I guess I'm a NIMBY: Am I a horrible person, or how do you feel about being one?

[Lisnaholic]

I didn't imagine there'd be an expert on the Hawaii Stairway to Heaven here, SGR! What you say, and the story of Daylenn Pua looks very interesting.

I completely agree with you: it makes a lot of sense for Hawaii to turn the stairway into a slightly more orderly tourist attraction. Mind you, having said that, I've heard that people born in Hawaii are pretty hostile to tourists and settlers from elsewhere now, on account of there being so many of them, buying up the island's houses, etc.

I'll take a look at your Missing Persons thread, because I like these real-life stories: murders, wildlife adventures gone wrong, etc.

[jimmy jazz]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787484347550851168

Thoughts Trolls? @Trollheart

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2024/0506/1447623-anti-immigration-march-dublin/

[Trollheart]

As per usual, it's the violent element/right wing groups organising these. It's telling that at the same time a Pro-Palestinian march was taking place and the two traded "chants" (luckily nothing more, as there was a police presence). So what does that tell you? Why would so-called anti-immigrationists have anything against Palestinians who aren't coming to Ireland for sanctuary? The mask slips, and we can see that the real driving force behind this march is right-wing xenophobia and hatred, racism and perhaps zionism? Very odd, you'd have to say, that these people who in general hate the Jews, would actively, as it were, defend them by attacking (only verbally, as I said) their enemies, and essentially supporting them. Just shows you there is no logic to the extreme right.

As for me, I continue to see (and hear) these protests down the road, and now we have up to seventy tents camped out in our city centre, with a major encampment having been broken up by the cops. I guess I'm ambivalent: I still can't say I want the refugees so close to my doorstep, but I couldn't and don't agree with the right-wing anti-immigration rhetoric being spouted by rabble-rousers and agents provacateur on the streets of my city.

[Mindy]

[Trollheart]

Jesus on a surfboard! Irish Lives Matter? What the actual fuck? I'm ashamed for my countrymen and women.

[Lisnaholic]

Trollheart opened this thread with a real-life dilemma which imo rolls two issues into one:
i) how to deal with refugees and other immigrants
ii) how to react when changes are imposed on your neighbourhood

Refugees and immigrants pose a really complex moral problem, so I'm happy to divert this thread to a more clear-cut case, where there is a discernable bad guy: Crown Prince Mohamed bin Salman - yes, Jared Kushner's buddy and the guy who ordered a dissident journalist assassinated.

The extremely dubious, super-ambitious, construction project called The Line is a pet project of the Crown Prince, so no surprise that local NIMBYs are shown no mercy:  

[A Saudi coronel charged with land clearance] said the April 2020 order stated ... "whoever continues to resist [eviction] should be killed, so it licensed the use of lethal force against whoever stayed in their home".

[Humble NIMBY]Abdul Rahim al-Huwaiti refused to allow a land registry committee to value his property, and was shot dead by Saudi authorities a day later, during the clearance mission. 

source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68945445

So, yeah, by all means, be a NIMBY in Ireland with my blessing, Trollheart, but please don't go to Saudi Arabia and be one there.

[Trollheart]

You know, it's not the same of course (not state-sanctioned) but as I said, violent methods are used. Places mysteriously burn down only days/weeks/hours after being announced or discovered as being slated as refugee shelters. I know all about SA though, as I tackled its reaction to Covid-19 in that journal. Let's just say, there weren't too many anti-vaxxer protests on the streets of Riyadh, and nobody rushed the royal palace... 

[Lisnaholic]

Will refugees and NIMBYs ever live in peace with each other? There's a conflict going on all over the world that reminds me of a family squabble: it may sometimes erupt into violence, but it's main characteristic is the way it plays out continuously in small-scale disputes, often turning up at unexpected moments.

Here's what's happening today along the Dublin Canal:- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c72pplgjdkjo

Dublin Canal as it used to be:-



Dublin Canal with fencing to prevent asylum seekers from camping along the banks:-



This is not going to win the refugees any sympathy from Dubliners.

 

[Trollheart]

Didn't work; numbers increasing every day. Standing at about 90 now.

Generally, people - especially those who live along the Grand Canal - are sympathetic to the asylum seekers. Most blame the government for a totally inadequate response. But you're right Lisna: it's fuel to a fire that the right wing groups and anti-immigrants will fan even higer.

They now want to use this place, state land, as an official tented site. Let's see how long before the protesting crowds turn up.

And they're reducing the social welfare payment for Ukranian refugees who aren't working from 232 Euro to, wait for it, 38! Who can live on that?

The Government has estimated that 27,000 Ukrainian refugees who benefit from temporary protection will receive reduced payments within three months following a decision by the Cabinet.

Ministers have signed off on the plan brought by Taoiseach Simon Harris, Minister for Social Protection Heather Humphreys, Minister for Integration Roderic O'Gorman and Minister for Justice Helen McEntee.

The reduced payments will apply to Ukrainians who do not work and live in what is termed 'State-provided serviced accommodation', such as a hotel where meals are provided.

It will not apply to Ukrainians living in what is termed 'pledged accommodation', such as people living in homes which have been leased to the State.

It also will not apply to Ukrainians who live in State-provided accommodation that is not serviced, such as a converted school building.

Last December, the Government reduced payments to new arrivals - from March - from €232 a week to €38.80.

Now the lower payment will become the baseline for all Ukrainians in such circumstances.

Labour Party leader Ivana Bacik expressed serious concern that this could amount to targeting of older people and women with children who cannot work.

She has called for "clarity" that the new Government policy will be fair and not target the weakest in society.

Taoiseach Simon Harris has defended the approach, saying on his way into Cabinet, that it does not seem sensible that two children from Ukraine in the same school are treated very differently.

Mr Harris said that Ireland "is a compassionate country, but compassion does need to align with common sense".

"It doesn't seem sensible to me that you would have two children from Ukraine in the same school today in a very different system of treatment for one person's family versus the other," Mr Harris said.

In addition to having a "consistency of approach" Mr Harris said it had to be "financially sustainable."

[Saulaac]

Will refugees and NIMBYs ever live in peace with each other? There's a conflict going on all over the world that reminds me of a family squabble: it may sometimes erupt into violence, but it's main characteristic is the way it plays out continuously in small-scale disputes, often turning up at unexpected moments.

Here's what's happening today along the Dublin Canal:- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c72pplgjdkjo

Dublin Canal as it used to be:-



Dublin Canal with fencing to prevent asylum seekers from camping along the banks:-



This is not going to win the refugees any sympathy from Dubliners.  

Lisna, you are a wise fellow which is I why voted for you as the best writer in the SCD awards 2023 but JWB narrowly beat you to it. All of you guys will sort this situation out with your analyses and thoughts. And TH, this is yet another very important thread which you created.

One thing I would like to add is that, having followed/studied modern economics and accounting, if certain groups are experiencing a loss in income or getting into more and more debt, then another group is benefiting from that debt and milking it to the max right now.

We are against the wall, as a species in the capitalist system. How much more can we tolerate? Well that depends how many more fences we will accept are erected in some weird circus diffused by the main media, by so-called governments of the day (who as you and I know are pampering to the big banks, grand investors and nobody else).
 

[jimmy jazz]

I don't think it's fair to just smear those who have concerns or objections as being right wing and the like.

What is Sinn Fein's stance on this? They are left wing after all.

It is behind a pay wall but this article in the Irish Times suggests that attitudes towards the migrants is toughest among those who support Sinn Fein:



https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/05/17/attitudes-on-immigration-toughest-among-sinn-fein-supporters/

[Trollheart]

I don't think it's fair to just smear those who have concerns or objections as being right wing and the like.

What is Sinn Fein's stance on this? They are left wing after all.

It is behind a pay wall but this article in the Irish Times suggests that attitudes towards the migrants is toughest among those who support Sinn Fein:



https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/05/17/attitudes-on-immigration-toughest-among-sinn-fein-supporters/

I don't believe I labelled all opposition to immigrants/refugees as being right wing; I just said they're the ones who will both make political capital and sow the seeds of violence over it. I'm sure plenty of left/centrist people have their own views about it too. Issues like this seldom divide directly along political or ideological lines, and of course there will be those who say nothing but think what they want to think. As for Sinn Fein, well I don't know, but since Republicans didn't want Brits here, it's probably fair to imagine they don't fancy sharing our island with "foreigners." Some sort of "Ireland for the Irish" sentiment, maybe?

Then again, the IRA being a terrorist organisation and all, maybe they stick together?    Seriously, I don't know, but as I say I think it's more a sort of broad-ranging opinion that crosses party and religious lines, and I doubt one particular set of opponents can all fall into the one camp. Naturally, Sinn Fein themselves make a big show of being on the "right", which is to say, proper, not right-wing, side, but we all know when a politician is telling lies, right? You watch Judge Judy, yes? 

[Guybrush]

I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll share some perspective from Norway.

My basic position is generally immigrant and refugee friendly. I believe most of them want a good life here. They want to contribute to society. They sometimes want to enjoy the freedom and opportunities Norwegian society offers them, especially women from countries where women don't have the same opportunities as men.

I've met a lot of refugees and we have immigrant friends, also from Ukraine. In 2015, with the war in Syria and other conflicts, Norway took in a lot of refugees. Hotels were converted. At that time, I collected a bunch of old laptops from the municipality, like from where I worked and from a couple of schools. They were mostly crappy, but I set them up with Lubuntu and we delivered them to the refugee centers. I also gave away my old Xbox 360 and my entire collection of movies and games.. I hope they like Evil Dead.

Around the same time, my wife and my sister had joined a women's society that was mixing Norwegian women with immigrant women and while it was mostly for women, I came along on trips and helped out. We got into contact with a lot of people that way, like we've been invited for Eritrean new years celebration, befriended a Muslim single mom of three kids whom we all had over for Christmas celebrations one year, people from Ethiopia, from Turkey etc. My sister is a sociologist and has been working some with how immigrants are met in the Norwegian system (it's not always easy for them) and through that, we've also helped out a little and it's only a couple of weeks or so since I took some time out of work to help someone out.

A lot of people are sceptical about taking in immigrants or refugees. They may think they're all a certain way and can all be described by certain broad strokes. I think they're often judged unfairly. The people we've met have unanimously been hard working, good people who wanted to make it here.

I sometimes read that they cost too much. I think getting someone who's already an engineer, doctor, knows construction - and mostly just needs to learn the language and then can get straight to work - is a huge boon to society and less costly than growing a new engineer from a baby. Actually, I already know that Norwegians on average take more money from the state than they give back. The education, health and other services are too expensive. People don't pay enough back in taxes to make up for it. Immigrants can potentially become tax payers with relatively little investment.

I sometimes read they are criminal. They are a little more criminal on average, but I do think this worry stems from fear more than anything else. There's never been any obvious criminal element to the people I've met. I think in some culrure,s, there's more illegal social control and things that don't bleed over to society at large. And yes, as a demographic they are more criminal. But it's also important to remember that crime has gone down steadily for a long time and the streets are safer than ever - and much safer now than, say, they were in the year 2000. When there's news about murder, it's usually full-bred white Norwegians going crazy.

At worst, I think being very sceptical and dystopic about immigration could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all agree integration is extremely important for immigrants to succeed and to become contributors to society. But it's not their responsibility alone. We create the system that is supposed to help them on their way. We may be the employers who can give them a chance at a job. We can be fellow human beings and accept them into our communities and take care not to talk about them in a way that would cause distance, outsiderness and a feeling of not being accepted.

Something I absolutely hate is when brown skinned, young people who are born in Norway don't feel like they're Norwegian and talk about themselves like they're not Norwegian because they feel like they don't belong. Then we've failed them as a society and I think we all have a responsibility to prevent that from happening.