Did the Hamas massacre and its aftermath affect your life in any way beyond watching the news? Genuinely curious. Whatever "side" you're on, it doesn't matter.
It might seem inconsequential but the way that it affected my life is by being bombarded with imagery that has taken a toll on my mental health. I believe they call it trauma something. I heard the technical name for it but it's affecting everyone even children at school have to deal with it.
I don't watch or read news but I'm aware of it. I stopped with the news during the pandemic and never went back.
Quote from: Hope on Jan 30, 2024, 04:13 PMI don't watch or read news but I'm aware of it. I stopped with the news during the pandemic and never went back.
I wish I could stop watching the news but I'm so used to it and a political junkie/faux debate lord.
As an empath, it's really difficult for me to watch the news. I know that's selfish but my mental health matters too.
QuoteAs an empath
Love it. I'm gonna use this in every text now. Who's to say I'm not one.
More so i meant that i cant help but feel attached to people in bad situations on the news but appreciate the sarsasm, asshat
I know you're a sensitive guy and I respect that. It's just the idea of me introducing myself as an empath is too funny.
Quote from: jadis on Jan 31, 2024, 01:35 AMI know you're a sensitive guy and I respect that. It's just the idea of me introducing myself as an empath is too funny.
Dont worry it's funny to everyone else too
I'll write a book one day titled Are You an Empath or Just Codependent?
It doesn't affect me much currently beyond bumming me out occasionally, like when reading about how many children have been killed or have lost limbs.
Quote from: Guybrush on Jan 31, 2024, 06:37 AMIt doesn't affect me much currently beyond bumming me out occasionally, like when reading about how many children have been killed or have lost limbs.
It's worse on social media actually seeing the footage of dead babies and seeing the blood and gore surrounding children. I have this one friend that posts those type of images non stop. When I accidentally autoplay into her IG stories. I have to hurry up and tap through it all because she has been posting this imagery non stop daily since Oct. 7th.
What if we gave the people of Gaza casinos?
Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Feb 02, 2024, 10:07 AMWhat if we gave the people of Gaza casinos?
In what buildings? It is all rubble.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Jan 31, 2024, 11:50 AMIt's worse on social media actually seeing the footage of dead babies and seeing the blood and gore surrounding children. I have this one friend that posts those type of images non stop. When I accidentally autoplay into her IG stories. I have to hurry up and tap through it all because she has been posting this imagery non stop daily since Oct. 7th.
I think it's important to be aware of these things, but I also think it's important to protect oneself, especially from getting depressed over things that we have miniscule or no control over.
It sounds like your friend has a problem with doomscrolling. My wife has too (and is aware). As I'm not on Facebook, I mostly just see footage published on online news sites. I think that's enough..
The Guardian Science Weekly recently had an episode called How to stop doomscrolling and reclaim your brain (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhlZ3VhcmRpYW4uY29tL3NjaWVuY2Uvc2VyaWVzL3NjaWVuY2UvcG9kY2FzdC54bWw/episode/NjVhNjY5ODU4ZjA4YmY2ZGRhNjk0ZDZk?ep=14).
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 02, 2024, 04:00 PMI think it's important to be aware of these things, but I also think it's important to protect oneself, especially from getting depressed over things that we have miniscule or no control over.
It sounds like your friend has a problem with doomscrolling. My wife has too (and is aware). As I'm not on Facebook, I mostly just see footage published on online news sites. I think that's enough..
The Guardian Science Weekly recently had an episode called How to stop doomscrolling and reclaim your brain (https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cudGhlZ3VhcmRpYW4uY29tL3NjaWVuY2Uvc2VyaWVzL3NjaWVuY2UvcG9kY2FzdC54bWw/episode/NjVhNjY5ODU4ZjA4YmY2ZGRhNjk0ZDZk?ep=14).
Well she is half Palestinian and 1/4 Mexican and 1/4 some Indigenous.
So it makes sense why she would post about it so much. She's also an empath and maybe thinks by doing this on social media it is helping? Idk.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Jan 31, 2024, 11:50 AMIt's worse on social media actually seeing the footage of dead babies and seeing the blood and gore surrounding children. I have this one friend that posts those type of images non stop. When I accidentally autoplay into her IG stories. I have to hurry up and tap through it all because she has been posting this imagery non stop daily since Oct. 7th.
Since Oct 7? Did she post any of the Hamas snuff they shared on that day?
Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Feb 02, 2024, 10:07 AMWhat if we gave the people of Gaza casinos?
Gambling is a good drug but no match for the stuff they're frying their brains with
Quote from: jadis on Feb 02, 2024, 04:54 PMGambling is a good drug but no match for the stuff they're frying their brains with
I'm just saying it'd be a nice little gesture.
Quote from: jadis on Feb 02, 2024, 04:43 PMSince Oct 7? Did she post any of the Hamas snuff they shared on that day?
Nope. At least I don't think so. I skip through everything she posts so I don't look into it long enough to see what side she's posting from but at the end of the day does it even fucking matter? People are dying in mass numbers. What side they are on doesn't matter civilian casaulities are way too fucking high.
It matters on a thousand different levels. This brutal, horrific and tragic war started with jihadists butchering Israeli civilians, with supporters of the "Palestinian cause" the world over ecstatic.
Israel's military response is aimed at eradicating a jihadist group that went into unprecedented efforts to hide behind civilian population. There's a huge difference between a military that's willing to accept civilian casualties to eliminate terrorists and terrorists whose stated goal (reiterated on numerous occasions during this war) is to eliminate Israel.
One of the astonishing features of the "Palestinian cause" is the unwillingness to concede they have an active part in their predicament. Either by them or their supporters. Every time it begins with the righteous fervor of "resistance" and then shifts into pure victimhood. Zero reflection on the causal link between the two.
The images coming out of Gaza are horrifying. But wallowing in pure victimhood will only assure another round of this.
Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Feb 02, 2024, 09:00 PMI'm just saying it'd be a nice little gesture.
I'll pass it on to my contacts in the IDF (students in the reserves)
It worked for the US and our lil territory and treaties troubles
Trouble is, my best contact is doing reserve service on the Lebanese border. Maybe he can open a couple of whore houses for the Hezbollah boys?
Potato, potato
Lol apparently the casino solution had been tried already in the West Bank... and it worked for a couple of years until it didn't (once Arafat decided he had enough "peace talks" at Camp David and more or less called the second intifada)
A brief summary
https://greenolivetours.com/the-tale-of-jerichos-oasis-casino/
And the longer article
https://scholarship.richmond.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=global
QuoteThis article focuses on the Oasis Casino -the largest private investment project to be undertaken in the Palestinian territories and the centerpiece of the hoped-for economic revitalization of this area -to provide an understanding of why economic development as it occurred during the first seven years of the peace process will not lead to a lasting peace.
So a great point, touché. Buuuuuut if you read why Arafat decided to blow up the Camp David talks (basically to avoid compromising on a state comprising WB and Gaza, which would have foreclosed "the right of return" i.e. the Palestinian claim on all of Israel) then my point that they prefer getting fucked up on stronger stuff still stands...
Quote from: jadis on Feb 02, 2024, 10:37 PMThis brutal, horrific and tragic war started with jihadists butchering Israeli civilians,
evil israelis have been terrorizing innocent Palestinians for years in the process of stealing their land
Israel's response has been cruel and way out of proportion.
As you may know, South Africa has accused Israel of genocide and the International Court of Justice judged on the case on Jan 26. Anyone can download and read the court document from their site (https://www.icj-cij.org/home).
Some interesting quotes from it:
"The Court notes that the military operation being conducted by Israel following the attack of 7 October 2023 has resulted in a large number of deaths and injuries, as well as the massive destruction of homes, the forcible displacement of the vast majority of the population, and extensive damage to civilian infrastructure. While figures relating to the Gaza Strip cannot be independently verified, recent information indicates that 25,700 Palestinians have been killed, over 63,000 injuries have been reported, over 360,000 housing units have been destroyed or partially damaged and approximately 1.7 million persons have been internally displaced (see United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel reported impact, Day 109 (24 Jan. 2024))."
And:
"The Court takes note, in this regard, of the statement made by the United Nations Under-
Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, Mr Martin Griffiths, on 5 January 2024:
Gaza has become a place of death and despair.
. . . Families are sleeping in the open as temperatures plummet. Areas where civilians were told to relocate for their safety have come under bombardment. Medical facilities are under relentless attack. The few hospitals that are partially functional are overwhelmed with trauma cases, critically short of all supplies, and inundated by desperate people seeking safety. A public health disaster is unfolding. Infectious diseases are spreading in overcrowded shelters as sewers spill over. Some 180 Palestinian women are giving birth daily amidst this chaos. People are facing the highest levels of food insecurity ever recorded. Famine is around the corner.
For children in particular, the past 12 weeks have been traumatic: No food. No
water. No school. Nothing but the terrifying sounds of war, day in and day out. Gaza has simply become uninhabitable. Its people are witnessing daily threats to their very existence — while the world watches on." (OCHA, "UN relief chief: The war in Gaza must end", Statement by Martin Griffiths, Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, 5 Jan. 2024.)",
"Following a mission to North Gaza, the World Health Organization (WHO) reported that, as of 21 December 2023:
"An unprecedented 93% of the population in Gaza is facing crisis levels of hunger, with insufficient food and high levels of malnutrition. At least 1 in 4 households are facing 'catastrophic conditions': experiencing an extreme lack of food and starvation and having resorted to selling off their possessions and other extreme measures to afford a simple meal. Starvation, destitution and death are evident." (WHO, "Lethal combination of hunger and disease to lead to more deaths in Gaza", 21 Dec. 2023; see also World Food Programme, "Gaza on the brink as one in four people face extreme hunger", 20 Dec. 2023.)"
I can provide more quotes because this document goes on and on.
The Israeli party did not successfully defend their case and the Court has ordered the Israeli government a rather long list of things like to stop killing Palestinians, persecute incitements to genocide and to provide humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza.
Quote from: Mindy on Feb 03, 2024, 03:56 AMevil israelis have been terrorizing innocent Palestinians for years in the process of stealing their land
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 03, 2024, 09:45 AMIsrael's response has been cruel and way out of proportion.
As you may know, South Africa has accused Israel of genocide and the International Court of Justice judged on the case on Jan 26. Anyone can download and read the court document from their site (https://www.icj-cij.org/home).
Some interesting quotes from it:
"The Court notes that the military operation being conducted by Israel following the attack of 7 October 2023 has resulted in a large number of deaths and injuries, as well as the massive destruction of homes, the forcible displacement of the vast majority of the population, and extensive damage to civilian infrastructure. While figures relating to the Gaza Strip cannot be independently verified, recent information indicates that 25,700 Palestinians have been killed, over 63,000 injuries have been reported, over 360,000 housing units have been destroyed or partially damaged and approximately 1.7 million persons have been internally displaced (see United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), Hostilities in the Gaza Strip and Israel reported impact, Day 109 (24 Jan. 2024))."
And:
"The Court takes note, in this regard, of the statement made by the United Nations Under-
Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, Mr Martin Griffiths, on 5 January 2024:
Gaza has become a place of death and despair.
. . . Families are sleeping in the open as temperatures plummet. Areas where civilians were told to relocate for their safety have come under bombardment. Medical facilities are under relentless attack. The few hospitals that are partially functional are overwhelmed with trauma cases, critically short of all supplies, and inundated by desperate people seeking safety. A public health disaster is unfolding. Infectious diseases are spreading in overcrowded shelters as sewers spill over. Some 180 Palestinian women are giving birth daily amidst this chaos. People are facing the highest levels of food insecurity ever recorded. Famine is around the corner.
For children in particular, the past 12 weeks have been traumatic: No food. No
water. No school. Nothing but the terrifying sounds of war, day in and day out. Gaza has simply become uninhabitable. Its people are witnessing daily threats to their very existence — while the world watches on." (OCHA, "UN relief chief: The war in Gaza must end", Statement by Martin Griffiths, Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs and Emergency Relief Coordinator, 5 Jan. 2024.)",
"Following a mission to North Gaza, the World Health Organization (WHO) reported that, as of 21 December 2023:
"An unprecedented 93% of the population in Gaza is facing crisis levels of hunger, with insufficient food and high levels of malnutrition. At least 1 in 4 households are facing 'catastrophic conditions': experiencing an extreme lack of food and starvation and having resorted to selling off their possessions and other extreme measures to afford a simple meal. Starvation, destitution and death are evident." (WHO, "Lethal combination of hunger and disease to lead to more deaths in Gaza", 21 Dec. 2023; see also World Food Programme, "Gaza on the brink as one in four people face extreme hunger", 20 Dec. 2023.)"
I can provide more quotes because this document goes on and on.
The Israeli party did not successfully defend their case and the Court has ordered the Israeli government a rather long list of things like to stop killing Palestinians, persecute incitements to genocide and to provide humanitarian aid to civilians in Gaza.
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/7WCfTREZSdQ/hqdefault.jpg)
Quote from: jadis on Feb 02, 2024, 10:37 PMIt matters on a thousand different levels. This brutal, horrific and tragic war started with jihadists butchering Israeli civilians, with supporters of the "Palestinian cause" the world over ecstatic.
As long as it's eye for an eye you are cool with it.
Yeah slaughter all the women and children that have nothing to do with a terrorist organization. Basically fuck them they shouldn't have been born or lived in that area.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Feb 03, 2024, 12:35 PMAs long as it's eye for an eye you are cool with it.
Yeah slaughter all the women and children that have nothing to do with a terrorist organization. Basically fuck them they shouldn't have been born or lived in that area.
This is pure theology: just the most basic version of the suspicion of Jews deeply ingrained in secular-Christian cultures. The less naïve at least avoid spelling it out.
Pursuing a "proportional" response in the village idiot sense of the word, in which it's been employed here, would mean to do an Oct 7: to deliberately slaughter, rape, mutilate, burn alive civilians. For a non-village idiot discussion of "collective punishment," "proportionality" and the rest of the accumulated secular Christian legalstic wisdom in the context of Israel see this (https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/israel-zionism/2024/01/a-special-dictionary-for-israel/).
Israel has not only a right but a literal obligation to prosecute a war against a group committed to its elimination. This same group has taken unprecedented efforts to embed itself among and under civilian population. That's part of the tragedy of this war.
War is hell. But Hamas foreclosed all non-military options.
@jadis maybe take another look at your posting and rhetoric. Is your ambition here to be a basic troll?
It seems like a complete waste of time to engage with you on anything.
@jadis all of your posts are intellectually dishonest. I'm done even interacting with you after this last post of mines. You are boring as fuck.
Israel's response to Oct 7th is way over blown compared to what happened to them. They were chomping at the bits to have an excuse to be heavy handed with their response and they loved that Oct. 7th gave them the opportunity to respond but they went completely overboard. Now they are flooding areas underground claiming that it's to drown out the tunnel system but what it is doing in reality is degrading the structure of the soil so that more buildings will collapse without proper foundation. Israel is evil as fuck.
QuoteNow they are flooding areas underground claiming that it's to drown out the tunnel system but what it is doing in reality is degrading the structure of the soil so that more buildings will collapse without proper foundation. Israel is evil as fuck.
Can you unpack this one for me? The one aspect of warfare that we can all agree Israel has shown itself to be pretty good at is collapsing buildings in Gaza through the old fashioned method of bombing the fuck out of them. Why would it need to "degrade the structure of the soil" to achieve that?
Also I take it you believe that Hamas's network of underground tunnels is not a thing? Not a serious factor? Don't follow this one at all.
Quote from: jadis on Feb 03, 2024, 04:44 PMCan you unpack this one for me? The one aspect of warfare that we can all agree Israel has shown itself to be pretty good at is collapsing buildings in Gaza through the old fashioned method of bombing the fuck out of them. Why would it need to "degrade the structure of the soil" to achieve that?
Also I take it you believe that Hamas's network of underground tunnels is not a thing? Not a serious factor? Don't follow this one at all.
Israel is flooding Palestine with sea water... they say it's because of Hamas tunnels but the truth is experts are saying this is a war crime because it degrades the soil and will cause buildings above to collapse, as well as creating ecological damage making it inhabitable. In the end no one will live there.
That's why they are doing it. I'm not denying that Hamas has intricate tunnels underground. The fact of the matter is they want it to be damn near impossible to rebuild in that same area again. Evil shit.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Feb 03, 2024, 08:55 PMIsrael is flooding Palestine with sea water... they say it's because of Hamas tunnels but the truth is experts are saying this is a war crime because it degrades the soil and will cause buildings above to collapse, as well as creating ecological damage making it inhabitable. In the end no one will live there.
That's why they are doing it. I'm not denying that Hamas has intricate tunnels underground. The fact of the matter is they want it to be damn near impossible to rebuild in that same area again. Evil shit.
I'm not surprised they're saying it. We also know Israel did a climate change (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/09/emissions-gaza-israel-hamas-war-climate-change) in Gaza, as well as a capitalism (https://twitter.com/JCAndersonNYC/status/1746908368021725630). Not just the genocide and soil degradation.
Neither am I surprised by your absolute confidence about the intentions of a country you know nothing about except that it's ontologically evil.
You say though Israel is flooding "Palestine". I thought it was the Gaza Strip. Want to explain why it's Palestine? What is Palestine?
QuoteIsrael's response to Oct 7th is way over blown compared to what happened to them.
Thousands of jihadists murdered over a thousand Israelis, civilians for the most part, with gleeful relish, in the worst antisemitic atrocity since the Holocaust. They took some 250 others hostage. Israel's response is to do whatever it takes to eradicate the jihadist group that did it to them and that wants to do it again and again and again until there's no one left to murder. Eradicating them is the only reasonable and moral response.
Hamas could've ended it long time ago by releasing the hostages and surrendering. It keeps rejecting Israeli offers of a ceasefire and hostage deal.
If Israel wanted to kill all Gazans this war would've ended on Oct 8.
Quote from: jadis on Feb 05, 2024, 12:05 AMIf Israel wanted to kill all Gazans this war would've ended on Oct 8.
They sure have a funny way of show that 1k Israelis dead compared tens of thousands Palestinian civilians in the name of eradicating a terrorist group that will just create a power vacuum and another group will pop up to replace them. As if this conflict hasn't been going on for decades as it is.
They had one temporary ceasefire and released a few hostages but near the end both sides went back on their deals so the fighting continued. Israel has been adamant about not wanting a ceasefire because they are so obsessed with wiping out Hamas. They dont care about civilians anymore on both sides. Zionists just want to wipe out that group at all costs. If their own people die so be it. Casualties of war is their mentality. You make it seem like I said all jews are evil. No just Zionists and the IDF and what they continue to do to civilians.
You're not wrong,
@DJChameleon .
As I posted, and published by the International Court of Justice; 25,700 Palestinians have been killed, over 63,000 injuries have been reported, over 360,000 housing units have been destroyed or partially damaged and approximately 1.7 million persons have been internally displaced. An unprecedented 93% of the population in Gaza is facing crisis levels of hunger.
A terrorist attack is answered with an attack on close to two million people. It is disproportionate.
You won't convince Jadis of this, though.
Quote from: DJChameleon on Feb 05, 2024, 03:33 AMThey sure have a funny way of show that 1k Israelis dead compared tens of thousands Palestinian civilians in the name of eradicating a terrorist group that will just create a power vacuum and another group will pop up to replace them. As if this conflict hasn't been going on for decades as it is.
They had one temporary ceasefire and released a few hostages but near the end both sides went back on their deals so the fighting continued. Israel has been adamant about not wanting a ceasefire because they are so obsessed with wiping out Hamas. They dont care about civilians anymore on both sides. Zionists just want to wipe out that group at all costs. If their own people die so be it. Casualties of war is their mentality. You make it seem like I said all jews are evil. No just Zionists and the IDF and what they continue to do to civilians.
Israel's goal is that Hamas 2.0 doesn't have the infrastructure gathered and built by Hamas since 2007: it will be a Hamas without the rocket launchers, without the weapon factories, without the tunnels through which weapons can be smuggled in from Egypt etc.
Can you spell out what you think "Zionists" are? What is the difference between Israelis and Zionists?
The famous "proportionality" (https://mosaicmagazine.com/observation/israel-zionism/2024/01/a-special-dictionary-for-israel/)... We keep insisting on using it colloquially (comparing tolls) when it means a different thing.
QuotePerhaps the most misused term from the universe of the laws of war is proportionality. Every military action that Israel has conducted in my lifetime has been held to be "disproportionate." Normally the case is made by comparing casualty statistics, and indeed in all of Israel's wars the number of Israeli casualties has always been significantly lower than those of its enemies. It is rare that the side that wins a war has higher casualties than the side that loses, and Israel has for the most part emerged with the upper hand in all of its military confrontations with its Arab neighbors, even those that began with what for Israel were the worst possible opening conditions.
When modern armies face guerrillas or terrorist organizations, the death toll also tends to be lopsided, even in cases where the modern armies are defeated. The morality of the cause is rarely assessed by the body count, nor is the legality of the means employed. The Allies killed many more German and Japanese combatants than they lost themselves, and many, many more civilians. Even more lopsided have been the casualty counts in wars conducted by Western states since the end of the cold war: in ex-Yugoslavia, Iraq, Panama, Mali, Sierra Leone, and elsewhere.
In any case, the comparative casualty count doesn't have much to do with the legal definition of proportionality, which, as the International Committee of the Red Cross spells out, requires that "the effects of the means and methods of warfare used must not be disproportionate to the military advantage sought."
This legal concept is certainly confusing and far from intuitive. To an untrained ear, it really does sound like it might be a matter of comparing casualty counts; even to a trained ear, the concept is difficult to work with. Collateral damage from a military operation must be proportional to the intended military outcome—but what is the desired proportion? The easy examples that are usually offered in legal analyses—wiping out a village to locate one fighter is obviously not proportional—look nothing like the dilemmas that commanders in the field face. What to do about a weapons facility hidden in a home? Should soldiers pursue attackers not in uniform in a residential area? Should a high-value military target located somewhere with reliable but not certain intelligence that no civilians are nearby be attacked? What about crucial military infrastructure that also has a secondary civil application? Resolving these dilemmas is difficult; and with intelligence that might be faulty and the general fog of war and a lack of sympathy for the side they are fighting against, they might look very different in a reckoning after hostilities end, outside the theatre of combat, by a nonpartisan observer.
Quote from: jadis on Feb 02, 2024, 10:37 PMIt matters on a thousand different levels. This brutal, horrific and tragic war started with jihadists butchering Israeli civilians, with supporters of the "Palestinian cause" the world over ecstatic.
Israel's military response is aimed at eradicating a jihadist group that went into unprecedented efforts to hide behind civilian population. There's a huge difference between a military that's willing to accept civilian casualties to eliminate terrorists and terrorists whose stated goal (reiterated on numerous occasions during this war) is to eliminate Israel.
One of the astonishing features of the "Palestinian cause" is the unwillingness to concede they have an active part in their predicament. Either by them or their supporters. Every time it begins with the righteous fervor of "resistance" and then shifts into pure victimhood. Zero reflection on the causal link between the two.
The images coming out of Gaza are horrifying. But wallowing in pure victimhood will only assure another round of this.
I get where you are coming from but allow me to retort. It's fair and true to say that Hamas are worse than Israel and more blatantly murderous in their ideology and intention. It's also just as obvious that they're not even close to as capable of wreaking the sort of havoc and destruction as the IDF is. So it is this mutually reinforcing disparity in both tactics and capabilities which defines the nature of this conflict.
One prime example of this would be the constant discussion over Hamas using human shields. This is the usual retort to any reference to the high body count on the Palestinian side.
Now to be clear I'm perfectly willing to concede they use human shields. It's just that if you really consider the nature of asymmetric warfare that is being waged, it's very obvious why. Any sort of armed resistance that faces off against a better armed and better funded occupying force uses subterfuge and deception to make up for that disparity and use other forms of leverage that they have to tilt the playing field back in their direction.
You can have for example in Afghanistan the mujahideen fighters who not only used the terrain to their advantage to launch ambush attacks against the Soviet occupiers, but also relied in the Soviets never knowing who exactly the enemy was. The same dynamic existed roughly in Vietnam and Iraq. Although there are to be sure differences to be found between these conflicts, this one basic trend does hold true.
And then you have to consider the added variable of the attitude of locals and those sympathetic to them abroad toward the occupying force also being a powerful tool to be weaponized by the rebel factions. This was undoubtedly true in Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion, where Muslim fighters around the world were inspired to go and fight the Soviet occupiers. But it's even more true in Palestine. Hamas derives whatever credibility they do have from precisely the kind of footage they released on Oct 7.
Not only that they are perceived as the least front of resistance capable of doing any actual damage to the enemy, but also they rely on the response. They rely on the IDF to come in and obliterate Gaza and remind the local population of why they support them. And just like Al Qaeda wanted the American response in Afghanistan (Iraq was just a freebie we decided to throw them on top it), Hamas wanted Israel's response in Gaza. Maybe they both got more than they bargained for and brought on their own demise. But does that mean we won? Mission accomplished?
What is the game plan for Gaza after Hamas is eradicated? The podcast you had e listen to insisted that this is the wrong time to ask this question. I'm sorry but this question needs to be first and foremost in your mind if you are at all serious about presenting this war as a means for long term peace and stability. The only real reason to insist on not asking it yet is because you know you don't have a palatable answer.
Getting back to the idea of which side is more blatantly genocidal vs which side is actually capable of genocide.. which scenario seems more likely at the moment? Ask yourself that really. Because out of all the speculative outcomes in Gaza, an actual expulsion of the native population would probably serve Israel's shrewd security concerns better than anything else I've heard floated out there.
Netanyahu has made a point of rejecting even any semblance of lip service toward a two state solution that his American benefactors try to put in his mouth, so I don't know what to tell you. They are specifically going with the shoot first, ask questions later approach and then expecting our undying sympathy and support for whatever they need to do. I'm not sold.
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 05, 2024, 08:02 AMYou're not wrong, @DJChameleon .
As I posted, and published by the International Court of Justice; 25,700 Palestinians have been killed, over 63,000 injuries have been reported, over 360,000 housing units have been destroyed or partially damaged and approximately 1.7 million persons have been internally displaced. An unprecedented 93% of the population in Gaza is facing crisis levels of hunger.
A terrorist attack is answered with an attack on close to two million people. It is disproportionate.
You won't convince Jadis of this, though.
to be fair to jadis, the idea isn't that you kill x amount in exchange for the x amount of people who were killed in a terrorist attack. That's ridiculous and barbaric. It would be that you have a certain military objective you consider vital for your security and are willing to take on x amount of potential deaths as a result. But the rub is what is that military objective and is it worth it?
Quote from: jadis on Feb 05, 2024, 12:05 AMI'm not surprised they're saying it. We also know Israel did a climate change (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/09/emissions-gaza-israel-hamas-war-climate-change) in Gaza, as well as a capitalism (https://twitter.com/JCAndersonNYC/status/1746908368021725630). Not just the genocide and soil degradation.
Neither am I surprised by your absolute confidence about the intentions of a country you know nothing about except that it's ontologically evil.
You say though Israel is flooding "Palestine". I thought it was the Gaza Strip. Want to explain why it's Palestine? What is Palestine?
But the experts!
What I would like to know is why Biden is deploying troops to Jordan under the guise of caring about the lives of 3 national guard members.
I'm sure the geographical leverage is unrelated.
Quote from: degrassi.knoll on Feb 06, 2024, 04:25 AMWhat I would like to know is why Biden is deploying troops to Jordan under the guise of caring about the lives of 3 national guard members.
I'm sure the geographical leverage is unrelated.
The situation is continuing to escalate between Iran and all their proxies Vs team America. Ww3 is the last fuckin thing sleepy joe needs to instill confidence in his leadership in the run up to this election, but we're slowly meandering toward it like a roomba vacuum.
Quote from: Jwb on Feb 06, 2024, 05:05 AMThe situation is continuing to escalate between Iran and all their proxies Vs team America. Ww3 is the last fuckin thing sleepy joe needs to instill confidence in his leadership in the run up to this election, but we're slowly meandering toward it like a roomba vacuum.
Biden himself being a slowly meandering roomba for all this time would explain a lot
Quote from: Jwb on Feb 05, 2024, 10:37 PMto be fair to jadis, the idea isn't that you kill x amount in exchange for the x amount of people who were killed in a terrorist attack. That's ridiculous and barbaric. It would be that you have a certain military objective you consider vital for your security and are willing to take on x amount of potential deaths as a result. But the rub is what is that military objective and is it worth it?
The military objective is linked to money it always is.
To me, it looks like there might be more than just a military objective being pursued.
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 06, 2024, 04:03 PMTo me, it looks like there might be more than just a military objective being pursued.
They want to establish a separate canal way that goes through Gaza that's why.
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 06, 2024, 04:03 PMTo me, it looks like there might be more than just a military objective being pursued.
as in like they just want revenge or collective punishment? Because I think you can possibly make that argument, but you would definitely have to get more specific than just comparing the number of dead on one side vs the other. Any time a first world military tries to invade and occupy another country or territory, the deaths are always disproportionately in the side of the people being occupied. This is even more true for the initial bombing campaign.
Quote from: Jwb on Feb 06, 2024, 07:24 PMas in like they just want revenge or collective punishment?
I was thinking more like displacing the Palestinian people and taking complete control of Gaza. Looking past any bad blood and better security, there are f.ex. gas reserves off the coast of the Gaza Strip and just better access to the mediterranean coast could be a big get.
That would ofc make it an attack on civilians and not just Hamas (with civilians being claimed as collateral).
That would fall under the category of a military objective. Specifically the oldest military objective in the book: conquest.
I don't mean to use the phrase military objective to confer a sense of legitimacy or otherwise. Russia has clear military objectives in Ukraine, for example. My point is when you decide on whether a war is worth it, the vital thing to keep in mind is weighing the value of your objective vs the potential death and destruction.
Quote from: Jwb on Feb 06, 2024, 08:02 PMThat would fall under the category of a military objective. Specifically the oldest military objective in the book: conquest.
I don't mean to use the word military objective to confer a sense of legitimacy or otherwise. Russia has clear military objectives in Ukraine, for example.
Alright, well.
I thought of it more as they say their military objective is to eradicate Hamas and ensure a safe border, but their motives may also be more geopolitical. The two aren't mutually exclusive, so that's fine.
Regardless of what you call any such goal, I'd say it looks disproportionate to displace and force into hunger and crisis 1,7 million people to attack an organisation that had an estimated 20-25 000 members on October 7th, but it looks proportionate if you want to displace those 1,7 million people.
I'm not saying that is what Israel is claiming as their military objective. If you read my post in response to jadis you will see that I agree with you more than him in terms of how much faith I have in their claimed military objective.
But i felt you and him were somewhat speaking past each other and I was trying to clarify what I see as the discrepancy. You say they killed and displaced x amount of people in response to a terrorist attack. He says they have done so in the process of trying to destroy said terrorist group which they regard as an existential threat. You're both describing the same basic reality. The framing is what changes everything.
Alarming footage appears to show President Biden forgetting Hamas' name when asked about hostages held in Gaza (https://nypost.com/2024/02/07/news/biden-appears-to-forget-hamas-name/)Quote"There is some movement, and I don't wanna, I don't wanna ...," the 81-year-old commander-in-chief said, pausing to stare blankly ahead.
"Let me choose my words — there's some movement, there's been ... a response from the, uh..." he said, again pausing while looking ahead with the same lost look.
"There's been a response ... from ... the opposition, but um —" he said.
Sounding confused about what he was supposed to say, Biden suddenly looked up to his left while getting much-needed guidance.
"Yes, I'm sorry from Hamas," he says of the terror group behind the war with key US ally Israel.
Oy vey!
Quote from: Psy-Fi on Feb 07, 2024, 01:42 PMAlarming footage appears to show President Biden forgetting Hamas' name when asked about hostages held in Gaza (https://nypost.com/2024/02/07/news/biden-appears-to-forget-hamas-name/)
Oy vey!
He probably just had ice cream on the mind and was experiencing brain freeze. Give him a break, jack!
Quote from: SGR on Feb 07, 2024, 06:13 PMHe probably just had ice cream on the mind and was experiencing brain freeze. Give him a break, jack!
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8WZzh6V/GDE-72.jpg)
Just seen that lad in the US army who set himself on fire in protest.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68405119
Quote from: jimmy jazz on Feb 26, 2024, 09:15 PMJust seen that lad in the US army who set himself on fire in protest.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68405119
So sad, and disturbing to even think about, let alone see with your own eyes. Burning to death has to be one of the worst ways to die I can think of, right up there with being eaten alive (by a bear or something).
RIP to the guy, he definitely sent a message. But the saddest part is that it was probably for nothing - this story will be a blip in the news cycle, a week will pass, and nothing will change.
RIP Aaron Bushnell
sad stuff.
Protesters burn Israel flags outside DC Embassy where USAF engineer, 25, set himself on FIRE and died - after leftists PRAISED him for 'martyring himself' (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13131243/Aaron-Bushnell-martyr-burn-Israel-flags-DC-embassy.html)
They found that guy's Reddit account.
Reddit currently busy deleting all his posts it seems.
Seemed to mock the three army reserves who were killed.