I guess I'm a NIMBY: Am I a horrible person, or how do you feel about being one?

[Trollheart]

For those who don't know, NIMBY is a phrase used, at least here in Ireland, and stands for Not In My Back Yard. Essentially, it refers to a person or group who nominally supports something or someone, but does not want it near them. Example: back in the 1980s when the councils were giving houses to travellers/knackers/pikeys/gypsies, most people thought sure that's fine, but I don't want them moving in next door to me! Or the "halting sites", which were/are basically caravan parks where these people usually permanently live, same thing: they have to go somewhere, but I don't want them here.

Last week, the Irish government announced that an abandoned factory near me is to be used to house refugees. These announcements have, in recent times, met with strong and stiff resistance, and quite frankly, a large percentage of the intended occupation has been burned down. Even this week, four people are in court over the arson of a hotel in Galway which was to have been converted. Feelings are running very high.

Is there an excuse for this, or can I understand it? Certainly. While I'm sure a large percentage of these people are no problem, there are bound to be those who are, whether they're terrorists or troublemakers or a criminal element, or just those who hate their situation and strike out at the nearest target for their anger. People worry if their children will be safe, they worry about property values, they worry about night time disturbances and they worry about crime.

On the other hand, you can't deny that if these people seek and are granted entry to the country, even if this is while they await processing of their application for asylum, they have to be housed. So the problem then is where?

I walked past the factory today and there was a small knot of protesters outside it. They had Irish flags and signs like "COOLOCK SAYS NO!" and "Inner City says no!" (not sure about that one; we're not inner anything. If you could call us something it would be outer suburbs but anyway) and the always-popular ones about protecting our children. They were peaceful - families, so far as I could see, and maybe six or seven people in all - but as I passed (and since I heard the news) I have to admit I don't know that I can disagree with them. I, too, worry what might happen if this goes ahead and I'm passing and someone accosts me outside, or follows me home, or a fight breaks out etc etc.

So I have to accept now that I am a NIMBY. Up to now, I've read the reports and shook my head and thought "leave the poor refugees alone!" Now, rather to my dismay, I find my views aligning uncomfortably with the naysayers and the far right, and that worries me. Not that I would participate in or condone arson, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be relieved if the protests led to the scrapping of the idea.

So am I a horrible person? I mean, more horrible than usual. This factory is about ten minutes walk from where I live. Coming in on the bus I'd be passing it. Directly opposite the factory is a cinema complex, a leisureplex, and an electrical store. To the right, about two minutes away is a small knot of bungalows: I noticed today one has been sold, though whether that has anything to do with the proposed plans or not I don't know. About five minutes in the other direction is Coolock village, the Cadbury factory and the local police station and church. To my knowledge, nobody sought our opinion about this, nobody engaged with us; it's just a fait accompli, like it or lump it, so I'm not happy.

Would it be better if they were housed somewhere else, far from me? Of course. Does that make me a hypocrite? Have you had a similar experience, and if not, how would you feel were you in my position? Answers scrawled in crayon (in the colour of your choice) on a postcard to...

[SGR]

Refugees from where, might I ask?

I don't know much about Ireland, their policies, or your specific situation - but the success of this will in some way be related to how well they integrate and assimilate. The right incentives need to be there as well - if the government of Ireland will house, clothe, and feed them - and/or put them on the dole rather indefinitely, the incentives might not be that strong for them to assimilate/integrate quickly. More than likely, their conditions in Ireland will be much better than wherever they came from.

Second generation immigrants tend to be much more assimilated to their host culture/country than their heritage culture/country, as they grew up there. But I suppose that doesn't make a lick of difference to you in the here and now.

If you've heavily voted for politicians/policies that are pro-immigration/pro-refugees, then I guess it does make you a bit of a hypocrite, but hypocrisy is not uncommon in the human condition. For example, I'm pro-nuclear energy - but if I then had the local government, without even asking me, install a nuclear power plant right next door to me, I might be pretty irritated too. 

[Trollheart]

Ukraine I guess. We don't really get told: they're just "refugees". As far as voting is concerned, it's pointless - we don't have a right wing party in Ireland (they're all either liberal or left or centrist or some damn thing, and even the so-called "Republican party", Sinn Fein, is left-leaning, as they used to be the political wing of the IRA) so there's no party that's anti-refugee. It's not like England with UKIP or France with yer wan Marie thing, we just don't have that sort of split in our politics. As a result, you don't vote for who supports what: you vote for, as we say here, WIIFM: What's In It For Me? So it's local issues - employment, housing, rents, education, health etc. Therefore, no, I can't say I voted for any party that is pro or anti-refugee. In fact, Irish politics is so skewed and unbalanced that the party I voted for (the abovementioned Sinn Fein) won more seats than any other in our last election, but did not get to form a government because none of the three major parties would work with them, so what we have now is a coaltion of parties nobody voted for, or wanted. So much for democracy!

[SGR]

Ukraine I guess. We don't really get told: they're just "refugees". As far as voting is concerned, it's pointless - we don't have a right wing party in Ireland (they're all either liberal or left or centrist or some damn thing, and even the so-called "Republican party", Sinn Fein, is left-leaning, as they used to be the political wing of the IRA) so there's no party that's anti-refugee. It's not like England with UKIP or France with yer wan Marie thing, we just don't have that sort of split in our politics. As a result, you don't vote for who supports what: you vote for, as we say here, WIIFM: What's In It For Me? So it's local issues - employment, housing, rents, education, health etc. Therefore, no, I can't say I voted for any party that is pro or anti-refugee. In fact, Irish politics is so skewed and unbalanced that the party I voted for (the abovementioned Sinn Fein) won more seats than any other in our last election, but did not get to form a government because none of the three major parties would work with them, so what we have now is a coaltion of parties nobody voted for, or wanted. So much for democracy!

I've heard of Sinn Fein before, and thanks for setting me straight, I thought they were a right-wing party, in a more American sense. I look 'em up on Google and I see the following definition:

"Sinn Féin is an Irish republican and social democratic political party..."

Which as you can imagine, has my my brain parsing the American meanings of those labels together like:

the party I voted for (the abovementioned Sinn Fein) won more seats than any other in our last election, but did not get to form a government because none of the three major parties would work with them, so what we have now is a coaltion of parties nobody voted for, or wanted. So much for democracy!

So are you telling me that a multi-party government isn't the solution to America's problems, and it would just result in more do-nothing parties bickering with each other while problems remain unsolved and unaddressed? 

[jimmy jazz]

No far-right party but you've already got people spraying anti-refugee graffiti and burning down buildings where they could be housed? And they haven't even arrived yet? You'll have your UKIP soon don't worry.

What happened with that child that was stabbed a few months back when there was all that trouble in Dublin? I remember it kicking off and then didn't hear anything else about it.

how would you feel were you in my position?

Refugees fine, anyone else no. And you already know where I live and it's history so it's not a hypothetical situation here.

[jimmy jazz]

Apt.

[Trollheart]

Yeah the thing is in our world Republican means something different. It refers to the party that was set up to fight for Ireland's independence from Britain. Originally, we were given the status of a Free State in 1923, but this was a solution that satisfied nobody (I'm pretty sure we still had to swear allegiance to the Crown) and resulted in an Irish civil war. The Republican party (Sinn Fein) have never been satisfied with the loss of the Six Counties (Ulster basically) to the UK, and have campaigned - originally, with violence hence the IRA, then later with political lobbying, leading to the Good Friday Agreement - for their return. Trouble is, the majority of Ulster is Protestant and therefore consider themselves British, so they don't want to be reunited with us.

Yeah, I undestand what you mean about the slogans and all, but this is done mostly in the name of various right wing groups, but not with any official government sanction. Unfortunately, you'll get these people everywhere, no matter what the political party in power is.

Oh, as far as the child getting stabbed went, well there were riots in the streets (mostly far right groups taking advantage of the situation) with buildings burned, people hassled and the Dail (our seat of government) picketed. It was a night of madness, and cost millions of Euro damage, but once it was over it was kind of back to normal. You know how these things go. As far as the actual incident, I really don't know: I think the riots overshadowed the actual stabbing. I believe it was not any sort of hate crime, but a personal thing. Awful thing, horrible, but an isolated incident. I'll see if I can find out anything further about it.

[Lisnaholic]

Definitely not a horrible person or hypocrite Trollheart !

I think being a NIMBY is a natural, instinctive reaction to those kinds of big local changes. Many of my friends/family have adopted the NIMBY position - but mainly in connection with some vast new road schemes, etc. so a little different from your case. How does being a NIMBY usually play out in those cases? Town Hall protests, then grudging acceptance of the inevitable, and finally a kind of barely-notice-the-change-anymore.

So, it partly depends what you're being a nimby about and also how you behave. I'd say grumbling and protesting is fine, but physical damage to property is not. I hope that, as SGR says, any refugees will assimilate over time, even if that seems like an unimaginably far-away future. Any idea of how many, or what ratio of refugees-to-locals is being proposed? One thing I'm confident of is that face-to-face you'll treat any refugee decently, and in the long run that's the attitude which will help the assimilation process.

Please keep us posted on how things develop, and try not to burn your fingers while commiting arson, ok? 

[Trollheart]

Thanks Lisna: can always rely on a sympathetic response from you. I imagine it will probably go ahead - the location of it doesn't really lend itself to violent protests (as I mentioned, the cop shop is just around the corner, and I'm sure they're on alert for anything of the kind), and in all likelihood the bogeymen we see will not surface. Personally, I don't tend to leave the house that often now since Karen passed away, so passing it will not really be an issue for me. I'm just hoping it all works out, and I'd love to think we were a welcoming area, but unfortunately sometimes people just have nothing better to do than hassle people. I do find myself torn, but I definitely don't want to see any damage, violence or injury resulting. My fear would kind of be when/if they move in, how they'll be received, which might have a large impact on how they act once they take possession, as it were.

But don't worry: I won't burn my arse while fingering. What? That's what you said, isn't it?

[Lisnaholic]

You'll have the chance to watch in microcosm an issue that is playing out in various places in Europe,and (with changes of personnel) across the world.
I expect you to be out there, standing at the factory gates with your clipboard and microphone, interviewing refugees and locals at least once a week to monitor their attitudes - but be careful where you are putting your fingers

[SGR]

Now, rather to my dismay, I find my views aligning uncomfortably with the naysayers and the far right, and that worries me.

I saw this video, which reminded me of this thread 

[Lisnaholic]

^ That's a funny song, SGR ! I've never heard of this guy, but checked him out on Youtube and found some more songs with clever lyrics. Thanks.
___________________________

Here's news of a NIMBY victory in Hawaii:-  https://edition.cnn.com/travel/haiku-stairs-hawaii-removal/index.html

I have to confess that my initial reaction was: why are they spoiling the fun? But the actual islanders seem very united in not wanting the stairs, so perhaps their opinions should carry more weight than my own judgement, made in one minute over coffee from 1000-mile-away and then forgotten.

[SGR]

^ That's a funny song, SGR ! I've never heard of this guy, but checked him out on Youtube and found some more songs with clever lyrics. Thanks.
___________________________

Here's news of a NIMBY victory in Hawaii:-  https://edition.cnn.com/travel/haiku-stairs-hawaii-removal/index.html

I have to confess that my initial reaction was: why are they spoiling the fun? But the actual islanders seem very united in not wanting the stairs, so perhaps their opinions should carry more weight than my own judgement, made in one minute over coffee from 1000-mile-away and then forgotten.

I'm somewhat familiar with the Haiku/Stairway to Heaven stairs. I think there's more support for tearing them down from people living directly near the base of the stairs than on other parts of the island (obviously because they're the ones most impacted). Like you, I don't live there, but it would seem to me to make a lot more economic sense to set up access ways, charge admission fees, and force hikers to sign liability waivers upon entrance. It's a big hike up, but it's not particularly dangerous given that the stairs are in relatively good condition for their age and have hand-rails all the way up top. It's going to cost them 2.5 million dollars to remove all the stairs, I think it would cost a lot less to turn it into a proper revenue-boosting tourist attraction. Here's an interesting recent video on the matter giving some pros and cons to both sides of the argument:

I happened to learn about these stairs due to my interest in strange disappearances. A young man named Daylenn Pua hiked the stairs in 2015 - disappearaed - and was never heard from again. There's a bit of sensationalism in his case because one of the photos he sent his family, upon further scrutiny, appears to reveal a man in the bushes. I tend to think he happened to catch a picture of another hiker passing by, and this guy captured had nothing to do with his disappearance/death, but I guess stranger things have happened.





Here's a video summary of the case:

Charley Project page for Daylenn:

https://charleyproject.org/case/daylenn-moke-pua

[Trollheart]

I think we all now want a journal on those disappearing people. Make it so, SGR! Hello? Hello?

[SGR]

I think we all now want a journal on those disappearing people. Make it so, SGR! Hello? Hello?

I've actually got something akin to a journal on it (only because I have posted most of the cases in the thread), but it's in the lounge section:

The Missing Persons Thread

Haven't made a post in it in a while though, I'll have to correct that soon.