The Multi-Faceted Frank Zappa
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Out of all American popular artists, Frank Zappa is certainly the most musically interesting. His bands (The Mothers of Invention and later hired guns) were always amazing and Zappa pushed them to an excellence that was virtually unknown at the time. He was also extremely creative and prolific and overwhelmingly has the most interesting discography of any one artist I can think of. He released 62 albums during his lifetime and his trust has released a similar volume meaning his discography currently sits at something like 120-130 releases.
In there, you can find things like the poppy doo-wop of Any Way the Wind Blows (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpbYkgpKSN4), the brilliantly fun and almost childish Let's Make the Water Turn Black (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nHVlw7Bblo), the proto-punk attitude of My Guitar Wants to Kill Your Mama (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0Oj-eZqpHE), the impenetrable avantgarde fusion of It Must Be a Camel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwVS-53LBC8), the melodic jazz of 20 Small Cigars (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOI7P2UCArM) or the blissful tones of Blessed Relief (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zXp4ZfRGsA), the catchy soul of Village of the Sun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQHU-Widcoo), the blues of Advance Romance (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47z509bLmCc), the classic rock of Wonderful Wino (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awRy4x9ecfM), the banal humour of Titties 'n Beer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8B1egwXnTo), the sinister dreaminess of Filthy Habits (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJaXsQ9MAHM), the bizarreness of Sofa no. 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q88U5LAz8g4), the virtuosity of Inca Roads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAGVQM6IAKk), the frenetic electronica of G-spot Tornado (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvpdiIaZZLg), the Mongolian throat singing of Dance Me This (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVw3xBw2t9k), the London Symphony Orchestra's drunken horn section on Strictly Genteel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tn3qy_JjXxc) and the beautiful modern classical reiterations of earlier compositions like The Dog Breath Variations and Uncle Meat (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26X9ecyMZss) on what's considered his last official release, The Yellow Shark (feat. Ensemble Modern).
Outside of music, he appeared intelligent, confident, unafraid and uncompromising. He was outspoken on things like the commercialization of music and censorship and had plans on both having his own talk show and running for president. Unfortunately, none of those things came to fruition and he died in 1993 at 53 years of age from prostate cancer.
I wanted to create a thread to honour and celebrate what's possibly the greatest artist to ever grace our stereos. So please, use this place to share with us your favorites out of all things Zappa!
The above took a little while to write and so I'll just share this very quickly :)
I LOVE the late version of The Mothers seen here with George Duke, Napoleon Murphy Brock, Ruth Underwood and others. Here they're playing Inca Roads, a song that contains a lot of typical Zappa-isms like internal references (python boots? guacamole queen?), extended guitar soloing, overall exquisite virtuosity (check out Ruth's percussion runs here) and a composition that features the same set of notes played at different tempos, etc.
It is also absolutely brilliant!
There's no doubt the man was a musical genius. I adore his instrumental albums, Hot Rats and The Grand Wazoo have such unique and colorful compositions. He was also an extremely underrated guitarist as a whole.
I'm not quite as keen on his lyrical music, but I certainly respect him for going against the grain and doing something different.
Frank Zappa, who happened to have been born in Baltimore (we like to brag about that here) was also my first concert back in 1976. Crack the Sky opened for him at the Capital Centre and between the sets, we were treated to a showing of Baby Snakes. It was a phenomenal show and I never saw a concert afterwards that topped him (and I saw Led Zeppelin a year later).
Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Jan 28, 2023, 04:37 PMThere's no doubt the man was a musical genius. I adore his instrumental albums, Hot Rats and The Grand Wazoo have such unique and colorful compositions. He was also an extremely underrated guitarist as a whole.
I'm not quite as keen on his lyrical music, but I certainly respect him for going against the grain and doing something different.
If you like his instrumental music, perhaps you'll appreciate this trio's cover of Let's Make the Water Turn Black :)
Quote from: Rubber Soul on Jan 28, 2023, 05:28 PMFrank Zappa, who happened to have been born in Baltimore (we like to brag about that here) was also my first concert back in 1976. Crack the Sky opened for him at the Capital Centre and between the sets, we were treated to a showing of Baby Snakes. It was a phenomenal show and I never saw a concert afterwards that topped him (and I saw Led Zeppelin a year later).
Oh man, if I could go back in time to watch ONE show, Frank Zappa would be a likely pick for me. The Baby Snakes concert videos look like so much fun. It'd be hard to pick between that and the latest version of the mothers for me.
Great thread. Zappa is essentially responsible for two of my favorite artists, Patrick O'Hearn and George Duke, really taking off and finding their wings. He really could do anything, even wonky Chick Corea Elektric Band-sounding fusion on 1986's Jazz From Hell.
Oh yeah, I forgot Patrick O'Hearn played with him. Kind of an interesting connection.
Quote from: Nimbly9 on Jan 28, 2023, 11:16 PMGreat thread. Zappa is essentially responsible for two of my favorite artists, Patrick O'Hearn and George Duke, really taking off and finding their wings. He really could do anything, even wonky Chick Corea Elektric Band-sounding fusion on 1986's Jazz From Hell.
Thanks, mate!
I love me some Chick, but this one's too much fun :laughing:
Quote from: Guybrush on Jan 28, 2023, 04:08 PMOut of all American popular artists, Frank Zappa is certainly the most musically interesting.
I'll be watching this space for any support for this claim. :P
Quote from: Janszoon on Jan 29, 2023, 04:04 AMQuote from: Guybrush on Jan 28, 2023, 04:08 PMOut of all American popular artists, Frank Zappa is certainly the most musically interesting.
I'll be watching this space for any support for this claim. :P
There's a lot of it :) here's a little slice:
Frank's German songsI've discovered a couple that nearly seem related, but maybe there are more? Let me know!
Frank obviously thinks the German language is fun (he's right) and there are some songs with verses sung in German. The first appearance I know of is Sofa no. 2, presumably the piece of furniture that graces the cover.
It is wonderfully weird and goes like this:
The second one is the much more crude (but fun) Stick It Out from the later Joe's Garage. It's about sex with a robot and also contains the line "don't get no jizzm on that sofa sofa", first in German, then English.
Might he be referencing the earlier sofa?
Those tracks are definitely what I think of when I think of Zappa. To me it always sounds like ordinary music with extra noodling and jokey vocals. Where is all his alleged weird stuff? I'll keep listening, but it's been about 30 years of fruitless searching for me.
I hope a 120-130 album discography is not going to stop you from reviewing each album for us, Guybrush !
I'm not a big fan of the jokey vocals, and this (instrumental) track falls squarely into Janszoon's description of "ordinary music with extra noodling", but it's a real favourite of mine: a relatively relaxed workout from various soloists who all work to keep the pot bubbling along with no low points:-
Quote from: Janszoon on Jan 29, 2023, 02:03 PMThose tracks are definitely what I think of when I think of Zappa. To me it always sounds like ordinary music with extra noodling and jokey vocals. Where is all his alleged weird stuff? I'll keep listening, but it's been about 30 years of fruitless searching for me.
I was a little hesitant to reply because if you've been searching for 30 years without finding a weird Zappa song, then maybe you should focus on a different aspect or quality. We have different ideas of weird and I don't wanna be tasked with solving this 30 years quest for you. It might be impossible :laughing: Also, I don't know how imporant
weird should be. He has great songs.
To me, a song written from the perspective of a couch with soulful vocals mixed with Frank's german
is weird. I can't think of another artist who would write, make and produce that song. I also think the description "ordinary music with extra noodling" seems a little dismissive. Depending on what you mean by noodling, if analyzed, it might contain a lot of what I think of as weird, like Tina Turner & The Ikettes sung part in Montana (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smZA9Jv3qH0&t=3m23s) or the beat that's just a little out of tempo on Catholic Girls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVVhsOIhnMg&t=1m37s) or pretty much the entirety of OP-mentioned It Must Be A Camel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwVS-53LBC8).
What you describe as noodling was probably also written down in musical notation as that was his method. He's by far not the only rock musician to write notation, but he played around with it a lot in a way I haven't heard much elsewhere in rock music - like mirroring a run of notes or reusing them in different tempos etc. I think these are ideas that might come to someone who writes
a lot and is really comfortable in that medium, but not to someone who does things by ear. The most famous example of such creativity is, of course, The Black Page (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7K2WMbUP7w) (so titled because it's sheet music so densely packed with notes it appears as a black page). So I think he brings a kind of composer's creativity to rock music which had not been seen or heard before.
His most dense music may be his synclavier compositions or modern classical music, like The Girl In The Magnesium Dress (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B4BUm8n0Y4) which he wrote, but didn't think humans could or would perform. To me, that piece of music is weird (though I much prefer this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26X9ecyMZss)), but to you it might just be orchestral music with extra noodling. If so, it's not like I'm determined to prove you otherwise :laughing:
Because she's an absolute treasure, I'll sign off with Ruth Underwood telling us some of her thoughts while playing The Black Page on piano.
edit:
Lisna, thanks for your reply! I have heard Zappa in New York, but still am not very familiar with the song you posted. Isn't it wonderful? You can be a Zappa fan for many years and still get recommendations that are relatively unknown to you :D
About reviewing his entire discography.. I'm sure his post-humous discography is ripe with treasures and I have heard some of it, but I'm not really familiar with even all of his studio albums yet. So you may have to wait a while!
The thing about Zappa is that he was pivotal in shaping music the way it is today given his influence over a lot of other very influential musicians. It is also worth noting that a lot of what Zappa did that was "weird" was very meta, like making a doo wop album essentially lampooning the genre he was quite fond of, and playing with lots of different genres, experimenting with Double albums and Concept albums (or both with Freak Out!) before they were really a "big thing". Weird is a subjective term, my enjoyment from Zappa comes from the awesome music, history and humour (when applicable)
I posted this in the Frank Zappa Appreciation thread over at MB back in 2015 (sure doesn't seem like it was 8 years ago) so I'll just copy & paste it here...
I have around 40 Zappa bootlegs (mostly on vinyl) and around 60 of his official releases (about half of those on vinyl) a few CD's and a few VHS tapes and DVD's, along with a couple of tour shirts from shows I saw and a couple of 60's Mothers of Invention concert posters. I've also seen The Grandmothers and The GrandMothers of Invention, and have some albums and CD's and a tour shirt from The Grandmothers. Over the past 15 years, I've also had the opportunity to chat with several members of the original Mothers of Invention as well as several members of Zappa's solo bands from the 70's & 80's.
Needless to say, I'm a fan.
I think this may have been Zappa's first recording from 1963.
That's a great find, RS! Thanks for sharing!
And Psy-Fi, so cool :) I feel like it's you old timers who should have the honour of starting a Zappa tribute thread, not a mere layman like myself. All I did besides listening is a few LPs (can't even remember which ones, but Joe's Garage and Over-nite and maybe Apostrophe?) and having seen Dweezil when he was doing the Hot Rats anniversary tour some years ago.
I thought this might be a fun addition, though. Here's me (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UDRia14KMdvDbTMGhlw24fwGn13QcqPx/view?usp=share_link) with my very rudimentary piano skills playing a very simple version of Uncle Rhemus. I made a previous recording for the discord a while back when we were discussing Zappa and thought of also sharing that here, but it had some audio issues and so I redid it. I probably won't leave it up for long :coldsweat:
How's Your Bird was part of a soundtrack of the World's Greatest Sinner (also recorded by Zappa- billed as Baby Ray and the Ferns). It was a bizarre cult movie that was written and directed by character actor Timothy Carey, who also starred as the protagonist. The quality of the film is fairly poor but it's definitely rates as a much watch film.
Quote from: Guybrush on Jan 30, 2023, 08:36 AMI don't know how imporant weird should be. He has great songs.
Weirdness is not a requirement for me, it's just how people typically describe his music so it's the expectation I have going in.
Quote from: Guybrush on Jan 30, 2023, 08:36 AMTo me, a song written from the perspective of a couch with soulful vocals mixed with Frank's german is weird. I can't think of another artist who would write, make and produce that song.
I mean weird in terms of the music. Harry Nilsson also wrote a song about the feelings of a piece of furniture ("Good Old Desk" (https://youtu.be/eIsW6DMR9z4)) which certainly has quirky lyrics, but I wouldn't call the music itself weird.
Quote from: Guybrush on Jan 30, 2023, 08:36 AMI also think the description "ordinary music with extra noodling" seems a little dismissive. Depending on what you mean by noodling, if analyzed, it might contain a lot of what I think of as weird, like Tina Turner & The Ikettes sung part in Montana (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smZA9Jv3qH0&t=3m23s) or the beat that's just a little out of tempo on Catholic Girls (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVVhsOIhnMg&t=1m37s) or pretty much the entirety of OP-mentioned It Must Be A Camel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwVS-53LBC8).
I'm not trying to be dismissive, it's just what the music sounds like to me.
Joe's Garage was the first Zappa album I ever listened to—loaned to me by a bandmate, based on my then recent discovery of John Zorn's Naked City—and to me it's nowhere near as weird or interesting as it's made out to be by fans. As you said, maybe I should be looking for something else in the music. I'm just not sure what that something else would be.
Hot Rats, which I listened to for the first time a few years ago, I like a lot more, and I like the track you posted from it. It has a lot in common with the jazz of its era, which is cool, but it's not an album I've gone back to, so I suspect that my appreciation for it is more intellectual than anything else.
Quote from: Guybrush on Jan 30, 2023, 08:36 AMWhat you describe as noodling was probably also written down in musical notation as that was his method. He's by far not the only rock musician to write notation, but he played around with it a lot in a way I haven't heard much elsewhere in rock music - like mirroring a run of notes or reusing them in different tempos etc. I think these are ideas that might come to someone who writes a lot and is really comfortable in that medium, but not to someone who does things by ear. The most famous example of such creativity is, of course, The Black Page (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7K2WMbUP7w) (so titled because it's sheet music so densely packed with notes it appears as a black page). So I think he brings a kind of composer's creativity to rock music which had not been seen or heard before.
His most dense music may be his synclavier compositions or modern classical music, like The Girl In The Magnesium Dress (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9B4BUm8n0Y4) which he wrote, but didn't think humans could or would perform. To me, that piece of music is weird (though I much prefer this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26X9ecyMZss)), but to you it might just be orchestral music with extra noodling. If so, it's not like I'm determined to prove you otherwise :laughing:
Because she's an absolute treasure, I'll sign off with Ruth Underwood telling us some of her thoughts while playing The Black Page on piano.
I liked this stuff more! Maybe I like him more when there's no vocals. :P
Quote from: Janszoon on Jan 30, 2023, 06:14 PMI liked this stuff more! Maybe I like him more when there's no vocals. :P
Sure thing :) it's a good thing we're not all alike. I rather like Frank's voice as well as his other singers, particularly George Duke and Ike Willis.
As I've gotten older, I slightly wish his late 70s music had a little less sexual themes. I prefer it when he sings about moving to Montana, talking dogs, couches, Indians making landing strips for aliens, etc. Still love most of the songs, though :)
By the way, it's not THAT long since I finally found out who Chester's gorilla is.. making all those weird sounds towards the end of Florentine Pigen (a song from One Size Fits All).
Chester's gorilla refers to a groupie that drummer Chester Thompson would get cozy with. So it's funny and a little mean, typical Zappa :laughing: I've since wondered if the gorilla groupie was ever told or figured out that she's the fabled gorilla from this song.
Here's one from 'Joe's Garage' and, in my opinion, this one is not only one of Zappa's best instrumental tunes but also possibly his all-time best guitar work...
Frank Zappa - Watermelon in Easter Hay
Yes that's a great track, with Zappa for once allowing himself to be mellow for an extended period of time. Zoot Allures has some nice guitar-centric tracks too. This one is instrumental again, for the benefit of Janszoon and me, who aren't so keen on some of FZ's lyrics:-
^Black Napkins is, of course, a classic 🥰
@Janszoon I was wondering if you might prefer some of the Zappa albums people don't recommend so much.
In my first post, I mentioned the sinister dreaminess of Filthy Habits. That's from an album, Sleep Dirt, which is largely instrumental and has some interesting songs. I like the aforementioned Filthy Habits, but this may be my favorite:
Another album mentioned a little more often, but still not that much, is The Grand Wazoo. It's another instrumental album that's fusion oriented.
My favorite from that is Blessed Relief which is one of his more laidback tracks.
Quote from: Guybrush on Feb 15, 2023, 11:49 PM@Janszoon I was wondering if you might prefer some of the Zappa albums people don't recommend so much.
I like both of those!
The Grand Wazoo is a great album, probably my favorite of his actually.
Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Feb 18, 2023, 01:52 AMThe Grand Wazoo is a great album, probably my favorite of his actually.
I may give the whole thing a listen.
With the notable exception of Hot Rats, these instrumental albums definitely take a backseat to his more accessible, humorous rock albums. They're still great, though :)
I discovered The Grand Wazoo relatively late. I'd been listening to Zappa for about ten years or so before I got into it. I fell in love with it and listened to it on repeat as I was refurbishing our house a few years ago.
It's really cool how you can still discover these great albums in his discography, even after being a listener for many years.
Here's another great instrumental tune from the Mothers. Easily one of my all-time favorites...
The Mothers of Invention - The Little House I Used to Live In
Here are a couple more from the same album. Easily two of my all-time favorites...
The Mothers of Invention - Holiday In Berlin, Full-BlownThe Mothers of Invention - Aybe Sea
Wow. Pleasant surprise. Zappa got brought up and no one's going on about those goddamn guitar solos. UMG is pushing him as this clown who sings about titties and shreds on a guitar. And they're completely ignoring the big bands, the synclavier, and the orchestral stuff that he excelled at.
Here's some of my favourites (and this is from being a fan since Grand Wazoo came out):
Favourite big band tune: "The Purple Lagoon"
Favourite song that Frank didn't sing: "Doreen"
Favourite song that Frank did sing: "The Radio Is Broken."
Favourite band: the Roxy band.
Favourite guitar solo: "Revised Music for Guitar & Low Budget Orchestra." "While You Were Out" is a close second, but generally I don't like them.
Favourite album: Feeding the Monkees at ma Maison
Favourite posthumous song that took forever to get released: "Imaginary Diseases."
Favourite orchestral excursion: "Sad Jane"
Favourite chamber excursion: "G-Spot Tornado" as played on The Yellow Shark
Worst album: Thing-Fish
Best album: tossup between Uncle Meat, We're Only in It for the Money, and Läther.
This isn't really common knowledge but if there's such a thing as a sell-out, Frank's it. The sell-out occurred when the Mothers ended and he started playing more songs about titties and stuff from his albums, also pushing them onstage, something he'd never done before. The Mothers ceased to exist when he fired Herb Cohen (Herbienacht). Before Herbienacht he approached the repertoire like a jazz band, with it changing nightly and frequently failing in some way. After Herbienacht there were three sets and two of them would be played each night, with deviation coming at the end of the tours -- the most infamous example is Zappa playing "Stump the Band" on stage for about half an hour in Des Moines and the band just fell completely apart in the most humourous way -- that tape is really a scream. Before Herbienacht you might hear one song that you'd heard before but it was going to be so radically different you might not recognise the tune. That happened occasionally afterward (most notably in Omaha about three months before Tinseltown Rebellion got released).
The early 80's were a hard time to be a Zappa fan in some respects. Nothing was available except the most recent album and used prices shot to the sky. Nobody remotely in the jam band format was cool except for Television, and i don't know how they got away with it.
Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 16, 2023, 01:15 AMI love that song and album. I really like Zappa's compositional style in general, but it's frustrating because I'm not a fan of his vocals or lyrics. So the instrumental stuff is where it's at for me.
You ever listen to Jazz from Hell? Very interesting synth, sampler and early digital sequencing experiments and it's a fun album.
I've listened to Jazz from Hell, but I'm a little sad to say his Synclavier stuff doesn't quite do it for me.
Some of the later orchestral stuff is nice, especially Yellow Shark ❤️
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 16, 2023, 02:23 AMWow. Pleasant surprise. Zappa got brought up and no one's going on about those goddamn guitar solos. UMG is pushing him as this clown who sings about titties and shreds on a guitar. And they're completely ignoring the big bands, the synclavier, and the orchestral stuff that he excelled at.
Here's some of my favourites (and this is from being a fan since Grand Wazoo came out):
Favourite big band tune: "The Purple Lagoon"
Favourite song that Frank didn't sing: "Doreen"
Favourite song that Frank did sing: "The Radio Is Broken."
Favourite band: the Roxy band.
Favourite guitar solo: "Revised Music for Guitar & Low Budget Orchestra." "While You Were Out" is a close second, but generally I don't like them.
Favourite album: Feeding the Monkees at ma Maison
Favourite posthumous song that took forever to get released: "Imaginary Diseases."
Favourite orchestral excursion: "Sad Jane"
Favourite chamber excursion: "G-Spot Tornado" as played on The Yellow Shark
Worst album: Thing-Fish
Best album: tossup between Uncle Meat, We're Only in It for the Money, and Läther.
This isn't really common knowledge but if there's such a thing as a sell-out, Frank's it. The sell-out occurred when the Mothers ended and he started playing more songs about titties and stuff from his albums, also pushing them onstage, something he'd never done before. The Mothers ceased to exist when he fired Herb Cohen (Herbienacht). Before Herbienacht he approached the repertoire like a jazz band, with it changing nightly and frequently failing in some way. After Herbienacht there were three sets and two of them would be played each night, with deviation coming at the end of the tours -- the most infamous example is Zappa playing "Stump the Band" on stage for about half an hour in Des Moines and the band just fell completely apart in the most humourous way -- that tape is really a scream. Before Herbienacht you might hear one song that you'd heard before but it was going to be so radically different you might not recognise the tune. That happened occasionally afterward (most notably in Omaha about three months before Tinseltown Rebellion got released).
The early 80's were a hard time to be a Zappa fan in some respects. Nothing was available except the most recent album and used prices shot to the sky. Nobody remotely in the jam band format was cool except for Television, and i don't know how they got away with it.
Thanks, Lars! I'll go through some of those favorites for sure 🙂 we also have a Zappa thread buried here somewhere.
I think we also favor slightly different ends of his discography, but that's of course one of the great things about him. He was so productive and covered so much musical ground.
My favorites in general are his 70s albums with The Mothers, so Grand Wazoo is a good example. I also love their final album, One Size Fits All. I'm not a huge fan of, say, Lumpy Gravy (at least not yet). Still, Uncle Meat is great and I think we agree on Thing-fish.
About him selling out, my knee-jerk reaction would be that can't be accurate. Doesn't selling out mean going against your principles for monetary gain? Generally speaking, it seems to me like he took his artistry in the direction he wanted to go.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 16, 2023, 02:16 PMAbout him selling out, my knee-jerk reaction would be that can't be accurate. Doesn't selling out mean going against your principles for monetary gain? Generally speaking, it seems to me like he took his artistry in the direction he wanted to go.
ooh don't turn into a Zappa fan on me! LOL
Bongo Fury was the final Mothers album, but there was a tour in early 76 under the Mothers name. "Black Napkins" from
Zoot Allures is the final new Mothers track. For most of 1976 the "band" was just him and Terry.
The sellout was actually well hidden. It didn't dawn on me that's what happened in that time period until I got all the live tapes (and I must have 1000 or more). I saw him on the early 77 Zoot Allures tour. Yes, he did the "tour the album" bit twice --
Zoot Allures and
Them Or Us were the honorees, I was amazed that he was referencing it onstage -- I thought that was so un-Zappa-like, playing songs from the records. But I understand why it was that way -- when he fired Herbie his assets got frozen and he needed to make money really quickly.
Them Or Us got the push because in the few months before it came out, the only album available was the
Shut Up 'n' Play Yer Guitar box, and despite what the Time/Life version of Zappa would have you believe, it didn't sell. It was supposed to be limited edition but it stayed available for about 5 years.
Drowning Witch despite having The Hit on it, was out of print in something ridiculous like 8 months.
Basically if you go back to the Mothers with the live tapes, those are interesting in the jam band sense because the set was never ever the same twice and it wasn't available on records yet. Starting with
Zoot Allures they played a fixed setlist nightly. And all of them had to include "Dinah Moe Humm" as the encore which might be my least favourite Zappa song. As you get into the era where the band was just called Zappa, the live tapes get super boring because the deviation and the "You Call That Music?" stuff vanished by the 2nd SNL appearance. I was wrong but I distinctly remember seeing the 84 band and thinking, wow, I never thought Zappa would become a nostalgia act, but that was the feel at that show. All the weird editing for the live archival things obscured this. With Mothers live tapes, I can pretty much date it to the month, sometimes the week. With the live tapes after Herbienacht, they're a total bore until the end of the tours, when Frank would bring the weirdness back for say, the last 5 or 6 shows. I can date the wacky shows, but aside from a few lyric mutations, they played the majority of the tours straight with little deviation.
Yes, well.. there certainly is a shift in the way he's working that might go well with your observations. My impression is that after Mothers, the creativity in his music does seem to shift more into the studio and particularly into the mixing part of music production. Increasingly, he was splicing parts and making music that hadn't actually been played like that by his band.
So to me, it seems like there's a gradual shift into a more introverted artist. We know that ends up with him increasingly making music on his own with the Synclavier and also focusing more on his orchestral music with London Symphony Orchestra and Ensemble Modern.
I remember from his autobiography that he doesn't have all that much to say about his band mates then. He was an employer and they were employees. For example, I remember very little (if anything) about Adrian Belew or Steve Vai. He complains a bit about the unionized musicians in the LSO and writes that it's good to be up at nights and sleep during days because it lets you avoid people. The Synclavier removes human mistakes and the need for interactions and directions. It seems to me he tired of people and turned more and more into a misanthrope.
It also does seem like he also grew tired of being a rock star in the early half of the 80s. Maybe he couldn't get the chemistry quite where he wanted it with his band or just grew tired of working that way?
Everybody needs money and I'm sure he made business decisions, but some of the decisions he'll make in the 80s are definitely artistic decisions.
I think Zappa always just kind of did whatever he wanted at that particular moment. Like when he randomly discovered some old classical composer with a similar name as him and decided to make an album of Synclavier covers of that composer's pieces. I also think it's quite lovely music.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 16, 2023, 07:09 PMit seems like there's a gradual shift into a more introverted artist.
He was always a bit of an introvert in terms of being the guy in charge, but I didn't see it the times I met him. I have this weird knack of being in the right place at the right time -- so .... whenever Frank would come to NYC to play, the day of the show (if it weren't a run), I'd go to Bleecker Bob's (where it was easy to meet your favourite musicians -- who didn't I meet there? LOL) and shop for a couple of hours and sure enough Frank would walk in the door. By 1978 he recognised me by name. Since I know when you meet your favourite musicians you stay off their work until they mention it, I never really got to ask many questions about stuff, but I did ask him just before the Halloween run at the Palladium, the season where Adrian was in the band, what was going to be the monster song this time around. He grimaced slightly and said "Wild Love" (which hadn't come out yet). I asked "not Pound? Not Dupree? not King Kong?" He said that the band has better replicating chops than they did jazz chops, but that they were going to play the Teenage Werewolf version (his words) of Pound, and they did (it's in
Baby Snakes).
I appeared in
Baby Snakes as well for about a second. I'm just simply saying "He rocks" when asked what I thought of him. It's in the audience sequence just before the Poodle Lecture.
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 17, 2023, 06:20 PMHe was always a bit of an introvert in terms of being the guy in charge, but I didn't see it the times I met him. I have this weird knack of being in the right place at the right time -- so .... whenever Frank would come to NYC to play, the day of the show (if it weren't a run), I'd go to Bleecker Bob's (where it was easy to meet your favourite musicians -- who didn't I meet there? LOL) and shop for a couple of hours and sure enough Frank would walk in the door. By 1978 he recognised me by name. Since I know when you meet your favourite musicians you stay off their work until they mention it, I never really got to ask many questions about stuff, but I did ask him just before the Halloween run at the Palladium, the season where Adrian was in the band, what was going to be the monster song this time around. He grimaced slightly and said "Wild Love" (which hadn't come out yet). I asked "not Pound? Not Dupree? not King Kong?" He said that the band has better replicating chops than they did jazz chops, but that they were going to play the Teenage Werewolf version (his words) of Pound, and they did (it's in Baby Snakes).
I appeared in Baby Snakes as well for about a second. I'm just simply saying "He rocks" when asked what I thought of him. It's in the audience sequence just before the Poodle Lecture.
Wow, Lars.. so cool 🙂 I do feel like meeting Zappa might've been a little intimidating.
I do have Baby Snakes, so I'll take a gander and see if I can spot you!
Also, it would be sad if someone read the Zappa thread and this lovely bit of conversation wasn't there, so I'll move and merge some of these posts.
Zappa's great but the entire Rock In Opposition subgenre puts him in the shade. I think you have to hear many live tapes to reach that point.
Even with all the complexity I can hear where a lot of his stuff came from (e.g. all the melodies from sea shanties), but I find Henry Cow to be far more interesting and their offshoot band Art Bears just sounds like it beamed down from outer space to me. Where could that possibly have come from? How can it be so harmonically out and still be tertian? I learned so many more musical tricks with Art Bears' three albums than I have with Zappa's entire discography.
I still like him but there are three things preventing me from actively listening to him any more. The first one is not particularly liking the guitar solos -- Frank would play 30,000 notes where David Gilmour plays one with finely controlled nuance. The second one is "Dinah Moe Humm" 30,000 times -- I can live without that one. You can throw "Camarillo Brillo", "Mud Shark", and "Muffin Man" in there as well too. The third one is, well he's been dead 30 bloody years, and the world he references doesn't exist anymore. I mean you can still buy some white but you're not getting it at a gas station.
And in case anyone thinks I'm slagging him, I want to point out that if you truly love something you can be critical about it.
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 20, 2023, 06:10 AMAnd in case anyone thinks I'm slagging him, I want to point out that if you truly love something you can be critical about it.
Sure thing! No artist is perfect and it makes for more interesting discussions if we accept that. Like his view on women/gay people doesn't always seem great (though more of its time) and Broken Hearts are for Assholes is just gross.
Also, we should have a RIO thread at some point!
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 20, 2023, 07:29 AMSure thing! No artist is perfect and it makes for more interesting discussions if we accept that. Like his view on women/gay people doesn't always seem great (though more of its time) and Broken Hearts are for Assholes is just gross.
Also, we should have a RIO thread at some point!
Yeah, I definitely agree there, I find a lot of his lyrics to be very juvenile, and not in the fun bratty punk way.
Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 20, 2023, 08:04 AMYeah, I definitely agree there, I find a lot of his lyrics to be very juvenile, and not in the fun bratty punk way.
I'm generally very tolerant of things of a transgressive nature, but I would agree some of his lyrics are unfortunate (with a very good example mentioned above). I've often wondered why he leaned so heavily into it. Obviously he thought it was funny and for the most part, I also think so. But I've wondered how big a part of it was, say, a middle finger to the people who'd rather censor him. I assume that must factor in a little bit.
I much prefer his lyrics when they're about landing strips for aliens, his neighbors, sofas, talking dogs (not necessarily poodles) or about growing dental ("dennil"?) floss on the prairie.
Edit:
Here's one of his rarer autobiographical songs 🙂
And it showcases a quality that I greatly admire; to be able to make music outside the pop format, but still make it really catchy ❤️
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 20, 2023, 08:24 AMI'm generally very tolerant of things of a transgressive nature, but I would agree some of his lyrics are unfortunate (with a very good example mentioned above). I've often wondered why he leaned so heavily into it. Obviously he thought it was funny and for the most part, I also think so. But I've wondered how big a part of it was, say, a middle finger to the people who'd rather censor him. I assume that must factor in a little bit.
I much prefer his lyrics when they're about landing strips for aliens, his neighbors, sofas, talking dogs (not necessarily poodles) or about growing dental ("dennil"?) floss on the prairie.
I'm fine with being transgressive if it's done with some sense of purpose, but I think a lot of his humor is made through cheap jokes and crassness for crassness's sake. I'm not shocked or challenged by something like "Jewish Princess", I just groan.
Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 20, 2023, 08:30 AMI'm fine with being transgressive if it's done with some sense of purpose, but I think a lot of his humor is made through cheap jokes and crassness for crassness's sake. I'm not shocked or challenged by something like "Jewish Princess", I just groan.
It's a little sad and unfortunate to his reputation that Sheik Yerbouti is his most popular record (I believe) because it does not deserve that distinction.
Though the songs Baby Snakes and Flakes are fun 🙂
When I was in my teens and even into my 20's, I thought a lot of Zappa's sexual themed lyrics were as funny as they seemed outrageous to me at that time. I started to tire of that type of humor from my 30's onward and couldn't care less about that type of lyricism now. I like to think I outgrew that phase of life and have matured but maybe I'm just gettin' old. ;D
No, you've moved in the right direction, Psy-Fi! Like Mrs. Waffles, I never liked the juvenile humour that turns up so often in his lyrics. Surely FZ was smart enough to realize that something that's funny/shocking first time you hear it is going to wear real thin after (thank you for the statistic,Lars!) 30,000 listenings ?
Thanks for The Village Of The Sun clip, Guybrush: that's a new one for me. It's a pity he didn't do a few more sincere autobiographical songs - but then of course he wouldn't be Zappa. I might as well wish that Van Morrison did more albums like The Grand Wazoo.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 20, 2023, 07:29 AMSure thing! No artist is perfect and it makes for more interesting discussions if we accept that. Like his view on women/gay people doesn't always seem great (though more of its time) and Broken Hearts are for Assholes is just gross.
Also, we should have a RIO thread at some point!
Actually his gay songs were really affirming to me -- "Punky's Whips", "Broken Hearts", "He's So Gay" -- they all sent the message "this is more common than you think." Sort of like B-52's "Moon in the Sky." "Bobby Brown" -- that's a different contextual story. Apparently he was interviewed at some point by a woman, and she had two guys with her that were on the make for her but they were going for a stereotypical Alan Alda type -- "I'm so sensitive so I'm perfect for you" etc. The outcome of that song is how they dealt with their failure. I wish the assumption for making the switch wasn't the nature/nurture argument but more in line with reality -- a spectrum and not just a linear, 2D spectrum (like Kinsey).
"He's So Gay" actually had a special message for me: look how stupid you are if you buy into all these stereotypes just to get some. That's where the choice lies, and none of the accessories are requirements. I just wish he'd written that song earlier, around the time of "Punky's Whips" so I'd have the affirmation. I and my husband were an open secret in high school but no one ever caused us grief over it simply because we weren't stereotypes in any way -- we were just simply dudes. To this day the word gay is semi-loaded to me, and I prefer to call my sexuality "dudes for me, gold star."
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 20, 2023, 05:06 PMActually his gay songs were really affirming to me -- "Punky's Whips", "Broken Hearts", "He's So Gay" -- they all sent the message "this is more common than you think." Sort of like B-52's "Moon in the Sky." "Bobby Brown" -- that's a different contextual story. Apparently he was interviewed at some point by a woman, and she had two guys with her that were on the make for her but they were going for a stereotypical Alan Alda type -- "I'm so sensitive so I'm perfect for you" etc. The outcome of that song is how they dealt with their failure. I wish the assumption for making the switch wasn't the nature/nurture argument but more in line with reality -- a spectrum and not just a linear, 2D spectrum (like Kinsey).
"He's So Gay" actually had a special message for me: look how stupid you are if you buy into all these stereotypes just to get some. That's where the choice lies, and none of the accessories are requirements. I just wish he'd written that song earlier, around the time of "Punky's Whips" so I'd have the affirmation. I and my husband were an open secret in high school but no one ever caused us grief over it simply because we weren't stereotypes in any way -- we were just simply dudes. To this day the word gay is semi-loaded to me, and I prefer to call my sexuality "dudes for me, gold star."
Sorry for my ignorance, but what does the gold star mean?
I don't remember all these lyrics off-hand, but I do remember (among other things) Zappa's narration about how gender bending publicity photos cause irreparable scars (which I assume means homosexual attraction) on the minds of young people like that cute little drummer.
Overall, I find women to be generally more attractive, but.. Young, red headed Terry Bozzio dressed only in a speedo and playing drums while flirting with the camera isn't uninteresting.
I love that song either way 😄
Bobby Brown was a huge hit here in Norway (!), which could happen here in the early 80s as most people had poorer English skills and couldn't quite make out what the lyrics meant. So because it was so huge, I tired of it ages and ages ago. It's my Dynamo Hum if you will. Every Norwegian of a certain age knows it, Zappa fan or not.
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 20, 2023, 04:19 PMThanks for The Village Of The Sun clip, Guybrush: that's a new one for me. It's a pity he didn't do a few more sincere autobiographical songs - but then of course he wouldn't be Zappa. I might as well wish that Van Morrison did more albums like The Grand Wazoo.
It's the only one I remember he cited the lyrics to in his autobiography and it's a little weird maybe that there hasn't been a studio version.. at least not that I know of. Although there is almost certainly studio recordings in the vault, I'd assume.
The live version from Live at the Roxy is absolutely great, though.
Another kinda autobiographical song is Let's make the Water Turn Black.
However, despite it being a fan favorite (I think), I'm not too keen on the version with lyrics and actually prefer instrumental versions like this.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 20, 2023, 05:44 PMSorry for my ignorance, but what does the gold star mean?
"Gold star" is a Polari expression (60's gay slang) that essentially means that het sex isn't an option. It's not out of disgust, it's just that I would never ever be able to perform in that scenario. The closest I've ever gotten to het sex is allowing a woman to watch a guy fuck me, and he and I were really into each other but her presence killed my dick to the point that it was impossible to rise to the occasion. Does that explain it succinctly? It's a coded expression for when homosexuality was illegal in the UK and the US and frequently prosecuted as gross indecency.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 20, 2023, 05:44 PMI don't remember all these lyrics off-hand, but I do remember (among other things) Zappa's narration about how gender bending publicity photos cause irreparable scars (which I assume means homosexual attraction) on the minds of young people like that cute little drummer.
There's an element of facetiousness in there. It's not the sexuality that's causing the irreparable scars, but the sales tactics of the rock groups that appear every 15 minutes. Basically he's roasting the glam scene for using androgyny as a sales tactic. Some people are completely androgynous, and that's not the focus of this. I'm reminded of one guy that I knew that when you got him at the kitchen table over coffee it was just two dudes talking, but the moment anyone he was on the make for came in, he was the world's biggest Barbra fan (and every other diva you can think of) and every accessory described in the song "He's So Gay" was in your face so that you didn't miss that he needed a good boning.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 20, 2023, 05:44 PMAnother kinda autobiographical song is Let's make the Water Turn Black.
^ :laughing: Not exactly what I was thinking of as a "sincere autobiographical song" , but it's just dripping with Zappa attitude.
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 17, 2023, 06:20 PMI appeared in Baby Snakes as well for about a second. I'm just simply saying "He rocks" when asked what I thought of him. It's in the audience sequence just before the Poodle Lecture.
^ Congrats on your celebrity status, lars - or at least celebrity-adjacent.
As it's being mentioned here, I listened, for the first time, to
He's So Gay which is clever and amusing, but together with Guybrush's
Water Turn Black they are reminders of why I like FZ's instrumental stuff more.
I think this is perhaps my favourite Zappa-plus-words song:-
What the Valley girl does to the English language just cracks me up every time:
"Barf me out!" :laughing:
EDIT: I wonder if you guys have a verdict on
Bongo Fury ? Given that it was a Beefheart/Zappa reunion, I found it really disappointing and only played it a couple of times. Have I missed something?
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 23, 2023, 03:02 PMI think this is perhaps my favourite Zappa-plus-words song:-
What the Valley girl does to the English language just cracks me up every time: "Barf me out!" :laughing:
This video is a perfect example of UMG destroying Frank's legacy. It's a footnote song. Written in about 20 minutes, and only because Frank wanted to hang out with Moon but didn't want to quit working. It's always "Valley Girl", "Mud Shark", "Muffin Man" .... and Frank did not pose without heavy sarcasm, and out of all the times I saw him, he more or less stood still or just walked around the stage. If it weren't for the squarepatch I wouldn't have thought it were supposed to be Frank.
Well, I just chose the "official video" clip on YouTube, imagining that Zappa had some input into how the song got presented, but perhaps he didn't. Now you mention it, the graphics don't have much stylistic connection to other things I've seen from, or about, Zappa.
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 23, 2023, 03:11 PMThis video is a perfect example of UMG destroying Frank's legacy. It's a footnote song. Written in about 20 minutes, and only because Frank wanted to hang out with Moon but didn't want to quit working. It's always "Valley Girl", "Mud Shark", "Muffin Man" .... and Frank did not pose without heavy sarcasm, and out of all the times I saw him, he more or less stood still or just walked around the stage. If it weren't for the squarepatch I wouldn't have thought it were supposed to be Frank.
In bold: that's interesting, but doesn't detract from it being a great, catchy song, imo. I don't disagree with your label of it as "a footnote song" either.
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 23, 2023, 03:35 PMWell, I just chose the "official video" clip on YouTube, imagining that Zappa had some input into how the song got presented, but perhaps he didn't. Now you mention it, the graphics don't have much stylistic connection to other things I've seen from, or about, Zappa.
Yeah, Frank will have been dead 30 years in 11 days. It's rather hard to believe but it's true. But no, that was totally UMG -- that's Frank as imagined by some record exec who would not be able to comprehend something like "Echidna's Arf (Of You)" or a good Mothers skronky abstract improvisation. Frank did make one MTV style video for "You Are What You Is" and amazingly enough it was aired on Nickelodeon's Teenager/Young Adults show
Livewire, despite the touchy subject matter and the Super Touchy Epithet -- which did NOT get blipped. It's fun but the "psychedelic chromakey" schtick in it gets old quick. Funnily enough it wasn't the subject matter or The Epithet that kept it from getting played -- it was what ultimately happens to Reagan in the storyboard.
A lot of people say I talk like a valley girl, which I kind of like in a way. So because of that I'm a bit more endeared to that song, haha.
It's a bit weird.. Valley Girl went by relatively unnoticed across the pond and up here. I'd been listening to Zappa for years before I even learned of its existence.
As a song, I don't care much for it, but I like the collab and the somewhat sad story behind it.
Quote from: Mrs. Waffles on Nov 23, 2023, 06:24 PMA lot of people say I talk like a valley girl, which I kind of like in a way. So because of that I'm a bit more endeared to that song, haha.
:thumb: No waaaay!! That's bitchen, Mrs. Waffles !!
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 23, 2023, 11:22 PM:thumb: No waaaay!! That's bitchen, Mrs. Waffles !!
Haha, I don't say obvious stuff like telling people to gag me with a spoon or anything. It's just an accent that comes out in certain words or phrases, like it's really obvious when I say "oh my gosh".
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 23, 2023, 03:02 PMEDIT: I wonder if you guys have a verdict on Bongo Fury ? Given that it was a Beefheart/Zappa reunion, I found it really disappointing and only played it a couple of times. Have I missed something?
The first quarter of it is Debra > Carolina. Even though the words are Frank's, Don may not have ever gotten better than this without the Magic Band. The guitar solo in Carolina pricked up my ears and I generally don't much like guitar solos. I keep returning to it, possibly because it's the last release before Herbienacht. First side is better than the second, but the monster slam is Cucamonga at the start of the second side.
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 24, 2023, 02:05 PMThe first quarter of it is Debra > Carolina. Even though the words are Frank's, Don may not have ever gotten better than this without the Magic Band. The guitar solo in Carolina pricked up my ears and I generally don't much like guitar solos. I keep returning to it, possibly because it's the last release before Herbienacht. First side is better than the second, but the monster slam is Cucamonga at the start of the second side.
Thanks for your description of
Bongo Fury, lars. You inspired me to give it another listen, and it sounds better to me now than I remembered:
Bursting with energy and ideas from the start, I thought Don's vocals on
Debra Kadabra were just too raw and grating, but he was much better on the other tracks. For me,
Poofter's Froth and
200 Years stood out as tracks where the collaboration between the Captain and FZ was most apparent: two old friends sharing their musical enthusiasm.
Cucamonga was pretty good, but I would't call it "the monster slam" of side two, I'm afraid, lars :( I'd reserve that title for
Advance Romance, the long loping blues track which has some of the album's best harmonica and guitar playing.
Is
Muffin Man highly regarded? I thought it was spoiled by FZ's narrative introduction story. That really suffered, imo, from coming immediately after Don's
Man With The Woman Head , inviting a comparison that ends badly for Frank.
Bottom Line: I'll be ´playing this album again because it's better than I remembered. Thanks, lars :thumb:
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 26, 2023, 03:32 PMThanks for your description of Bongo Fury, lars. You inspired me to give it another listen, and it sounds better to me now than I remembered:
Bursting with energy and ideas from the start, I thought Don's vocals on Debra Kadabra were just too raw and grating, but he was much better on the other tracks. For me, Poofter's Froth and 200 Years stood out as tracks where the collaboration between the Captain and FZ was most apparent: two old friends sharing their musical enthusiasm.
Cucamonga was pretty good, but I would't call it "the monster slam" of side two, I'm afraid, lars :( I'd reserve that title for Advance Romance, the long loping blues track which has some of the album's best harmonica and guitar playing.
Is Muffin Man highly regarded? I thought it was spoiled by FZ's narrative introduction story. That really suffered, imo, from coming immediately after Don's Man With The Woman Head , inviting a comparison that ends badly for Frank.
Bottom Line: I'll be ´playing this album again because it's better than I remembered. Thanks, lars :thumb:
"Advance Romance" is one of my least favourite Zappa songs, and this version is Just Too Long. That song should be about 5 minutes rather than 12, and it's much better in other places. "Man With the Woman Head" is a footnote track, and "Muffin man" -- well, that song took less time to write than it takes to play and it shows.
The reason "Cucamonga" is the grand slam is it was originally the finale to "Farther Oblivion" -- no not "Father O'blivion" -- that's a different song. "Farther Oblivion" is "Join The March" > "Steno Pool" > "Bebop Tango" > "Cucamonga", as heard on
Piquantique.
"Sam" is just typical Beefheart ranting, "Poofter's" was NOT a collaboration -- Don just sang it. "200 Years Old" is much better in the full 9-minute version from the acetate even though much of what's missing is (you guessed it) a guitar solo.
The winners here are Debra, Carolina, 200 Years, and Cucamonga. I would have nixed the rest of the 2nd side and in that space put the band version of "Orange Claw Hammer" (which still isn't released yet), "Portuguese Lunar Landing" (which still hasn't been released yet), and ended with "Stranded In The Jungle", which isn't a Zappa tune but it was a set item the next year.
Bongo Fury is one of the weaker Mothers-albums in my opinion. And it was released only months after One Size Fits All which is my favourite Zappa/Mothers album overall.
Advance Romance is the song I've listened to the most and it's a little interesting that it's more bluesy than most Zappa stuff.
^ Inspired by this thread, Guybrush, I dipped into
One Size Fits All for the first time over the weekend, with
San Ber'dino catching my attention as I'm looking for songs that hint at what Beefheart and Zappa had in common as they grew up in Lancaster. Another "autobiographical" song might be the title track of
Joe's Garage with its surprisingly straight-forward picture of young musicians hanging out and playing together.
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 26, 2023, 06:56 PM"Advance Romance" is one of my least favourite Zappa songs, and this version is Just Too Long. That song should be about 5 minutes rather than 12, and it's much better in other places. "Man With the Woman Head" is a footnote track, and "Muffin man" -- well, that song took less time to write than it takes to play and it shows.
I like that description lars, and if it's ok by you, I might open a thread to discover other songs of which the same may be said.
QuoteThe reason "Cucamonga" is the grand slam is it was originally the finale to "Farther Oblivion" -- no not "Father O'blivion" -- that's a different song. "Farther Oblivion" is "Join The March" > "Steno Pool" > "Bebop Tango" > "Cucamonga", as heard on Piquantique.
Thanks for the context about
Cucamonga - and as for
Poofter's, yeah I guessed that was a Zappa song - I was just using the word collaboration about them performing it together. Perhaps I should be using a different word, before I announce that
San Ber'dino is also a collab as Captain Beefheart guests on vocals at the end, I believe.
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 28, 2023, 12:59 AMI like that description lars, and if it's ok by you, I might open a thread to discover other songs of which the same may be said.
For all the great numbers Frank has, he had an awful lot of duds. "Mud Shark", "Scumbag", "Baby Take Your Teeth Out", "Frogs With Dirty Little Lips" -- all of these strike me as duds or as I think of them "footnote songs." There is one song that was a footnote song for me until I heard masterful live versions of it -- "Chunga's Revenge." That deserves a release in monster form because if you want to hear Zappa's band stretch out, that's the one. The problem with that song is that it's a jazzier number for the Hot Rats band and didn't fit with Flo & Eddie very well. The best version is the half-hour one from the Hot Rats band 1970.03.07 Olympia, Los Angeles, the same show with the only performance of "Twinkle Tits."
Don Vliet is only playing harmonica on OSFA, not singing as far as I know.
@Lisnaholic It's Johnny "Guitar" Watson who lends his very lively vocals to the ending of San Ber'dino 🙂
I also thought Joe's Garage sounded autobiographical in its description of rehearsing in a garage and annoying parents, but I believe that one is entirely made up.
Talking trivia, the cruelest joke on OSFA may be the mention of Chester's gorilla and the sounds she makes at the end of Florentine Pogen, the gorilla being a groupie who would be with Chester Thompson. I always wondered if she knew she was the gorilla..
Inca Roads is tremendous to me 🙂 And Sofa no. 2 is so much fun. Rest is great too!
Quote from: larsvsnapster on Nov 28, 2023, 03:57 AMDon Vliet is only playing harmonica on OSFA, not singing as far as I know.
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 28, 2023, 06:34 AM@Lisnaholic It's Johnny "Guitar" Watson who lends his very lively vocals to the ending of San Ber'dino 🙂
I also thought Joe's Garage sounded autobiographical in its description of rehearsing in a garage and annoying parents, but I believe that one is entirely made up.
Talking trivia, the cruelest joke on OSFA may be the mention of Chester's gorilla and the sounds she makes at the end of Florentine Pogen, the gorilla being a groupie who would be with Chester Thompson. I always wondered if she knew she was the gorilla..
Inca Roads is tremendous to me 🙂 And Sofa no. 2 is so much fun. Rest is great too!
Thanks for correcting me on
One Size Fits All, guys :thumb:
I'll check out those tracks you mention, Guybrush.
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 28, 2023, 04:18 PMThanks for correcting me on One Size Fits All, guys :thumb:
I'll check out those tracks you mention, Guybrush.
I'll repost the performance of Inca Roads interspersed with stop motion claymation that I posted on the first page 🙂
You get a good idea of what the band and performances were like at the height of The Mothers powers.
Also, how good is Ruth Underwood with that melodic percussion? ❤️ I wish I was a marimba.
Thanks for the re-post, Guybrush!
Quote from: Guybrush on Nov 28, 2023, 05:52 PMAlso, how good is Ruth Underwood with that melodic percussion? ❤️ I wish I was a marimba.
:laughing: Yeah, I think I'd also enjoy looking up to see Ruth Underwood in a halter-top, giving my ribs a massage with her mallets!
Very impressive that the band could pull off something so sophisticated live, but for listening pleasure, I think I prefer this instrumental cover version:-
Quote from: Lisnaholic on Nov 30, 2023, 02:05 AMThanks for the re-post, Guybrush!
:laughing: Yeah, I think I'd also enjoy looking up to see Ruth Underwood in a halter-top, giving my ribs a massage with her mallets!
Very impressive that the band could pull off something so sophisticated live, but for listening pleasure, I think I prefer this instrumental cover version:-
Impressive indeed and the lyrics are clever without being vulgar this time around. By the way, I believe Guacamole Queen was a taco food truck 🙂
Thanks for sharing that instrumental cover! It's not one I've heard, but there's a lot of covers and instrumental arrangements for Zappa songs and a lot of them are great. On page 1, I believe I posted a video of a trio playing Let's Make the Water Turn Black and it's so brilliant.
The music is challenging sometimes, but you might appreciate the album The Yellow Shark by Ensemble Modern. Zappa arranged his music for them and so was attached to it and it was one of the last things he did. It was released a month before his death in 1993.