For those who don't know, NIMBY is a phrase used, at least here in Ireland, and stands for Not In My Back Yard. Essentially, it refers to a person or group who nominally supports something or someone, but does not want it near them. Example: back in the 1980s when the councils were giving houses to travellers/knackers/pikeys/gypsies, most people thought sure that's fine, but I don't want them moving in next door to me! Or the "halting sites", which were/are basically caravan parks where these people usually permanently live, same thing: they have to go somewhere, but I don't want them here.
Last week, the Irish government announced that an abandoned factory near me is to be used to house refugees. These announcements have, in recent times, met with strong and stiff resistance, and quite frankly, a large percentage of the intended occupation has been burned down. Even this week, four people are in court over the arson of a hotel in Galway which was to have been converted. Feelings are running very high.
Is there an excuse for this, or can I understand it? Certainly. While I'm sure a large percentage of these people are no problem, there are bound to be those who are, whether they're terrorists or troublemakers or a criminal element, or just those who hate their situation and strike out at the nearest target for their anger. People worry if their children will be safe, they worry about property values, they worry about night time disturbances and they worry about crime.
On the other hand, you can't deny that if these people seek and are granted entry to the country, even if this is while they await processing of their application for asylum, they have to be housed. So the problem then is where?
I walked past the factory today and there was a small knot of protesters outside it. They had Irish flags and signs like "COOLOCK SAYS NO!" and "Inner City says no!" (not sure about that one; we're not inner anything. If you could call us something it would be outer suburbs but anyway) and the always-popular ones about protecting our children. They were peaceful - families, so far as I could see, and maybe six or seven people in all - but as I passed (and since I heard the news) I have to admit I don't know that I can disagree with them. I, too, worry what might happen if this goes ahead and I'm passing and someone accosts me outside, or follows me home, or a fight breaks out etc etc.
So I have to accept now that I am a NIMBY. Up to now, I've read the reports and shook my head and thought "leave the poor refugees alone!" Now, rather to my dismay, I find my views aligning uncomfortably with the naysayers and the far right, and that worries me. Not that I would participate in or condone arson, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't be relieved if the protests led to the scrapping of the idea.
So am I a horrible person? I mean, more horrible than usual. This factory is about ten minutes walk from where I live. Coming in on the bus I'd be passing it. Directly opposite the factory is a cinema complex, a leisureplex, and an electrical store. To the right, about two minutes away is a small knot of bungalows: I noticed today one has been sold, though whether that has anything to do with the proposed plans or not I don't know. About five minutes in the other direction is Coolock village, the Cadbury factory and the local police station and church. To my knowledge, nobody sought our opinion about this, nobody engaged with us; it's just a fait accompli, like it or lump it, so I'm not happy.
Would it be better if they were housed somewhere else, far from me? Of course. Does that make me a hypocrite? Have you had a similar experience, and if not, how would you feel were you in my position? Answers scrawled in crayon (in the colour of your choice) on a postcard to...
Refugees from where, might I ask?
I don't know much about Ireland, their policies, or your specific situation - but the success of this will in some way be related to how well they integrate and assimilate. The right incentives need to be there as well - if the government of Ireland will house, clothe, and feed them - and/or put them on the dole rather indefinitely, the incentives might not be that strong for them to assimilate/integrate quickly. More than likely, their conditions in Ireland will be much better than wherever they came from.
Second generation immigrants tend to be much more assimilated to their host culture/country than their heritage culture/country, as they grew up there. But I suppose that doesn't make a lick of difference to you in the here and now.
If you've heavily voted for politicians/policies that are pro-immigration/pro-refugees, then I guess it does make you a bit of a hypocrite, but hypocrisy is not uncommon in the human condition. For example, I'm pro-nuclear energy - but if I then had the local government, without even asking me, install a nuclear power plant right next door to me, I might be pretty irritated too. :laughing:
Ukraine I guess. We don't really get told: they're just "refugees". As far as voting is concerned, it's pointless - we don't have a right wing party in Ireland (they're all either liberal or left or centrist or some damn thing, and even the so-called "Republican party", Sinn Fein, is left-leaning, as they used to be the political wing of the IRA) so there's no party that's anti-refugee. It's not like England with UKIP or France with yer wan Marie thing, we just don't have that sort of split in our politics. As a result, you don't vote for who supports what: you vote for, as we say here, WIIFM: What's In It For Me? So it's local issues - employment, housing, rents, education, health etc. Therefore, no, I can't say I voted for any party that is pro or anti-refugee. In fact, Irish politics is so skewed and unbalanced that the party I voted for (the abovementioned Sinn Fein) won more seats than any other in our last election, but did not get to form a government because none of the three major parties would work with them, so what we have now is a coaltion of parties nobody voted for, or wanted. So much for democracy!
Quote from: Trollheart on Mar 29, 2024, 08:51 PMUkraine I guess. We don't really get told: they're just "refugees". As far as voting is concerned, it's pointless - we don't have a right wing party in Ireland (they're all either liberal or left or centrist or some damn thing, and even the so-called "Republican party", Sinn Fein, is left-leaning, as they used to be the political wing of the IRA) so there's no party that's anti-refugee. It's not like England with UKIP or France with yer wan Marie thing, we just don't have that sort of split in our politics. As a result, you don't vote for who supports what: you vote for, as we say here, WIIFM: What's In It For Me? So it's local issues - employment, housing, rents, education, health etc. Therefore, no, I can't say I voted for any party that is pro or anti-refugee. In fact, Irish politics is so skewed and unbalanced that the party I voted for (the abovementioned Sinn Fein) won more seats than any other in our last election, but did not get to form a government because none of the three major parties would work with them, so what we have now is a coaltion of parties nobody voted for, or wanted. So much for democracy!
I've heard of Sinn Fein before, and thanks for setting me straight, I thought they were a right-wing party, in a more American sense. I look 'em up on Google and I see the following definition:
"Sinn Féin is an Irish republican and social democratic political party..."
Which as you can imagine, has my my brain parsing the American meanings of those labels together like:
(https://media.tenor.com/-3k-YA9oxpYAAAAM/john-c-reilly-shocked.gif)
Quote from: Trollheart on Mar 29, 2024, 08:51 PMthe party I voted for (the abovementioned Sinn Fein) won more seats than any other in our last election, but did not get to form a government because none of the three major parties would work with them, so what we have now is a coaltion of parties nobody voted for, or wanted. So much for democracy!
So are you telling me that a multi-party government isn't the solution to America's problems, and it would just result in more do-nothing parties bickering with each other while problems remain unsolved and unaddressed? :laughing:
No far-right party but you've already got people spraying anti-refugee graffiti and burning down buildings where they could be housed? And they haven't even arrived yet? You'll have your UKIP soon don't worry.
What happened with that child that was stabbed a few months back when there was all that trouble in Dublin? I remember it kicking off and then didn't hear anything else about it.
Quotehow would you feel were you in my position?
Refugees fine, anyone else no. And you already know where I live and it's history so it's not a hypothetical situation here.
Yeah the thing is in our world Republican means something different. It refers to the party that was set up to fight for Ireland's independence from Britain. Originally, we were given the status of a Free State in 1923, but this was a solution that satisfied nobody (I'm pretty sure we still had to swear allegiance to the Crown) and resulted in an Irish civil war. The Republican party (Sinn Fein) have never been satisfied with the loss of the Six Counties (Ulster basically) to the UK, and have campaigned - originally, with violence hence the IRA, then later with political lobbying, leading to the Good Friday Agreement - for their return. Trouble is, the majority of Ulster is Protestant and therefore consider themselves British, so they don't want to be reunited with us.
Yeah, I undestand what you mean about the slogans and all, but this is done mostly in the name of various right wing groups, but not with any official government sanction. Unfortunately, you'll get these people everywhere, no matter what the political party in power is.
Oh, as far as the child getting stabbed went, well there were riots in the streets (mostly far right groups taking advantage of the situation) with buildings burned, people hassled and the Dail (our seat of government) picketed. It was a night of madness, and cost millions of Euro damage, but once it was over it was kind of back to normal. You know how these things go. As far as the actual incident, I really don't know: I think the riots overshadowed the actual stabbing. I believe it was not any sort of hate crime, but a personal thing. Awful thing, horrible, but an isolated incident. I'll see if I can find out anything further about it.
Definitely not a horrible person or hypocrite Trollheart !
I think being a NIMBY is a natural, instinctive reaction to those kinds of big local changes. Many of my friends/family have adopted the NIMBY position - but mainly in connection with some vast new road schemes, etc. so a little different from your case. How does being a NIMBY usually play out in those cases? Town Hall protests, then grudging acceptance of the inevitable, and finally a kind of barely-notice-the-change-anymore.
So, it partly depends what you're being a nimby about and also how you behave. I'd say grumbling and protesting is fine, but physical damage to property is not. I hope that, as SGR says, any refugees will assimilate over time, even if that seems like an unimaginably far-away future. Any idea of how many, or what ratio of refugees-to-locals is being proposed? One thing I'm confident of is that face-to-face you'll treat any refugee decently, and in the long run that's the attitude which will help the assimilation process.
Please keep us posted on how things develop, and try not to burn your fingers while commiting arson, ok?
Thanks Lisna: can always rely on a sympathetic response from you. I imagine it will probably go ahead - the location of it doesn't really lend itself to violent protests (as I mentioned, the cop shop is just around the corner, and I'm sure they're on alert for anything of the kind), and in all likelihood the bogeymen we see will not surface. Personally, I don't tend to leave the house that often now since Karen passed away, so passing it will not really be an issue for me. I'm just hoping it all works out, and I'd love to think we were a welcoming area, but unfortunately sometimes people just have nothing better to do than hassle people. I do find myself torn, but I definitely don't want to see any damage, violence or injury resulting. My fear would kind of be when/if they move in, how they'll be received, which might have a large impact on how they act once they take possession, as it were.
But don't worry: I won't burn my arse while fingering. What? That's what you said, isn't it?
You'll have the chance to watch in microcosm an issue that is playing out in various places in Europe,and (with changes of personnel) across the world.
I expect you to be out there, standing at the factory gates with your clipboard and microphone, interviewing refugees and locals at least once a week to monitor their attitudes - but be careful where you are putting your fingers :yikes:
Quote from: Trollheart on Mar 29, 2024, 06:39 PMNow, rather to my dismay, I find my views aligning uncomfortably with the naysayers and the far right, and that worries me.
I saw this video, which reminded me of this thread :laughing:
^ That's a funny song, SGR ! I've never heard of this guy, but checked him out on Youtube and found some more songs with clever lyrics. Thanks.
___________________________
Here's news of a NIMBY victory in Hawaii:- https://edition.cnn.com/travel/haiku-stairs-hawaii-removal/index.html
I have to confess that my initial reaction was: why are they spoiling the fun? But the actual islanders seem very united in not wanting the stairs, so perhaps their opinions should carry more weight than my own judgement, made in one minute over coffee from 1000-mile-away and then forgotten.
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Apr 17, 2024, 02:46 PM^ That's a funny song, SGR ! I've never heard of this guy, but checked him out on Youtube and found some more songs with clever lyrics. Thanks.
___________________________
Here's news of a NIMBY victory in Hawaii:- https://edition.cnn.com/travel/haiku-stairs-hawaii-removal/index.html
I have to confess that my initial reaction was: why are they spoiling the fun? But the actual islanders seem very united in not wanting the stairs, so perhaps their opinions should carry more weight than my own judgement, made in one minute over coffee from 1000-mile-away and then forgotten.
I'm somewhat familiar with the Haiku/Stairway to Heaven stairs. I think there's more support for tearing them down from people living directly near the base of the stairs than on other parts of the island (obviously because they're the ones most impacted). Like you, I don't live there, but it would seem to me to make a lot more economic sense to set up access ways, charge admission fees, and force hikers to sign liability waivers upon entrance. It's a big hike up, but it's not particularly dangerous given that the stairs are in relatively good condition for their age and have hand-rails all the way up top. It's going to cost them 2.5 million dollars to remove all the stairs, I think it would cost a lot less to turn it into a proper revenue-boosting tourist attraction. Here's an interesting recent video on the matter giving some pros and cons to both sides of the argument:
I happened to learn about these stairs due to my interest in strange disappearances. A young man named Daylenn Pua hiked the stairs in 2015 - disappearaed - and was never heard from again. There's a bit of sensationalism in his case because one of the photos he sent his family, upon further scrutiny, appears to reveal a man in the bushes. I tend to think he happened to catch a picture of another hiker passing by, and this guy captured had nothing to do with his disappearance/death, but I guess stranger things have happened.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fz5fLlQakAE_Nm6.jpg)
(https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gray/3VIKZ2I2FBAOZILKKYL7WT3YSA.jpg)
Here's a video summary of the case:
Charley Project page for Daylenn:
https://charleyproject.org/case/daylenn-moke-pua
I think we all now want a journal on those disappearing people. Make it so, SGR! Hello? Hello?
Quote from: Trollheart on Apr 17, 2024, 08:12 PMI think we all now want a journal on those disappearing people. Make it so, SGR! Hello? Hello?
I've actually got something akin to a journal on it (only because I have posted most of the cases in the thread), but it's in the lounge section:
The Missing Persons Thread (https://scd.community/index.php?topic=391.0)
Haven't made a post in it in a while though, I'll have to correct that soon. :)
I didn't imagine there'd be an expert on the Hawaii Stairway to Heaven here, SGR! What you say, and the story of Daylenn Pua looks very interesting.
I completely agree with you: it makes a lot of sense for Hawaii to turn the stairway into a slightly more orderly tourist attraction. Mind you, having said that, I've heard that people born in Hawaii are pretty hostile to tourists and settlers from elsewhere now, on account of there being so many of them, buying up the island's houses, etc.
I'll take a look at your Missing Persons thread, because I like these real-life stories: murders, wildlife adventures gone wrong, etc.
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787484347550851168
Thoughts Trolls?
@Trollhearthttps://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2024/0506/1447623-anti-immigration-march-dublin/
As per usual, it's the violent element/right wing groups organising these. It's telling that at the same time a Pro-Palestinian march was taking place and the two traded "chants" (luckily nothing more, as there was a police presence). So what does that tell you? Why would so-called anti-immigrationists have anything against Palestinians who aren't coming to Ireland for sanctuary? The mask slips, and we can see that the real driving force behind this march is right-wing xenophobia and hatred, racism and perhaps zionism? Very odd, you'd have to say, that these people who in general hate the Jews, would actively, as it were, defend them by attacking (only verbally, as I said) their enemies, and essentially supporting them. Just shows you there is no logic to the extreme right.
As for me, I continue to see (and hear) these protests down the road, and now we have up to seventy tents camped out in our city centre, with a major encampment having been broken up by the cops. I guess I'm ambivalent: I still can't say I want the refugees so close to my doorstep, but I couldn't and don't agree with the right-wing anti-immigration rhetoric being spouted by rabble-rousers and agents provacateur on the streets of my city.
(https://y.yarn.co/6f9503d3-74a9-4206-a52f-25e140595ad0_text.gif)
Jesus on a surfboard! Irish Lives Matter? What the actual fuck? I'm ashamed for my countrymen and women. :banghead:
Trollheart opened this thread with a real-life dilemma which imo rolls two issues into one:
i) how to deal with refugees and other immigrants
ii) how to react when changes are imposed on your neighbourhood
Refugees and immigrants pose a really complex moral problem, so I'm happy to divert this thread to a more clear-cut case, where there is a discernable bad guy: Crown Prince Mohamed bin Salman - yes, Jared Kushner's buddy and the guy who ordered a dissident journalist assassinated.
The extremely dubious, super-ambitious, construction project called
The Line is a pet project of the Crown Prince, so no surprise that local NIMBYs are shown no mercy:
Quote[A Saudi coronel charged with land clearance] said the April 2020 order stated ... "whoever continues to resist [eviction] should be killed, so it licensed the use of lethal force against whoever stayed in their home".
[Humble NIMBY]Abdul Rahim al-Huwaiti refused to allow a land registry committee to value his property, and was shot dead by Saudi authorities a day later, during the clearance mission.
source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68945445
So, yeah, by all means, be a NIMBY in Ireland with my blessing, Trollheart, but please don't go to Saudi Arabia and be one there.
You know, it's not the same of course (not state-sanctioned) but as I said, violent methods are used. Places mysteriously burn down only days/weeks/hours after being announced or discovered as being slated as refugee shelters. I know all about SA though, as I tackled its reaction to Covid-19 in that journal. Let's just say, there weren't too many anti-vaxxer protests on the streets of Riyadh, and nobody rushed the royal palace... ::)
Will refugees and NIMBYs ever live in peace with each other? There's a conflict going on all over the world that reminds me of a family squabble: it may sometimes erupt into violence, but it's main characteristic is the way it plays out continuously in small-scale disputes, often turning up at unexpected moments.
Here's what's happening today along the Dublin Canal:- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c72pplgjdkjo
Dublin Canal as it used to be:-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSyqoyKM10k-mbBkaFkQTjEiJMNMTxfQSyayg&s)
Dublin Canal with fencing to prevent asylum seekers from camping along the banks:-
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/3edf/live/be20adb0-1224-11ef-9b3a-23bcecb24897.jpg.webp)
This is not going to win the refugees any sympathy from Dubliners. :(
Didn't work; numbers increasing every day. Standing at about 90 now.
(https://img.rasset.ie/00203da7-800.jpg)
Generally, people - especially those who live along the Grand Canal - are sympathetic to the asylum seekers. Most blame the government for a totally inadequate response. But you're right Lisna: it's fuel to a fire that the right wing groups and anti-immigrants will fan even higer.
They now want to use this place, state land, as an official tented site. Let's see how long before the protesting crowds turn up.
(https://ci3.googleusercontent.com/meips/ADKq_NY5_IwAYCG0hmgyhnOO0z59h8HykUHrzKNc03vXYTUfqR-zLuDIBtCkgHuJo-OmpxNp_RIFBVQt2eQlGA=s0-d-e1-ft#https://img.rasset.ie/00106849-600.jpg)
And they're reducing the social welfare payment for Ukranian refugees who aren't working from 232 Euro to, wait for it, 38! Who can live on that?
The Government has estimated that 27,000 Ukrainian refugees who benefit from temporary protection will receive reduced payments within three months following a decision by the Cabinet.
Ministers have signed off on the plan brought by Taoiseach Simon Harris, Minister for Social Protection Heather Humphreys, Minister for Integration Roderic O'Gorman and Minister for Justice Helen McEntee.
The reduced payments will apply to Ukrainians who do not work and live in what is termed 'State-provided serviced accommodation', such as a hotel where meals are provided.
It will not apply to Ukrainians living in what is termed 'pledged accommodation', such as people living in homes which have been leased to the State.
It also will not apply to Ukrainians who live in State-provided accommodation that is not serviced, such as a converted school building.
Last December, the Government reduced payments to new arrivals - from March - from €232 a week to €38.80.
Now the lower payment will become the baseline for all Ukrainians in such circumstances.
Labour Party leader Ivana Bacik expressed serious concern that this could amount to targeting of older people and women with children who cannot work.
She has called for "clarity" that the new Government policy will be fair and not target the weakest in society.
Taoiseach Simon Harris has defended the approach, saying on his way into Cabinet, that it does not seem sensible that two children from Ukraine in the same school are treated very differently.
Mr Harris said that Ireland "is a compassionate country, but compassion does need to align with common sense".
"It doesn't seem sensible to me that you would have two children from Ukraine in the same school today in a very different system of treatment for one person's family versus the other," Mr Harris said.
In addition to having a "consistency of approach" Mr Harris said it had to be "financially sustainable."
Quote from: Lisnaholic on May 16, 2024, 04:52 PMWill refugees and NIMBYs ever live in peace with each other? There's a conflict going on all over the world that reminds me of a family squabble: it may sometimes erupt into violence, but it's main characteristic is the way it plays out continuously in small-scale disputes, often turning up at unexpected moments.
Here's what's happening today along the Dublin Canal:- https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c72pplgjdkjo
Dublin Canal as it used to be:-
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSyqoyKM10k-mbBkaFkQTjEiJMNMTxfQSyayg&s)
Dublin Canal with fencing to prevent asylum seekers from camping along the banks:-
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/800/cpsprodpb/3edf/live/be20adb0-1224-11ef-9b3a-23bcecb24897.jpg.webp)
This is not going to win the refugees any sympathy from Dubliners. :(
Lisna, you are a wise fellow which is I why voted for you as the best writer in the SCD awards 2023 but JWB narrowly beat you to it. All of you guys will sort this situation out with your analyses and thoughts. And TH, this is yet another very important thread which you created.
One thing I would like to add is that, having followed/studied modern economics and accounting, if certain groups are experiencing a loss in income or getting into more and more debt, then another group is benefiting from that debt and milking it to the max right now.
We are against the wall, as a species in the capitalist system. How much more can we tolerate? Well that depends how many more fences we will accept are erected in some weird circus diffused by the main media, by so-called governments of the day (who as you and I know are pampering to the big banks, grand investors and nobody else).
I don't think it's fair to just smear those who have concerns or objections as being right wing and the like.
What is Sinn Fein's stance on this? They are left wing after all.
It is behind a pay wall but this article in the Irish Times suggests that attitudes towards the migrants is toughest among those who support Sinn Fein:
(https://i.ibb.co/pn79sh0/Screenshot-20240517-160843.jpg)
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/05/17/attitudes-on-immigration-toughest-among-sinn-fein-supporters/
Quote from: jimmy jazz on May 17, 2024, 05:11 PMI don't think it's fair to just smear those who have concerns or objections as being right wing and the like.
What is Sinn Fein's stance on this? They are left wing after all.
It is behind a pay wall but this article in the Irish Times suggests that attitudes towards the migrants is toughest among those who support Sinn Fein:
(https://i.ibb.co/pn79sh0/Screenshot-20240517-160843.jpg)
https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2024/05/17/attitudes-on-immigration-toughest-among-sinn-fein-supporters/
I don't believe I labelled all opposition to immigrants/refugees as being right wing; I just said they're the ones who will both make political capital and sow the seeds of violence over it. I'm sure plenty of left/centrist people have their own views about it too. Issues like this seldom divide directly along political or ideological lines, and of course there will be those who say nothing but think what they want to think. As for Sinn Fein, well I don't know, but since Republicans didn't want Brits here, it's probably fair to imagine they don't fancy sharing our island with "foreigners." Some sort of "Ireland for the Irish" sentiment, maybe?
Then again, the IRA being a terrorist organisation and all, maybe they stick together? :laughing: :laughing: Seriously, I don't know, but as I say I think it's more a sort of broad-ranging opinion that crosses party and religious lines, and I doubt one particular set of opponents can all fall into the one camp. Naturally, Sinn Fein themselves make a big show of being on the "right", which is to say, proper, not right-wing, side, but we all know when a politician is telling lies, right? You watch Judge Judy, yes? ;)
I haven't read every post in this thread, but I'll share some perspective from Norway.
My basic position is generally immigrant and refugee friendly. I believe most of them want a good life here. They want to contribute to society. They sometimes want to enjoy the freedom and opportunities Norwegian society offers them, especially women from countries where women don't have the same opportunities as men. I think we're generally morally obliged to help people.
I've met a lot of refugees and we have immigrant friends, also from Ukraine. In 2015, with the war in Syria and other conflicts, Norway took in a lot of refugees. Hotels were converted. At that time, I collected a bunch of old laptops from the municipality, like from where I worked and from a couple of schools. They were mostly crappy, but I set them up with Lubuntu and we delivered them to the refugee centers. I also gave away my old Xbox 360 and my entire collection of movies and games.. I hope they like Evil Dead.
Around the same time, my wife and my sister had joined a women's society that was mixing Norwegian women with immigrant women and while it was mostly for women, I came along on trips and helped out. We got into contact with a lot of people that way, like we've been invited for Eritrean new years celebration, befriended a Muslim single mom of three kids whom we all had over for Christmas celebrations one year, people from Ethiopia, from Turkey etc. My sister is a professor of Sociology and has been working some with how immigrants are met in the Norwegian system (it's not always easy for them) and through that, we've also helped out a little and it's only a couple of weeks or so since I took some time out of work to help someone out.
A lot of people are sceptical about taking in immigrants or refugees. They may think they're all a certain way and can all be described by certain broad strokes. I think they're often judged unfairly. The people we've met have unanimously been hard working, good people who wanted to make it here.
I sometimes read that they cost too much. I think getting someone who's already an engineer, doctor, knows construction - and mostly just needs to learn the language and then can get straight to work - is a huge boon to society and less costly than growing a new engineer from a baby. Actually, I already know that Norwegians on average take more money from the state than they give back. The education, health and other services are too expensive. People don't pay enough back in taxes to make up for it. In comparison, immigrants can actually potentially become tax payers with relatively little investment. It's a better bet.
I sometimes read they are criminal. They are a little more criminal on average, but I do think this worry stems from fear more than anything else. There's never been any obvious criminal element to the people I've met. I think in some culrure,s, there's more illegal social control and things that don't bleed over to society at large. And yes, as a demographic they are more criminal. But it's also important to remember that crime has gone down steadily for a long time and the streets are safer than ever - and much safer now than, say, they were in the year 2000. When there's news about murder, it's usually full-bred white Norwegians going crazy. There's an element of truth here, but it's basically exaggerated.
At worst, I think being very sceptical and dystopic about immigration could be a self-fulfilling prophecy. We all agree integration is extremely important for immigrants to succeed and to become contributors to society. But it's not their responsibility alone. We create the system that is supposed to help them on their way. We may be the employers who can give them a chance at a job. We can be fellow human beings and accept them into our communities and take care not to talk about them in a way that would cause distance, outsiderness and a feeling of not being accepted. People being overly sceptical will help create barriers to integration, like prevent them from getting Norwegian friends, from getting a job, causing resentment etc. Regardless of how we feel about policy, we need to be accepting and treat people well.
Something I absolutely hate is when brown skinned, young people who are born in Norway don't feel like they're Norwegian and talk about themselves like they're not Norwegian because they feel like they don't belong. Then we've failed them as a society and I think we all have a responsibility to prevent that from happening.
This is a fascinating post, and well done Tore for all you do. However I feel I must point out the differences which appear to exist between Norway and Ireland. Overall, unemployment and homelessness - especially the latter - is high in Ireland, so with regard to refugees getting both social welfare and housing, the question is asked, what about the Irish homeless? The financial crash of 2008 left many ordinary people unable to pay their mortgage, and the banks repossessing their homes, leaving them either on the street or living in one hotel room. People in this position see, perhaps, immigrants, asylum-seekers and/or refugees being treated a certain way, while they seem to be forgotten, and resentment foments.
You say it's cheaper or better to hire a qualified, immigrant engineer for example than grow one from a baby, but again here we run into the problem, trumpeted by anti-immigrationists for decades if not centuries, they're coming over here, taking our jobs. And in this case, you can say they are. A man or woman with an engineering degree may be unable to secure a job because it's been given to someone not born in Ireland. This, again, causes resentment.
I'm sure most refugees are lovely people, but contrary to what you say happens in Norway (and this is not to suggest Irish people don't commit crime, of course they do) we're hearing more and more that this murder or that robbery or a rape or abduction or scam are being perpetrated by people from outside of the country. Only quite recently we had the callous and unprovoked murder of a young schoolteacher by a Polish immigrant. It doesn't help. If all is rosy in the garden, great: people will be a lot more accepting. But when crime figures start to include a lot of Syrians, Ukranians, Eastern Europeans etc., people start questioning the wisdom of allowing more in.
Also take into account that Ireland is a very small country - probably less than half the size of Britain in area, and with a population of less than a tenth of theirs - with a limited social welfare system and a serious lack of housing, a broken health system and still struggling with the legacy of sectarianism, and you can see, in one way, why the current buzz phrase going around here now is "Ireland is full." I don't believe that's the case, it's just a handy excuse, but you do have to ask, if a government can't house its own citizens, how can it hope to house massive influxes of non-citizens, with more arriving every day?
Quote from: Saulaac on May 17, 2024, 12:29 AMLisna, you are a wise fellow which is I why voted for you as the best writer in the SCD awards 2023 but JWB narrowly beat you to it. All of you guys will sort this situation out with your analyses and thoughts. And TH, this is yet another very important thread which you created.
^ :love: Thanks for that kind comment, and thanks for the vote too. Next year you'll get my vote for Poster Who Clearly Has Interesting Opinions And Should Post More Often.
Quote from: jimmy jazz on May 17, 2024, 05:11 PMI don't think it's fair to just smear those who have concerns or objections as being right wing and the like.
What is Sinn Fein's stance on this? They are left wing after all.
^ Your post about Irish attitudes to refugees is very interesting, jimmyjazz. I suspect Trollheart is right when he says that opinion is not clear-cut into pro- and anti- party lines. If it's anything like England, most people want a solution that is fair to both locals and immigrants, even if they don't know how that will be achieved.
Thanks for being our eyes on the ground on this issue, Trollheart, and showing us how the Grand Canal is at the moment. At a glance, this looks like a good solution at a local level: re-purposing government land that's standing unused. If there are NIMBYs, it looks like they'd be some distance away, and in actual fact might even appreciate a bit more activity in their neighbourhood, thus becoming IMBYs as they ask for In My Back Yard, please:-
Quote from: Trollheart on May 16, 2024, 11:10 PMThey now want to use this place, state land, as an official tented site. Let's see how long before the protesting crowds turn up.
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Of course the allocation of government funding is going to remain controvertial, with many people taking the understandable attitude that the local homeless population should be prioritized. That's what made me notice this detail, Trollheart:-
QuoteAnd they're reducing the social welfare payment for Ukranian refugees who aren't working from 232 Euro to, wait for it, 38! Who can live on that?
The reduced payments will apply to Ukrainians who do not work and live in what is termed 'State-provided serviced accommodation', such as a hotel where meals are provided.
This idea of migrants living in hotels, meals provided, is an image that doesn't sit well with a lot of local people, I imagine, who have their own battles with poverty and hunger. :(
Sorry, TH and Guybrush: I didn't see either of your latest posts, in which you cover much the same ground as me, but with more detail and eloquence.
That's noble of you and your family, Guybrush, to be lending a helping hand to the new-comers in your area. Those activities you mention must be doing so much towards a smooth transition for new arrivals, which in turn will reduce criminality and division. You guys would totally be the heroes in that growing genre of books that I have been dipping into: real life stories of refugees. Here are two good ones:-
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1657128955i/60099889.jpg) (https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/QqwAAOSwUt5iI5Ab/s-l400.jpg)
You know something, Lisna, you would be surprised. I don't for a moment imagine there aren't people gathering followers on Twitter or X or Z or whatever the hell Musk wants it called now, Facebook or Meta or Crystal Meth or whatever Zuck wants to call it now, marshalling opposition and arranging protesters to head to a godforsaken wasteland to protest against its being used. It's not even that these people think, oh that factory/building/abandoned school etc could be used for this, they just don't want it used for that. To their minds, I feel, they'd be happier buildings remain empty rather than be used as refugee centres. So sadly, once it's on the island of Ireland I think these people will have a problem with any area being slated for use.
As for the hotels, well yes accommodation is provided but I don't know about meals. I'm sure they're not letting them starve, but at the same time I doubt the refugees can order up room service whenever they want it, so I imagine that social welfare payment (soon to be cut by about seven-eighths) has to go towards feeding themselves and their families. You won't get much at Just Eat or Deliveroo or even MacDonalds for 38 Euro! Maybe you might manage two, three meals for two or three people, once a day, but you'd be stretching it. I just don't see how they expect anyone, Irish or not, to make it on such a piddling amount. I mean, my little bit of shopping costs that every week, and that's before I pay rent and utilities, phone, internet, Sky and various other bills.
There's definitely a faction here - small I think, but loud and growing - that would smile very much on a proposal to deport every immigrant and refugee from Ireland. That will never happen, but that's the depth of hatred these people have. You could almost say they resent these unfortunates' right to exist at all. Shades of Germany in 1933, no?
Oh, and before anyone says it, I know.
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