The Multi-faceted Frank Zappa

[larsvsnapster]

Sure thing! No artist is perfect and it makes for more interesting discussions if we accept that. Like his view on women/gay people doesn't always seem great (though more of its time) and Broken Hearts are for Assholes is just gross.

Also, we should have a RIO thread at some point!

Actually his gay songs were really affirming to me -- "Punky's Whips", "Broken Hearts", "He's So Gay" -- they all sent the message "this is more common than you think."  Sort of like B-52's "Moon in the Sky."  "Bobby Brown" -- that's a different contextual story.  Apparently he was interviewed at some point by a woman, and she had two guys with her that were on the make for her but they were going for a stereotypical Alan Alda type -- "I'm so sensitive so I'm perfect for you" etc.  The outcome of that song is how they dealt with their failure.  I wish the assumption for making the switch wasn't the nature/nurture argument but more in line with reality -- a spectrum and not just a linear, 2D spectrum (like Kinsey). 

"He's So Gay" actually had a special message for me:  look how stupid you are if you buy into all these stereotypes just to get some.  That's where the choice lies, and none of the accessories are requirements.  I just wish he'd written that song earlier, around the time of "Punky's Whips" so I'd have the affirmation.  I and my husband were an open secret in high school but no one ever caused us grief over it simply because we weren't stereotypes in any way -- we were just simply dudes.  To this day the word gay is semi-loaded to me, and I prefer to call my sexuality "dudes for me, gold star." 

[Guybrush]

Actually his gay songs were really affirming to me -- "Punky's Whips", "Broken Hearts", "He's So Gay" -- they all sent the message "this is more common than you think."  Sort of like B-52's "Moon in the Sky."  "Bobby Brown" -- that's a different contextual story.  Apparently he was interviewed at some point by a woman, and she had two guys with her that were on the make for her but they were going for a stereotypical Alan Alda type -- "I'm so sensitive so I'm perfect for you" etc.  The outcome of that song is how they dealt with their failure.  I wish the assumption for making the switch wasn't the nature/nurture argument but more in line with reality -- a spectrum and not just a linear, 2D spectrum (like Kinsey). 

"He's So Gay" actually had a special message for me:  look how stupid you are if you buy into all these stereotypes just to get some.  That's where the choice lies, and none of the accessories are requirements.  I just wish he'd written that song earlier, around the time of "Punky's Whips" so I'd have the affirmation.  I and my husband were an open secret in high school but no one ever caused us grief over it simply because we weren't stereotypes in any way -- we were just simply dudes.  To this day the word gay is semi-loaded to me, and I prefer to call my sexuality "dudes for me, gold star." 

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does the gold star mean?

I don't remember all these lyrics off-hand, but I do remember (among other things) Zappa's narration about how gender bending publicity photos cause irreparable scars (which I assume means homosexual attraction) on the minds of young people like that cute little drummer.

Overall, I find women to be generally more attractive, but.. Young, red headed Terry Bozzio dressed only in a speedo and playing drums while flirting with the camera isn't uninteresting.

I love that song either way 😄

Bobby Brown was a huge hit here in Norway (!), which could happen here in the early 80s as most people had poorer English skills and couldn't quite make out what the lyrics meant. So because it was so huge, I tired of it ages and ages ago. It's my Dynamo Hum if you will. Every Norwegian of a certain age knows it, Zappa fan or not.

Thanks for The Village Of The Sun clip, Guybrush: that's a new one for me. It's a pity he didn't do a few more sincere autobiographical songs - but then of course he wouldn't be Zappa. I might as well wish that Van Morrison did more albums like The Grand Wazoo.

It's the only one I remember he cited the lyrics to in his autobiography and it's a little weird maybe that there hasn't been a studio version.. at least not that I know of. Although there is almost certainly studio recordings in the vault, I'd assume.

The live version from Live at the Roxy is absolutely great, though.

Another kinda autobiographical song is Let's make the Water Turn Black.

However, despite it being a fan favorite (I think), I'm not too keen on the version with lyrics and actually prefer instrumental versions like this.

[larsvsnapster]

Sorry for my ignorance, but what does the gold star mean?

"Gold star" is a Polari expression (60's gay slang) that essentially means that het sex isn't an option.  It's not out of disgust, it's just that I would never ever be able to perform in that scenario.  The closest I've ever gotten to het sex is allowing a woman to watch a guy fuck me, and he and I were really into each other but her presence killed my dick to the point that it was impossible to rise to the occasion.  Does that explain it succinctly?  It's a coded expression for when homosexuality was illegal in the UK and the US and frequently prosecuted as gross indecency.

I don't remember all these lyrics off-hand, but I do remember (among other things) Zappa's narration about how gender bending publicity photos cause irreparable scars (which I assume means homosexual attraction) on the minds of young people like that cute little drummer.

There's an element of facetiousness in there.  It's not the sexuality that's causing the irreparable scars, but the sales tactics of the rock groups that appear every 15 minutes.  Basically he's roasting the glam scene for using androgyny as a sales tactic.  Some people are completely androgynous, and that's not the focus of this.  I'm reminded of one guy that I knew that when you got him at the kitchen table over coffee it was just two dudes talking, but the moment anyone he was on the make for came in, he was the world's biggest Barbra fan (and every other diva you can think of) and every accessory described in the song "He's So Gay" was in your face so that you didn't miss that he needed a good boning. 

[Lisnaholic]

Another kinda autobiographical song is Let's make the Water Turn Black.

^ Not exactly what I was thinking of as a "sincere autobiographical song" , but it's just dripping with Zappa attitude.

I appeared in Baby Snakes as well for about a second.  I'm just simply saying "He rocks" when asked what I thought of him.  It's in the audience sequence just before the Poodle Lecture. 

^ Congrats on your celebrity status, lars - or at least celebrity-adjacent.

As it's being mentioned here, I listened, for the first time, to He's So Gay which is clever and amusing, but together with Guybrush's Water Turn Black they are reminders of why I like FZ's instrumental stuff more.

I think this is perhaps my favourite Zappa-plus-words song:-

What the Valley girl does to the English language just cracks me up every time: "Barf me out!"

EDIT: I wonder if you guys have a verdict on Bongo Fury ? Given that it was a Beefheart/Zappa reunion, I found it really disappointing and only played it a couple of times. Have I missed something?

[larsvsnapster]

I think this is perhaps my favourite Zappa-plus-words song:-

What the Valley girl does to the English language just cracks me up every time: "Barf me out!"

This video is a perfect example of UMG destroying Frank's legacy.  It's a footnote song.  Written in about 20 minutes, and only because Frank wanted to hang out with Moon but didn't want to quit working.  It's always "Valley Girl", "Mud Shark", "Muffin Man" .... and Frank did not pose without heavy sarcasm, and out of all the times I saw him, he more or less stood still or just walked around the stage.  If it weren't for the squarepatch I wouldn't have thought it were supposed to be Frank. 

[Lisnaholic]

Well, I just chose the "official video" clip on YouTube, imagining that Zappa had some input into how the song got presented, but perhaps he didn't. Now you mention it, the graphics don't have much stylistic connection to other things I've seen from, or about, Zappa.   

This video is a perfect example of UMG destroying Frank's legacy.  It's a footnote song.  Written in about 20 minutes, and only because Frank wanted to hang out with Moon but didn't want to quit working.  It's always "Valley Girl", "Mud Shark", "Muffin Man" .... and Frank did not pose without heavy sarcasm, and out of all the times I saw him, he more or less stood still or just walked around the stage.  If it weren't for the squarepatch I wouldn't have thought it were supposed to be Frank. 

In bold: that's interesting, but doesn't detract from it being a great, catchy song, imo. I don't disagree with your label of it as "a footnote song" either.

[larsvsnapster]

Well, I just chose the "official video" clip on YouTube, imagining that Zappa had some input into how the song got presented, but perhaps he didn't. Now you mention it, the graphics don't have much stylistic connection to other things I've seen from, or about, Zappa. 

Yeah, Frank will have been dead 30 years in 11 days.  It's rather hard to believe but it's true.  But no, that was totally UMG -- that's Frank as imagined by some record exec who would not be able to comprehend something like "Echidna's Arf (Of You)" or a good Mothers skronky abstract improvisation.  Frank did make one MTV style video for "You Are What You Is" and amazingly enough it was aired on Nickelodeon's Teenager/Young Adults show Livewire, despite the touchy subject matter and the Super Touchy Epithet -- which did NOT get blipped.  It's fun but the "psychedelic chromakey" schtick in it gets old quick.  Funnily enough it wasn't the subject matter or The Epithet that kept it from getting played -- it was what ultimately happens to Reagan in the storyboard. 

[Lexi Darling]

A lot of people say I talk like a valley girl, which I kind of like in a way. So because of that I'm a bit more endeared to that song, haha.

[Guybrush]

It's a bit weird.. Valley Girl went by relatively unnoticed across the pond and up here. I'd been listening to Zappa for years before I even learned of its existence.

As a song, I don't care much for it, but I like the collab and the somewhat sad story behind it.

[Lisnaholic]

A lot of people say I talk like a valley girl, which I kind of like in a way. So because of that I'm a bit more endeared to that song, haha.

No waaaay!! That's bitchen, Mrs. Waffles !! 

[Lexi Darling]

No waaaay!! That's bitchen, Mrs. Waffles !! 

Haha, I don't say obvious stuff like telling people to gag me with a spoon or anything. It's just an accent that comes out in certain words or phrases, like it's really obvious when I say "oh my gosh".

[larsvsnapster]

EDIT: I wonder if you guys have a verdict on Bongo Fury ? Given that it was a Beefheart/Zappa reunion, I found it really disappointing and only played it a couple of times. Have I missed something?

The first quarter of it is Debra > Carolina.  Even though the words are Frank's, Don may not have ever gotten better than this without the Magic Band.  The guitar solo in Carolina pricked up my ears and I generally don't much like guitar solos.  I keep returning to it, possibly because it's the last release before Herbienacht.  First side is better than the second, but the monster slam is Cucamonga at the start of the second side.   

[Lisnaholic]

The first quarter of it is Debra > Carolina.  Even though the words are Frank's, Don may not have ever gotten better than this without the Magic Band.  The guitar solo in Carolina pricked up my ears and I generally don't much like guitar solos.  I keep returning to it, possibly because it's the last release before Herbienacht.  First side is better than the second, but the monster slam is Cucamonga at the start of the second side. 

Thanks for your description of Bongo Fury, lars. You inspired me to give it another listen, and it sounds better to me now than I remembered:
Bursting with energy and ideas from the start, I thought Don's vocals on Debra Kadabra were just too raw and grating, but he was much better on the other tracks. For me, Poofter's Froth and 200 Years stood out as tracks where the collaboration between the Captain and FZ was most apparent: two old friends sharing their musical enthusiasm.
Cucamonga was pretty good, but I would't call it "the monster slam" of side two, I'm afraid, lars I'd reserve that title for Advance Romance, the long loping blues track which has some of the album's best harmonica and guitar playing.
Is Muffin Man highly regarded? I thought it was spoiled by FZ's narrative introduction story. That really suffered, imo, from coming immediately after Don's Man With The Woman Head , inviting a comparison that ends badly for Frank.
Bottom Line: I'll be ´playing this album again because it's better than I remembered. Thanks, lars

[larsvsnapster]

Thanks for your description of Bongo Fury, lars. You inspired me to give it another listen, and it sounds better to me now than I remembered:
Bursting with energy and ideas from the start, I thought Don's vocals on Debra Kadabra were just too raw and grating, but he was much better on the other tracks. For me, Poofter's Froth and 200 Years stood out as tracks where the collaboration between the Captain and FZ was most apparent: two old friends sharing their musical enthusiasm.
Cucamonga was pretty good, but I would't call it "the monster slam" of side two, I'm afraid, lars I'd reserve that title for Advance Romance, the long loping blues track which has some of the album's best harmonica and guitar playing.
Is Muffin Man highly regarded? I thought it was spoiled by FZ's narrative introduction story. That really suffered, imo, from coming immediately after Don's Man With The Woman Head , inviting a comparison that ends badly for Frank.
Bottom Line: I'll be ´playing this album again because it's better than I remembered. Thanks, lars

"Advance Romance" is one of my least favourite Zappa songs, and this version is Just Too Long.  That song should be about 5 minutes rather than 12, and it's much better in other places.  "Man With the Woman Head" is a footnote track, and "Muffin man" -- well, that song took less time to write than it takes to play and it shows.   

The reason "Cucamonga" is the grand slam is it was originally the finale to "Farther Oblivion" -- no not "Father O'blivion" -- that's a different song.  "Farther Oblivion" is "Join The March" > "Steno Pool" > "Bebop Tango" > "Cucamonga", as heard on Piquantique. 

"Sam" is just typical Beefheart ranting, "Poofter's" was NOT a collaboration -- Don just sang it.  "200 Years Old" is much better in the full 9-minute version from the acetate even though much of what's missing is (you guessed it) a guitar solo. 

The winners here are Debra, Carolina, 200 Years, and Cucamonga.  I would have nixed the rest of the 2nd side and in that space put the band version of "Orange Claw Hammer" (which still isn't released yet), "Portuguese Lunar Landing" (which still hasn't been released yet), and ended with "Stranded In The Jungle", which isn't a Zappa tune but it was a set item the next year. 

[Guybrush]

Bongo Fury is one of the weaker Mothers-albums in my opinion. And it was released only months after One Size Fits All which is my favourite Zappa/Mothers album overall.

Advance Romance is the song I've listened to the most and it's a little interesting that it's more bluesy than most Zappa stuff.