and cause animosity, or maybe you simply realize in the back of your mind that you actually don't have a satisfactory response.
It certainly doesn't make sense for you to in one post try to change my mind with the cheap tactic of "you're too smart for this" and then in the next post act disinterested in changing my mind. I'm frustrated more by the condescension combined with the lack of an attempt to make a real argument than anything else
Also, I would think we are both smart enough to realize neither of us are changing each other's minds. Probably on any topic.
The point of these discussions is to air out arguments on both sides. For the sheer sake of doing so. That's all it's ever been.
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 16, 2023, 12:39 PMI don't really want to debate but suffice to say the use of the word anti-zionist is manipulated by antisemites with the goal of having it seem like everyone who doesnt believe in the traditional religious jewish homeland is on their side and having their own position seem acceptable. That means we should be careful with it, and 'anti' also implies something far less neutral than you are. Anyway I'm sure jadis knows more about that than I do. I haven't followed the discussion but I'd genuinely like to read your thoughts on why a Jewish state is not strongly desirable (if not necessary) for their safety and stability
I forgot to respond to this. I had already addressed this point in a previous post which I assumed was in this thread, but I think it was actually in the other thread before I moved the discussion over here.
Basically, I acknowledge that in let's say Theodor Herzl's day, it could have seemed like a compelling argument that the only way Jews would be safe was through a nation state of their own. Herzl in some ways never got to see how correctly placed his fears were, as he died 40 years before the holocaust happened.
But Europe is a different place than it was 100 years ago. And so is the United states. That's not to say antisemitism isn't an issue in these societies, but it's not nearly on the level that it used to be. And liberal democracies where people are supposed to share equal rights are the favored structure. These societies are supposed to be safe for all groups, including jews. I think that is largely the case, and I think it's better to invest in structures like these that are open ended and capable of theoretically absorbing immigrants from any population, as opposed to investing in nationalist projects which then lead to further division and animosity, particularly in the region where you set this up.
It's funny to imagine we are talking about a group that supposedly faces opposition every where they go, that we're going to import them to a strip of land in one of the most tumultuous regions in the world and let them try to work on building a state there, while there's already people living there who view you as foreigners. I don't think this would work out well with any group, but if you're going to argue that jews are especially hated then this makes that prospect even more dubious.
We often hear about, and you sort of yourself referred to, the almost universal quality of antisemitism. How it's global and enduring. I think there's reasons for this perception, many of which are based in Jewish tradition, but that it is somewhat over simplified. Sometimes I even hear this type of talking point from apparent anti-semites, who say something along the lines of no matter where these people go they end up causing problems.
The fact is, jews are a somewhat insular group and that has often been a source of alienation and distrust, so they did get persecuted here and there by different groups prior to Christianity. They also lived in a tumultuous part of the world. Having a state where they had one was even in ancient times a vulnerability that lead to multiple conquests and periods of exile.
But with that being said, the lions share of antisemitism can attributed to Christian europe. It's not nearly as deep and mysterious as some make it seem. They were the people who were accused of killing Christ.
The scientific antisemitism of the 19th century just grew out of what was an long standing animosity for Jews in Europe, and even the rise of rabid antisemitism in the middle east in the 20th century is in part attributed to nazi propaganda being spread to that region of the world, in combination with the mass migration of jews to Palestine and subsequent creation of Israel.
So I don't think any of this has actually made jews safer. I think that is a zionist myth, and frankly one that you don't even need to tell in order to make the argument that Israel has a right to defend itself and not be annihilated. You can easily make that argument based purely on the sovereignty that is afforded to any nation state. So I think this is a distraction.
Ultimately I would really like it if we didn't solely focus on antisemites or the supposed genocidal undertones to terms like anti-zionist, if we actually talk about what is happening right now in Israel. Because the only plausible genocide scenario I can see is the Israelis ethnically cleansing Gaza.
Quote from: Guybrush on Dec 17, 2023, 01:09 PMSeeing as I'm such a dumb yokel, I'd appreciate it if you'd explain this comment.
Why is it ironic that a Scandinavian would ask about what motivates anti-Semitism in the US?
idk about scandinavians specifically but you have to see that asking what motivates antisemitism anywhere is really very naive
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 17, 2023, 07:58 PMidk about scandinavians specifically but you have to see that asking what motivates antisemitism anywhere is really very naive
Jadis posts a chart that says 67% of what I assume represent US citizens aged 18 to 24 describe Jews, as a class, as oppressors.
Maybe I am naive for not immediately understanding why this is. I guess I'm naive, then.
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Dec 17, 2023, 03:11 PMSome of it is the white Christians, some of it is the African-American community and a few other places. The idea is that major financial institutions like BlackRock and organizations like Disney, as well as major film studios, favor Jewish leadership over people from other kinds of backgrounds. So instead of white supremacy its like a form of systemic Jewish supremacy that emphasizes control over wealth in these particular industries (finance and entertainment) and presumably locks out people of color (and also locks out God-fearing Christians) from those opportunities.
Thanks, friend 👌
Quote from: Guybrush on Dec 17, 2023, 08:49 PMJadis posts a chart that says 67% of what I assume represent US citizens aged 18 to 24 describe Jews, as a class, as oppressors.
Maybe I am naive for not immediately understanding why this is. I guess I'm naive, then.
well, you were asking why Americans don't like jews and given that they have received hatred from every population they have shared a country with, I felt it was a naive question. If it's specifically about why jews are considered oppressors, that's also always been a way in which antisemitism has manifested and been justified, and it always keeps popping up in new variations, so not much cause for surprise either. I suspect that it's worse among young people for two reasons: 1. young people are generally more left wing so they don't like the Israeli government and exremely rich people (and are too naive to recognise the 'jews are rich' claim for what it is) 2. this young generation has grown up at a time when the aftershock of the holocaust has died out (and its last survivors are disappearing) and I think the realisation of the seriousness of antisemitism is dwindling, but I may be overthinking there
Not to say our history has been perfect but again I think you are painting with a broad brush saying every country that has interacted with jews has had the same dynamic. There are certainly better and worse places historically for Jews to live, as well as better and worse time periods. I think America has not persecuted jews as much as certain European countries by a wide margin. America tended to aim more of its mob violence towards the black population.
In regard to the poll, there's a common perception of jews as the sort of man behind the red curtain pulling the strings. They tend to be high iq on average and have a culture that has always valued scholarly pursuits. As such they naturally have played a sort of outsized role in many domains, which is perfect conspiracy fodder for those with that mindset.
oh sure I'm not saying their treatment has been equally bad everywhere, but some level of hate and oppressor/invisible power conspiracy seems to be quite universal
Yes but that doesn't automatically explain why it is naive to be surprised by such a high percentage of young Americans believing that. America is not a rabidly antisemitic society nor does it have a history of being so. Not to mention that America, and particularly American Christians, as Netanyahu himself notes, are the biggest source of financial and ideological support for Israel worldwide.
So actually, no. Tore wasn't being naive by being surprised by such a stat. Very likely it has directly to do with all of the carnage that has happened in Gaza since Oct 7. Notice that the older you get in the poll, the less likely you are to believe the proposition. That tracks pretty well with how different age demos in this country feel about Israel.
Thanks
@Jwb I know about being scapegoats for Jesus' murder, being money lenders in a time when christians weren't allowed to, conspiracy theories blossoming in WW2 Germany and elsewhere, but I'm definitely surprised if anti-semitism is increasing - possibly by a lot - in the younger demographic today. Of course there's the ongoing conflict, but it might be fueled by rhetoric outside of that and it's worth poking around in. I'm sure some sociologists are trying to do just that.
I'm asking about the US because Jadis brought up numbers from the US. I don't know if a current trend with anti-semitism among young people is a universal trend for universal reasons, though it might be.
Quote from: Jwb on Dec 18, 2023, 02:31 AMYes but that doesn't automatically explain why it is naive to be surprised by such a high percentage of young Americans believing that. America is not a rabidly antisemitic society nor does it have a history of being so. Not to mention that America, and particularly American Christians, as Netanyahu himself notes, are the biggest source of financial and ideological support for Israel worldwide.
So actually, no. Tore wasn't being naive by being surprised by such a stat. Very likely it has directly to do with all of the carnage that has happened in Gaza since Oct 7. Notice that the older you get in the poll, the less likely you are to believe the proposition. That tracks pretty well with how different age demos in this country feel about Israel.
yeah but that wasn't his initial question and I was reacting to that
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 18, 2023, 10:03 AMyeah but that wasn't his initial question and I was reacting to that
If you were a bit more generous in your assumptions, you might assume I was writing in reply to points brought up during the discussion. Sometimes - or even usually - I simply don't have time to write a carefully worded post that noone can misinterpret. A basic assumption that I'm following the thread is then nice.
This environment where my question is dismissed as ironic because it comes from a Scandinavian and then dismissed as naive, what does that achieve? I don't think it helps create an environment where meaningful discussion can actually flourish. Instead, you end up wasting energy on things which are completely besides what you were actually interested in, like this post and the one I wrote before it.
It's a big part why I have little taste for these discussions.
Quote from: Guybrush on Dec 18, 2023, 12:10 PMIf you were a bit more generous in your assumptions, you might assume I was writing in reply to points brought up during the discussion. Sometimes - or even usually - I simply don't have time to write a carefully worded post that noone can misinterpret. A basic assumption that I'm following the thread is then nice.
This environment where my question is dismissed as ironic because it comes from a Scandinavian and then dismissed as naive, what does that achieve? I don't think it helps create an environment where meaningful discussion can actually flourish. Instead, you end up wasting energy on things which are completely besides what you were actually interested in, like this post and the one I wrote before it.
It's a big part why I have little taste for these discussions.
The bolded is exactly why political discussions nowadays suck and people can't even be civil. They are either too up their own butt and feel superior about themselves to just have a general discussion OR the tribalism is so real that they are blinded by with team/talking points they subscribe to and just end up resorting to slinging insults at the other side.
nah dude pointing out that something is naive is hardly uncivil. I still think even in its most generous interpretation the question was a bit naive, and a face-value interpretation followed the disussion guybrush was replying to perfectly well. I see nothing weird about having interpreted it that way. I know I sometimes get impatient or dismissive in discussions, I'll take your point on that, but 1. I'm used to posting MB spicy style but already water it down here, I honestly don't think it's that bad and 2. I'm tired and upset about the Israel/Palestine conflict so patience is not my greatest virtue there
It's not uncivil to call something naive, if it actually is naive.
I interpreted tore's question to be why the stats were so high and what the source of that was. Not that he is bewildered by the mere concept of antisemitism existing. I still say that's really not at all a naive question and in order to say that it is you have to believe that there is an obvious reason why this poll came out as it did. To me it's not obvious at all. I gave my best guess but I don't think any of us really know for sure what drove that one particular poll result.
Well I don't entirely agree about the obviousness (what with general antisemitism, conspiracies about rich jew bankers, the current developments in Israel, and the (in general good) concern of young left wing people with colonialism) and I didn't interpret it quite like that, but agree to disagree
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 18, 2023, 08:45 PMnah dude pointing out that something is naive is hardly uncivil. I still think even in its most generous interpretation the question was a bit naive, and a face-value interpretation followed the disussion guybrush was replying to perfectly well. I see nothing weird about having interpreted it that way. I know I sometimes get impatient or dismissive in discussions, I'll take your point on that, but 1. I'm used to posting MB spicy style but already water it down here, I honestly don't think it's that bad and 2. I'm tired and upset about the Israel/Palestine conflict so patience is not my greatest virtue there
Okay I get the last statement you made but instead of just calling him naive, you could have just answered the question or if you didn't feel like answering the question then you didn't need to post at all. It's just weird to drop it to say "ha ha you are a naive person for asking a question" then kind of buzz off without answering said question.
If it seems like I'm being defensive, it's because I'm a curious person and I ask questions when I don't know/understand something. I've had people do what you do or just like be super dismissive and insulting instead of answering the simple question.
I subscribe to the school of thought that they are no dumb questions. Just questions that have gone unanswered. No matter how simple the question is, I would answer it for the person but that's just me and I don't expect me out of others.
Team Marie.
My actions are being called weird, how uncivil! Mods!
But seriously, 'haha you're being naive' was not at all the tone of my post. And the was you describe the context is also not right
that might not have been your intention for the post but that's definitely how it came off to me. I don't want to speak for anyone else besides myself but it very much screamed that.
You can have dissenting opinions. I'm not trying to say we have to be all care bear over here but your initial naive post didn't really add anything to the discussion. All you had to do was answer his question or don't post anything at all.
Mad weirdo vibes.
Mate guybrush was wondering why jadis was being so sarcastic and I just pointed out that I thought his question was naive as a possible explanation for that
(https://imgur.com/9rxFKcs.jpg)
okay got it. I'll let this go.
:beer: cheers for putting up with my silly mood
Next time either post or don't, Marie. That's where you went wrong. You can either do it or not do it, but it came across to me like you did but didn't.
Quote from: Marie Monday on Dec 19, 2023, 11:48 AMMate guybrush was wondering why jadis was being so sarcastic and I just pointed out that I thought his question was naive as a possible explanation for that
(https://imgur.com/9rxFKcs.jpg)
the reason he got so sarcastic is because the only tools in the ziomist toolbelt are sarcasm, antisemitism accusations and other such Jewish mind tricks.
Love ya jadis. No hard feelings pal. :p
Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Dec 19, 2023, 06:02 PMNext time either post or don't, Marie. That's where you went wrong. You can either do it or not do it, but it came across to me like you did but didn't.
(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.db4d71fdd5f31beab6f9fa7ad1d2df11?rik=NDt%2fqLjR2p%2f4hA&riu=http%3a%2f%2fdontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com%2f.a%2f6a00d8345157c669e201b7c8df8f20970b-800wi&ehk=%2b8%2b3sKSncwD0cfYo6BkFJOFaQBmoQKZcQGl7NGsn5NQ%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
I feel like we have run this mini argument into the ground guys.
Time to get back to the issue at hand. Raise your hand if you are confident Israel isn't going to end up ethnically cleansing the Gaza strip.
So far they aren't giving much in the way of indicating who it is they want to take over Gaza, after they finish Hamas off (assuming that they manage to do so). That's not exactly the most hopeful sign for their long term prospects.
So I got into a discussion with this lady that's super Pro-Israel and I wanted to understand and have her explain to me what's the end game. I told her that even if they eliminated every single Hamas solider. There would create a void that would end up being filled by another group. Also while they are trying to wipe out every single Hamas solider the collateral damage of innocent Israelis AND Palestines will continue to rise.
Quote from: Guybrush on Dec 18, 2023, 08:41 AMThanks @Jwb
I know about being scapegoats for Jesus' murder, being money lenders in a time when christians weren't allowed to, conspiracy theories blossoming in WW2 Germany and elsewhere, but I'm definitely surprised if anti-semitism is increasing - possibly by a lot - in the younger demographic today. Of course there's the ongoing conflict, but it might be fueled by rhetoric outside of that and it's worth poking around in. I'm sure some sociologists are trying to do just that.
I'm asking about the US because Jadis brought up numbers from the US. I don't know if a current trend with anti-semitism among young people is a universal trend for universal reasons, though it might be.
Interesting points you bring up, Guybrush. As you say, it IS worth poking around in.
I like watching Thomas Sowell on YT, and he opined that Jews are probably disliked because they are "successful". Well they may well be (along with other successful non-Jewish peeps), and one must ask oneself if it is fueled purely by monetary jealousy, or other spiritual and cultural drivers upon which the West currently pulsates?
I'm christian (not very practising mind you) and I'm sure I partook in my school years in banter about the stingy long noses, whilst they fought back with "why wasn't Jesus born in Ireland?, because they couldn't find a virgin and three wise men", that sort of thing.
EDIT: There are occasional tensions in SW France in the cities, but I'm still convinced they are down to socio-economic factors, not religious or cultural.
Quote from: Saulaac on Dec 20, 2023, 01:06 AMwhilst they fought back with "why wasn't Jesus born in Ireland?, because they couldn't find a virgin and three wise men", that sort of thing.
Haven't heard that in a long time but lolol.
Speaking of the WEF...
'The Western world is in danger': Argentina's Milei, a self-described 'anarcho-capitalist,' urges Davos elite to reject socialism (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/01/17/argentina-president-javier-milei-urges-davos-elite-to-reject-socialism.html)QuoteArgentina's president, Javier Milei, on Wednesday called on business and political leaders to reject socialism and instead embrace "free enterprise capitalism" to bring an end to world poverty.
"Today, I'm here to tell you that the Western world is in danger," Milei said in a special address at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, according to a translation.
"And it is in danger because those who are supposed to have to defend the values of the West are co-opted by a vision of the world that inexorably leads to socialism, and thereby to poverty," he added.
I wanted to respond to this post from jadis like a couple weeks ago in the 2024 primary thread but it seems like a discussion more fit for this thread. So I'll reply in here.
Quote from: jadis on Jan 26, 2024, 08:11 PMBasically I think Rettig Gur answers most of this. The normalization with the Gulf states is not just a strategic alliance against Iran, which it obviously is. It is also and more crucially a statement by the Gulf elites that the Muslim world doesn't have to be stuck in its retarded resentment against Israel. That they are better than that.
I too used to think that the campaign to subsume the Palestinian issue under Iran was disingenuous (and to the extent it's coming from Netanyahu it kinda is*). But as I see it today, Palestinians are merely the tip of the spear of Arab/Muslim resentment against the existence of a Jewish state: once the Palestinians decide that their main goal is acquiring a state for themselves, as opposed to annihilating the Jewish one, resolving the territorial issue shouldn't be too difficult. On these points I recommend the work of Shany Mor and Hussein Mansour Aboubakr. Specifically, this is the best and most lucid thing (https://archive.md/G5rAX) I've ever read on this conflict. If you don't have the energy to read it, he lays out his argument here (https://youtu.be/hxgjAtVX_mM?si=DoB1XZ98z19vy0GR). I like this essay so much I also listened to him discussing it with Rettig Gur and Mansour Aboubakr on this podcast (https://podcasts.apple.com/il/podcast/the-tikvah-podcast/id921756215?i=1000636366203). Obviously one doesn't have to agree with everything or anything they say but that's what makes sense to me today.
*What I mean here is that this man doesn't have Israel's best interest at heart. The thing with Obama over the Iran deal for example: if he cared about Israel as opposed to appearing big dicked to his base, he would've gotten something tangible from the Americans once it was clear that the deal is going to be signed. For example, to get Iran out of Syria, something along these lines. He could've gotten some concessions. Instead he went for optics and severely compromised Israel's standing with Democrats.
Yeah so I listened to your first link. I found it interesting but fundamentally it doest't change my calculus at all.
First off I'm not nearly as convinced as he is that the Saudis are in fact "better than that." As I have detailed they have ample reasons for being motivated to pursue military and economic relations with Israel. I think these reasons are much more what is at play than any sort of serious ideological commitment on the part of the Saudi regime.
What's kind of funny is that we started this conversation talking about Bidens legacy in the Middle East. Biden started his presidency by taking a uniquely hostile tone with MBS and the Saudi government, which had just gotten itself into hot water for all the world to see when they murdered and dismembered a famous US based journalist who had been critical of the Saudis. Biden responded by calling them a repugnant regime and indicating that he wants to take a tougher stance with them and stop lending so much undue legitimacy to what is truly a backward regime. Fast forward 2 years later and we're literally in negotiations with them to possibly assist them along the path to developing nuclear energy (which we all know they would never use for anything else) as one of the conditions for the normalization process with Israel.
So which Biden was right about the Saudis? The one who called them a repugnant regime or the one who reluctantly came to terms with their vital strategic role in what he thought would be a foreign policy W? I would say that they were both right. Saudi Arabia is in fact a key strategic ally. They're also the kind of savage desert monarchy that not only holds mass public executions via beheading, for certain heinous sex crimes they crucify the beheaded corpse. Which is always a good sign that a society is forward thinking and looking to embrace modernity.
In addition to this, not only 8 months prior to Oct 7 they were entertaining a possible deal with Iran to normalize relations, brokered by China, much to the chagrin of both the US and Israel. Because ultimately they are interested in winding down the brutal and failed war effort in Yemen. If a peace with Iran were possible the Saudis wouldn't necessarily rule it out. But the extent to which they've been driven into Israel's arms is largely contingent on the extent to which they become convinced that such a solution isn't really available. That's my assessment of the situation.
Might the Abraham accords and the normalization process go on anyway? Sure. It wouldn't be that surprising, let's put it that way. But even so I see it once again more as an emerging alliance against Iran than a path to peace or a new Middle East or anything of the sort. We can already see what the new Middle East looks like and it's giving a lot of old Middle East vibes atm.
Former rebel leader arrives in Haiti's capital as protests against prime minister gain momentum (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/former-rebel-leader-arrives-haitis-capital-protests-prime-106998046)QuoteGuy Philippe — who played a key role in the 2004 rebellion against former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide — was briefly spotted in the upscale community of Pétionville in Port-au-Prince, where he shook hands with Haitians at a park in front of a police station before he left. It wasn't immediately clear where Philippe was going, but dozens of motorcycle drivers, clearly his supporters, tried to track him down across streets blocked by burning tires.
Aren't we supposed to be sending Kenyan troops funded by the United States to go instill order in Haiti? It's basically a failed state at this point.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFrqeCDWEAA-D8i?format=jpg&name=large)
Seychelles drops witchcraft charges against opposition's Patrick Herminie (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-68307827)
Does anyone know what happened with Rafah? I was too distracted by the Super Bowl to notice the latest massacre by the Zionists of the IDF.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Feb 16, 2024, 01:27 AMDoes anyone know what happened with Rafah? I was too distracted by the Super Bowl to notice the latest massacre by the Zionists of the IDF.
Tbh, I started reading about it and there was a picture of a bleeding orphaned child in some bombed rubble and a woman with a bandaged headwound with a lot of blood in her face. It said 60% of all structures in Gaza had been bombed to smithereens and then I thought hey, let's read something else.
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 16, 2024, 08:06 AMTbh, I started reading about it and there was a picture of a bleeding orphaned child in some bombed rubble and a woman with a bandaged headwound with a lot of blood in her face. It said 60% of all structures in Gaza had been bombed to smithereens and then I thought hey, let's read something else.
I heard a horror story that a 6 year old girl that lost her family from a bombing was then kidnapped and murdered by the IDF. Thats the point where I decided to not look more into it but I will go back and research it eventually.
Some recent homophobia in the global news...
St. Vincent upholds laws criminalizing gay sex in Caribbean island nation in setback for activists (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/st-vincent-upholds-laws-criminalizing-gay-sex-blow-107293027)
Zimbabwe's vice president says the government will block a scholarship for LGBTQ+ people (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/zimbabwes-vice-president-government-block-scholarship-lgbtq-people-107292454)
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Feb 17, 2024, 03:21 PMSome recent homophobia in the global news...
St. Vincent upholds laws criminalizing gay sex in Caribbean island nation in setback for activists (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/st-vincent-upholds-laws-criminalizing-gay-sex-blow-107293027)
Zimbabwe's vice president says the government will block a scholarship for LGBTQ+ people (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/zimbabwes-vice-president-government-block-scholarship-lgbtq-people-107292454)
The first one is kind of strange. My family is from Grenada and there has been a bigger community of LGBT+ growing there over the past couple of years. They even have pride parade there because there are so many people that come there.
Polish farmers block Ukraine's border as they intensify protests against non-EU imports (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/polish-farmers-block-ukraines-border-intensify-protests-eu-107359633)
Wikileaks founder's last bid to resist extradition to the U.S. (https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/02/21/exp-assange-hearing-second-day-foster-live-022008aseg2-cnni-world.cnn)
I support Gary Sambrook & Andrew Mitchell!
I'm considered a huge conservative party supporter!
Quote from: Mindy on Feb 26, 2024, 05:01 PMI support Gary Sambrook & Andrew Mitchell!
I'm considered a huge conservative party supporter!
Why have you mentioned two Tory cunts from Birmingham?
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Feb 26, 2024, 05:05 PMWhy have you mentioned two Tory cunts from Birmingham?
I support them! 8)
Greek police carry out raids and arrests after resurgence in far-left militant attacks (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/greek-police-carry-raids-arrests-after-resurgence-left-107602590)
Gangs threaten Haiti takeover after mass jailbreak (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-68462851)
George Galloway WINS LANDSLIDE VICTORY in Rochdale By-election
Ghana's parliament passes strict new anti-LGBTQ legislation to extend sentences and expand scope (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ghana-anti-lgbtq-legislation-passed-by-parliament/)
@Lisnaholic thoughts on the upcoming UK general election?
Seems like Labour are going to storm it ala Blair 1997 or at least get close.
U.S. military airlifts embassy staff from Port-au-Prince amid Haiti's escalating gang violence (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-military-airlifts-evacuation-staff-embassy-port-au-prince-haiti-gang-violence/)
Ukraine criticises Pope's 'white flag' comment (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68528217)
Upending the "West's Dictatorship." New MP George Galloway on the Next Era of Politics
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Mar 06, 2024, 04:25 PM@Lisnaholic thoughts on the upcoming UK general election?
Seems like Labour are going to storm it ala Blair 1997 or at least get close.
I'm sorry to say that I don't follow UK politics very closely these days, but I have picked up the fact that the image of the Tories stays at rock bottom. Remember the Liz Truss fiasco?? In autumn 2023 Britain watched the total humiliation of a major political party, and somehow the Tories don't seem to have bounced back much in terms of public appeal, so yeah, it could be a Labour landslide. Time for me to dig a bit deeper into the election issues. Thanks for the heads up, jj :thumb:
___________________________________________________
In other news, this Brit invention is surely set to be a global game-changer:-
https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/13/europe/britain-air-defense-laser-dragonfire-intl-hnk-ml/index.html
They say money makes the world go round, and it's for sure that when things get cheap, they get popular. Anyone shopping around for a cost-effective air defense system will raise their eyebrows when they read this:-
QuoteThe [UK] Defense Ministry put the price of firing a 10-second laser burst [from DragonFire] at around $13. In contrast, the Standard Missile-2 used by the United States Navy for air defense costs more than $2 million per shot.
@Lisnaholic there is an ongoing race scandal going on atm with the Tories being pressured to hand back £10m in donations to their biggest backer.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68539981
50 killed in anti-sorcery rituals after being forced to drink "mysterious liquid," Angola officials say (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/50-dead-anti-sorcery-rituals-mysterious-liquid-angola-officials/)Quote"It's a widespread practice to make people drink the supposed poison because of the belief in witchcraft," provincial police spokesperson Antonio Hossi told the radio network, warning that cases were on the rise.
Angola does not have laws against witchcraft, leaving communities to deal with the issue as they see fit.
Allegations of sorcery are often settled by traditional healers, or "marabouts," by having the accused ingest a toxic herbal drink called "Mbulungo." Death is believed by many to prove guilt.
With the election behind him, Russia's leader says he aims to create a buffer zone in Ukraine (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/putin-russia-planning-buffer-zone-protect-ukrainian-cross-108236049)
George Galloway MP - The MOATS Monologue
@FETCHER. Thoughts on this?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68703684
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fee4bba5-421d-4ff5-8ce7-cccaccd08eee?shareToken=19fdfc2656669e96fb05e19504d5fd59
QuoteRishi Sunak faces revolt over plan to criminalise homelessness
Dozens of Tory MPs on the party's left and right are prepared to challenge proposals in the Criminal Justice Bill to move on, fine or jail rough sleepers
Unreal even for this lot. Tory scum.
What the fuck
Caricature disgusting Tory behaviour
Wired reports (https://www.wired.com/story/baltimore-bridge-collapse-conspiracy-theories) - Online Conspiracies About the Baltimore Bridge Collapse Are Out of Control
"A non-exhaustive list of things that are getting blamed for the bridge collapse on Telegram and X include President Biden, Hamas, ISIS, P. Diddy, Nickelodeon, India, former president Barack Obama, Islam, aliens, Sri Lanka, the World Economic Forum, the United Nations, Wokeness, Ukraine, foreign aid, the CIA, Jewish people, Israel, Russia, China, Iran, Covid vaccines, DEI, immigrants, Black people, and lockdowns."
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Apr 01, 2024, 08:07 PM@FETCHER. Thoughts on this?
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68703684
I've not read much on it so far but the general consensus is wtf lol
What are everyone's thoughts on what's going down in Haiti?
Haiti's surge in gang violence has led more than 53,000 to flee the capital in less than three weeks (https://apnews.com/article/haiti-migration-violence-gangs-9283c96bc990827e6c020f6c59710be6)
I don't buy reports of cannibalism, I think that's a completely overblown narrative to generate clicks, but it is certainly a tragedy what's happening.
Quote from: SGR on Apr 03, 2024, 11:47 PMWhat are everyone's thoughts on what's going down in Haiti?
Haiti's surge in gang violence has led more than 53,000 to flee the capital in less than three weeks (https://apnews.com/article/haiti-migration-violence-gangs-9283c96bc990827e6c020f6c59710be6)
I don't buy reports of cannibalism, I think that's a completely overblown narrative to generate clicks, but it is certainly a tragedy what's happening.
So I heard that the root problem of what's going on is easy access to guns from America.
They get them here much cheaper then sell them for way higher prices in Haiti which gangs can now afford from all their criminal enterprises. The better guns they acquire the more power they gain. Higher caliber weapons are flowing through Haiti atm.
Senior UK lawmaker falls victim to a sexting scam (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/senior-uk-lawmaker-fell-victim-sexting-scam-colleagues-108885725)
Quotea senior Conservative admitted disclosing the personal phone numbers of some colleagues to an unknown individual who held "compromising" material on him.
Sounds like another noncing Tory.
A second UK lawmaker says he was targeted in a sexting scam. Police are investigating (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-lawmaker-targeted-sexting-scam-police-investigating-108942294)QuotePolitico said some of those targeted were sent naked images, with at least two reported to have responded by sending images of themselves.
My advice is to never upload or post anything online that you wouldn't want your own mother to see.
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Apr 06, 2024, 05:01 PMA second UK lawmaker says he was targeted in a sexting scam. Police are investigating (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/uk-lawmaker-targeted-sexting-scam-police-investigating-108942294)
My advice is to never upload or post anything online that you wouldn't want your own mother to see.
😂 I've been on the Internet for decades. It's too late to start now.
Quote from: SGR on Apr 03, 2024, 11:47 PMWhat are everyone's thoughts on what's going down in Haiti?
Haiti's surge in gang violence has led more than 53,000 to flee the capital in less than three weeks (https://apnews.com/article/haiti-migration-violence-gangs-9283c96bc990827e6c020f6c59710be6)
I don't buy reports of cannibalism, I think that's a completely overblown narrative to generate clicks, but it is certainly a tragedy what's happening.
The gangs in Haiti aren't just normal street gangs. They have political ties and are comprised of a lot of ex military. Haitis actual military was disbanded in the 90s due to human rights violations. All they have is the national police, which are severely undermanned and under equipped to instill order in the country. The gangs arguably comprise the largest armed force in what is basically a failed state. In addition, as Haitis official government continues to lose its grip on power, the gangs have also in some cases stepped in and filled the role of providing basic services that would usually fall to the state, such as running schools or clinics. So this does raise the obvious question of whether they are best conceptualized as mere gangs or as the earliest building blocks of a sort of proto-government.
The gangs have been applying violent pressure on Haiti's president, Ariel Henry, to step down. It seems to have worked. Henry just recently relinquished power. He had taken power after the previous president (Moise) was assassinated under dubious circumstances. Moise had just named Henry as his PM days before the assassination, only adding to the suspicions. Among those arrested for the murder were 18 Colombian mercenaries.
In addition, Henry had been linked to one of the main suspects (Joseph Badio) in the murder who was later arrested in 2023 and is essentially believed to be the one to put the hit out on Moise via the Colombian mercenaries mentioned earlier.
When Henry was confronted by Port-au-Prince's chief persecutor over the fact that he had had a phone call with Badio just hours after the killing, he fired said prosecutor. That was a mere few months after the July 2021 assassination.
Since then, Haiti has been ruled by an illegitimate government with little popular support that was being propped up by the United States and other interested parties.
Henry has been calling for help from western powers for a while. He wanted an international force to step in and put down the gangs, lead by the UN. U.N. forces have occupied the country twice in semi recent history. Once in 93-96 and again in 2004-2017. After their forces left, the power vacuum allowed for the rise of the gangs to their recent levels of power. As it stands the country has one of the lowest ratios of police to civilians in the entire world.
With the U.N. not willing to directly take the lead on this most recent operation, they are looking instead to basically shop it out to another country that will send a force of their own people while being funded by the United States. There was an agreement in place with Kenya to send around 1000 troops, but last I heard the Kenyans are having some second thoughts. Whether they are genuinely looking to back out or holding out for hopefully more money isn't exactly clear. It could be a combination of motivations. But in any case it the prospect of them stabilizing the country with 1000 troops that don't speak the native language nor have any sort of connection or ties to the local population was always dubious at best.
Quote from: Jwb on Apr 08, 2024, 01:30 AMThe gangs in Haiti aren't just normal street gangs. They have political ties and are comprised of a lot of ex military. Haitis actual military was disbanded in the 90s due to human rights violations. All they have is the national police, which are severely undermanned and under equipped to instill order in the country. The gangs arguably comprise the largest armed force in what is basically a failed state. In addition, as Haitis official government continues to lose its grip on power, the gangs have also in some cases stepped in and filled the role of providing basic services that would usually fall to the state, such as running schools or clinics. So this does raise the obvious question of whether they are best conceptualized as mere gangs or as the earliest building blocks of a sort of proto-government.
The gangs have been applying violent pressure on Haiti's president, Ariel Henry, to step down. It seems to have worked. Henry just recently relinquished power. He had taken power after the previous president (Moise) was assassinated under dubious circumstances. Moise had just named Henry as his PM days before the assassination, only adding to the suspicions. Among those arrested for the murder were 18 Colombian mercenaries.
In addition, Henry had been linked to one of the main suspects (Joseph Badio) in the murder who was later arrested in 2023 and is essentially believed to be the one to put the hit out on Moise via the Colombian mercenaries mentioned earlier.
When Henry was confronted by Port-au-Prince's chief persecutor over the fact that he had had a phone call with Badio just hours after the killing, he fired said prosecutor. That was a mere few months after the July 2021 assassination.
Since then, Haiti has been ruled by an illegitimate government with little popular support that was being propped up by the United States and other interested parties.
Henry has been calling for help from western powers for a while. He wanted an international force to step in and put down the gangs, lead by the UN. U.N. forces have occupied the country twice in semi recent history. Once in 93-96 and again in 2004-2017. After their forces left the power vacuum allowed for the rise of the gangs to their recent levels of power. As it stands the country has one of the lowest ratios of police to citizens in the entire world.
With the U.N. not willing to directly take the lead on this most recent operation, they are looking instead to basically shop it out to another country that will send a force of their own people while being funded by the United States. There was an agreement in place with Kenya to send around 1000 troops, but last I heard the Kenyans are having some second thoughts. Whether they are genuinely looking to back out or holding out for hopefully more money isn't exactly clear. It could be a combination of motivations. But in any case it the prospect of them stabilizing the country with 1000 troops that don't speak the native language nor have any sort of connection or ties to the local population was always dubious at best.
An excellent summary, thanks for that! Summarized much more concisely than any recent news article I've read about the situation and its context.
From the sounds of it, I'd guess that Ariel Henry had the backing of the American CIA, and they, in a sense, overtrhew the previous government via assassination.
I'm not so sure it goes that deep but I honestly have been recently learning about it myself.
Thing is, it seems more plausible to me that Henry just acted on his own and then the US stepped in to help him stay in power. The reason I say so is because as alluded to by the various occupations, transitions of power etc I referenced from the point of 1993 - now, instability is an unshakable trend in Haitian politics. So it's already not hard to imagine a Haitian leader being taken out by one of his rivals in a hired killing.
Also, the US hasn't exactly been desperate to keep Henry in power. They give very minimal and tepid attempts at stabilizing the current situation because it's really bad for their position, and in an election year on top of it. But the reason they aren't more gung ho about going down and setting things straight is cause we've tried that like a half dozen times before. They just want the situation to go away.
Protesters in southern Mexico set state government building afire and torch a dozen vehicles (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/protesters-southern-mexico-set-state-government-building-afire-109004971)
Kangana Ranaut, actor and BJP election candidate, denies eating beef (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-68761734)
Haiti police recover hijacked cargo ship in rare victory after 5-hour shootout with gangs (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/haiti-police-recover-hijacked-cargo-ship-rare-victory-108996725)
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68796363
Iran about to smash Israel.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Apr 12, 2024, 07:50 PMhttps://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68796363
Iran about to smash Israel.
Is the Shiite ready to hit the fan?
Spain will scrap 'golden visas' that allow wealthy non-EU residents to stay if they buy real estate (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/spain-scrap-golden-visas-wealthy-eu-residents-stay-108998028)
I doubt Iran will attack a population center. If they do, Israel will wipe out their leadership - and this would be the most opportune time for them to do so, and Iran must know that. All Iran needs to do is give them a reason.
Israel says it intercepted 99% of drones and missiles launched by Iran (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-israel-hails-interception-drones-missiles-unprecedented-attack-109214109)QuoteIsrael praised the success of its defenses in the face of an unprecedented attack by Iran involving hundreds of drones, ballistic missiles and cruise missiles.
An Israeli military spokesman said Sunday the launches numbered more than 300, but 99% of them were intercepted. Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari said Iran fired 170 drones, more than 30 cruise missiles and more than 120 ballistic missiles. Several ballistic missiles reached Israeli territory, causing minor damage to an air base.
That's very impressive if true.
I doubt Iran will have that kind of success defending itself against an Israeli counterattack if the Israelis decide to retaliate.
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Apr 14, 2024, 02:13 PMIsrael says it intercepted 99% of drones and missiles launched by Iran (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-israel-hails-interception-drones-missiles-unprecedented-attack-109214109)
That's very impressive if true.
I doubt Iran will have that kind of success defending itself against an Israeli counterattack if the Israelis decide to retaliate.
It's not that impressive when you learn that they were given a heads up it was gonna happen within 72 hours and that other countries help in with defending them. It was not Israel alone that defended against that attack. They did it this way on purpose.
New Zealand tightens visa rules as immigration minister says "unsustainable numbers coming into the country" (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-zealand-tighten-visa-rules-migration-levels-unsustainable/)
Quote from: DJChameleon on Apr 16, 2024, 12:21 AMIt's not that impressive when you learn that they were given a heads up it was gonna happen within 72 hours and that other countries help in with defending them. It was not Israel alone that defended against that attack. They did it this way on purpose.
Yeah, I think it was a fake 'attack' meant to keep up appearances with their public - not an actual retaliation. They had to respond in some way or the Iranian public would be pretty pissed.
Scotland to ditch key climate change target (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-68841141)
London police apologize after threatening to arrest 'openly Jewish' man near pro-Palestinian protest (https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/london-police-apologize-after-threatening-arrest-openly-jewish-109457228)
Can see why the police did it. They don't want things to kick off. Not right obviously, but the fact they feared for his safety simply because he was visibly Jewish tells you all you need to know about the types of people at these Palestine protests.
The first apology is just taking the piss.
UK approves bill to send some asylum-seekers to Rwanda (https://abcnews.go.com/International/uk-approves-bill-send-asylum-seekers-rwanda/story?id=109525949)
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Apr 23, 2024, 10:12 PMUK approves bill to send some asylum-seekers to Rwanda (https://abcnews.go.com/International/uk-approves-bill-send-asylum-seekers-rwanda/story?id=109525949)
Apparently this is going to cost £1.8m per deportee.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Apr 23, 2024, 10:17 PMApparently this is going to cost £1.8m per deportee.
At first, I thought you made a typo on the cost per deportee. I looked at another article where the cost was mentioned and that figure appears to be correct.
I'd like to see an itemized list showing exactly where all of that money is going and what it's being used for.
I looked up one-way flights per person in coach class from London to Rwanda and came up with a cost of £735.76 for a flight leaving on July 1st.
That's what I thought, £1.8m has got to be bollocks but no apparently that is the real cost.
No money for doctors, nurses, the homeless or the disabled but billions to send some people to Rwanda.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Apr 24, 2024, 05:52 PMThat's what I thought, £1.8m has got to be bollocks but no apparently that is the real cost.
No money for doctors, nurses, the homeless or the disabled but billions to send some people to Rwanda.
Looks like the rulers of Rwanda aren't bribed cheaply.
Iranian rapper Toomaj Salehi sentenced to death for songs critical of regime (https://abcnews.go.com/International/iranian-rapper-toomaj-salehi-sentenced-death-songs-critical/story?id=109575605)
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Apr 25, 2024, 03:15 PMIranian rapper Toomaj Salehi sentenced to death for songs critical of regime (https://abcnews.go.com/International/iranian-rapper-toomaj-salehi-sentenced-death-songs-critical/story?id=109575605)
Yeah I sadly heard about this.
Humza might be on the way out already?
@FETCHER. 😂😂😂
Hopefully 🤞. He's a fanny.
Spain accidentally releases alleged Dutch druglord Karim Bouyakhrichan (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68882474)
Irish government wants to send asylum seekers back to UK (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-68914399)
Humza Yousaf, the most reported man in Scotland for racial hate speech, has resigned.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/uk-scotland-68918348?src_origin=BBCS_BBC
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Apr 28, 2024, 12:49 PMIrish government wants to send asylum seekers back to UK (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-68914399)
You've got to laugh.
Ex-U.K. leader Boris Johnson turned away from polling station for forgetting photo ID under law he ushered in (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boris-johnson-turned-away-voter-id-uk/)
Tories smashed to bits in the local elections.
Our mayor has gone too.
Hopefully this is the start of better times.
Russia calls France leader Macron refusing to rule out troops for Ukraine "very dangerous" (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ukraine-russia-war-macron-french-troops-nato-latest-news-front-lines/)
Why Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza (https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d)
Quote from: Psy-Fi on May 13, 2024, 01:37 PMWhy Egypt and other Arab countries are unwilling to take in Palestinian refugees from Gaza (https://apnews.com/article/palestinian-jordan-egypt-israel-refugee-502c06d004767d4b64848d878b66bd3d)
QuoteAt the same time, Egypt says a mass exodus from Gaza would bring Hamas or other Palestinian militants onto its soil.
So they don't want terrorists in their country? :laughing: